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Who's the biggest fish in the South?


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#1 Dallastar

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 09:26 PM

I know that Atlanta and Nashville aren't surrounding cities, but I felt this article was interesting.
Please read it all before commenting.
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Who's the biggest fish in the South?

Updated 6/16/2006 10:04 AM ET
By Larry Copeland, USA TODAY

NASHVILLE The man who ignited a battle for Southern bragging rights with his plan to build a skyscraper taller than anything in Atlanta, Charlotte or anywhere else in Dixie says it was an inadvertent first shot.
"We didn't set out to build the tallest building," says developer Tony Giarratana of his planned Signature Tower, a $275 million condo and hotel tower that would soar 65 stories into the Nashville skyline. "We never even thought about being taller than anything in Atlanta. We just wanted to do a special building that was a piece of art for the city of Nashville. I've got to think the guys in Atlanta were just completely shell-shocked. They were so shocked that they just got very defensive."

Atlanta, long considered the crown jewel of Southern cities, is facing a wave of regional competition from Nashville, Charlotte and other upstarts eager to flex economic muscle and project an image as dynamic metro areas that are good places for businesses, families and young people.

Atlanta has been buffeted lately by one dose of bad news after another: Its Ford and General Motors plants, along with two military bases, are closing. Delta Air Lines is struggling. BellSouth is being merged into San Antonio-based AT&T.

The news here in the longtime home of country music, meanwhile, has been all good. Nashville has landed eight corporate headquarters in the past 2 years, says Janet Miller, who recruits businesses for the Nashville Area Chamber of Commerce.

The city is reaping the kind of national accolades from magazines such as Kiplinger's and Travel & Leisure that can make even die-hard Atlanta boosters tear out their hair: Hottest city for business. Smartest place to live. Even horror of horrors to competitors in the genteel South America's friendliest city.

Nashville is in the midst of a building boom that will bring a gleaming symphony hall, a new stadium for the minor league baseball team, a black history museum and a new courthouse. Downtown, which Mayor Bill Purcell says had just 10 condominium units in 1999, is undergoing a residential construction explosion that's reshaping the city.

It all has folks here feeling pretty cocky. "We don't just compete," Purcell says. "In most recent national surveys, we're at the top. ... Atlanta's airport and retail offerings were a model for the region for a long time. We also see Atlanta as a place we can learn from, a place that grew so fast in so many directions, they became increasingly held captive by their own success."

Atlanta's no pushover

It's not just Nashville jostling Atlanta either.

Charlotte, already known as a national banking center, is undergoing its own condo-tower boom. For pure sizzle, nothing tops Charlotte's victory last year over Atlanta and Daytona Beach, Fla., in the bidding war for a Hall of Fame that will pay homage to a sport that rivets the South NASCAR.

Atlanta's chief booster scoffs at the notion that these rivals can dethrone his city.

Not unless they "go out there and put Hartsfield (-Jackson International Airport, the USA's busiest) on wheels and roll it up the interstate," says Sam Williams, president of the Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce. "Our competition is not the Charlottes and Nashvilles. Our competition is Frankfurt and Singapore and Shanghai. ... The Southeast is like a great big curved mirror. The focal point of that mirror is Atlanta."

Atlanta's tallest skyscraper, the Bank of America Plaza (1,023 feet), has been the South's tallest building and the tallest in the USA outside New York or Chicago since its completion in 1992. Signature Tower would hit 1,047.

"We aren't worried about that," Williams says. "We care about jobs. In metro Atlanta, 2,337,600 people have a job every day. That's an economic juggernaut. We added 69,000 jobs last year. The economy is stronger now than in nine years. No city in the Southeast can even approach 69,000 net new jobs."

He says Atlanta is the nation's top city for small business and No. 3 for Fortune 500 companies. While Atlanta's population of 420,000 is smaller than Nashville's 570,000, the Atlanta metropolitan area's 4.7 million dwarfs metro Nashville's 1.3 million.

Big-ticket item

Atlanta has a new weapon in the prestige sweepstakes. The city has been captivated by whale sharks Ralph and Norton at the Georgia Aquarium, a stunning success since opening Nov. 21 as the world's largest. It drew nearly 2 million visitors the first six months a number that planners had hoped to reach in the first full year. The four whale sharks part of the world's biggest fish species are the only ones on exhibit in the Americas.

In a more magnanimous moment, Williams says he's glad to see the economic emergence of other Southern cities because it enables the Southeast to compete against other regions. "The Southeast is converging, not competing," he says. "You look forward 20 years from now, you're going to have this entire region connected by high-speed rail. Birmingham, Atlanta, Macon (Ga.), Chattanooga (Tenn.), Greenville (S.C.) and Charlotte will converge"

For now, Nashville is basking in its success. "Nashville and the middle Tennessee area are truly a city and a region that are on a roll," says Michael Neal, president and CEO of the Nashville chamber. "We've added about a half-million new jobs since 1990. In 1990, our per capita income was 5% below the national average. Now, it's about 8% above."

