147 replies to this topic

[rriojas71]

Ah, you're probably right. The Novel RIno had a construction cost of about $180M, so with them being required to invest at least $100M in the Fort Worth site, I guess we shouldn't get our hopes up for anything that'll change the skyline.

Just being realistic because I work in commercial real estate and know some things about construction costs and speculative construction but I'm always down for being surprised.   The thing that drives the point home to me would be that they only 2 high rises I saw were in NYC.  The other buildings are low rise and mainly in Denver which I think would be a better vision to what they would build because Denver is more comparable to FW than NYC is.

[Austin55]

This was in the Library Advisory Board meeting agenda, but it was cancelled. 

"4. Central Library & Capital Projects Update"

https://www.fortwort...sory-board-2023

[JBB]

Thats great news. That is a prime piece of real estate.

[TLA]

This is exciting. Dart Interests’ US portfolio looks small, recent, but high end. Their company in the Cayman Islands has an extensive history of mixed-use development. If this comes to fruition, Dart and Goff will have huge impacts to downtown this decade.

With the deep pockets of the company, here’s to hoping we get beautiful towers added to the skyline.

[rriojas71]

Hopefully this is good news but we have seen several proposals in the past that never materialized into anything but a couple of renderings then as quickly as the news came nothing was heard of again.  I hate being pessimistic because it's against my nature but we've been burned before.

[Austin55]

Thanks Austin55, I wanted to get this out to the Forum for discussion. Pretty exciting!:
 
Biz Journal reports: Two new towers might be on the horizon in downtown Fort Worth:
https://www.bizjourn...-interests.html
 

 

I'm counting about 27-28 floors in that rendering. Deco 969 territory. And we can't see the top. I'm sure the vagueness is intentional, but still interesting.  

 

Hopefully this is good news but we have seen several proposals in the past that never materialized into anything but a couple of renderings then as quickly as the news came nothing was heard of again.  I hate being pessimistic because it's against my nature but we've been burned before.

 

I think that there's two big differences now. A. Other developers are pulling off highrise residential and B. Dart is a big name that can get stuff done. 

 

____________________

 

There's one other small rendering in the article, but it does not show much. It does seem that Dart is planning on integrating the Library into the new development. 

 

 

There's another great line in the article if you are able to get past the paywall. The developer says something along the lines of momentum building in Fort Worth as opposed to just being in Dallas and it's northern suburbs. 

 

It also mentions they are working w/ local economic development on adding an office component to land a corporate hq. Maybe the mystery NW company?

[elpingüino]

It does seem that Dart is planning on integrating the Library into the new development. 
 

That was part of their arrangement with the city:

The City contracted with Jones Lang Lasalle Brokerage and the Property was listed for 160 days with a multiple-listing service. The listing required prospective buyers to develop the Property as a mixed-use project including office space and high-rise residential, to provide a lease of space with an option to purchase for a new library within the redeveloped property, and a minimum total capital investment of $100,000,000.00.

[Urbndwlr]

Thanks for the summary. That bizjournal paywall is sort of a headache. First time, I couldnt read it, then second time on my phone I could read the article and screen grabbed it and I noticed two renderings. On my laptop, I could only grab one image URL. I did check Darts website and ran a sitewide search for a press release but didnt see one yet. Should be exciting to see if theyve released more renderings.

I thought that info ramjet posted suggested the corporate relocation from NW was slated for over by A&M or did I just dream that? Maybe it was in the super long FWInc Goff article (I still havent finished reading.)

You are correct.  JG has mentioned that a couple of times - that he's working on it.  Doesnt mean it is a done deal but sounded more like an example of what can happen. 

 

Good find on that rendering.  Would guess the library is potentially part of the new building?  Kind of like when the W Hotel & Residences in downtown Austin were negotiated - wrapped in the economic negotiations was the ACL theater.   I havent followed  the story for the library site - whether including the library is on the table or not.

[Eastsider817]

It’s going to be tall. From the rendering It looks like the library sits at the base with the high rise section above. This might actually surpass the Burnet plaza as Fort Worth tallest. At any rate we’re going to get at least one tall building out of this, which is welcome news.

