1099 replies to this topic

[Fort Worthology]

Kevin:

Is the strip center behind where the Texaco was staying? BTW, I am a big fan of FortWorthology.com Great site!

Thanks! The historic retail building there is not being demolished - it is being integrated into the development. Its parking lot will be removed and converted to a street, with on-street head-in parking.

[Thurman52]

The historic shopping center is not owned by the developer, so how can they put a street through it? I watched on the board of adjustment a month back where the owner of the building was fighting against the new building height where the Texaco was. He was not happy about the development, but he be talking tough to get a better buy-out offer...

The tanks were taken out months ago. A construction fence went up around the future post office site.

Rumour is Houston's is moving into the building where the Texaco was, possibly on the top floor with roof deck/patio...

Are they taking out the billboard?

Also the 2 story developement going on across from the current post office, is that part of this project or just another development riding the coat tails?

[dustin]

woo hoo! First post.

I hear from good authority that the billboard will no longer be. Many of the Modern's patrons will be pleased to hear that. I can tell you how many times I hear about that billboard (i work at the Modern).

I figure I will ease myself into the water with this innocuous topic before I get into posting on the new FC Church thread.

[safly]

"Welcome to the THUNDERDOME...Dustin!"

[pelligrini]

The historic shopping center is not owned by the developer, so how can they put a street through it? I watched on the board of adjustment a month back where the owner of the building was fighting against the new building height where the Texaco was. He was not happy about the development, but he be talking tough to get a better buy-out offer...

The parking area might be part of a different lot. Just looking at the TAD map of the area there are a bunch of long narrow lots.

[Fort Worthology]

Check the site plan if you don't believe me - the parking lot becomes a narrow street with head-in parking.

[cbellomy]

Yep, that's the Barden St. extension that I've seen mentioned in several places.

[Fort Worthology]

As we watch the first two buildings now getting underway at the big Six Points intersection...



...another part of Museum Place that I have neglected to cover is already going vertical.



According to the documents I have, this is a live/work complex, set up for ground-floor retail with attached apartments above in classic New Urbanist live/work style. A great addition to this neighborhood. Also note the new Ken Schaumburg-designed Village Homes townhome development already complete on the right.

[mmiller2002]

According to the documents I have, this is a live/work complex, set up for ground-floor retail with attached apartments above in classic New Urbanist live/work style. A great addition to this neighborhood. Also note the new Ken Schaumburg-designed Village Homes townhome development already complete on the right.

To each their own, but those Village townhomes would look much better without the angled boxes on top. They look like the're trying too hard to be "industrial" styled. Same goes for the even uglier ones in north downtown with boxes on top. Is that "New Urbanist" style?

[Fort Worthology]

To each their own, but those Village townhomes would look much better without the angled boxes on top. They look like the're trying too hard to be "industrial" styled. Same goes for the even uglier ones in north downtown with boxes on top. Is that "New Urbanist" style?

New Urbanism is not an architectural style, but a design and planning philosophy, so no, that is not a part of it, nor is any particular architectural style. All such townhomes have something like those boxes, to allow access to the rooftop decks. Some of them are boxes, some are angled like in the Pecan Place townhomes. Personally, I think they all look good - Schaumburg's designs are good, and I love the Palisades (Trinity Bluff) design as well.

As for a live/work, it is a design that allows an independent businessperson to have a retail shop or office with an attached apartment directly above, allowing them to live and work in the same location. These have proven quite successful in other parts of the country and are a core element of the New Urbanism that we have been underserved with around here.

[mmiller2002]

As for a live/work, it is a design that allows an independent businessperson to have a retail shop or office with an attached apartment directly above, allowing them to live and work in the same location.

How many of those retail shop owners do you really think will be able to afford the rent in the apartment above? Besides, most of the shops are probably going to be chains with corporate owners.

But, i agree its a cute idea. like the old east coast real cities had in their downtowns with mom&pop shops.

[ICD]

As for a live/work, it is a design that allows an independent businessperson to have a retail shop or office with an attached apartment directly above, allowing them to live and work in the same location.

How many of those retail shop owners do you really think will be able to afford the rent in the apartment above? Besides, most of the shops are probably going to be chains with corporate owners.

But, i agree its a cute idea. like the old east coast real cities had in their downtowns with mom&pop shops.

This project on W. 7th St. is where the 7/11 next door is going to relocate. Which brings to mind the great question: Is it good or bad to live above a 7/11. On the positive side, you can run downstairs in your bathrobe and get coffee and donuts. Plus having a place to get beer close by late at night. On the negative side, you have all that noise and traffic downstairs at all hours of the night. Plus, during Stock Show times, you have the carnies eating their meals outside of your dwelling. Tough call.

