128 replies to this topic

[renamerusk]

 

This is what was shown to the TM board...

 

 

 

 

 

Trinity Metro is acting like a real estate company? Trinity Metro doesn't even own this land.....That said, I will say Trinity Metro dropped the ball at North Side Station by not designing and treating it as a bus transfer hub.

 

 

How would Trinity Metro benefit from the sale of property it doesn't own?

 

  Well you start with something like this - Katy Lofts and adjacent Hotel.

 

  Now, I approve of TOD in general; but sometimes it is critical to know where TOD make sense and when it doesn't.

 

  Recently, I asked Tarrant Transit Alliance (TTA) to delist my name from its rolls after researching the backgrounds of its directors, administrators and organizational members.  TTA could be described as a subsidiary of Trinity Metro ™ and the Tarrant County Board of Realtors, the Chamber of Commerce, Sundance Square Corp. and a variety of institutions who seemingly have little in common with one another or with public transit advocacy.  This is quite anecdoctal, but it serves as a small eye opening window into the agenda of this organization.

 

Back to my suspicions that TM is acting on two fronts and that it sometimes those two fronts are at cross odds with one another.

 

It is also anecdoctal, but revelatory that TM made the deliberate decision not to place a station to serve the Stockyards where it would neither own land for a TOD or where it would have to share any economic benefit with the Stockyards and instead decided to place a station to serve the Near North Fort Worth at NE28@Decatur where possibly it may actually own land (this I haven't proof of).  Now a site adjacent to the North Fort Worth Station is being listed, ironically suggesting it is practically a part of the Stockyards.  I would suggest to you that in this case, TM acted more as a broker than a transit agency when it deliberately chose the 28th @ Decatur site over a site where thousands of riders could embark and disembark Tarrant Express Rail from within the Stockyards District.  To be cynical, I would think that the cozy affiliation between TTA and TM boards provides an pathway to benefit several insiders.

 

It is also anecdoctal, but revelatory that TM/DART are acting more as brokers than transit agencies when they established a station in the middle of a pasture.  One may reasonably assume that the unimproved land surrounding the North DFW Station is owned by the two agencies and at some point will be marketed to developers.

 

I will repeat myself by saying that in general I support TOD when and where it is appropriate; and when it is not, then I will express my concerns and criticism.  When I say that evidence for my allegation is right before our eyes, such as a station without buses, then there lies the proof.

[JBB]

 

Progress on the Grapevine project.   The garage is mostly complete, hotel sits behind this building and is slightly further along.  This building will house a food hall and the 150 foot clock tower will have a public observation deck.  That should offer a killer view of the airport, especially planes landing on the west side runways.

[rriojas71]

Nice. I am a huge fan of Grapevine and I think this will compliment its own town and Texrail quite nicely

[Jeriat]

Nice. I am a huge fan of Grapevine and I think this will compliment its own town and Texrail quite nicely

If only certain other towns in DFW could follow . . . 

[John T Roberts]

Jeriat, I agree with you. 

[Austin55]

The lot to the South of the Northside Station is going before zoning,

 

ZC-20-030_

This subject site is located at the southwest intersection of Decatur Avenue and SH 183, a Commercial

Connector on the Master Thoroughfare Plan. The applicant is requesting a zoning change from “K” Heavy

Industrial to “MU-1” Low Intensity Mixed-Use for a multifamily development.

The site is located across the street from the Northside TexRail Station. The subject site is also located in

an area that was part of a Technical Assistance Panel (TAP) that was conducted by the Urban Land

Institute (ULI). ULI members volunteer their time to help address specific land use challenges, in this case

it was the area surround the Northside TexRail station

 

 

 

Applicant is Gyant TOD LLC, affiliated with Baker Monroe.

[Jeriat]

 

The lot to the South of the Northside Station is going before zoning,

 

ZC-20-030_

This subject site is located at the southwest intersection of Decatur Avenue and SH 183, a Commercial

Connector on the Master Thoroughfare Plan. The applicant is requesting a zoning change from “K” Heavy

Industrial to “MU-1” Low Intensity Mixed-Use for a multifamily development.

