159 replies to this topic

[Stadtplan]

 

 

I'm starting to lose interest in HEB if they keep teasing us with new stores and not breaking ground.  I'd just assume shop somewhere close to home.  I like the fact that their store in Burleson has 6 types of everything you can think of but it's just too big and too far to go for anything other than specialty items I can't find at other stores. 

 

I tried shopping at Winco a couple times and by the time you make it through that giant warehouse of a store, pack up and drive home everything is pretty much melted or on its way and I feel the same way about HEB.  

 

I knew they were teasing us....

 

https://www.star-tel...IObpYpst5xQMDsR

 

The two stores in Frisco?

I thought this was already known?

 

I was thinking about the one in Mansfield....not sure why they don't greenlight that one too?

[Jeriat]

I'm only posting this here because I couldn't think of a specific place to put it, but I'm posting this for multiple reasons. 

This was an H-E-B in downtown Brownsville.

 

 Two things:

- This is just a small version of what I imagine a proper urban grocery store (let alone an H-E-B ) would look like on our city blocks. 

- This is also a prime example of why I'm disappointed in the "urban" Tom Thumb on West 7th... I mean, it's not the worst thing in the world, but it could have at least had the main entrance facing east, but what's done is done. 

Apparently, it's not there anymore, though, (not sure if it's COVID or just being replaced as these images came around 2017) but I just found it interesting. 

[John T Roberts]

Jeriat, in my opinion, everything is wrong about the design of the "urban" Tom Thumb in Left Bank.  Don't get me wrong, it is a nice store, but it could have been so much better, from an urban design standpoint.

[Jeriat]

Jeriat, in my opinion, everything is wrong about the design of the "urban" Tom Thumb in Left Bank.  Don't get me wrong, it is a nice store, but it could have been so much better, from an urban design standpoint.

I would have even accepted the front facing the east on Stayton, but keep the parking and everything else where it is. 

That and the entire Montgomery Ward development are massive missed opportunities, but especially MP. Take away the old warehouse and there's nothing special about it. You can something like this in Keller or off I-35 in Burleson.

 

[JBB]

Imagine how much better that development could have been if they had positioned the retail strips and Target along that center drive running through the middle of the warehouse.  I never understood the point of mutilating the warehouse mostly just open it up to a sea of parking and the same old big box retail.  Wouldn't not altering the building facade have kept all kinds of funding avenues open?

[rriojas71]

 

Jeriat, in my opinion, everything is wrong about the design of the "urban" Tom Thumb in Left Bank.  Don't get me wrong, it is a nice store, but it could have been so much better, from an urban design standpoint.

I would have even accepted the front facing the east on Stayton, but keep the parking and everything else where it is. 

That and the entire Montgomery Ward development are massive missed opportunities, but especially MP. Take away the old warehouse and there's nothing special about it. You can something like this in Keller or off I-35 in Burleson.

 

 

Yes I think we all think it could have been better with much less surface parking.  the entire middle section to the north of Chick-Fil-A is never used.  However, I think at the time it was constructed they needed to put something in that area which had absolutely nothing at that point.  They most likely just used the most inexpensive layout and one that they have used several times to keep the construction costs down.  Missed opportunity now that we have some hindsight.

 

I wish they would fill in the middle parking area with a mixed used building that mirrors Montgomery plaza with retail below and loft apartments above. 

[Jeriat]

Imagine how much better that development could have been if they had positioned the retail strips and Target along that center drive running through the middle of the warehouse.  I never understood the point of mutilating the warehouse mostly just open it up to a sea of parking and the same old big box retail.  Wouldn't not altering the building facade have kept all kinds of funding avenues open?

 

You know, now that you mention that, maybe this is still "fixable" in its current state with less to demolish or move around... 

 

 

 

 

Jeriat, in my opinion, everything is wrong about the design of the "urban" Tom Thumb in Left Bank.  Don't get me wrong, it is a nice store, but it could have been so much better, from an urban design standpoint.

I would have even accepted the front facing the east on Stayton, but keep the parking and everything else where it is. 

That and the entire Montgomery Ward development are massive missed opportunities, but especially MP. Take away the old warehouse and there's nothing special about it. You can something like this in Keller or off I-35 in Burleson.