[rriojas71]

It’s going to be tall. From the rendering It looks like the library sits at the base with the high rise section above. This might actually surpass the Burnet plaza as Fort Worth tallest. At any rate we’re going to get at least one tall building out of this, which is welcome news.

A new tallest would be welcomed news to everyone on the forum.  It is time.

[rriojas71]

 

 

Hopefully this is good news but we have seen several proposals in the past that never materialized into anything but a couple of renderings then as quickly as the news came nothing was heard of again.  I hate being pessimistic because it's against my nature but we've been burned before.

 

I think that there's two big differences now. A. Other developers are pulling off highrise residential and B. Dart is a big name that can get stuff done. 

 

 

It also mentions they are working w/ local economic development on adding an office component to land a corporate hq. Maybe the mystery NW company?

 

Yes that is true Austin.  I am a member of the FW club and run into leaders with DTFWinc and other business people in FW and they keep talking about a new wave of interest coming into the city from developers that are seriously looking at FW for deals and opportunities.

 

Also, wouldn't it be awesome if the office component could land that mystery company and said company would look at creating in DT FW something along the lines of what Amazon did to the South Lake Union area in Seattle?

[John T Roberts]

I look forward to this redevelopment.  I'm hoping they will fill up the entire two block site and build two towers. 

[Jeriat]

 

 

 

 

 

I'm still trying to figure out which angle this is... 

[Jeriat]

Maybe W3rd and Taylor looking west?

I think it's the extra "towers" in the render that's throwing me off.

[roverone]

I'm always concerned that they will give these projects a haircut like that, but they did use language about "towers".

 

I don't understand what takes to put a finger on the scale of building taller (and I expect it is mostly other longer term economic reasons), but maybe the city could figure out ways to help their part of the burden: have a special program that for the next 5 or 7 years says that there are no permit / other fees for anything above floor 15 or floor 20, and maybe change the way taxing works only for those upper floors.

[johnfwd]

I hope two tall towers are constructed on this site.  But I'm wondering if it's a good idea to integrate the central library--a public institution--into an office/multifamily development project.  The public/private mix is what concerns me.  Anyone know if this kind of combination exists with tower dimensions in other cities?

[JBB]

Just out of curiosity, what is so concerning about the library being in a mixed use building?

[Jeriat]

Just out of curiosity, what is so concerning about the library being in a mixed use building?

Yeah.

It would kill two birds...

[FunkyTownTay]

This project would be of significant size:

[[The listing required prospective buyers to develop the Property as a mixed-use project including office space and high-rise residential, to provide a lease of space with an option to purchase for a new library within the redeveloped property, and a minimum total capital investment of $100,000,000.00.]]

 

 

Just out of curiosity, what is so concerning about the library being in a mixed use building?

 

For me, the concern would be that the lease option would not adequately protect the interests of the taxpayers (e.g. maybe a reasonable 10-year lease is followed up by an unreasonable rent increase.) Or that the purchase option could turn into some sort of boondoggle.

 

It seems like it could create space for shady dealings between developers and the city. I'm not very knowledgeable about commercial leasing, but I guess the hope would be that this would be something like a 99-year lease and that tax incentives would end up being the "rent payment."

[JBB]

That's certainly a legitimate concern.  The lease-purchase part of this sounds like a project made for the city to screw up.

[johnfwd]

I'm going to stay optimistic, but let's see what happens once the "honeymoon" is over and they've fully consummated the deal with the City and different groups are allowed a voice in the design.  My underlying fear would be the design-by-committee effect takes hold, they gather input from too many groups and stakeholders about the Library portion of the deal and then things get muddied up, delayed or derailed on top of changing market conditions.  I wonder what sort of "out" Dart has written into this deal, if any? 

 

What I have liked about Deco 969 / Southern Land Co, is they seemed to go into it with a solid plan, they pulled the trigger and they executed just like they've done on several other projects.  Seeing is believing but I don't want to poo-poo this before it even has time to develop.  We've already seen how some bigger projects like the Resia residential redesign on 1000 Jones and the Convention Center Expansion have been impacted by market conditions, escalation etc and those seem to be several steps ahead in the design process.