The site is located across the street from the Northside TexRail Station. The subject site is also located in

an area that was part of a Technical Assistance Panel (TAP) that was conducted by the Urban Land

Institute (ULI). ULI members volunteer their time to help address specific land use challenges, in this case

it was the area surround the Northside TexRail station

 

 

 

Applicant is Gyant TOD LLC, affiliated with Baker Monroe.

 

 

That might help... but man, the more I think about it, the more I have to wonder why they didn't decide on the Stockyards route. 

[Dylan]

I'm not convinced Trinity Metro selected the 28th Street site for transit-oriented development possibilities that it won't benefit from.

 

I'm convinced Trinity Metro selected the 28th Street site because it was cheaper to build a station there than at the 23rd / Brennan Avenue site (requiring a costly pedestrian skybridge to be beneficial) or in the Stockyards itself (requiring even costlier flyover bridges).

[renamerusk]

I'm not convinced Trinity Metro selected the 28th Street site for transit-oriented development possibilities that it won't benefit from.

 

I'm convinced Trinity Metro selected the 28th Street site because it was cheaper to build a station there than at the 23rd / Brennan Avenue site (requiring a costly pedestrian skybridge to be beneficial) or in the Stockyards itself (requiring even costlier flyover bridges).

 I'm not sure what you are suggesting?  It is quite clear that TM made it decision based upon TOD opportunities for which it would retain control and would benefit from.

 

The Tarrant Express Rail route includes an existing flyover as well as a flyover/fly below to extend the route to the Medical District.

[JBB]

Not trying to speak for Dylan, but I don't think he's suggesting an aversion to flyovers, rather that they prioritized building them where they did based on the cost.  And he may be on to something, but the fact that there's some room for TOD around where the station end up likely made the decision easier.  

[Austin55]

I'm curious, would members of the forum be supportive of relocating the Northside station to the Brennan Ave site should the land ever become available? It's not even a half mile from current station but is absolutely better placed than the existing one is. I'd imagine the City or Stockyards TIF could pitch in to build a pedestrian bridge. 

[renamerusk]

Yet suggesting that flyovers are costly, and they can be, does not explain why TM does have a flyover and will have one or something even costlier to connect T&P with the Medical District.

 

I suspect the plain truth is that TM, rightfully or wrongfully, believes that it must couple transportation and real estate in its decisions. If the sole aim of Trinity Metro is transit, then it would have provided a station for a major tourist destination: FWSY. 

 

And if TM sole aim is transit, it would not be developing Trinity Lakes in Far East Fort Worth.

 

http://fortworthtexa.../EcoDev/TIF/14/

[JBB]

The fact that they built the flyovers they did or plan to in another project is irrelevant as to why they didn't build one at the Stockyards.  If the money wasn't there, it wasn't there and they prioritized doing it elsewhere (in the case of TexRail, over railyards and tracks not interested in sharing space with Trinity Metro).

 

Edit (I hope you see this before responding): To your point, they did save money on the construction of TexRail that could have been spent on the alternative route on the north side.  Whether or not it was enough to fund that is knowledge above my pay grade.

[renamerusk]

So how is it irrelevant?  There is and was surplus money at the end of phase 1 (Downtown to DFW Airport).   And of course, if the same railroads were not interested in sharing space with TM Downtown, you build a flyover,right? Why not build a flyover at FWSY?

The explanation I believe is that TM wanted it own TOD near FWSY and was not interested in partnering with FWSY.

 

TM most definitely seeks TOD and there is none better example than the North DFW Airport Station which is marketed as a highly desirable TOD near DFW Airport. 

[JBB]

See my edit.  You beat me to the punch.

[Austin55]

Even if the money is/was there, my understanding was that the whole reason everything got shifted around in the Northside anyway was due to FWWR actually owning the land/ROW and not wanting TEXRail to interfere with that. All the money in the world might not have been able to change their minds. Brennan wasn't "option 1A" for no reason. 