City leaders say that Nashville, whose principal industries are automobile manufacturing, music, higher education, for-profit health care, publishing and tourism, is attractive because of its location, climate and diversity: The city has 11,000 Kurds, the largest population in the USA, and a large contingent of Iraqi nationals.

Its low property taxes help, too. There's no state income tax and property taxes are 50% lower than in Memphis, Purcell says.

Many here say their city already has bested the behemoth 250 miles to the southeast. Attorney James Weaver, whose firm is involved in the city's economic development efforts, says bragging rights between the two cities might have to be resolved on the NFL gridiron. "Heaven forbid the Titans beat the Falcons on Aug. 28," he says. "What will happen? Will there be mass suicides in Atlanta?"










#2 Now in Denton

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 11:14 AM


Name one city in the South that don't think it is the up and coming IT City?

#3 vjackson

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 11:30 AM

I was never aware of a rivalry between Atlanta and Nashville. It's been a looong time since I've been to Nashville. And I've only been twice. But my brother was there several months ago and said the downtown area was really booming. Atlanta has always been a wonderful city to me, so I might be a little bias, but from what I've seen, it doesn't look like things are that bad there.

#4 safly

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 11:34 AM

Why don't they just admit that SA has always been THA BIG PESCADO!!!!

Sorry. That sounded a bit tooo NACHO LIBRE! tongue.gif
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#5 Malt

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 11:29 PM

Now I can order pescado in SA and know what to look forward to tasting.

"Not unless they "go out there and put Hartsfield (-Jackson International Airport, the USA's busiest) on wheels and roll it up the interstate," says Sam Williams, president of the Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce. "Our competition is not the Charlottes and Nashvilles. Our competition is Frankfurt and Singapore and Shanghai. ... The Southeast is like a great big curved mirror. The focal point of that mirror is Atlanta."

Pure comedy.

Shame their state's university mascot isn't the same as a neighboring state for some more who's bigger comparisons.

#6 safly

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 12:37 PM

Is that a EUPHEMISM??? dry.gif huh.gif
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#7 Malt

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 02:36 PM

Not at all.

Don't want to offend those that brought me into the world.

San Antonio is my birthplace.


Go NCAA Gators btw, or is that the wrong state?

#8 safly

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 08:30 PM

I thought you were reffering to that SC mascot. mellow.gif

And I don't mean Southern Cal. Hee heehee.


laugh.gif
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#9 Dallastar

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 08:46 PM

I felt this article was interesting because they talk about a lot of the same things we talk about on this board with the comparison's, and who has the biggest population and tallest building. But I also found it interesting that Nashville has a much larger population than Atlanta, but Atlanta is more popular, more jobs, and more economic development and construction by far. So I say, let Nashville have their taller building if that's what make them happy, I don't think Atlanta will be crying. We all have to do something to feel important.

#10 Yossarian

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 10:48 AM

QUOTE
We all have to do something to feel important.


How true.....Calatrava.....

#11 Dallastar

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 12:00 PM

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jun 19 2006, 11:48 AM) View Post

QUOTE
We all have to do something to feel important.


How true.....Calatrava.....



I have to agree with you Yos, because Dallas doesn't need "Signature Bridges" it already has a "Signature Downtown" being one of the most recognized in the world. I think thats why there going back to the drawing board and realized it's not worth spending that amount of money, when they don't need too.

But there are some other cities I dare not name, that has to try to do anything possible to get noticed.

#12 Yossarian

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 12:09 PM

Sorry star, it was just too much of a hanging curveball not to swing. You know, if Dallas paid for just the I30 and I35 bridges across the Trinity to be upgraded a little, I think that that would definitely add to the view of Dallas. But the suspension bridges are a little much.

QUOTE
But there are some other cities I dare not name, that has to try to do anything possible to get noticed.


Please; when have you ever held your tongue. But you are definitely correct.

#13 Dallastar

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 12:23 PM


Please; when have you ever held your tongue. But you are definitely correct.
[/quote]



Yos, I'm trying to turn a new leaf. And be more respectful tongue.gif

#14 cjyoung

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 01:23 PM

QUOTE(Dallastar @ Jun 18 2006, 09:46 PM) View Post

I felt this article was interesting because they talk about a lot of the same things we talk about on this board with the comparison's, and who has the biggest population and tallest building. But I also found it interesting that Nashville has a much larger population than Atlanta, but Atlanta is more popular, more jobs, and more economic development and construction by far. So I say, let Nashville have their taller building if that's what make them happy, I don't think Atlanta will be crying. We all have to do something to feel important.


