40 replies to this topic

[BlueMound]

Could wealthy FW neighborhoods secede from FWISD and create their own version of Highland Park ISD ?

Having a great public school district is vital for the future of FW.
Corporate re-locations especially consider the public school system.
I think the private school tuition model (annual cost increases ad infinitum) is just as doomed as the college tuition model.

https://www.the74mil...ed-segregation/

[CFerguson]

Home schooling is an alternative to both public and private.

 

https://www.classica...versations.com/

[roverone]

Of course, the exact opposite would help a great deal also -- partially or completely annex all of the ISDs that overlap Fort Worth city limits into FWISD.

[CFerguson]

Often in Benbrook we hear, 'Why can't we have our own ISD?' and the answer is, it would be prohibitively expensive to separate after all these years.

 

This is part of the larger issue of segregation via sheer distance, a.k.a., sprawl.  Are we going to bus students twenty miles?  One will never see on the sidewalks of Benbrook (or the place you live, most likely) the kind of population we encounter under the Mixmaster bridges on Lancaster, and I say this without judging them.

 

Admittedly, there is no simple solution to the under-performance of Fort Worth schools.  Most parents, however, if given the option, will choose a disciplined environment for their children, which many times is lacking in the homes of all socioeconomic groupings.

[Volare]

good topic for discussion!

[renamerusk]

If you accept that public health ought to be provided to the needed and that the essential public health is good for everyone who inhabits area, then the public should consider a Single County School District.  Administrative costs would be centralized and resources could then go to neighborhoods where there are the greatest needs.

[roverone]

Since schools are such a fundamental aspect of a city, it has never made any sense to me that after a city gets to a certain population, the city's land isn't forced to one ISD -- for sure, if there are smaller communities or rural areas around the city limits, those areas should be added into the attendance zone / tax base of the larger adjacent city ISD until they perhaps grow into something separate.

 

As indicated in these other posts, tax dollars of many City of Fort Worth citizens feed into alternate ISDs and do little to help support the city's economically disadvantaged schools.  I understand that often that is on purpose, but I think it should be said out loud every time we as a city annex more land or permit a development that will be in a different ISD.

 

I suppose this could be fixed without changing ISD boundaries with very forceful funding equalization for adjacent ISDs -- a sort of hyper-local Robin Hood scheme.

 

I know people don't want to hear this, and they want to be able to live in an isolated area far away from anyone disadvantaged, but this is not a problem that fixes itself by magic, it spirals the wrong direction.

[renamerusk]

1........As indicated in these other posts, tax dollars of many City of Fort Worth citizens feed into alternate ISDs and do little to help support the city's economically disadvantaged schools.  I understand that often that is on purpose, but I think it should be said out loud every time we as a city annex more land or permit a development that will be in a different ISD.....

 

2. .....I know people don't want to hear this, and they want to be able to live in an isolated area far away from anyone disadvantaged, but this is not a problem that fixes itself by magic, it spirals the wrong direction.

 

 Two points that I have very little or no objections to.

 

 1.  Whether intentionally or not, it is now clearly the time to review the practice of annexing more undeveloped land for new development other than for commercial purposes.  Alliance as a commercial development is one thing, but including residential development siphons away resources that could be used to support better schools in the central city. 

    

 Correct me if I have it wrong, but receipts collected in Fort Worth and Tarrant County first go to the State where it is redistributed back to Tarrant County and to the other counties throughout Texas.  So why can't it be collected by counties and the redistribution be redistributed locally.

 

2.  Code enforcement and the campaign to demolish dilapidated structures has to broaden.  Incentives the real estate market to build an assortment of new affordable and efficient housing.to encourage first time buyers who are young and who will enroll their children in safe and quality neighborhoods. There will always be high end quality residential neighborhoods; what is need are the first time quality neighborhoods found typically in suburbs but could be found in the central city with a smart strategy.
 

[Big Frog II]

Like San Antonio and Houston our city is spread way beyond our local ISD boundaries.  The difference is that I don't hear about the San Antonio or Houston ISDs as being a detriment to those cities attracting business.

[renamerusk]

Something to consider -

 

Size in Square Miles by County/City: Houston, San Antonio, Dallas and Fort Worth - Harris (1,772/637), Bexar (1,256/465), Dallas (909/385) and Tarrant (902/350)

 

 It is evident that both Houston and San Antonio have a much larger area to spread out in to bring into their tax base than either Dallas or Fort Worth.  Also Dallas and Tarrant County are chucked full of cities that hem in both Dallas and Fort Worth, whereas in Harris and Bexar, Houston and San Antonio take the lion share of their county and its economic base.

 

What is generally the case for Dallas and Fort Worth, the surrounding cities control a higher share of the local economy.  I do think that if the tax base for Fort Worth and Dallas was comparable to that for Houston and San Antonio, their school district would be much richer.

 

But back to the underlying assumption.  Neighborhoods should not secede from Fort Worth, instead, Fort Worth should improve its neighborhoods.  Legally, I don't think that neighborhoods can secede, but it is much easier to do things that in time will make all neighborhoods desirable places to live and attend school.

[CFerguson]

A single ISD for the entire county would create its own problems with bureaucratic detachment.  Can you imagine how the folks of Grapevine or Crowley would react to an ISD where decisions are made in Fort Worth?

 

Should the FWISD be split into smaller units?  I don't know ... just asking.  There are about 20 ISDs in Tarrant already.  Why not 40?  Or 60?