[Fort Worthology]

How many of those retail shop owners do you really think will be able to afford the rent in the apartment above?

See, the way most live/works work, as has been my experience, is that you don't *just* rent one or the other - your rent pays for your office/retail space *and* your apartment. It's all one thing - there's stairs in the office that take you up to the living area. That's the whole point. That's what makes it a live/work, rather than just apartments over retail.

This isn't a new idea - it's been around a long time, and similar modern live/works have been quite successful elsewhere. These concepts have been a part of the built environment for hundreds of years. The fact that so many people out there have forgotten them in the post-WWII suburban sprawl fest doesn't change that.

[safly]

^^^ Very TRUE.

I believe B.I.G. had that same concept.

[mmiller2002]

This project on W. 7th St. is where the 7/11 next door is going to relocate. Which brings to mind the great question: Is it good or bad to live above a 7/11. On the positive side, you can run downstairs in your bathrobe and get coffee and donuts. Plus having a place to get beer close by late at night. On the negative side, you have all that noise and traffic downstairs at all hours of the night. Plus, during Stock Show times, you have the carnies eating their meals outside of your dwelling. Tough call.

Now that's something to think about! 7-11s draw a lot of noise and trash. And, they smell. Maybe the assistant manager will live/work there.

[mmiller2002]

See, the way most live/works work, as has been my experience, is that you don't *just* rent one or the other - your rent pays for your office/retail space *and* your apartment. It's all one thing - there's stairs in the office that take you up to the living area. That's the whole point. That's what makes it a live/work, rather than just apartments over retail.

Still sounds cute on paper, but that really limits the potential renters. I'd bet most don't want to be at work all the time. There's a much different society now than the late-1800's to mid-1900's. Mom & pop shops are basically gone.

There's a reason a lot of people moved out of the big old cities to the 'burbs. Space and escape.

[vjackson]

^^^
There was a project in Seattle that did something similar. You could buy a condo with commercial space on the bottom. It didn't go over very well. From what I heard, a few owners converted to first floor to studio apts and rented them out. Didn't the Pecan Place Condo's 1st phase have a similar concept?

[Urbndwlr]

See, the way most live/works work, as has been my experience, is that you don't *just* rent one or the other - your rent pays for your office/retail space *and* your apartment. It's all one thing - there's stairs in the office that take you up to the living area. That's the whole point. That's what makes it a live/work, rather than just apartments over retail.

Still sounds cute on paper, but that really limits the potential renters. I'd bet most don't want to be at work all the time. There's a much different society now than the late-1800's to mid-1900's. Mom & pop shops are basically gone.

There's a reason a lot of people moved out of the big old cities to the 'burbs. Space and escape.

The term live/work is often misused and misunderstood.
Live/work units are flexible units that can be used for residential, commercial, or a combination of the two. And just because most people won't be inclined to live upstairs from their office doesn't make the idea of developing mixed use neighborhoods useless. The idea is that some people will choose to live much closer to their place of work or just closer to the places where they can perform some of their daily errands. It is about crating more compact spaces that allow people to conduct more of their daily activities on foot than they currently do in the environments where they absolutely have to drive everywhere.

[Fort Worthology]

The term live/work is often misused and misunderstood.
Live/work units are flexible units that can be used for residential, commercial, or a combination of the two. And just because most people won't be inclined to live upstairs from their office doesn't make the idea of developing mixed use neighborhoods useless. The idea is that some people will choose to live much closer to their place of work or just closer to the places where they can perform some of their daily errands. It is about crating more compact spaces that allow people to conduct more of their daily activities on foot than they currently do in the environments where they absolutely have to drive everywhere.

Thank you, Urb. Couldn't have put it better myself.

[Thurman52]

Base of what appears to be two cranes were installed this week.

*Update* Cranes going up today

[Thurman52]

They appear to have scraped the future post office site and took down the damaged poles from the billboard. This project sounds like it's moving now

[Fort Worthology]

Cranes at night for the office/residential/retail building at the big intersection (I have also seen on Museum Place's site plans that this building has a space marked "cinema").



Meanwhile, the first building is topping out.

[Fort Worthology]

Summary of status posted on Fort Worthology:

Rolling forward...





Now closed, the Wreck Room awaits its date with the demolition crews as Museum Place moves ahead with its construction.



The site where the Texaco used to be at the big intersection has been cleared for the construction of a glassy Flatiron-style office building with ground floor retail.











With its cranes in place, the office/residential/retail building at the big intersection between 7th & Bailey has started rising from its site. With its location, this will be a very prominent building, not only at the big intersection but from farther down 7th towards downtown. It should have a commanding spot in the streetscape.