[txbornviking]

I'm curious, would members of the forum be supportive of relocating the Northside station to the Brennan Ave site should the land ever become available? It's not even a half mile from current station but is absolutely better placed than the existing one is. I'd imagine the City or Stockyards TIF could pitch in to build a pedestrian bridge. 

 

yes.

especially if the much ballyhooed redevelopment of the stockyards takes place

[renamerusk]

Yes the City could extend Exchange Avenue with a pedestrian causeway ending at a newly elevated platform for Tarrant Express Rail.

[Dylan]

I'm curious, would members of the forum be supportive of relocating the Northside station to the Brennan Ave site should the land ever become available? It's not even a half mile from current station but is absolutely better placed than the existing one is. I'd imagine the City or Stockyards TIF could pitch in to build a pedestrian bridge. 

 

Yes, if Trinity Metro were to also build a pedestrian bridge over the freight tracks.

 

Perhaps they could keep the existing North Side Station and not build any parking at the new Stockyards Station, so people don't park at the new station without riding the train.

[Electricron]

Let's pick a location in the stockyards most local citizens might wish to visit more frequently, how about Billy Bobs. 

How far is Billy Bobs away from the existing station at 28th Street, and how far would it be away from a new station proposed at 23rd Street?

Using Google Earth; Billy Bobs to 28th Street is 3600 feet, Billy Bobs to 23rd Street is 3000 feet - in both cases as a bird will fly and not following sidewalks on existing streets.  Yes, the difference is just 600 feet, two standard city blocks at 300 feet each. 

Per https://en.wikipedia...d_walking_speed

"Many people tend to walk at about  4.6 ft/s. Although many people are capable of walking at speeds upwards of  8.2 ft/s, especially for short distances, they typically choose not to. Individuals find slower or faster speeds uncomfortable."

Some math follows:

600 feet / 4.6 feet/second = 130 seconds (2 and 1/6 minutes) 

600 feet / 8.2 feet/second = 73 seconds (1 and 1/4 minute)

3000 feet / 4.6 feet/second = 652 seconds (10 and 5/6 minutes)

3000 feet / 8.2 feet/second = 366 seconds (6 and 1/10 minutes)

 

We're talking about ~13 minute walk vs ~11 minute walk. Is an extra 2 minutes going to kill you?

[renamerusk]

Having decided not to do the placement of the Northside/Stockyards Station at the Point of Interest Stockyards and the lack of public utility associated with the wrongness of its decision, TM is forced to defend itself for failing to do the obvious thing.  It was pointed out to TM from the beginning so that TM can not justify its choice other than it was hoping that TOD under its tutelage would be realized.

 

As anyone could tell you who is of Fort Worth and knows that area well, NE 28th Street is a highway and is not pedestrian friendly at all. Brennan Avenue is east of the railroad yards and it also is not pedestrian friendly.  Yeah, if people were crows, the distance between the Stockyards and either NE28th Street or Brennan Avenue is short flight. An anyone could tell you who is of Fort Worth and knows the Stockyards that Billy Bob's is just one attraction of the Stockyards and is not the primary reason why tourists flock to the FWSY.

 

The obvious solution is for Exchange Avenue to be extended as far east as possible so that a new more functional station can be installed which would ease and increase ridership between Downtown Fort Worth and the FWSY as well as ridership between Grapevine and FWSY.

[Dylan]

Let's pick a location in the stockyards most local citizens might wish to visit more frequently, how about Billy Bobs. 

How far is Billy Bobs away from the existing station at 28th Street, and how far would it be away from a new station proposed at 23rd Street?

Using Google Earth; Billy Bobs to 28th Street is 3600 feet, Billy Bobs to 23rd Street is 3000 feet - in both cases as a bird will fly and not following sidewalks on existing streets.  Yes, the difference is just 600 feet, two standard city blocks at 300 feet each. 

Per https://en.wikipedia...d_walking_speed

"Many people tend to walk at about  4.6 ft/s. Although many people are capable of walking at speeds upwards of  8.2 ft/s, especially for short distances, they typically choose not to. Individuals find slower or faster speeds uncomfortable."

