98 replies to this topic

[John T Roberts]

Plans have been brought before the Historic & Cultural Landmarks Commission to convert the Fire Station No. 5 on Bryan Ave. to a hotel.  The building is designated as a Highly Significant Endangered Landmark.  Below is the staff report complete with drawings for the new hotel.

 

http://fortworthtexa...cb5c425de06.pdf

[Austin55]

John, this probably deserves it's own thread. Really interesting project!

 

Here's some of the renderings from the PDF,

 

 

[NThomas]

What a great proposal for incorporating in the former fire house building as the hotel lobby. Looks similar to the reuse with the Coca-Cola Building for the Highpoint apartments a few blocks away, and Firestone in downtown.

This would be only the third hotel built in Near Southside, correct?

[panthercity]

Thats where Black Eye Vodka is, are the shutting down?

[rriojas71]

Thats where Black Eye Vodka is, are the shutting down?

Well they may at least be moving. I wonder if they even know about this proposed project yet.

[Doohickie]

The most interesting aspect of the project to me is that they have a retail spot facing onto Crawford.  Right now South Main Village is building up on Main and Bryan, but with the exceptions of Shipping and Receiving, and Brik Venue, not too much along the streets east of Bryan.  Could this be a harbinger of future development on Crawford and blocks east?

[Austin55]

This would be only the third hotel built in Near Southside, correct?

 

There really aren't any right now. Two at Midtown (Forest Park & Rosedale) but not technically NSS. 

 

I know at least 3 proposals, the one on Magnolia, Elkhorn Union at Vickery & S Main, and another next to Katy Station at the same intersection. 

[renamerusk]

John, this probably deserves it's own thread. Really interesting project!

 

 

  The Hotel Thread might be a good location for a thread regarding this project.

[John T Roberts]

I hastily put it in the Southside Developments thread and then after Austin made the comment, I moved it to where it is now, as a separate topic.  This is a major project that has two components, so it will have its own discussion topic. 

[rriojas71]

This would be only the third hotel built in Near Southside, correct?

 
There really aren't any right now. Two at Midtown (Forest Park & Rosedale) but not technically NSS. 
 
I know at least 3 proposals, the one on Magnolia, Elkhorn Union at Vickery & S Main, and another next to Katy Station at the same intersection.

Possibly but doubtful IMO... only because the tracks are so near, but one can only hope it helps spread Eastward. What I really like about SoMa is that it is not focused on one thoroughfare like Magnolia which is awesome but makes things too spread out. It’s an easy walk to me but most people find the walk from say Ellerbe’s to Fixture to be too arduous of a walk, especially in the heat of the Summer.

[arch-image]

Really nice I think. It seems a good mix of old and new and blends together well. Also has some nice features with the screen wall type materials and big open curtain wall glass. T-6 came up with a solid plan  

[Austin55]

ST has an article out,

 

https://www.star-tel...e234924237.html

[John T Roberts]

The Historic & Cultural Landmarks Commission actually gave a Certificate of Appropriateness for the project with several conditions that were outlined by staff.  The article is not entirely correct in their dealing with that Commission.  I feel that staff had some very good concerns but they felt confident the items could be worked out.  Historic Fort Worth, Inc. asked for a continuance so the Commission could take another look at the project before final approval, but the developers are on a short time frame, and they felt they needed the approval to move forward.  The project still has to go before the Urban Design Commission. 

 

Many of our city meetings are available online for viewing.  If you would like to see this case, follow the link below and scroll through the cases.  This might give you an idea on how the HCLC works. 

 

www.fortworthgov.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=2&clip_id=3289

[Austin55]

Going before TIF board

 

 

Consideration of a Resolution to Approve a TIF Development Agreement with CanTex Southside,

LLC for Public Improvements associated with a Hotel and Retail Development Project at Crawford

St. and Tucker St. (Michael Brennan, TIF Administrator) 

 

[Austin55]

At tonights Near Southside Shindig there was a video looping in the lobby area showing renderings of this. It looks great! It's been toned down a lot from the renderings posted earlier in this thread. It will be called the Nobleman Hotel.