[roverone]

The situation in Fort Worth is so goofy that the new Overton Park Elementary (i.e. Tanglewood 2) is going up on land that is not in the FWISD.

[Big Frog II]

The situation in Fort Worth is so goofy that the new Overton Park Elementary (i.e. Tanglewood 2) is going up on land that is not in the FWISD.

I don't think that is correct.  According to the Crowley ISD map, their boundary ends at the First Command property.

[roverone]

Thank you for catching my mistake -- I was off by a block -- the elementary touches the Crowley ISD, but is in District 5 of the FWISD.

 

It does still seem to be an odd gerrymandering of the ISD when Crowley comes inside the loop with that little peninsula.

[Big Frog II]

Thank you for catching my mistake -- I was off by a block -- the elementary touches the Crowley ISD, but is in District 5 of the FWISD.

 

It does still seem to be an odd gerrymandering of the ISD when Crowley comes inside the loop with that little peninsula.

That gerrymandering occurred when Fort Worth traded land to build Southwest High School with Crowley.  FWISD was the big loser on this since Hulen Mall and other shopping centers and office buildings ended up in the Crowley ISD tax base.

[elpingüino]

Back to the original question of this thread, about parts of Fort Worth ISD splitting off to create a new district. Texas requires voter approval by both voters in the proposed new district *and* by voters in the rest of the existing district(s), with at least 25% turnout.

Here is the state law governing school district creation, specifically section 13.104.
https://statutes.cap...D.13.htm#13.101

The new school district is created only if the proposition receives:

(1) a majority of the votes in the territory to be detached; and

(2) a majority of the votes in the remaining territory in each district from which property is to be detached

[bclaridge]

Not going to happen I would say.  The tax base is too valuable for FWISD to just let it go, and it may be hard to get approval in the remainder of the FWISD for the Tanglewood/Overton Park area (or Benbrook) to split off, especially if such a move is seen as benefiting (primarily) wealthy people.  Let's assume for just a second that a hypothetical "Overton Park ISD" were to form out of that portion of the FWISD consisting of the attendance zones for both Tanglewood and the (soon-to-open) Overton Park elementary schools.  There are no middle or high schools within this area, so the new ISD would have to construct their own new facilities, or compensate FWISD for educating their students at the middle and high school level.  This latter scenario is exactly what led to the dissolution of Benbrook's former school district in 1962, as the need to compensate FWISD took up too much of the budget, though it is important to note that Benbrook was rural at the time.  Despite being carved out of a residentially-wealthy area, such a district would face financial challenges in the beginning, especially given the need to construct a new middle and high school (including affluent locals who would be demanding state-of-the art facilities comparable to Carroll ISD). 

A more practical Scenario B, which would avoid the need for new facility construction, would involve creating the new ISD out of the Paschal HS attendance zone.  This would also alleviate concerns about a new district perpetuating socioeconomic inequality, as there are significant areas of lower-income students in the Paschal zone southeast of TCU (Alice Contreras Elementary zone) and just west of I-35W (DeZavala/E.M. Daggett/George Clarke elementary zones) and would thus be more palatable to the remainder of FWISD, though in the minds of Tanglewood/Overton Park voters this would defeat the purpose of the new district (and including liberal Fairmount in the new district would probably be its own issue, given FWISD has held socially-progressive policies relative to other area school districts, and most Tanglewood/Overton Park voters would probably want the new district to take a more conservative stance).

 

That said, there is a virtual exclave of FWISD (connected only over land that is part of the military base) over Lake Worth itself that would probably be better served by surrounding districts.  Primarily residences along the Lake Worth lakefront (or nearby) seem to be affected by this, and they are currently assigned to Waverly Park ES/Leonard MS/Western Hills HS, which is quite a long drive by FWISD standards.  It seems to date from a past era when FWISD boundaries corresponded with Fort Worth city limits, as the FWISD/city boundaries in this area almost line up exactly.

One thing I would like to see, though, involving higher education, would be to amend the law defining Tarrant County College District's service area to include all of Northwest ISD (including those parts in Denton/Wise counties).  For instance, Dallas County Community Colleges' service area includes all of Carrollton-Farmers Branch ISD (even those areas outside Dallas County), and given the growth within NISD boundaries, it would make sense to unify them under one community college district; currently NISD is split between 3 community college districts: TCC in Tarrant County, Weatherford College in Wise County, and North Central Texas College in Denton County.  Most of NISD's dual credit classes are with TCC (a few are with NCTC), for instance, even though most of NISD is outside of TCC's service area, so many NISD students have to pay out-of-county rates in order to take dual credit classes.  That said, this should be contingent on TCC building a full campus in far northern Tarrant County, and the needs of the average (non-traditional-age) student in Wise or Denton counties must be considered (keep as-is if the average student is better served by WC/NCTC).

[chmartin79]

Like San Antonio and Houston our city is spread way beyond our local ISD boundaries.  The difference is that I don't hear about the San Antonio or Houston ISDs as being a detriment to those cities attracting business.

Houston ISD is on the list to be taken over by the TEA due to poor performance.  DFW ISDs are doing head and shoulders better than that school district.

[Doohickie]

Should the FWISD be split into smaller units?  I don't know ... just asking.  There are about 20 ISDs in Tarrant already.  Why not 40?  Or 60?

 

Where I grew up in suburban Buffalo, NY, the City of Buffalo was one school district with some number of high schools (the district page lists 18! but I think several of them are targeted/magnet schools).  I grew up in a first ring suburb (Cheektowaga) that, at the time I was growing up, had a population of about 100,000.  There were three or four school districts in that town of 100,000, each with a single high school.  My graduating class was just under 500.