Too bad no no one in Fort Worth (except a few crazies from the Fort Worth Forum cheeburga.gif ) has the desire to step forward like Nashville.

#15 Willy1

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 01:45 PM

Wouldn't it be nice if FW was experiencing the same type of building boom as Nashville, Charolotte, Atlanta, or even Dallas? We have the huge population boom going on, but we don't have much to show for it other than suburban sprawl.

#16 vjackson

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 02:29 PM

QUOTE(Dallastar @ Jun 19 2006, 01:00 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jun 19 2006, 11:48 AM) View Post

QUOTE
We all have to do something to feel important.


How true.....Calatrava.....



I have to agree with you Yos, because Dallas doesn't need "Signature Bridges" it already has a "Signature Downtown" being one of the most recognized in the world. I think thats why there going back to the drawing board and realized it's not worth spending that amount of money, when they don't need too.

But there are some other cities I dare not name, that has to try to do anything possible to get noticed.


I think the Calatrava bridges are a terrible waste of time and resources, but to say Dallas is doing it to feel important is not necessarily true. Eyecatching signature projects help carve a city's identity and showcases the city's creativity. I'm sure the Golden Gate Bridge in San Fran could have just been built with plain, drab, concrete. And Millenium Park in Chicago would still be a park without all the monuments and fancy modern fountains and gardens. The thing about many cities in Texas is there is little natural topographical beauty, so the skylines, greenspace, man-made lakes, and other architecutural elements are what distinguishes one Texas city from the next. Fort Worth is not a beautiful city, IMHO, but the TRV will help add some "natural'' beauty where there is none, and it will probably become more of a memorable part of the city, than its forgettable skyline. I don't think it really has much to do with FW trying to feel important.

#17 Yossarian

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 02:36 PM

QUOTE
I'm sure the Golden Gate Bridge in San Fran could have just been built with plain, drab, concrete.


Actually, its form was just about the only way to span that gap. But I think I understand your point. As much as I like Fort Worth, I do have to admit that it can be a rather unattractive city. Flying in the weekend before last (and before last weekend's rains) the city was looking pretty dry and peaked from 2500 feet.

#18 vjackson

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 02:40 PM

QUOTE(Willy1 @ Jun 19 2006, 02:45 PM) View Post

Wouldn't it be nice if FW was experiencing the same type of building boom as Nashville, Charolotte, Atlanta, or even Dallas? We have the huge population boom going on, but we don't have much to show for it other than suburban sprawl.


Ain't that the truth. I drove with friends from FW to Southlake last week and it's been ages since I've been north of DTFW. The sprawl is horrible and not to mention very unattractive. Just tract subdivision after tract subdivision, strip centers , chain retail and restuarants, all surrounded by seas of surface parking. I couldn't believe it. It's great that FW is doing some urban development, but surburban sprawl is the easy winner as FW's development of choice.

#19 Yossarian

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 02:56 PM

QUOTE
Just tract subdivision after tract subdivision, strip centers , chain retail and restuarants, all surrounded by seas of surface parking.


Interesting observation. I think the same was true of N. Dallas until the mid 80's. Jonny made the point once that he though that cities had to grow "out" until they can start to grow "up". I think he was correct. I hope that that observation bears out for Fort Worth as it has for Dallas.

#20 vjackson

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 03:16 PM

^^^^^
And I would give you that, but Dallas' sprawl was in the 80's, way before the big mix-use urban development movement that many cities are embracing. Even now in Dallas, the surburban areas around the Galleria is being demolished and revamped into urban mixed -use style developments. Many cities are attempting to curb sprawl by encourging more urban style developments, even surburbs are doing it. FW doesn't seem to be doing that and seems to just allow the standard surburban type sprawl to continue. Or are you saying FW is going to allow this urban sprawl to continue, only to go back in 20 years and tear it down and start over again. I'm aware there's always going to be a need for subdivisions and strip centers, but FW doesn't seem to offering much alternative.

#21 Yossarian

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 03:43 PM

QUOTE
And I would give you that, but Dallas' sprawl was in the 80's,


Dallas' sprawl began in the 60's. It was not until the 80's that any semblance of "urbanization" began.

Fort Worth (the city) is not doing anything - although I will grant you that FW's zoning ordinances/setback requirements/parking ratio demands are not the most progressive in encouraging "urban" development. The developers are building what they can get a reasonable return on today. Just as the developers of a good deal of N. Dallas did 30-45 years ago. The market today is sufficient to allow for denser development in those areas of Dallas as well as Uptown. A few years ago I was talking with a guy who used to be Ed Wulfe's point man on retail projects and he outlined that very fact. As an example he highlighted a "strip center' at Post Oak and San Felipe in Houston (arguably among the most desireable locations in Texas) and what rates today would allow for. Today, Wulfe is putting this into the spot.