Work has now gotten underway on the new Post Office at the big intersection between Bailey and University. The tornado-bent poles that will form the centerpiece of the Post Office’s plaza have been temporarily removed so as not to interfere with construction crews.



The nearby existing Post Office will be demolished for another large mixed-use building.





The first Museum Place building, on the north side of 7th at Arch Adams, topped out recently, and crews are adding what appear to be steel beams to the building now. Having not seen a rendering of this building, it will be interesting to see its finished appearance.



The building on Camp Bowie that formerly house Auto Restyling Center, Inc. and Pro Cuts looks to be next in line for demolition, as Midwest Wrecking has already parked a trailer on the site. It will be demolished for another mixed-use residential/retail structure. This is on the west end of the development - virtually everything between here and the big intersection is being demolished for Museum Place.



The cranes watch over the Wreck Room and 7th Street Barber Shop, all of which will be demolished for the development.



Domain and Backwoods will also be demolished (as will the office building to the west) and replaced with new mixed-use residential/retail structures and an Aloft hotel. Backwoods looks to be moving to the Shops & Lofts at So7, down 7th to the east.





Finally, the historic retail structure near the big intersection between Camp Bowie and 7th (home of the Great Outdoors sandwich shop) is virtually the only building in the development site that will not be demolished. It will, however, be integrated into the development - the building will not be changed, but its parking lot (seen above) will be converted into an extension of Barden Street, and will feature on-street parking.

[cjyoung]

Any word on where ARC is moving?

[vjackson]

I didn't know the shopping center with the procuts in it was being demolished for this project. Good!! I always hated it.

And I'm glad the Great Outdoors cener will be intergrated into the project. Always loved the building. The only thing that ruined it was the parking. It'll be good to see it go.

[jmilam]

Any word on where ARC is moving?

There is a sign on the building and I think they moved somewhere east, mid cities, like Hurst or something?

[jmilam]

Kevin, great pics and update. Next time you are in the area, there is a new two story structure going up on Carroll across the street from Target. Do you know what that is? It looks kind of mixed - use, or residential, but there is no sign except the builders name....

[Fort Worthology]

Kevin, great pics and update. Next time you are in the area, there is a new two story structure going up on Carroll across the street from Target. Do you know what that is? It looks kind of mixed - use, or residential, but there is no sign except the builders name....

I'm not sure exactly. It might be the new home of the grill that was at 7th & Carroll, the one that 7th Haven is displacing. I saw that they were moving down Carroll, so I figure they're either going in there or the little retail building behind their old one.

[Fort Worthology]

So it turns out that this building...



...*is* where the 7-11 is moving to. It will have condos above. The 7-11 is going to be reworked into a "corner store" type of place, and guess what - I've been able to get ahold of a couple of renderings of the finished product. I believe some small details have changed since these renderings, but this should give a pretty good idea of what this little building will look like. I think they've done a fantastic job of integrating the 7-11:

[ramjet]

Thanks so much, Kevin, for the progress pics. Keeps us out-of-town Fort Worth-o-philes in the loop. Watching the progress on West 7th Street is going to be fun...

[Thurman52]

I am still confused on the historic shopping center. It's not owned by the same developer, for that matter the current owner protested against the flat iron stye building at the last board of adjustment.

As for the 2 story building on Carol that is an office building for a non-profit, odd....

[txsloth]

"I also noticed Z Tejas Southwestern Grill http://www.ztejas.com/"

I checked out the website and looks pretty tasty to me. They will be close to and have to work hard to beat Lanny's for taste and quality.

Sorry if this is old news, but here is an email I received from Z Tejas:

"Thanks for the Email. We will be opening a new location in the Austin
area on November 12th. It will be first new opening in six years. We
have plans to open several more in the next few years. However, those
locations have not been finalized yet. I will say that we are looking
at several locations in Texas."

Z Tejas is an excellent restaurant and I really hope they move into our neighborhood. However, I see them being more competition for Michael's than Lanny's.

[William Huber]

Any word on where ARC is moving?

Haltom Rd off 121, I've had work done there & I highly recommend them to anyone.

[Fort Worthology]

Just a couple of updates - the big retail/office/condo building between 7th & Bailey is already going vertical. They're moving quickly:





I've also been able to get ahold of a newer rendering of the Flatiron-style building going onto the triangular plot where Camp Bowie and 7th split:

[txsloth]

I've also been able to get ahold of a newer rendering of the Flatiron-style building going onto the triangular plot where Camp Bowie and 7th split

Thanks for the update. I think I prefer the original rendering for this building--it showed a sidewalk cafe being located at the "tip" of the triangle. This building really doesn't look very retail-friendly.

