59 replies to this topic

[Austin55]

This isn't anything new but I thought was worth bringing up. If you aren't familiar, Veale Ranch is set on 

 

Here's the listing - https://www.loopnet....rth-TX/9433652/

[Jeriat]

I predict more cookie-cutter housing, strip malls and box stores... oh, and storage facilities. 

(also, your acreage link takes us to the Jordanian/Saudi Arabian border.)

[Austin55]

(also, your acreage link takes us to the Jordanian/Saudi Arabian border.)

 

I have a real issue with that. 

 

https://www.google.c...3!4d-97.5371727

[renamerusk]

Not anything new; but is this now a new listing or a listing that is not faring so well?

[JBB]

I would assume that they would have liked it to sell faster.  At the same time, I don't know that it's unusual for large parcels like this to stay on the market for years.

 

Does the property extend to 377?  It looks like it has pretty poor access to 20 at this point.  I would hope that FW would run the other direction from annexing this one, but I'm sure the "all development is good" crowd would foam at the mouth and go into a coma if they let it go.

[John T Roberts]

The property does not extend to U.S. 377.  The only highways that it touches are R.M. 2871 and F.M. 1187.  The main access to the site will be on Aledo Road, which is a 2 lane asphalt county road.  However, the City of Fort Worth's Master Thoroughfare Plan gives it a 110' right-of-way.  The property will not have access to I-20, except that Walsh Ranch Blvd. is scheduled to eventually be extended to Aledo Rd.  Since this land has the Fort Worth City Limits on two sides of it and sits within the Fort Worth ETJ, I'm pretty sure it will be annexed into the city. 

[Austin55]

Also of note, it's the 11th most expensive property in all of the US on Loopnet, a commercial real estate listing website.  The next most expensive property is a pair of lots totaling 22 acres at the South end of the Las Vegas strip for $2 less. 

[renamerusk]

.....Since this land has the Fort Worth City Limits on two sides of it and sits within the Fort Worth ETJ, I'm pretty sure it will be annexed into the city. 

 

IMO, the city should cease any further annexation indefinitely.
 

[elpingüino]

Here's an interactive map of the property.
https://mapright.com...ff4ef1e3b/share

[ramjet]

I predict more cookie-cutter housing, strip malls and box stores... oh, and storage facilities. 
 

Good for social distancing...

[RD Milhollin]

Punched full of gas wells, should not be zoneable for residential.

[Austin55]

Punched full of gas wells, should not be zoneable for residential.

 

No homes without 300 feet of a well, otherwise it's good to go. 

[RD Milhollin]

I don't think 300' would be enough to dissipate a gas well failure. Or a poison gas leak on a wet day. Gas companies wrote the zoning though...

[JBB]

I ask this with true sincerity: Is that a real huge risk?  Is there a pattern involving accidents of that nature involving gas wells in the Barnett Shale with serious property damage or injury?  I ask because I honestly haven't heard of it happening.  I would imagine you're at a much higher risk living in an older neighborhood with aged gas delivery infrastructure and equipment that is in dire need of replacement.  Accidents involving that happen quite frequently.

[roverone]

I think with being close to wells there is always the concern that the leak of the raw gas might contain other more dangerous gasses beyond what we call natural gas.

 

I don't know if that is the case in the Barnett Shale area, but I sure would not want to be be located too close to something that might leak benzene, for example.

[renamerusk]

I ask this with true sincerity: Is that a real huge risk?  Is there a pattern involving accidents of that nature involving gas wells in the Barnett Shale with serious property damage or injury?  I ask because I honestly haven't heard of it happening.  I would imagine you're at a much higher risk living in an older neighborhood with aged gas delivery infrastructure and equipment that is in dire need of replacement.  Accidents involving that happen quite frequently.

 

First, the science is unsettled whether or whether not gas associated with fracking seeps into the ground water and causes the taps in a house to generate flames.  If I were purchasing, I would likely take the view that it does.  I would also consider the distinct possibility that I am purchasing my house in a potential brownfield with all the ramifications that that entails.

 

As for natural gas, it is the responsibility of the NG Provider to replace and maintain its gas lines; and the new homes presumably would be constructed with materials of today's standard.