IPB Image

It was not completely feasible 5-10 years ago.

#22 vjackson

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 04:53 PM

QUOTE(Dallastar @ Jun 18 2006, 09:46 PM) View Post

But I also found it interesting that Nashville has a much larger population than Atlanta


That really surprised me too. From what I remember of Nashville, Atlanta seems much, much bigger.

#23 Now in Denton

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 04:53 PM

QUOTE(Dallastar @ Jun 18 2006, 09:46 PM) View Post

I felt this article was interesting because they talk about a lot of the same things we talk about on this board with the comparison's, and who has the biggest population and tallest building. But I also found it interesting that Nashville has a much larger population than Atlanta, but Atlanta is more popular, more jobs, and more economic development and construction by far. So I say, let Nashville have their taller building if that's what make them happy, I don't think Atlanta will be crying. We all have to do something to feel important.



Are we reading between the lines on the above post about..... oh let say...... Fort Worth and Dallas? rotflmao.gif

#24 Now in Denton

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 05:00 PM

QUOTE(vjackson @ Jun 19 2006, 03:40 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Willy1 @ Jun 19 2006, 02:45 PM) View Post

Wouldn't it be nice if FW was experiencing the same type of building boom as Nashville, Charolotte, Atlanta, or even Dallas? We have the huge population boom going on, but we don't have much to show for it other than suburban sprawl.


Ain't that the truth. I drove with friends from FW to Southlake last week and it's been ages since I've been north of DTFW. The sprawl is horrible and not to mention very unattractive. Just tract subdivision after tract subdivision, strip centers , chain retail and restuarants, all surrounded by seas of surface parking. I couldn't believe it. It's great that FW is doing some urban development, but surburban sprawl is the easy winner as FW's development of choice.


So very untrue. That hate you have. Is going to eat your life out of you.

#25 Dallastar

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 05:19 PM

QUOTE(Now in Denton @ Jun 19 2006, 05:53 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Dallastar @ Jun 18 2006, 09:46 PM) View Post

I felt this article was interesting because they talk about a lot of the same things we talk about on this board with the comparison's, and who has the biggest population and tallest building. But I also found it interesting that Nashville has a much larger population than Atlanta, but Atlanta is more popular, more jobs, and more economic development and construction by far. So I say, let Nashville have their taller building if that's what make them happy, I don't think Atlanta will be crying. We all have to do something to feel important.



Are we reading between the lines on the above post about..... oh let say...... Fort Worth and Dallas? rotflmao.gif



Ahh, you caught that Now in Denton smile.gif

#26 John T Roberts

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 05:31 PM

QUOTE(vjackson @ Jun 19 2006, 04:16 PM) View Post

Many cities are attempting to curb sprawl by encourging more urban style developments, even surburbs are doing it. FW doesn't seem to be doing that and seems to just allow the standard surburban type sprawl to continue.


I think our civic and political leaders are to blame for much of this.

#27 safly

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 09:34 PM

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jun 19 2006, 03:56 PM) View Post

QUOTE
Just tract subdivision after tract subdivision, strip centers , chain retail and restuarants, all surrounded by seas of surface parking.


Interesting observation. I think the same was true of N. Dallas until the mid 80's. Jonny made the point once that he though that cities had to grow "out" until they can start to grow "up". I think he was correct. I hope that that observation bears out for Fort Worth as it has for Dallas.



If so, then explain CHICAGO'S growth and development. It seems that it has ALWAYS been a vertical town, then sprawl going north and west.
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#28 Yossarian

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 07:47 AM

Saf:

Chi-town grew "up" early due to much of its early growth occuring prior to the advent of the automobile, particularly mass ownership of such. Cities whose growth has predominantly taken place post WWII (the beginning of mass auto ownership) have grown out then up, re LA, Houston, Atlanta, Dallas, Phoenix (the ultimate example in that it has less verticality {other than natural} than even Fort Worth). So I guess the out before up is better applied to post WWII growth cities.

#29 cjyoung

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 08:57 AM

QUOTE(vjackson @ Jun 19 2006, 05:53 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Dallastar @ Jun 18 2006, 09:46 PM) View Post

But I also found it interesting that Nashville has a much larger population than Atlanta


That really surprised me too. From what I remember of Nashville, Atlanta seems much, much bigger.


We all know that city populations don't really matter. There are 5 million in the Atlanta metro vs 1.2 million in Nashville. There are almost 2 million in Fort Worth-Arlington.




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