 

The town to the south of that, West Seneca, is more or less a single district (not sure if other districts nibble around the town's boundaries), but basically one district, with two high schools.

 

The tension I suppose is what you brought up:  On the one hand, the bigger the district, the more remote and bureaucratic.  But if it's not big enough, the tax base and student base is more subject, I think, to fluctuations.  Cheektowaga has lost about 15-20% of its population, it's about 85,000 now.  Businesses come and go.... and probably more went than came for quite a while, meaning that the district I grew up in had to contract, from 4 (I think) elementary schools to 1. 

 

Not saying it was good or bad, just stating what I saw.

[bclaridge]

The situation in Fort Worth is so goofy that the new Overton Park Elementary (i.e. Tanglewood 2) is going up on land that is not in the FWISD.

While this is not the case (as mentioned prior), there is one FWISD school that is not physically located within the FWISD, namely the Marine Creek Collegiate High School located on the TCC Northwest Campus.  TCC Northwest straddles the border between Lake Worth ISD and Eagle Mountain-Saginaw ISD, with the majority of the campus buildings within Lake Worth ISD's boundaries (the boundary itself cuts through the WATB building, which is the Marine Creek Collegiate HS building, and a majority of that building is in EMSISD).

A similar arrangement exists between TCC Northeast and Grapevine-Colleyville ISD, as the GCISD Collegiate Academy exists on the TCC Northeast campus, but is not physically within GCISD (TCC-NE is physically in Birdville ISD's boundaries).

It would be nice if FWISD could open the Marine Creek Collegiate High School program to a limited number of EMSISD and LWISD students as an acknowledgement of their physical location within said districts, and the same with respect to the GCISD Collegiate Academy and Birdville ISD.  That said, I believe FWISD already has local selection preference for students residing within the Diamond Hill-Jarvis HS attendance zone for the Marine Creek Collegiate HS, and designating slots for EMSISD and LWISD students in an FWISD program (with staff paid for by FWISD taxpayer dollars) would be unfair and hurt students from lower-income backgrounds on Fort Worth's North Side. 

What might be a more viable approach would involve turning the Marine Creek Collegiate High School into a partnership between FWISD, EMSISD, and LWISD, and the same for turning the GCISD Collegiate Academy into a partnership between GCISD and BISD (and possibly HEBISD too considering the proximity, plus an appropriate renaming of said school).  But then you get into questions about which district would be responsible for hiring staff for the school, which district's payroll staff would be on, not to mention which district students would be attending.  One solution could involve letting the currently-responsible districts remain responsible for operating the program (FWISD and GCISD respectively, including staffing; students would then be said to be attending FWISD or GCISD regardless of the district they came from) but having the other districts "buy-in" to the program in exchange for accepting their students.  To address the issue of the other districts partnering with the program not having representation on making decisions concerning the school, you could then have each school have its own board of trustees consisting of representatives from each school district that has partnered with the program, plus representatives from TCCD.

[Urbndwlr]

Let's take this a step back and strip the current problem down to the core, specific attributes. 

 

FWISD does not currently offer schools (or school environments):

A) that offer the highest levels of intellectual challenge among public schools 

B ) where the vast majority of students take school very seriously

C) where the school culture is one of intense academic focus and achievement

D) where several students go to top universities & colleges each year

 

So what if we (Fort Worth, FWISD) offer a product like this?

A clear path from Junior High through High School that is for talented, focused students.   Free from distraction from disruptive kids in the classroom.  Free from those kids who bully the "smart kids".  Free from those students who are frankly slackers, who set the school's cultural tone of mediocrity.  The kind of place where parents who take their kids' academics very seriously would be delighted to have their kids attend.  

 

I can't tell from the Young Men's/ Women's Leadership Academies and I.M. Terrell are examples of this.  I think the YMLC and YWLA do have the focus/discipline elements (great!) and I dont know if IM Terrell's new STEAM school aims to become a school for the best/most serious students or not.

 

I've heard several times over the years (assuming there is some degree of truth to it) that the reason the FWISD has not done a district-wide magnet school for the best/brightest is a philosophy that views it as unfair to the other students.  Something like, "Let's not allow these really talented kids have a separate environment b/c (somehow) it is unfair to the other (weaker) students".   No.  While this might appear fair, the damage to the serious/stronger/faster students is far greater than the benefit to the less serious/weaker/slower students of keeping the serious/stronger/faster students around.

 

Perhaps more importantly, this concept of fairness (and therefore mediocrity for all) damages the entire city of Fort Worth because, in practice, the parents of the serious/stronger/faster students won't keep their kids at or, often, even consider those schools.  They will instead send them to charter schools or to a suburban ISDs, so the existing public school will lose the serious/stronger/faster students ANYWAY if the FWISD doesn't offer a program for them.

 

I'm not proposing a massive tiered system, but rather just a couple of schools that help capture more these students the FWISD is losing to charter and suburban ISD schools.  Then, let's measure the impact of those, including surveying parents to see if the FWISD is capturing students who otherwise would have gone elsewhere.

 

 

Note the above list deliberately avoids listing demographic homogeneity as something we should aim to offer.  Tragically, there still is a correlation between poverty and poor student performance and so naturally many parents (as well as their real estate agents who advise them where to live) use lack of poverty as a proxy for quality of school. 