 

If one minimizes the water issue, it is quite likely that the houses on this land will experience frequent earthquakes with some of them causing extensive damage which have in turn been closely associated with fracking:

 

Scientific America https://www.scientif...ps-quakes-wont/
 

[bclaridge]

If one minimizes the water issue, it is quite likely that the houses on this land will experience frequent earthquakes with some of them causing extensive damage which have in turn been closely associated with fracking:

 

Scientific America https://www.scientif...ps-quakes-wont/

If there is wastewater injection occurring in the area that is capable of causing earthquakes capable of "extensive damage," that would really be a concern for a much wider swath of the metro.  I know there was a period where there were some small earthquakes occurring in and around the DFW metro, but none of them really caused any damage to my understanding.

The same is not true for Oklahoma, however, but I suspect their geology is different and more "primed" for earthquakes.  Since their wastewater injection earthquake problems got started, the largest earthquake up there was a magnitude 5.8, which caused major damage in a few places (I don't think DFW has seen anything above a 4.0).  Even without human activity, there is a fault near Lawton (the Meers Fault) that has produced at least two magnitude ~7.0 (or perhaps greater) earthquakes within the last 3,000 years.  You can even see the Meers Fault scarp from the air (one of the few faults, perhaps the only fault, east of the Western states where the fault rupture can be seen at the surface).  Should the Meers Fault rupture anytime soon, I suspect we would see at least some damage here in the DFW area, though the damage would be more severe closer to the fault rupture (particularly around Lawton, and to a lesser extent in Wichita Falls).

[renamerusk]

I do not know if Veale Ranch actually was a hot spot for fracking in the past, so I'm merely speculating.
 

However, I think anyone who is planning to purchase in an area that has been peppered with fracking to extract NG should be made aware of this before taking out a mortgage.  But from a insurers viewpoint, earthquakes are not specifically covered, just some of the things that usually happen as a result of an earthquake.  I also have a feeling that the earthquakes that we in DFW have been experiencing are pinpointed within a relatively small area near and within the fracking hot spots.  So that might make Veale Ranch ground zero and the rest of us relatively safe from tremors.

 

What I don't like about this development among many things is that it will more than likely cause rates within Tarrant County, regardless of where you live, to spike and be higher.  Insurers model is to spread the cost among all the insured.

 

So I like to come with receipts, and here what I could find -

https://www.lemonade...over-earthquake

[NThomas]

Steve Brown at The Dallas Morning News wrote an article this morning about the sale of Veale Ranch:

 

https://www.dallasne...tial-community/

 

The buyer is PMB Capital, the developer of the adjacent subdivision to the east, Ventana. Also, the proposed site for Rivian is directly to the north on Walsh Ranch property.

 

[Stadtplan]

LJA Engineering filed early grading permits for Ventana last week with CoFW:

 

6A1: https://accela.fortw...ShowInspection=

 

6A2: https://accela.fortw...ShowInspection=

 

(Steve Bowen has been doing a good job grabbing some of these big property deals in FW...I think he ran the first story on Burnett Plaza sale back in April.)

[Urbndwlr]

 

.....Since this land has the Fort Worth City Limits on two sides of it and sits within the Fort Worth ETJ, I'm pretty sure it will be annexed into the city. 

 

IMO, the city should cease any further annexation indefinitely.
 

 

you realize that wouldnt stop development and sprawl right?  unincorporated areas have no development control whatsoever aside from 1 acre lot minimums.

[elpingüino]

Continued coverage of the Veale Ranch development in the Dallas Morning News.
New North Texas communities on the way will bring sites for thousands of homes

The developer says Veale Ranch will have a major commercial district on the north side of the property toward Interstate 20. "truly a mixed-use commercial community ... As much as a third of the land could be commercial when we are finished - retail, office and industrial."

[Jeriat]

Continued coverage of the Veale Ranch development in the Dallas Morning News.
New North Texas communities on the way will bring sites for thousands of homes

The developer says Veale Ranch will have a major commercial district on the north side of the property toward Interstate 20. "truly a mixed-use commercial community ... As much as a third of the land could be commercial when we are finished - retail, office and industrial."

I don't know how to feel about this.

[Doohickie]

I don't know how to feel about this.

You don't have to feel anything.

[elpingüino]

Fort Worth Report,
Fort Worth going west with new growth from ranch land

5,000 homes over 15 years.

[Stadtplan]

Wow, look at all those gas well setbacks and a 300-foot overhead power line easement cutting right through it too.

[Presidio Interests]

I think it would be a vast improvement if more of our new neighborhood development were on grids.  Even a more gridded design would be an improvement vs these disconnected cellular development patterns.  These cellular patterns channel all the vehicular traffic onto arteries, creating traffic bottlenecks there,  and they make pedestrian and cyclist travel between neighborhoods next to impossible.  Look at our pre-WWII neighborhoods vs new areas such as this or in far northwest FW.