[djold1]

Abominable!

I hope that this building doesn't look like that rendering. It uses every bad architectural cliche.

Art is & to some extent architechural surfaces are certainly subjective but to my mind this is as bad as the featureless big box Modern with its tacky sheet tin walls.

Fort Worth's contemporary architecture needs to be better than the mindless and forgettable clutter that is growing up at the east end of the Cultural District.

Yuck!

[Fort Worthology]

I happen to think the Modern is absolutely gorgeous. One of the few buildings of that style that work for me.

As for the Museum Place Flatiron, I will withold judgement. It seems like this side is very different from the other side, which is all glass.

[Sam Stone]

I am willing to suspend judgment until I see more of it, but my first impression is not favorable. I think the scale is about right. But the corner entrance should be visible from the corner. Modern is fine by me, but that big featureless corner element smacks of the worst of 1950s International Style.

[cberen1]

I'd like to see the rendering more in the context of the planned buildings around it. In this picture it appears to be somewhat alone and looks heavy and severe. This will be immediately in front of the Great Outdoors, right? I wonder how it would look if we drew in the other buildings around it? I suspect it might look more out of place than it does in this picture.

[Fort Worthology]

I'd like to see the rendering more in the context of the planned buildings around it. In this picture it appears to be somewhat alone and looks heavy and severe. This will be immediately in front of the Great Outdoors, right? I wonder how it would look if we drew in the other buildings around it? I suspect it might look more out of place than it does in this picture.

Correct. It will be on the triangular plot formerly occupied by the old Texaco, right in front of the historic structure that houses Great Outdoors. It's in the rendering, but only in vague box form (the one-story box behind the Flatiron). The only other really distinct object in the rendering is the Aloft Hotel down the street, with its characteristic roof.

[AdamB]

LOL it looks like it could be an annex to the federal building downtown.

It isn't that bad IMHO. I think it will work when we see it in context with everything that is going around it.

[djold1]

If you define Modern as an architectural style... I personally think that overall most of it generally fails the history test.

Contemporary buildings are not by definition necessarily modern buildings. The word "Modern" whether applied to buildings or art is unfortunate because when the first moment of their finished existence is over they become modern no longer.

All Modern art is now a vintage style. Therefore the FWMOM is itself a building which implies that it houses art from the vintage Modern period. Which is only partially true. The MOM is a misnomer.

My personal feelings about the MOM are strictly about the looks of the external structure. I have no arguments with the contents, which are hopefully classified as art. As external architecture viewed from a number of angles I see little if any difference in the MOM's concept from the now departed and unlamented McDavid Pontiac building on 7th street.

Again, in my personal opinion they are tearing down better buildings in that area. There is/was one neat tin building in the La Famila area that I thought was much more interesting and had better detail. Unfortunately this cool building gave/gives the impression of having ornamentation involved so it would probably be anathema to those who consider a successful Modern structure as anything without overt ornamention.

About the only way that I think that Modern structures work is if they produce a feeling of starkness and simplicity that is effective. Modern structures are not warm. And that's alright if they produce an effect.

In contrast, the MOM is a featureless lump. Somewhat similar to the south exposure of the Montgomery Ward building before its piercing, but without some of the warmth that crept through from the MW. Externally, the MOM is an unrelieved and boring shoebox with some silly vent structures that look vaguely like flying saucers on the roof when viewed from the north. I do like concrete as a material but I have seen better designed and more impelling concrete support "Y's" on highway bridges. There is no doubt that the reflecting pool may be pleasant from the inside but does little when looking from the outside. I do kind of like the rusty turbine thingy outside. But that is not the building.

Back acrss the street.. to compare the new building now rising with the Flatiron is rather strange. Call it pie shaped. Both it and the Flatiron are pie shaped. But there is a huge difference in concept and appearance. I think the rendering makes it look like a 1950's bank.

No matter what I think or what others think, history will tell. Many of us are embarrassed by the structures built in downtown FW in the 1950's and 60's. And I have a feeling that if either of these buildings are still in existence in 50+ years that there will be a universal cringe reaction when one reluctantly passes by either of them.

The clutter on University near 7th & Camp Bowie will not be one seen as one of Fort Worth's finer architectural moments.

[jmilam]

I think the rendering makes it look like a 1950's bank.

The clutter on University near 7th & Camp Bowie will not be one seen as one of Fort Worth's finer architectural moments.

I like 1950's banks...

As far as the finished product...give it a chance, as it hasn't been built yet...