 

There are numerous examples nationwide of schools that have both high poverty and high performance, such as Bed-Stuy in NYC.   

https://nypost.com/2...ed-stuy-school/

[roverone]

I think that it is just a 3rd rail kind of idea regardless of its merits or problems.

 

The fact of the matter is that higher family income is a huge enabler for student "focus" -- if you are worried about basics at home, it is hard to focus.  I don't mean that it is impossible, for sure it is not, but the probabilities go down in cases where home life is still working through needs rather than wants.

 

If you stratify the student populations, what is going to happen to the environment and ratings of those left behind?

 

Although there are economic concerns also, this has been a huge issue with the possibility of splitting Paschal's attendance zone.

 

There is absolutely no easy answer, because it is not only, or even mostly, an education issue.  It is an economic issue.  Even in our best public schools there is great effort to raise more funds for their education -- fortunately for those specific kids, they have attendance zones that have the money to donate.  Or the money for private school. Or the money to move out of FWISD.

 

The biggest bleed we have from the FWISD is the misalignment with FW and all of the property taxes that go to the many other ISDs that don't have nearly as much poverty.

 

It seems all of the ideas rely on ranking students and separating them out, and that always means that some number of kids won't meet the high rank, no matter what the criteria is.  It is not clear that any of them create a "rising tide" for all students.

 

I don't mean to deny you the underlying fact: really talented and ambitious kids should have the opportunity to run ahead of the pack.  But it takes extra money to do that.  And really challenged kids should have the help and encouragement to catch up to the pack.  But it takes extra money to do that.  We can be optimistic and say that the system is built for the pack (although I think there are plenty of shortcomings).

 

Again, no easy answer.

[renamerusk]

......There is absolutely no easy answer, because it is not only, or even mostly, an education issue.  It is an economic issue.  Even in our best public schools there is great effort to raise more funds for their education -- fortunately for those specific kids, they have attendance zones that have the money to donate.  Or the money for private school. Or the money to move out of FWISD......The biggest bleed we have from the FWISD is the misalignment with FW and all of the property taxes that go to the many other ISDs that don't have nearly as much poverty.....

 

Again, no easy answer.

 Texas created the blocks of poverty.  It is its unspoken goal politically and immorally.  When? The Desegregation Movement.

 

 I don't believe that poverty is the culprit; it is the pack mentality that must maintain that there are winners and there are losers.  That is the harsh historical truth and is the present reality.

 

 If our stated goal is to reduce poor education, then we should take "all for one" approach: County Unified Public Education District.

 It does not mean that people cannot choose where they live, but it means that where ever you live in Tarrant County, taxes for education will be collected and redirected to those areas in greatest need.

 

To provide education to the poor and middle classes, I would combined all of the ISD units in Tarrant County under one administration taxing jurisdiction and budget.  Resources could flow to where they are most in need.

 

Private schools could still operate and families could send their children to non-public educational providers.

 

As the 2020 pandemic crisis has shown, the public health and administration is best when it is managed under one authority than dozens of authorities are making decisions at the micro level.

[hannerhan]

 If our stated goal is to reduce poor education, then we should take "all for one" approach: County Unified Public Education District.

 It does not mean that people cannot choose where they live, but it means that where ever you live in Tarrant County, taxes for education will be collected and redirected to those areas in greatest need.

 

 

 

First, it's impossible and wouldn't happen in a million years because the outlying cities (Colleyville, etc.) would take it to the Supreme Court before joining "Tarrant County ISD." 

 

But hypothetically let's say that wasn't the case, and it actually got done.  You might as well spray paint the county line, because thousands of upper class people would immediately move just outside it, to Denton, Parker, etc.  And you'd end up with a huge encouragement for more urban sprawl. 

 

Why stop at the county then?  Just make it a State-run ISD and we can take orders from Austin...    

[renamerusk]

Yes, I know that it would not happen: politics and NIMBY.  It is not theoretical, but in practice in other communities. I think that Los Angeles is the major city in a LA County Unified School System (700,000 students).

 

Also, there are some rural counties in Texas that operate quasi countywide  schools, so a favorable Court Decision based upon the merits  would not necessarily be done deal  in favor of Colleyville of whom is joined with Grapevine. They seem to get along because of homogeniety.   I understand the 3rd rail; its the same 3rd rail that prevents universal healthcare in the U.S. Vietnam and Somalia;. Virtually everywhere else, citizens  are not having to face enormous medical bills: Somethings exceed the ideology of profits and the survival of the fittest no matter what.

 

If anything, the centralization of the administration of public education would be streamlined and would no longer be replicated in each community.  It seems like HEB ISD is the counter argument.

 

The answer is more simple than we are led to believe, it is the lack of will to address the legacy of poor education for some students.

[roverone]

Some degree of independence in curriculum should not automatically enable an independence of financial responsibility to make sure all children in Texas have the availability of a good education.

[renamerusk]

Are poor students in FWISD being taught a different curriculum than students in more prosperous public schools?

[renamerusk]

 

 If our stated goal is to reduce poor education, then we should take "all for one" approach: County Unified Public Education District.

 It does not mean that people cannot choose where they live, but it means that where ever you live in Tarrant County, taxes for education will be collected and redirected to those areas in greatest need.

 

 

 

First, it's impossible and wouldn't happen in a million years because the outlying cities (Colleyville, etc.) would take it to the Supreme Court before joining "Tarrant County ISD." 

 

But hypothetically let's say that wasn't the case, and it actually got done.  You might as well spray paint the county line, because thousands of upper class people would immediately move just outside it, to Denton, Parker, etc.  And you'd end up with a huge encouragement for more urban sprawl. 