 

I'm aware of home buyer and home builder momentum.  I understand that home builders prefer lots on dead-end streets and those that have low and slow traffic.  I'm convinced there are ways to design street grids (and design teams who know how) where the traffic is diluted across the grid so that each street has low and slow traffic.  They would still have arterials, but those streets would not have to carry 100% of the load as they do in these conventional cellular development designs. 

 

Its going to be too late before long.

[mmmdan]

I agree with the sentiment of neighborhoods needing to be built more grid like with more connections.  In Fort Worth I have lived in Ridglea North, Ridglea Hills, and Fairmount.  Ridglea Hills is a transition neighborhood between the old walkable grid neighborhoods and completely unwalkable modern neighborhoods.  Ridglea Hills has the utilities in the backyards, but without an alley, and while several of the roads can be fairly long between intersecting roads, there are still a lot of connections.  Ridglea Hills is about the limit of where I would want to live in terms of connectivity.

 

It's nice having multiple entry points into the neighborhood and it's nice to have options on how to get around within the neighborhood instead of being funneled onto the same road as everyone else.

 

Here's a fun article about what is possibly the largest distance someone would have to travel door to door to visit their backyard neighbor.

https://usa.streetsb...miles-of-roads/

[Presidio Interests]

I like your examples using Ridglea North and Ridglea Hills. 

 

I've read, perhaps here on the FWF, that both Bastrop and Laredo have laid down grids for future growth around their edges. Links below.  So we can't say its impossible in Texas.  I'm sure its not simple to impose this but the longer we wait, the harder it will be.  It would need some degree of flexibility to work around topography, existing homes and to tie into existing neighborhood roads where possible.

 

Are there any strong reasons NOT to do this? 

 

https://www.cnu.org/...t-grid-and-code

 

https://www.cityofla...n-comp-plan.pdf

[mmmdan]

The only reasons not to do it is fear that developers will say that it is too expensive/too hard and therefore they will not continue to develop our sprawl and the fear that people will not want to live in a neighborhood that is based on a grid because there will be too much traffic on "my street," or it will not be safe for my kids to play in the street because I now don't have a publicly funded private park, aka cul-de-sac, or it will be too easy for the people that don't belong in my neighborhood to enter my neighborhood and do bad things.

 

If the city truly ran the numbers and saw which types of developments actually pay for themselves in terms of city services, the city would encourage building on a grid and infill over sprawl.

[Doohickie]

Are there any strong reasons NOT to do this?

NIMBY/market pressures.

[WTXKid]

The city needs to take control of the conversation. They could always amend the development code. Honestly, kind of sad about this. 4000+ acres of beautiful prairie land about to be bulldozed. I wonder if 1000 acres of open space is enough to absorb the amount of runoff that is going to be created by this development. 

[WTXKid]

I'd like to see half of the acreage as open space. It would like something from Austin. 

[WTXKid]

Honestly though, is anyone else worried about climate change and the urban heat island effect/inner city high water/water quality/water supply? I grew up in San Angelo for most of my life. Fifteen years ago, the climate felt completely different. Today, the local news station reported on the second dust storm in the West Texas region. I've since relocated to San Antonio and the city is suffering from a major drought (Edwards aquifer is at its lowest level ever recorded). My neighbor has a community garden and his vegetables are burning from the Sun. I don't think it is going to be long before DFW starts to feel the effects of "endless growth for growth's sake." I think we could solve our way out of our future water and heat issues through better land use patterns and design. But it is probably going to take mass migration before we are motivated enough to change our behavior. 

Just concerned. 

[Jeriat]

Honestly though, is anyone else worried about climate change and the urban heat island effect/inner city high water/water quality/water supply? I grew up in San Angelo for most of my life. Fifteen years ago, the climate felt completely different. Today, the local news station reported on the second dust storm in the West Texas region. I've since relocated to San Antonio and the city is suffering from a major drought (Edwards aquifer is at its lowest level ever recorded). My neighbor has a community garden and his vegetables are burning from the Sun. I don't think it is going to be long before DFW starts to feel the effects of "endless growth for growth's sake." I think we could solve our way out of our future water and heat issues through better land use patterns and design. But it is probably going to take mass migration before we are motivated enough to change our behavior. 

Just concerned. 

 

Always... but we live in a state that doesn't seem to value that, so...