[Fort Worthology]

If you define Modern as an architectural style... I personally think that overall most of it generally fails the history test.

(snip)

Back acrss the street.. to compare the new building now rising with the Flatiron is rather strange. Call it pie shaped. Both it and the Flatiron are pie shaped. But there is a huge difference in concept and appearance. I think the rendering makes it look like a 1950's bank.

No matter what I think or what others think, history will tell. Many of us are embarrassed by the structures built in downtown FW in the 1950's and 60's. And I have a feeling that if either of these buildings are still in existence in 50+ years that there will be a universal cringe reaction when one reluctantly passes by either of them.

The clutter on University near 7th & Camp Bowie will not be one seen as one of Fort Worth's finer architectural moments.

Pete - don't shoot the messenger, man. I am not a modernist, and I far and away prefer traditional architecture, so I'm not an enemy.

The Modern just looks good to me, and I can't explain why. I don't like a lot of buildings in that style, but I like that one. As for the "Flatiron" designation, that's just a convenient way to describe the shape. I'm not trying to compare it to the actual Flatiron (NYC or Fort Worth), because, well, there is no comparison, either way.

Personally, I'm not really a big fan of the architectural styles of some of Museum Place and West 7th's more modern-styled structures (there are some Museum Place buildings that look great, and are far more traditional - see the 7-Eleven corner store/condo building going up at 7th & Arch Adams). If I were designing things, I'd lean in a much more traditional direction that would make most of the modernists on this forum spit. From what I've seen, though, several buildings in Museum Place will probably be pretty nice looking. I have to admit this latest rendering of this building puzzles me - it does seem to stick out like a sore thumb compared to most of the rest of Museum Place's architecture.

[djold1]

Glee & others...

Easy there..

I was only expressing my personal opinion of the MOM and the rendering of the new building. Shooting at no one.

Appreciation of architecture is purely subjective & personal and I have to admit that my tastes sometimes veer drastically away from others.

It's been a long time since I've wantonly shot a messenger...

[safly]

I getcha AG. You don't like stuff that is too busy, right?

I have seen that EXACT building done in SA.

Off of Babcock Rd. in NWest SA. Between the UTHSCenter and Huebner Rd.

[cberen1]

If you define Modern as an architectural style... I personally think that overall most of it generally fails the history test.

Whole heartedly agree.

My personal feelings about the MOM are strictly about the looks of the external structure. I have no arguments with the contents, which are hopefully classified as art. As external architecture viewed from a number of angles I see little if any difference in the MOM's concept from the now departed and unlamented McDavid Pontiac building on 7th street.

...the MOM is a featureless lump. Somewhat similar to the south exposure of the Montgomery Ward building before its piercing, but without some of the warmth that crept through from the MW. Externally, the MOM is an unrelieved and boring shoebox with some silly vent structures that look vaguely like flying saucers on the roof when viewed from the north. I do like concrete as a material but I have seen better designed and more impelling concrete support "Y's" on highway bridges. There is no doubt that the reflecting pool may be pleasant from the inside but does little when looking from the outside. I do kind of like the rusty turbine thingy outside. But that is not the building.

Here I disagree somewhat. MOM has a delicate and natural landscape on the two most visible sides and the building seems to fit within the lanscape instead of being plopped down in the center of a flat lot. I think that separates it from many modern buildings and the effect should continue to be more pronounced as the landscape matures. I also really like the finish on the concrete. I've been around a lot of concrete and in my opinion that's the first finish I might describe as supple. Admittedly, it's a detail that doesn't come through from the street. Overall I find MOM visually pleasant, although it doesn't appear to want to be part of the neighborhood, hiding behind its wall. It's an island.

Like MOM, I think severe structures benefit from being softened by a mature landscape. It appears this pie shaped building will occupy most of the lot it is on, limiting the opportunity for much landscaping. Judgement: Sore thumb.

[txsloth]

Over the weekend rows of stakes were placed where I believe the new post office is going to be. Today quite a bit of earth has been moved at that site. Does anyone have a recent rendering of this building? I recall reading somewhere (perhaps earlier in this thread) that the original design plans had been rejected by the city (or whatever entity has that power).

[Fort Worthology]

I haven't heard that it was rejected. As far as I've been told, this is the most recent image:

[txsloth]

I haven't heard that it was rejected.

Found what I was thinking of in post #42 of this thread--probably doesn't refer to this most recent rendering, but I kinda wish it did:

"I went to a wedding in Conneticut in June and I met the son of the architects (I think it is a husband and wife team) who is designing the museum place post office. He told me that their first design was rejected by the design board and that they were still in the process of finishing the new design. That is porbably why construction has been delayed."