 

Why stop at the county then?  Just make it a State-run ISD and we can take orders from Austin...    

 

I'm not sure that people would immediately move just because their school taxes where being distributed to help those more in need. Sure there are people who would sadly.  So much for compassion.  An well educated child, poor or rich is a great thing for society.

 

A great school system attracts businesses.  People and companies still choose to live in NYC.  You want Fort Worth to attract businesses, than provide resources to make the schools the best around.

[roverone]

I was making a comment of the concern of "taking orders from Austin" as far as independence is concerned and how that independence of vision and goals and budget should not be used as an escape from responsibility to make sure that every child in the state can get a good education.

 

The language from the TEA site is "The board adopts goals, approves student performance objectives, and establishes policies that provide a well-balanced curriculum resulting in improved student learning."

 

And of course, they set budgets also.

 

https://tea.texas.go...ard-development

 

I'm afraid that the idea of independent school districts is used to narrow the bigger responsibilities to just their own backyard (district); if it is an affluent-only district they can't understand why FWiSD can't just do a better job.

 

I'm suggesting that an independence of vision and goals does not necessarily require an independence of the taxation side of budget.  Since education is one of the best chances to take generations out of poverty, it should be the responsibility of everyone to try to help that.

 

Almost across the board, education is under funded.  Challenged kids need more money, gifted kids need more money.  What is the fair distribution of a limited resource?  I don't know, but that distribution problem gets less and less difficult the more funding that there is.

[renamerusk]

Without repeating Post #29, understood and eloquently stated.

[hannerhan]

I have 3 kids in FWISD currently, with the eldest being 16 years old.  As concisely as possible, here is what I have learned over the past 11 years: 1) our public education system is not underfunded. Sure there are areas where more money would be nice, but where isn't that true in life?  2) Teachers are paid a fair wage.  Starting salary out of college for teachers is $54k in FWISD.  3) Academic success in MOST cases can be directly tied to parental involvement.  4) We need to be way more focused on trade skills and less focused on college as the ultimate goal, for many (if not most) students.

 

I'm a glass-half-full person and I think FWISD is doing a pretty good job.  We can't expect stellar results when parents don't care.  Here's an example...my 8th and 10th graders have teachers who are emailing everyone saying that there are kids who still haven't picked up their (free) Google tablet at the school since the quarantine started.  The communication from the district was a disaster initially, because nobody was/is set up to teach remotely.  But it's coming around now and we are getting things done.  Yet, some kids have literally not picked up a book, so to speak.  That's on the parents, and is indicative of the uphill battle the district is fighting currently, and will always be fighting. 

[roverone]

I think the thing that is hardest to connect to, which I had read about before but was highlighted with the school shutdown for COVID-19, was the shocking percentage of FWISD students who rely on school for 2 and sometimes 3 meals a day.  If a parent cannot feed their child, I don't know how we can expect participation at the layers above that.

 

Based on FWISD's annual report:  64.9% are at risk, 85.7% are economically disadvantaged, 1.2% are homeless, 9.2% are in special education, 43.2% are eligible for free or reduced cost meals.  I bet it doesn't look the same in all of our neighboring ISDs.

 

The thing is, the the school system is the safety net for children.  Not just economically, but providing hope that their family may not be able to provide, a place to be away from or identify abuse.  It's not the kids fault that their parents are unable or just don't know how to help their kids more.

 

Perhaps the reality of all of these different roles a school plays should be acknowledged and more funding should pour into the system from different places (and I know it does to some degree already).

[hannerhan]

The school meal thing is interesting.  I was glad to see that FWISD has continued to provide meals during the COVID shutdown. 

 

That said, I have personally seen many kids who receive free/cheap meals and don't seem to have an issue affording a nice vehicle and the newest iPhone, so let's also realize that just because someone takes advantage of the free meals doesn't necessarily mean they NEED them.  In many cases I'm sure they do, and in many cases I'm sure they don't.

[roverone]

There are cheaters at every level, from the panhandler on the street, through the middle class family who thinks they are being shrewd by bending their numbers for a tax filing, to wealthiest CEO.  Some people will cheat -- we can't let that stop us from doing things for the majority of people who do no cheat.

[renamerusk]

Posts #31,#32,#33 and #34 really get to the heart of the matter. Bravo!

I think these remarks are worth having the attention of everyone.  The U.S. can not continue to have the mixed results that our educational sector produces. 

 

We must do better for every child; even the children of the past two generations who parents are a direct product of the failure of our educational system.  Many parents do care but there are so many other crisis that they must deal with on a daily basis that the children are left leaderless. 

 

It is becoming an imperative that we must break the cycle of allowing children to fend for themselves.  Many of these children have the potential to be productive in our society and in our economy.

[Urbndwlr]

What you guys are saying resonates and is extremely important.  The point of my proposal in post #21 is that I think Fort Worth (as a city and community) is missing out on capturing some families and young people who simply don't come here because they 1) don't think FWISD offers a challenging enough school and 2) they dont want to send kids to private schools.

 

This is MASSIVE from an economic health/ overall prosperity standpoint for our city.*  

I am not saying we need to take our eye off the ball regarding taking care of kids who are less fortunate and struggling. 

My point is we need to create something more competitive to capture more of the kids (and their families) who are choosing to go to Keller, Southlake, Colleyville, and Aledo (or entirely other cities). 