[Big Frog II]

Way too little land set aside for parks.

[Austin55]

It sounds like Veale Ranch will get a TIF/PID

 

https://fortworthgov...ptions=&Search=

[Stadtplan]

It sounds like Veale Ranch will get a TIF/PID

 

https://fortworthgov...ptions=&Search=

 

Drainage Study Filed 2/14/23:

 

https://accela.fortw...ShowInspection=

 

Land Disturbance Area (Acres): 3,793

[Jeriat]

It sounds like Veale Ranch will get a TIF/PID

 

https://fortworthgov...ptions=&Search=

 

I'd rather this just be its own town or an extension of Aledo... but it is what it is. 

[Urbndwlr]

Honestly though, is anyone else worried about climate change and the urban heat island effect/inner city high water/water quality/water supply? I grew up in San Angelo for most of my life. Fifteen years ago, the climate felt completely different. Today, the local news station reported on the second dust storm in the West Texas region. I've since relocated to San Antonio and the city is suffering from a major drought (Edwards aquifer is at its lowest level ever recorded). My neighbor has a community garden and his vegetables are burning from the Sun. I don't think it is going to be long before DFW starts to feel the effects of "endless growth for growth's sake." I think we could solve our way out of our future water and heat issues through better land use patterns and design. But it is probably going to take mass migration before we are motivated enough to change our behavior. 

Just concerned. 

Yes, definitely concerned about climate change and our current suburban development patterns are just us (humanity) repeating our mistakes. 

Because attempting something that would be legally impossible or a 180 degree turn from what the industry builds, I'm very in favor of incremental improvement that works within current regulatory enviro and with existing industry participants.

 

I would LOVE to see Veale Ranch become 50% or more open natural space but Im afraid that effort should have started 10 years ago.  Now is time to focus efforts on the NEXT family-owned property before it is sold at top dollar to a company that very much expects to be able to develop it. 

 

If the tried to impose a 50% open space requirement at this point, the new land owners (developers) would have a strong legal case against the city since the city would be "taking" without compensation.

 

I think 2 efforts could make a huge impact on this important topic you've raised: preservation of remaining natural/open space:

 

1) Conservation easements:  you/we/local people contact land conservancies and find out what the process is to encourage large local land owners to sell/contribute parts of ranches to those.  What are the scenarios, opportunites, incentives to current owners, how do properties qualify...  Just one big one could make a massive impact.  

2)  Influence the future land use via City of FW Comprehensive Plan:  Review the comprehensive plan, including within the ETJ.  See where these open spaces SHOULD be on future outlying places.  Formally submit suggestions to city staff (better if you get more people to do the same) that X and Y locations should be planned as long term regional open spaces (whatever the term is).  That formally influences the long-term expectation of what zoning or land use is appropriate there.  If shows as single family residential, those land owners and new buyers will assume (rightfully) that is could be easily zoned for that use in the future.

[JBB]

"Why can't we lure big companies downtown?" says the city that gives a handout to a massive single family development that's halfway to Granbury and would likely be built without a visit from the sprawl welcome wagon.

[mmmdan]

I wonder how much of this development would occur if the city wasn't so willing to suck it all up and annex every square inch it can get.

 

If a place like this, or Walsh, had to stand on their own, or be a part of the growth of their real neighbor city, I imagine their growth might be a little bit different.

 

I also wonder how much these people will really identify as being a citizen of Fort Worth.  There's a good chance they won't have a Fort Worth zip code, their kids won't be going to FWISD schools, etc.

 

I wish I had cut out an article in the paper from like 20 years ago where they interviewed people who lived in far north Fort Worth, and they didn't even realize for a few years that they actually lived in Fort Worth for the reasons I mentioned above.

[elpingüino]

There's a good chance they won't have a Fort Worth zip code, their kids won't be going to FWISD schools, etc.

Here's an interactive map of the property.
https://mapright.com...ff4ef1e3b/share

We can figure out some of these already. Most if not all of the development will be in 76126, which is Fort Worth:
https://www.unitedst...odes.org/76126/

The eastern third, maybe as much as a half, will be in Fort Worth ISD: https://www.fwisd.or...main/148/d7.jpg

[JBB]

I wonder how much of this development would occur if the city wasn't so willing to suck it all up and annex every square inch it can get.

 

 

You took my point about whether or not it would happen without incentives a step further.  It's fair to suggest that the city is already subsidizing this type of development through annexation since its value rarely covers the infrastructure and service costs.