Some math follows:

600 feet / 4.6 feet/second = 130 seconds (2 and 1/6 minutes) 

600 feet / 8.2 feet/second = 73 seconds (1 and 1/4 minute)

3000 feet / 4.6 feet/second = 652 seconds (10 and 5/6 minutes)

3000 feet / 8.2 feet/second = 366 seconds (6 and 1/10 minutes)

 

We're talking about ~13 minute walk vs ~11 minute walk. Is an extra 2 minutes going to kill you?

 

There are a couple of problems with this post.

 

First, Billy Bob's may be the largest single attraction in the Stockyards, but most Stockyards attractions are south of Billy Bob's, along Exchange Avenue. If you use Cowtown Coliseum as the central attraction (which is more in the middle of everything), and use walking distances rather than crow flying distances, the distance from TEXRail's North Side Station to the Stockyards is ~5400 feet, and the distance from a hypothetical Brennan Avenue/Exchange Avenue Station to the Stockyards is ~3200 feet.

 

5400 feet / 4.6 feet/second = 1174 seconds (Just over 19 minutes)

3200 feet / 4.6 feet/second = 696 seconds (Just over 11 minutes)

That's about an 8 minute difference. Perhaps a minute or two less difference if a hypothetical skybridge takes a minute or two to get up/down.

 

Second, this discussion about distances and time completely ignores walking conditions. 28th Street is hostile to pedestrians with poor sidewalks, grade changes, fast cars, and limited crosswalks. Even if the distances were equal, walking along 28th Street is unpleasant... and that's before you have to cut across a massive sprawling parking lot that will make you wish you drove instead.

[txbornviking]

Opening in September (or whatever "opening" means at this point in time), The Hotel Vin is adjacent to the downtown Grapevine TexRail station

https://fwtx.com/bus...tember-opening/

[txbornviking]

Has anyone had reason to check out the developments at the Iron Horse Station?
This is another place I've not had reason to go visit this past year but am curious how things have been taking shape.

[JBB]

I was headed home from work one day last week and thought about this same thing as I went by on 820.  I don't live far from there and it's been months since I went through that area.  I'll try to go through sometime soon and see if there's been any progress.

[Jeriat]

Has anyone had reason to check out the developments at the Iron Horse Station?
This is another place I've not had reason to go visit this past year but am curious how things have been taking shape.

I rode to Grapevine a couple weeks back and didnt really notice much.

...then again, I was kind of on a date, so I probably wouldn't notice anyway.

[Austin55]

If your date isnt interested in the intricacies and current status of transit oriented development along commuter rail lines than what fun is the date?

[JBB]

That is obviously the kind of pillow talk you save for the return trip from Grapevine.

[Jeriat]

In all seriousness, I did see some apartment work from what I can remember. But I don't expect too much to happen around that area for at least a few more months.

[Dylan]

Here's a site plan for Iron Horse Station. I believe pages 8 & 9 reflect the current plan: https://www.nctcog.o...8_TODTF_NRH.pdf

 

There are four components. Here are my observations from my daily TEXRail commute:

-Apartments adjacent to Iron Horse Station (page 12): no sign of work on this.

-Apartments south of Iron Horse Blvd (Cavalli at Iron Horse, page 18): Structures of these buildings are largely complete, but facades aren't on yet.

-Townhomes east of Browning Drive (page 25): These appear to be mostly complete- at least along the line itself.

-Apartments east of Iron Horse Station but north of Iron Horse Blvd (Fountains at Iron Horse, page 31): no sign of work on this.

[Dylan]

Meanwhile, I'm getting impatient waiting for Grapevine Main Plaza, Harvest Hall, and the observation tower to open.

 

They were originally supposed to open in September. Then, the opening was pushed back to October... then November... then December... now January. We'll see.

 

The good news is, they finally removed heavy machinery from the plaza yesterday or the day before, and removed tarps that were covering some fences.

 

I think the plaza is finally almost done, aside from laying brick pavement.

[Dylan]

It's February. Grapevine Main Plaza and Harvest Hall are still not done.