[Jeriat]

At tonights Near Southside Shindig there was a video looping in the lobby area showing renderings of this. It looks great! It's been toned down a lot from the renderings posted earlier in this thread. It will be called the Nobleman Hotel.

 

By "toned down", do you mean in design or... height? 

[arch-image]

I heard they had possibly switched Architects, maybe why it was "toned down". 

[Austin55]

It was a lot of grey brick. Looked really classy. I think Merriman Anderson (who are doing several other hotels) were the architects. I can try and post a pic later. Size was the same. 


Edit - bad pic

https://i.imgur.com/GI53d75.jpg

[renamerusk]

It was a lot of grey brick. Looked really classy. I think Merriman Anderson (who are doing several other hotels) were the architects. I can try and post a pic later. Size was the same. ....

 

Thanks for blasting out so much breaking news and info.
 

[Austin55]

FWBP has an article 

 

http://www.fortworth...esize=1200,64">

 

[panthercity]

FWBP has an article 
 
http://www.fortworth...esize=1200,64">
 

Now thats good news! Moving them out may be the best move. Also, the rendering looks really nice with all those mature trees!

[arch-image]

Glad to see it moving forward but have to say I Liked the original concept Type 6 Architects did much better.  The splashes of red was a nice touch as was the top floor restaurant/Bar was nice. I hope they are able to pull it off, I think this could spur some good growth in the area. 

[rriojas71]

Glad to see it moving forward but have to say I Liked the original concept Type 6 Architects did much better.  The splashes of red was a nice touch as was the top floor restaurant/Bar was nice. I hope they are able to pull it off, I think this could spur some good growth in the area.

Glad to see it moving forward but have to say I Liked the original concept Type 6 Architects did much better.  The splashes of red was a nice touch as was the top floor restaurant/Bar was nice. I hope they are able to pull it off, I think this could spur some good growth in the area.

I agree but like you I just like the potential of more growth and infill

[renamerusk]

Glad to see it moving forward but have to say I Liked the original concept Type 6 Architects did much better.  The splashes of red was a nice touch as was the top floor restaurant/Bar was nice. I hope they are able to pull it off, I think this could spur some good growth in the area. 

 

 The splash of red does seem to be an appropriate color palate for a former fire station.  I hope that the presence of red included somewhere.

[Austin55]

It's interesting that the new renderings don't seem to have a garage.

[renamerusk]

I always look for how a project handles parking and I too had notice the absence of a parking solution...maybe it will be below ground?

[rriojas71]

I always look for how a project handles parking and I too had notice the absence of a parking solution...maybe it will be below ground?

Im just speculating but a parking lot will probably be built on one of the adjacent vacant lots

[renamerusk]

 

I always look for how a project handles parking and I too had notice the absence of a parking solution...maybe it will be below ground?

Im just speculating but a parking lot will probably be built on one of the adjacent vacant lots

 

 

I believe that an adjacent parking lot would be a bad idea. 

 

Imagine walking to and from your car day or night, rain or shine; the security issue and the weather issue are real.

I hope that these issues would be apparent to MMA and Nobleman Hotel.

[arch-image]

I don't remember there ever being an underground parking. If they do adjacent maybe they will do valet. 

[renamerusk]

I actually could see something like this.  The hotel guests + employees need between 150-200 spaces.

 

h

 

This could also work for the parking needs of the proposed Hilton Gardens Inn, Jones @ 5th Streets. 

[rriojas71]

 

 

I always look for how a project handles parking and I too had notice the absence of a parking solution...maybe it will be below ground?

Im just speculating but a parking lot will probably be built on one of the adjacent vacant lots

 

 

I believe that an adjacent parking lot would be a bad idea. 

 

Imagine walking to and from your car day or night, rain or shine; the security issue and the weather issue are real.

I hope that these issues would be apparent to MMA and Nobleman Hotel.

 

There are currently several lots in the area so I think that is a bit extreme.  However, If security and weather walking to your car is an issue than the whole area has problems and nothing should be built here.  I like the idea of underground parking but that is really expensive to do and would probably make this project infeasible.

[renamerusk]

There are currently several lots in the area so I think that is a bit extreme.  However, If security and weather walking to your car is an issue than the whole area has problems and nothing should be built here.  I like the idea of underground parking but that is really expensive to do and would probably make this project infeasible.