 

*In case it sounds immoral to focus so much on the highly talented recruits, it is totally essential to FW's overall econ health/prosperity that we constantly attract a high number of highly educated, talented individuals esp iin fields such as science/technology/engineering, as they are essential for establishing, growing, and keeping the economic engines of the city going and growing.  Results are higher paying jobs across the board, tax base, and support for local philanthropic causes. When people settle in Colleyville/Southlake etc, they are MUCH less likely to contribute as meaningfully to the Fort Worth community/causes than if they live somewhere in the city.

 

Additional musings:

 

FWISD has roughly 80-85,000 students, split over 13 grades = 6,385 students/grade (avg).  If there is one new one new high school, with 250 students/grade = 4% if it only drew from existing schools.  (it would likely draw in many who otherwise wouldn't go to FWISD at all). 

 

Would taking a handful of really promising students out of each grade in each high school really negatively impact the educational opportunity of the rest of the student body? 

It sounds like this concept of only focusing on the students who are lagging is somehow ignoring the students who are really talented.  And those are the ones who didnt choose private or suburban schools.  

 

My wife attended a FWISD school and basically slept-walked though (or skipped) all of her high school classes, despite the fact that she took a heavy AP course load.  It wasn't because she was exceptionally brilliant but because the classes simply weren't very challenging.  She received good grades and learned relatively little especially compared with her friends who attended various private schools.  This gap is totally unacceptable.  The top students should have a rigorous academic environment on par with the better (if not the best) private schools. 

 

Can you imagine what that would do for the city if we could offer that?  A school that is routinely sending a bunch of kids to top universities.  Many of those kids wind up back at home, and will have gone to MIT instead of UTA (no offense - UTA does a good job but there is no comparison).

[renamerusk]

What you guys are saying resonates and is extremely important.  The point of my proposal in post #21 is that I think Fort Worth (as a city and community) is missing out on capturing some families and young people who simply don't come here because they 1) don't think FWISD offers a challenging enough school and 2) they dont want to send kids to private schools......My point is we need to create something more competitive to capture more of the kids (and their families) who are choosing to go to Keller, Southlake, Colleyville, and Aledo (or entirely other cities)....

 I believe that we are skirting around the 800lbs Gorilla:  Wealth.

 

 The idea that a school is the big bang of everything is false. A school does not appear out of thin air and a universe is created.  A school is created from and by the wealth having been intentionally clustered and locked away for its own self aggrandizement and perpetuation. Among the many kinds of wealth are principally real estate wealth, personal income, legacy wealth and even criminal wealth. (The FBI/DEA ceased the wealth while arresting the American Don of The Mexican Drug Cartel and Family living in Southlake and children no doubt attending Southlake High School). The reality is that you will always find one or more pillars of wealth orbiting around together to form the critical mass  that hen create better health results, better quality of life, and better education. It is not that Fort Worth does not have wealthy individuals and clusters of wealth and high income earners, it is that the critical mass is inconsequential.

 

Neither is about race; any race is welcome so long as there is the appropriate amount of wealth.

 

The bane for much of the nation's ills is the wealth gap which is increasingly becoming more pronounced in both urban and rural communities and between central city and its surrounding communities.  You can not or should you be able to mandate where people choose to live.  Sometimes "excellent schools" is used as an excuse to cover other reasons for self segregation by all kinds of people and for things that schools were never intended to resolve.

 

I believe that schools can actually go along way to close the wealth gap when all kids in every school, regardless of where they reside, can benefit from universal resources.  This is a proven historical fact as one only take in account the University of Texas, a public funded institution which is endowed with the collective resources to create generations of wealth and upper mobility for every kind of Texas kid from every county in the State.

The point is being made that  "we need to create something more creative to capture more of the kids choosing to go......", well this is a peculiar use of phraseology, since kids, whether poor or rich do not choose which ISD to attend. Kids find themselves in communities with resources or communities without resources.  The something more creative would be the revolutionary approach of spreading the total wealth of Tarrant County across its schools along with everything that such an approach entails.

 

Yes, it is controversial, but it is creative too.  Yes, it will be unpopular, but it will be a way to elevate Fort Worth.

[bclaridge]

Let's take this a step back and strip the current problem down to the core, specific attributes. 

 

FWISD does not currently offer schools (or school environments):

A) that offer the highest levels of intellectual challenge among public schools 

B ) where the vast majority of students take school very seriously

C) where the school culture is one of intense academic focus and achievement

D) where several students go to top universities & colleges each year

 

So what if we (Fort Worth, FWISD) offer a product like this?

A clear path from Junior High through High School that is for talented, focused students.   Free from distraction from disruptive kids in the classroom.  Free from those kids who bully the "smart kids".  Free from those students who are frankly slackers, who set the school's cultural tone of mediocrity.  The kind of place where parents who take their kids' academics very seriously would be delighted to have their kids attend.  

 

I can't tell from the Young Men's/ Women's Leadership Academies and I.M. Terrell are examples of this.  I think the YMLC and YWLA do have the focus/discipline elements (great!) and I dont know if IM Terrell's new STEAM school aims to become a school for the best/most serious students or not.

 

I've heard several times over the years (assuming there is some degree of truth to it) that the reason the FWISD has not done a district-wide magnet school for the best/brightest is a philosophy that views it as unfair to the other students.  Something like, "Let's not allow these really talented kids have a separate environment b/c (somehow) it is unfair to the other (weaker) students".   No.  While this might appear fair, the damage to the serious/stronger/faster students is far greater than the benefit to the less serious/weaker/slower students of keeping the serious/stronger/faster students around.