At the plaza, there are still porta-potties for construction workers on site and the ground is still dirt where it's supposed to be brick.

[Austin55]

FWTX had a quick blurb on the delays.

 

https://fwtx.com/eat...pening-delayed/

[Dylan]

Update: Heavy machinery has returned to Grapevine Main Plaza, and there are a ton of construction workers working on it. It seems less finished now than it did a few days ago. Perhaps I've been mistaken about the plaza being close to done.

[Dylan]

Update on Grapevine Main Plaza: They poured concrete over most of it a couple of days ago.

 

Until then, I thought the plaza was supposed to be mostly brick. But, I went back to the 3D renderings, and it's supposed to be mostly concrete.

 

It appears everything that's supposed to be paved is now paved.

[Dylan]

Another update: From my vantage point, Grapevine Main Plaza looks fully complete! Trees and plants are in place, paved areas are fully paved, and construction equipment is gone.

 

It appears the only thing that needs to be done for the plaza to open is for someone to remove the chain link fence.

 

Also, Harvest Hall is now open. Jeriat posted this on Twitter a couple of weeks ago, and there's a sign on the fence saying it's open.

[tamtagon]

This should be a great addition to a town that's becoming a secondary regional entertainment destination. The potential tourism trajectory of Downtown Fort Worth has been discussed many times, but Grapevine is putting together an impressive collection. I will be surprised if downtown Grapevine does not become a much much more popular destination.

[Dylan]

Before the pandemic, Grapevine was the most popular destination for leisure travelers, and was the most popular station on Saturdays (TEXRail's busiest day of the week).

[Dylan]

Crews were testing the newly installed fountains at Grapevine Main Plaza earlier today. They appear to be very similar to the fountains at Sundance Square Plaza.

[Dylan]

Grapevine Main Plaza is now open!

The fence is gone, and the public can walk across it.

The fountain isn't on, and there doesn't appear to be any tables or chairs yet. But, it's open.

[rriojas71]

Just a side note.  I picked up my partner from the Mercantile Station as he rode Dart to DFW and switched to Tex Rail.  I met him there because we wanted some awesome Thai food from Sikhay on 28th St.

 

Think about the most useless location they could imagine and then top that off with the most dysfunctional parking and nonsensical station and you have Mercantile Station.  He was the only one on the train and the operator told him that he was his only passenger in the last 3 hours.

 

I don't see this getting any better in the near future. So if you combine the spending on this line and add in the Dash and we have 2 of the most wasteful uses of our tax dollars.  I think the idea of a line to DFW is needed however I wish it was just a direct connection to to DFW and maybe Grapevine.  The other stations are completely worthless.

[Stadtplan]

Just a side note.  I picked up my partner from the Mercantile Station as he rode Dart to DFW and switched to Tex Rail.  I met him there because we wanted some awesome Thai food from Sikhay on 28th St.

 

Think about the most useless location they could imagine and then top that off with the most dysfunctional parking and nonsensical station and you have Mercantile Station.  He was the only one on the train and the operator told him that he was his only passenger in the last 3 hours.

 

I don't see this getting any better in the near future. So if you combine the spending on this line and add in the Dash and we have 2 of the most wasteful uses of our tax dollars.  I think the idea of a line to DFW is needed however I wish it was just a direct connection to to DFW and maybe Grapevine.  The other stations are completely worthless.

 

Wow, in 3-hours! I wonder what the record is for longest stretch without a paying customer?  My dental hygienist told me this morning that she tried to buy tickets for the Tarantula this weekend and they are completely sold out! 

[JBB]

The timing of the Tex Rail line opening was terrible: insanely low gas prices followed by the pandemic followed by even lower gas prices.  Even with the increases of the last few months, gas prices are still low relative to a few years ago and vehicle traffic still hasn't returned to what it was pre-pandemic.  I'm betting DART and the TRE have seen decreases in ridership.  It might be years before we can fairly judge the success or failure of Tex Rail.