My concern about the public/private mix is a response to the above opinion that too many stakeholders may put a crimp on the project developer's design for a tall tower.  Also, public institutionalists and private entrepreneurs tend to clash when it comes to marketing strategies.

[JBB]

Take this with a grain of salt: I saw a Twitter comment (it was in a thread on a contentious political topic so I won't link to it) saying that the library will be closed by this summer.

[rriojas71]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm still trying to figure out which angle this is... 

 

I think this is the corner of 2nd and Taylor looking south.  The building in the background is the Carnegie

[Urbndwlr]

 

The city needed a new city hall and a new central library. One of my disappointments with their city hall decision is that this seemed like an opportunity to create a grand civic space for these and other functions. Instead, for city hall they grab what has to be one of the largest (and newest) available chunks of contiguous Class A office space - in a city that's trying to attract corporate relos - and taking it off the tax rolls.

 

Funny that in FW 20-years old is still considered new office space.  An office tower is pretty much good for one thing: an office tower.

 

Counterpoint:  if Class A office space only has a 15 year shelf life, that's a failure of design, construction and/or maintenance.  If a building is located, designed, built and operated in a first class manner, it should be able to remain a Class A office building for 40+ years.  Especially since we're entering an era when practically no new office buildings will be built.

[Austin55]

The last day of the Downtown Library will be June 30.

 

https://fortworthgov...93-A6B7D389A004

[TLA]

I thought the same thing. Also, looks like they decided to terminate the lease early.

From what Austin quoted on page 1:
Upon closing, Dart has agreed to lease the Property back to the City for a one-year term with an option to extend for an additional year... The City and Dart agreed to a lease buy-out fee equal to the pro-rated rent amount left for the term with property taxes being paid by the City in full.

[Crestline]

What?  I thought this was the whole plan?  I feel a little bamboozled.    

 

"The new downtown library will not be housed in the new Dart Industries development."

 

Maybe it's for the best, given the concerns we expressed earlier this year in this thread about the proposed public-private mix of uses in the new building. 

 

I still think it would be cool to relocate the downtown library into the old city hall building; I wonder if that's possible. 

[rriojas71]

 

The last day of the Downtown Library will be June 30.

 

https://fortworthgov...93-A6B7D389A004

 

What?  I thought this was the whole plan?  I feel a little bamboozled.    

 

"The new downtown library will not be housed in the new Dart Industries development."

 

I thought strongly about this when it was mentioned as being part of the plan and thought that it didn't sound feasible especially if this is going to be a higher end development.  The amount of Homeless people who camp out inside and on the outside of Public Libraries is probably the reason why they abandoned that portion of the project.  However, if they were given some incentives based on having the library a part of the plan then I say we either remove those incentives or have them live up to the expectation they promised.

[rriojas71]

Maybe it can go into the old City Hall?

[Jeriat]

Maybe it can go into the old City Hall?

Which one...?

[Crestline]

I still think it would be cool to relocate the downtown library into the old city hall building; I wonder if that's possible. 

Maybe it can go into the old City Hall?

Which one...?

 

The one and only!

 

[Doohickie]

Think big:  The old T&P Warehouse.  As a warehouse, if the structure is sound it should be more than able to handle the weight of the books.  (Maybe the recent structural inspection is linked to the change of direction?)

[rriojas71]

Think big:  The old T&P Warehouse.  As a warehouse, if the structure is sound it should be more than able to handle the weight of the books.  (Maybe the recent structural inspection is linked to the change of direction?)

Thinking Big does not include the T&P Warehouse because it is privately owned by someone who has shown little interest in actually developing the property.  

[Doohickie]

Yep, I get it, but the city structural inspection might indicate a change of direction.

 

 

I can dream, can't I?

[rriojas71]

Yep, I get it, but the city structural inspection might indicate a change of direction.

 

 

I can dream, can't I?