 

Perhaps more importantly, this concept of fairness (and therefore mediocrity for all) damages the entire city of Fort Worth because, in practice, the parents of the serious/stronger/faster students won't keep their kids at or, often, even consider those schools.  They will instead send them to charter schools or to a suburban ISDs, so the existing public school will lose the serious/stronger/faster students ANYWAY if the FWISD doesn't offer a program for them.

 

I'm not proposing a massive tiered system, but rather just a couple of schools that help capture more these students the FWISD is losing to charter and suburban ISD schools.  Then, let's measure the impact of those, including surveying parents to see if the FWISD is capturing students who otherwise would have gone elsewhere.

 

 

Note the above list deliberately avoids listing demographic homogeneity as something we should aim to offer.  Tragically, there still is a correlation between poverty and poor student performance and so naturally many parents (as well as their real estate agents who advise them where to live) use lack of poverty as a proxy for quality of school. 

 

There are numerous examples nationwide of schools that have both high poverty and high performance, such as Bed-Stuy in NYC.   

https://nypost.com/2...ed-stuy-school/

 

FWISD can learn a lot about the implementation of magnet schools from Dallas ISD.  Some of DISD's magnet schools are prestigious in their own right and still serve a ethnically- and socioeconomically-diverse student body.

Consider the following about DISD magnets:

- The School for the Talented and Gifted (TAG) has ranked as the top (#1) public high school in the United States in some years.

- The School of Science and Engineering (SEM) has also ranked as the top public high school in the U.S. at least once.

- The Booker T. Washington High School for the Performing and Visual Arts has routinely sent some of its top students to prestigious fine arts schools, such as Juilliard.

 

I know there was the residency scandal at Booker T. Washington recently (parents in suburban ISDs and HPISD trying to cheat their way into BTW), but DISD has started to take corrective action there.  This should help make the school more socioeconomically diverse.  If BTW did not have the prestige that it enjoys, there would probably have been no cheating on residency, unfortunately (there would be no motivation to cheat in that case).

 

That note about Booker T definitely shows that a good public magnet program can work to get their top students admitted to top universities.  Although admission to fine arts schools follow a different process including auditions, Juilliard has a notoriously-low single-digit admission rate comparable with that of Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, and Yale.  I have little doubt that a least a few of the top students at TAG and SEM are getting admitted at elite universities such as those in the Ivy League, plus MIT and Stanford.  TAG's website even mentions that at least one of their students have been admitted at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT, and Caltech in recent years.


Back to FWISD, I also like some aspects of YMLA and YWLA, but it would be nice to see a gender-neutral magnet program focused on academic achievement and leadership development.  I know the point of these schools are to be single-gender (and having that choice is good I guess), but I do wonder if the lack of a mixed student body leads to issues with the perpetuation of gender stereotypes (eg. "toxic masculinity"), though a progressive district like FWISD should have ways of dealing with this.  Also, at least for some young people (probably less so here in Texas compared to somewhere like Oregon), gender is now a fluid concept that is subject to change.

I.M. Terrell STEM/VPA is still somewhat new and will take some time in order to prove itself.  The part of town where I.M. Terrell is located is definitely a turn-off for those living in affluent areas such as Tanglewood (but Paschal is the default school for Tanglewood anyways, and I believe Paschal already has a good STEM program), Monticello, and Westover Hills.  Many parents in these neighborhoods will send their children to private schools, but a top-notch public school would save them a lot of money (that could otherwise be put towards college, investments, etc.); keep in mind that even rich people can be somewhat frugal if it serves them well.  While you can have top students from lower-income neighborhoods, most highly-achieving schools seem to have a degree of children from more affluent backgrounds mixed in to the student body, and this can be a good thing.  Having at least a few affluent families could work to increase the upward mobility of the lower-income students attending the school, as students can more easily build connections with those in a higher social class, not to mention other positive aspects such as affluent parents donating to the school.

The value of these connections cannot be underestimated.  During my time at TCU, I networked with many of TCU's student leaders, and I have no doubt that these connections will serve me well in the future, especially given that my family came from a blue-collar background.  I have yet to find that "dream job" (I'm dealing with some health issues right now), but I do recognize that who I know can determine the course of my career for the better.

[renamerusk]

The collective input from each of you is astonishing.  As a matter to the pursuit of happiness, liberty and prosperity, nothing is as essential to the soul and life as is an educated being.  It gives hope for the future that genuine heartfelt solutions are on the minds of everyone instead of settling for mediocracy and the status quo.

[Urbndwlr]

 

What you guys are saying resonates and is extremely important.  The point of my proposal in post #21 is that I think Fort Worth (as a city and community) is missing out on capturing some families and young people who simply don't come here because they 1) don't think FWISD offers a challenging enough school and 2) they dont want to send kids to private schools......My point is we need to create something more competitive to capture more of the kids (and their families) who are choosing to go to Keller, Southlake, Colleyville, and Aledo (or entirely other cities)....

 I believe that we are skirting around the 800lbs Gorilla:  Wealth.

 

 The idea that a school is the big bang of everything is false. A school does not appear out of thin air and a universe is created.  A school is created from and by the wealth having been intentionally clustered and locked away for its own self aggrandizement and perpetuation. Among the many kinds of wealth are principally real estate wealth, personal income, legacy wealth and even criminal wealth. (The FBI/DEA ceased the wealth while arresting the American Don of The Mexican Drug Cartel and Family living in Southlake and children no doubt attending Southlake High School). The reality is that you will always find one or more pillars of wealth orbiting around together to form the critical mass  that hen create better health results, better quality of life, and better education. It is not that Fort Worth does not have wealthy individuals and clusters of wealth and high income earners, it is that the critical mass is inconsequential.