[Dylan]

Just a side note.  I picked up my partner from the Mercantile Station as he rode Dart to DFW and switched to Tex Rail.  I met him there because we wanted some awesome Thai food from Sikhay on 28th St.

 

Think about the most useless location they could imagine and then top that off with the most dysfunctional parking and nonsensical station and you have Mercantile Station.  He was the only one on the train and the operator told him that he was his only passenger in the last 3 hours.

 

I don't see this getting any better in the near future. So if you combine the spending on this line and add in the Dash and we have 2 of the most wasteful uses of our tax dollars.  I think the idea of a line to DFW is needed however I wish it was just a direct connection to to DFW and maybe Grapevine.  The other stations are completely worthless.

 

I'm a daily commuter on TEXRail during midday and nighttime hours. The only time I've been the only passenger on my train is the day TEXRail re-opened after the massive snowstorm.

 

Granted, TEXRail ridership was poor even before the pandemic, and there are occasions where there may only be 3 or 4 other passengers on my train. But, I've only been on an empty train once.

 

------------

 

In regards to Mercantile Center Station, it isn't useless for TEXRail passengers who live along Beach Street.

 

How would TEXRail be more useful if it had fewer intermediate stations? It would serve fewer people if it had fewer intermediate stations.

[Jeriat]

I really, truly feel like the biggest screw up with this line is not having a station directly AT the Stockyards instead of (seemingly) randomly at 28 & Decatur. I'd say give it about 5-10 years to truly judge this as a "waste", because many people still would rather have a direct line to the airport and Grapevine instead of having to drive. Taking that option away is counter productive. 

[elpingüino]

Grapevine Main Station (the development around the Texrail station) is having a grand opening Saturday. The observation tower will be open to the public for the first time.

https://fwtx.com/new...d-opening-date/

[Austin55]

Can't wait to get out there. This has to be one of the coolest destination train station anywhere in the states. Grapevine has done a fabulous job embracing TEXRail. Almost makes me wish we could start over on Central Station! T&P has a lot of potential for activation like this too. 

I hope the developers of Trinity Lakes are paying attention. They have the opportunity to do something special on the TRE line.

[Stadtplan]

Can't wait to get out there. This has to be one of the coolest destination train station anywhere in the states. Grapevine has done a fabulous job embracing TEXRail. Almost makes me wish we could start over on Central Station! T&P has a lot of potential for activation like this too. 

I hope the developers of Trinity Lakes are paying attention. They have the opportunity to do something special on the TRE line.

 

This project sets the bar really high.

 

[JBB]

We're planning on having dinner at Harvest Hall on Thursday or Friday.

 

Just from what I've seen from afar, this looks like a great addition.  As it was, downtown Grapevine was already a really nice walkable space.  My only concern has been that some of the retail tends to shut down early and give the area a bit of a "rolled up sidewalks" look.  It's not terrible since there's still a good deal of restaurants and nightlife.  There are also a few surface lots fronting Main Street (one is pretty large) that I would love to see redeveloped.

[youngalum]

We're planning on having dinner at Harvest Hall on Thursday or Friday.

 

Just from what I've seen from afar, this looks like a great addition.  As it was, downtown Grapevine was already a really nice walkable space.  My only concern has been that some of the retail tends to shut down early and give the area a bit of a "rolled up sidewalks" look.  It's not terrible since there's still a good deal of restaurants and nightlife.  There are also a few surface lots fronting Main Street (one is pretty large) that I would love to see redeveloped.

Really!!!!

 

"Third Rail is the premiere spot in North Dallas for drinks with friends and hearing local and regional bands as well as comedy shows, theater, and more. An intimate yet lively atmosphere, Third Rail is set up as a listening room so that guests can truly enjoy some of the top acts in the entire region. In addition, the large, horseshoe-shape bar in the Third Rail, with its industrial design, railroad theme and artful lighting, offers a curated menu of craft beer, wines, and cocktails. Sip a martini or a local micro-brew while you enjoy live entertainment, music, comedy shows, and food and drink pairings, or sit on the outdoor patio on a summer's night."

https://www.harvesth...m/drink#MainBar