Sure.  i will dream with you.

[JBB]

Can't remember if it was here or elsewhere, but I've questioned before if the library needs to be so large.  With the emergence of electronic resources, there's a lot of opportunity to trim space.  When I took some classes at UNT Dallas several years ago, the library was essentially a computer lab.

[Jeriat]

 

I still think it would be cool to relocate the downtown library into the old city hall building; I wonder if that's possible. 

Maybe it can go into the old City Hall?

Which one...?

 

The one and only!

 

 

 

So... two things:

- on a personal note, I'd like for this to be demolished and used for highrise/garage space. 

and;

- There may be a case in which this space may be too big for the library, as well. I think Austin had an older post here that referenced this space as a potential library or one of the empty lots next to it, but can't find it. 

But I'll throw something out there. Is this still vacant? Because every time I walk by, those upper floors still look empty, to me. Maybe this could be a temporary library, just as long as you-know-who doesn't have a problem with one of her (unnecessary) art galleries on the 1st floor being replaced with something more, you know... useful.  

 

Man, I've really been trying to find uses for The Cassidy a lot on this forum.

[rriojas71]

At the Cassidy location, the library would be in a high traffic area and because the library will always draw in the Homeless I just don't think the city will go for that.  It's also a privately owned building that they city would have to spend money on to lease.  The current City Hall, not Pier 1, is already a public use structure and is owned by the city.  It just makes more sense to me that the library could go in it.  It already looks Library-ish and with the open atrium it fills like it would be a no-brainer.

[Austin55]

I think the central lobby of the current City Hall would make an excellent library, it just feels right. That said, I have to agree with the above and say that it seems silly to sell off the library becuase the land is too valuable and the building too dumpy, when the same could be said for the City Hall site. Unless there's some sort of strong preservation movement that steps up and stops the Edward Durell Stone-designed City Hall from being demolished.
 

I think a really cool location would be at the Northeast corner of Commerce and 14th, where the current Convention Center Garage is. At that location, you could tie it in with A&M/UTAFW, and maybe work out a parking arrangement with a new hotel development that could be built to the North. 

[JBB]

Is the city still interested in selling the current city hall?  Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly that they have said they're still going to need the space.

[Austin55]

I thought it was going to be the new PD Central Division HQ. 

[Urbndwlr]

At the Cassidy location, the library would be in a high traffic area and because the library will always draw in the Homeless I just don't think the city will go for that.  It's also a privately owned building that they city would have to spend money on to lease.  The current City Hall, not Pier 1, is already a public use structure and is owned by the city.  It just makes more sense to me that the library could go in it.  It already looks Library-ish and with the open atrium it fills like it would be a no-brainer.

Good point about the appeal to homeless residents of library restrooms. 

While I've never experienced homelessness, I'd guess the main issue is having a clean, reliably open and available RR, and places to sit peacefully.

So, why not provide a really good substitute for the services/facilities needed by those who lack housing?  One that provides even better facilities w/ features that really take into account the needs of those who are spending lots of time outside?  Realize this wouldnt be a full resource center necessarily but perhaps pleasant places to sit, read, safely change clothes, maybe even do a bit of laundry (lots of options could add).  Likely would have to somehow avoid sleeping areas or would become shelter.  And would require surveilance and supervision to make sure stays clean enough.  Could take this to another thread.

[ramjet]

 

At the Cassidy location, the library would be in a high traffic area and because the library will always draw in the Homeless I just don't think the city will go for that.  It's also a privately owned building that they city would have to spend money on to lease.  The current City Hall, not Pier 1, is already a public use structure and is owned by the city.  It just makes more sense to me that the library could go in it.  It already looks Library-ish and with the open atrium it fills like it would be a no-brainer.

Good point about the appeal to homeless residents of library restrooms. 

While I've never experienced homelessness, I'd guess the main issue is having a clean, reliably open and available RR, and places to sit peacefully.