 Extreme?  I have been in any number of buildings that sit atop underground parking; nothing extreme too them for me.

 

If you are a motel, sure park your car at the hotel door; no problem. 

 

But a boutique hotel is not a motel and I as a guest of a classier hospitality venue, I would have some concerns about walking in an area which I am not familiar with; I would also have a problem with my car being damaged or vandalized.  These are issues that the hotel needs to think through.  Is it known who owns or if the several lots are available to the hotel; and is that purely an assumption base upon what? 

 

It does not mean that nothing should be built here or in the area; that sounds even more extreme. It simply means that you need to have a think tank about surrounding the pros and cons.

[renamerusk]

 

I'm not good at comparing a tower to a 6-story building in terms of square footage   Looks to me, though, that 162 rooms cannot be crammed into a 6-story building on that size lot.  So there must have been a decision to reduce the number of rooms for the proposed Hilton Garden Inn....

 

I tend to think as it progresses you will see the room count come down as I agree John I don't see how you fit 162 in 6 stories on a 20k sf lot. I am looking at a 5 story right now with 129 rooms on it and the footprint of just the basic building ..... I would fully expect this to be  5 floors of wood on a 1st floor concrete podium with possible concrete parking below, although they could do a long term lease on spaces at something like the Carter Burgess garage to meet the need for parking and do Valet. 

 

 

 

....However, If security and weather walking to your car is an issue than the whole area has problems and nothing should be built here.  I like the idea of underground parking but that is really expensive to do and would probably make this project infeasible.

 Extreme?  I have been in any number of buildings that sit atop underground parking; nothing extreme too them for me.

 

If you are a motel, sure park your car at the hotel door; no problem. 

 

But a boutique hotel is not a motel and I as a guest of a classier hospitality venue, I would have some concerns about walking in an area which I am not familiar with; I would also have a problem with my car being damaged or vandalized.  These are issues that the hotel needs to think through....It does not mean that nothing should be built here or in the area; that sounds even more extreme. It simply means that you need to have a think tank about surrounding the pros and cons.

 

  Going back to ideas for parking, the below ground parking for these two projects makes for more practicality for each, the NH and HGI.

[roverone]

I expect that underground parking probably costs on the order of 1.5x more per space, and when it is an occupied building (instead of parking) above the underground parking, I could imagine that the supports for the above structure could reduce the efficiency of the below garage.

[FTWIK]

I expect that underground parking probably costs on the order of 1.5x more per space, and when it is an occupied building (instead of parking) above the underground parking, I could imagine that the supports for the above structure could reduce the efficiency of the below garage.

Generally speaking, surface parking costs ~$3,500.00/ stall and underground parking is around $14-$15,000.00/stall (both numbers excluding land costs). There is a desperate need for parking in that area as it starts to get denser, but underground is likely not the answer. 

[arch-image]

I was just going thru the submission from the original plans and it had a parking structure in the back that looks to be two levels. Counting rooms the project looks to be about 75 rooms so a 2 story garage is probably enough and could work as long as they can get rates to offset the extra cost. I think they will be in the rage of 120-135 for rates and with this already being upscale in the design it will be tough for a while until the area develops more so they could raise rates. All depends on how much equity they can bring quite honestly to make the numbers work and willingness to wait on their return for a while. Its an interesting deal that I really hopes goes as I think to will be a real generator for other development in the area. 

[renamerusk]

 

I expect that underground parking probably costs on the order of 1.5x more per space, and when it is an occupied building (instead of parking) above the underground parking, I could imagine that the supports for the above structure could reduce the efficiency of the below garage.

Generally speaking, surface parking costs ~$3,500.00/ stall and underground parking is around $14-$15,000.00/stall (both numbers excluding land costs). There is a desperate need for parking in that area as it starts to get denser, but underground is likely not the answer. 

 

 

 

I was just going thru the submission from the original plans and it had a parking structure in the back that looks to be two levels. Counting rooms the project looks to be about 75 rooms so a 2 story garage is probably enough and could work as long as they can get rates to offset the extra cost. I think they will be in the rage of 120-135 for rates and with this already being upscale in the design it will be tough for a while until the area develops more so they could raise rates. All depends on how much equity they can bring quite honestly to make the numbers work and willingness to wait on their return for a while. Its an interesting deal that I really hopes goes as I think to will be a real generator for other development in the area. 