[Stadtplan]

Every once in a while, I need a reminder specifically what is a TIF and how does it work?  Here's some info:

 

 

TIF is a type of public financing tool that is used to fund redevelopment projects in blighted or economically distressed areas. The way it works is that a TIF district is established, and the property tax revenue generated within that district is frozen at the current level. Any incremental increase in property tax revenue resulting from new development within the district is then diverted into a special fund, known as the TIF fund.

 

The funds in the TIF fund are then used to finance public improvements, such as infrastructure upgrades, environmental remediation, and other projects that will benefit the district as a whole. The idea behind TIF is that by investing in these improvements, property values will increase, and more development will be attracted to the area, leading to further increases in property tax revenue.

 

In Fort Worth, TIF districts are established through a process that involves the City Council and the TIF Board. The City Council approves the creation of the TIF district, and the TIF Board is responsible for administering the TIF program and approving projects to be funded with TIF funds.

[Stadtplan]

 

Every once in a while, I need a reminder specifically what is a TIF and how does it work?  Here's some info:

 

 

TIF is a type of public financing tool that is used to fund redevelopment projects in blighted or economically distressed areas. The way it works is that a TIF district is established, and the property tax revenue generated within that district is frozen at the current level. Any incremental increase in property tax revenue resulting from new development within the district is then diverted into a special fund, known as the TIF fund.

 

The funds in the TIF fund are then used to finance public improvements, such as infrastructure upgrades, environmental remediation, and other projects that will benefit the district as a whole. The idea behind TIF is that by investing in these improvements, property values will increase, and more development will be attracted to the area, leading to further increases in property tax revenue.

 

In Fort Worth, TIF districts are established through a process that involves the City Council and the TIF Board. The City Council approves the creation of the TIF district, and the TIF Board is responsible for administering the TIF program and approving projects to be funded with TIF funds.

 

 

Some more AI-generated info on TIF's:

 

 

As of September 2021, there were 14 Tax Increment Financing (TIF) districts in the city of Fort Worth, Texas. These districts were established over the course of several years, with the first TIF being created in 1991.

 

Each TIF district in Fort Worth has its own boundaries, goals, and funding priorities. Some of the TIF districts are focused on specific areas or neighborhoods, while others cover larger parts of the city. The TIF districts in Fort Worth have been used to fund a wide range of public improvements, including infrastructure projects, parks and green spaces, affordable housing, and more.

 

It's important to note that the number and boundaries of TIF districts in Fort Worth may change over time as new districts are created or existing ones are modified or retired. For the latest information on TIF districts in Fort Worth, I would recommend checking the website of the City of Fort Worth's Economic Development Department or contacting the department directly.

 

From the City Website: https://www.fortwort...nts/econdev/tif

TIF 2: Speedway

TIF 3: Downtown

TIF 4: Southside/Medical District

TIF 6: Riverfront

TIF 8: Lancaster

TIF 9: Trinity River Vision

TIF 10: Lone Star

TIF 12: East Berry Renaissance

TIF 13: Woodhaven

TIF 14: Trinity Lakes

TIF 15: Stockyards / Northside

[elpingüino]

Lots of Veale Ranch coverage in the news this week, seemingly everywhere but the Star-Telegram.

Bisnow, Vast Development Potential Unlocked On Fort Worth's West Side With Approval Of Special Taxing Districts

FW Report, West Fort Worth ranch could become center for economic development

Dallas Business Journal, Fort Worth considers creation of TIF covering 5,200 acres in western side of city

[johnfwd]

Based on my reading of the Fort Worth Report, the city's tax incentives are focused on infrastructure improvements in this vast, mainly extraterrestrial tract, being outside the city's corporate limits.  The aim is to attract major companies to build industrial and manufacturing plants on the 5,200 acres.  Nothing was said about residential subdivisions.  Some of us here cry when big corporations (like Rivian) eschew Fort Worth in favor of re-locating to Dallas and other cities.  Our city is exercising sound foresight in creating this TIF district.

[JBB]

Based on my reading of the Fort Worth Report, the city's tax incentives are focused on infrastructure improvements in this vast, mainly extraterrestrial tract, being outside the city's corporate limits.  

 

While I see the benefits in some tax incentives, I don't think they should be used for developments on other planets.

[Stadtplan]

Record PP-24-008: 

Preliminary Plat

Record Status: Applied

 

https://aca-prod.acc...ShowInspection=

 

Project Description:

Veale South PP

PP for 175 single-family lots and 15 private open space lots