So, why not provide a really good substitute for the services/facilities needed by those who lack housing?  One that provides even better facilities w/ features that really take into account the needs of those who are spending lots of time outside?  Realize this wouldnt be a full resource center necessarily but perhaps pleasant places to sit, read, safely change clothes, maybe even do a bit of laundry (lots of options could add).  Likely would have to somehow avoid sleeping areas or would become shelter.  And would require surveilance and supervision to make sure stays clean enough.  Could take this to another thread.

 

Great idea, Urbndwlr!  There's actually a well developed precedent for this idea in San Antonio called Haven for Hope. I got to tour Haven for Hope a couple of times in my career with Travis County.  Austin just didn't have an acceptable tract of land to replicate the concept that wasn't already dubbed for by developers.  I could think of a couple of places in Fort Worth.

 

https://www.havenforhope.org

[Crestline]

Good point about the appeal to homeless residents of library restrooms. 

While I've never experienced homelessness, I'd guess the main issue is having a clean, reliably open and available RR, and places to sit peacefully.

So, why not provide a really good substitute for the services/facilities needed by those who lack housing?  One that provides even better facilities w/ features that really take into account the needs of those who are spending lots of time outside?  Realize this wouldnt be a full resource center necessarily but perhaps pleasant places to sit, read, safely change clothes, maybe even do a bit of laundry (lots of options could add).  Likely would have to somehow avoid sleeping areas or would become shelter.  And would require surveilance and supervision to make sure stays clean enough.  Could take this to another thread.

Great idea, Urbndwlr!  There's actually a well developed precedent for this idea in San Antonio called Haven for Hope. I got to tour Haven for Hope a couple of times in my career with Travis County.  Austin just didn't have an acceptable tract of land to replicate the concept that wasn't already dubbed for by developers.  I could think of a couple of places in Fort Worth.

 

https://www.havenforhope.org

 

Are you two advocating for a new downtown library facility to provide expanded homeless shelter services? If so, I don't agree. I think that both functions are legitimate aims of city government but that they're not compatible with each other in a single structure. 

[ramjet]

Just to clarify, I'm not advocating a library/homeless center partnership.  I brought up Haven for Hope because it is a complex that meets homeless people where they are.  If they just want a safe place to pitch a tent outdoors, that space is available.  It has clean restrooms, medical clinics, even boarding spaces and vets for pets.  If someone is ready to move into housing, it has graduated levels of programming that aim to place homeless people ultimately into permanent supportive housing, which is on-site.  Something like that would not be feasible on the library site or in conjunction with a new library site.  I just brought it up as an alternative because of the notion that our downtown library apparently has become a place for the homeless to access clean rest rooms and have resting places.

[johnfwd]

Here's an update from Fort Worth Inc.

 

https://fortworthinc...2026E7643790G2W

[johnfwd]

 

Here's an update from Fort Worth Inc.

 

https://fortworthinc...2026E7643790G2W

 

"Cooke said the city has looked at everything from 12,000 square feet to 200 square feet,"

 

I wonder if this is a typo and they meant 200,000 SQFT?  200 SQFT is the size of a 14'x14' bedroom or office.  It's literally just a desk and a single computer sitting in a small storefront in Sundance Square....'here's your downtown library folks....as you can see, we've downsized.'

 

I can't understand why the city would close the library without having a new location to open for patrons? I'm guessing the city got a purchase offer from Dart the city couldn't refuse.

 

Also, just an observation, if the current library is demolished, will that include the sidewalk that has the imprinted names of donors?

[JBB]

I would assume they meant 20,000, not 200.  Just a typo.

[JBB]

And since they will fail to maintain it, by 2025, it will need $10,000 in repairs and a public/private partnership to survive.

[jmcgee]

lost in all this is the FWTV operation housed in the northwest corner of the library shell.  In there, a studio, editing suites, fiber connections to to Convention Center, Will Rogers, Spectrum, current Cit Hall.Storage of equipment used fro remote events,  

 

Very little planning has gone into moving this operation.  At this stage, from what I hear, it will go off the air when FWTV is moved out.  Not enough time to engage a integrator to move all of this. 

 

And this was a purpose built space, what that operation will get will be unused office space somewhere.