I do appreciate the "art of the deal" which is being very important.  I think a well thought out scenario for the security and protection of guests and their car is right up there as being very important. 

 

If the below ground costs are prohibited, then level two should be considered for parking.   A hotel should never want to be in negligent litigation with a guest because it did not provide the fundamental blocks of safety.  Hampton Suites has set the standard.

 

I have the same concerns with Hilton Gardens Inn (HGI) and the Ramada Inn (RI) projects on the drawing board.  Leasing space in the Cowtown Parking Garage might be an option for RI.  HGI plans are getting shakier as more details become available. 

 

How are  A/C Marriott and Sinclair handling their guest parking; valet?,

[arch-image]

 

If the below ground costs are prohibited, then level two should be considered for parking.   A hotel should never want to be in negligent litigation with a guest because it did not provide the fundamental blocks of safety.  Hampton Suites has set the standard.

 

I have the same concerns with Hilton Gardens Inn (HGI) and the Ramada Inn (RI) projects on the drawing board.  Leasing space in the Cowtown Parking Garage might be an option for RI.  HGI plans are getting shakier as more details become available. 

 

How are  A/C Marriott and Sinclair handling their guest parking; valet?,

 

 

I am not sure on the AC but I Know on the SInclair he was originally going to valet over to the Hilton Annex but he made a deal on a lot or a garage closer to the Hotel hence he put the Annex up for sale as he didn't really need it. 

[Austin55]

I'm not sure the status of the Hotel (which I'd last heard last summer was killed by the pandemic) but Black Eye is leaving the fire station. Future location is "tbd". Maybe the hotel is back on the drawing board with the recovery now in full swing?

 

https://www.instagra.../p/CULJ-hADbNk/

[Jeriat]

I'm not sure the status of the Hotel (which I'd last heard last summer was killed by the pandemic) but Black Eye is leaving the fire station. Future location is "tbd". Maybe the hotel is back on the drawing board with the recovery now in full swing?

 

https://www.instagra.../p/CULJ-hADbNk/

Really hope they stay in the Near Southside.

Not like there's a lack of space...

[arch-image]

I'm not sure the status of the Hotel (which I'd last heard last summer was killed by the pandemic) but Black Eye is leaving the fire station. Future location is "tbd". Maybe the hotel is back on the drawing board with the recovery now in full swing?

 

https://www.instagra.../p/CULJ-hADbNk/

 

As of a couple weeks ago was told this is dead which is sad cause it was a cool project

[Austin55]

The old fire station and the block that it sits on is for sale.

http://www.loopnet.c...isting/24416075

[txbornviking]

The old fire station and the block that it sits on is for sale.

http://www.loopnet.c...isting/24416075

 

TAD lists market value at $910,000 which really seems like a bargain
I personally think it'd be very interested to track the discrepancies, if they exist between TAD value and sell/listing pricing

[JBB]

I've always been told that TAD's values very seldom represent the true market value of a property.  TAD's value for my house is $50k less than what I paid for it 2 years ago and at least $100k less than what I could get for it if I sold it now.

[Austin55]

Take two coming up.

From TIF #4 agenda.

 

C. Consideration of a Resolution to Approve TIF Development Agreement with Bedford Lodging, LLC for Public Improvements Associated with a Hotel Incorporating Historic Fire Station 5 at Bryan Ave. and E. Tucker St. (Michael Brennan, TIF Administrator)

[Austin55]

New rendering. The signage does retain the "Nobleman" name, so perhaps this is still the same group. The signage also implies it could be part of Hilton's Tapestry Collection. 

 

[AndyN]

Interesting project. Contract includes scanning the existing building exterior.

[Austin55]

Additional rendering from UDC docket

 

[Urbndwlr]

Hope that isnt some silly "stone" pattern.  Should just keep it simple and use brick as masonry material and not try to get cute.

[John T Roberts]

I'm sure it is just the rendering software creating that effect.