 

Neither is about race; any race is welcome so long as there is the appropriate amount of wealth.

 

The bane for much of the nation's ills is the wealth gap which is increasingly becoming more pronounced in both urban and rural communities and between central city and its surrounding communities.  You can not or should you be able to mandate where people choose to live.  Sometimes "excellent schools" is used as an excuse to cover other reasons for self segregation by all kinds of people and for things that schools were never intended to resolve.

 

I believe that schools can actually go along way to close the wealth gap when all kids in every school, regardless of where they reside, can benefit from universal resources. kids, whether poor or rich do not choose which ISD to attend.

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting idea: broaden the ISD/ taxing entity pool to better level resource playing field.   I (one voter) am open to that.  In my proposal, I am assuming we have to work within the existing framework of ISDs and not wait for a massive reorganization of the ISD system.  (not intended to dismiss your proposal)

 

I assume you are correct that a great number of parents who choose suburban ISDs do so just because of their lack of poverty and probably racial profile.  I don't believe that this describes all of suburban ISD parents.  I believe a substantial number of those parents are primarily interested in a school they think gives their children the best shot at an excellent college (and they can't or won't pay for private school).

 

I am imagining an urban public magnet high school, in/near the center of the city, where the student body ranges mostly from lower to upper-middle income, is largely students of color (but certainly not limited to that).  The common denominator among students is that they are smart and serious about school.  This school would be academically better than most or all suburban high schools and the stats and college matriculation would prove it. 

 

It seems plausible that FWISD, under its Schools of Choice initiative, could create (or reposition) a school with a goal of becoming one of these highly respected public high schools like the ones bclaridge mentioned above in post #38.

 

If the FWISD is unwilling or unable to create a magnet school like this, maybe a public charter school is the answer.   All things equal I'd prefer to see it happen in the FWISD.

 

I've been google searching and looking for examples of high performing public high schools in urban ISDs.  FWIW, here are a few links to US News & World Report's Best High Schools (public). 

https://www.usnews.c...school-rankings

Glancing through the first few pages, you can see several that are clearly in major urban ISDs including the ones in Dallas, near the top.  I think its worth some more reading to see how these came about, and if there are any good success stories that we could possibly learn from and apply here in Fort Worth.

 

Some interesting high performing public school examples: 

 

Stuyvesant High School (NYC) - I had the name slightly wrong in previous post.

https://en.wikipedia...ant_High_School

 

Austin Liberal Arts & Science Academy

https://en.wikipedia...Science_Academy

 

FW's YWLA is earning top rankings too.

[bclaridge]

FW's YWLA is earning top rankings too.

That is good to hear.  However, FWISD does need a good magnet school that does not exclude half its student population from the admission process by design.

Also, with respect to the idea of a hypothetical single-county school district, remember that many area ISDs do cross county boundaries.  Northwest ISD, which covers parts of Tarrant, Denton, and Wise counties, stands to lose a lot from such a proposal.  Two of NISD's zoned high schools (Northwest and Byron Nelson) are in Denton County, and Byron Nelson's attendance zone extends into northern Tarrant County.  VR Eaton High School, the only NISD high school in Tarrant County, has an attendance zone that also covers small portions of Denton and Wise counties, likely to incorporate those areas of the Sendera Ranch development (current and future) that are outside of Tarrant County.  As such, there would need to be a wholesale shift of attendance zones and feeder patterns in some places to accomodate a countywide school district, and possibly the construction of new schools.  Many students would have to change schools suddenly, and could lose connections with classmates and friends.  Some county-straddling neighborhoods like Sendera Ranch would then be divided between two school districts, where no such division existed previously; this is assuming, of course, that a countywide school district remains strictly confined to the county boundaries, and is not gerrymandered to fully incorporate county-straddling neighborhoods and developments (which could happen as Texas school districts are independent from other municipal authorities).

One NISD neighborhood that might stand to gain in this proposal would be Saratoga (where Kay Granger Elementary School is), as a countywide school district could zone them to the nearby Timber Creek High School in Keller ISD (less than a mile away), rather than them having to go all the way to Byron Nelson HS in Trophy Club, given school district boundaries as they currently stand.  But most places in county-straddling ISDs will lose rather than gain.

Azle ISD would also have major issues with a Tarrant County-wide school district.  Unlike Northwest ISD, which could remain a viable entity in their portion of Denton and Wise counties, all Azle ISD schools that cover 5th grade and above (intermediate, middle, and high) are in Tarrant County, and these schools would be presumably absorbed into the Tarrant County district.  This leaves the Parker County portion of Azle ISD with only elementary schools up to 4th grade, and other districts in Parker County might have trouble absorbing the intermediate, middle, and high school students left out of their former schools.

The Bella development southwest of Benbrook, which is in Tarrant County and is largely in the Aledo ISD (a small portion is in FWISD), would stand to lose Aledo schools as well.  Aledo schools are Bella's main selling point, and there is little room for the kids there to fit into the Benbrook FWISD schools (overcrowding is very much a problem at Westpark Elementary, as well as at Benbrook Middle-High School).

In other words, there are too many problems with county-straddling ISDs (and school capacities made to fit existing feeder patterns that cross county lines) to deviate from the status quo and create a county-wise school district.  There has also been a boundary dispute between Carroll ISD and Northwest ISD involving the Tarrant/Denton county line.