 

 

Yes I think we all think it could have been better with much less surface parking.  the entire middle section to the north of Chick-Fil-A is never used.  However, I think at the time it was constructed they needed to put something in that area which had absolutely nothing at that point.  They most likely just used the most inexpensive layout and one that they have used several times to keep the construction costs down.   

 

I made a couple revised MP threads here and I guess I'll do another. 

I know this is about H-E-B and my last post had nothing to do with this, but all this really did was piss me off all over again with that development, as well as others. That quote in red feels like the town motto sometimes, and oh by the way, it's the 11th anniversary of the Fort Worth Streetcar being aborted... 

[rriojas71]

 

Yes I think we all think it could have been better with much less surface parking.  the entire middle section to the north of Chick-Fil-A is never used.  However, I think at the time it was constructed they needed to put something in that area which had absolutely nothing at that point.  They most likely just used the most inexpensive layout and one that they have used several times to keep the construction costs down.   

 

I made a couple revised MP threads here and I guess I'll do another. 

I know this is about H-E-B and my last post had nothing to do with this, but all this really did was piss me off all over again with that development, as well as others. That quote in red feels like the town motto sometimes, and oh by the way, it's the 11th anniversary of the Fort Worth Streetcar being aborted... 

 

I think it is a construction motto in most American cities....  we value engineer everything now because it is all about the return on investment.  Look at most of the pancakplexes going up in the US.  Everything is square, very little design and detail, everything looks the same, same color palette and most cities are hard to distinguish from each other.  Even the skyscrapers going up are boring.  It is called value engineering

[Stadtplan]

 

Yes I think we all think it could have been better with much less surface parking.  the entire middle section to the north of Chick-Fil-A is never used.  However, I think at the time it was constructed they needed to put something in that area which had absolutely nothing at that point.  They most likely just used the most inexpensive layout and one that they have used several times to keep the construction costs down.   
 

I made a couple revised MP threads here and I guess I'll do another. 

I know this is about H-E-B and my last post had nothing to do with this, but all this really did was piss me off all over again with that development, as well as others. That quote in red feels like the town motto sometimes, and oh by the way, it's the 11th anniversary of the Fort Worth Streetcar being aborted... 
 

I think it is a construction motto in most American cities....  we value engineer everything now because it is all about the return on investment.  Look at most of the pancakplexes going up in the US.  Everything is square, very little design and detail, everything looks the same, same color palette and most cities are hard to distinguish from each other.  Even the skyscrapers going up are boring.  It is called value engineering

From my experience, theres a difference between value engineering (the noun) and value engineering (the verb). The verb form can simply be cost reduction strategies while in design development, like in the MEP systems or material, hardware or fixture package selection while not necessarily affecting the general design of a building, as far as look and feel or size. At some point the design is finalized before IFC/CD drawings. It sounds like what you are describing is value engineering the noun, in other words, designing on the cheap from the get-go, or thoughtless uninspired concept design. I think we are saying the same thing but I thought I would just point this out. I could be wrong too.

[Jeriat]

 

 

Yes I think we all think it could have been better with much less surface parking.  the entire middle section to the north of Chick-Fil-A is never used.  However, I think at the time it was constructed they needed to put something in that area which had absolutely nothing at that point.  They most likely just used the most inexpensive layout and one that they have used several times to keep the construction costs down.   

 

I made a couple revised MP threads here and I guess I'll do another. 

I know this is about H-E-B and my last post had nothing to do with this, but all this really did was piss me off all over again with that development, as well as others. That quote in red feels like the town motto sometimes, and oh by the way, it's the 11th anniversary of the Fort Worth Streetcar being aborted... 

 

I think it is a construction motto in most American cities....  we value engineer everything now because it is all about the return on investment.  Look at most of the pancakplexes going up in the US.  Everything is square, very little design and detail, everything looks the same, same color palette and most cities are hard to distinguish from each other.  Even the skyscrapers going up are boring.  It is called value engineering

 

I know what Value Engineering is.

What I'm pointing out for developments like MP goes beyond that... I don't think they even had any real "urban" planning for Montgomery Plaza in the first place, outside of the old warehouse turned luxury apts. 

[Stadtplan]

Too bad Target or Tom Thumb didn't consider a more "Urban-friendly" format for these stores.  This is an example of a their small format Target Grocery that opened in Uptown Minneapolis.  Target also has a large format store downtown on the Nicollet Mall which is multi-level, including a cart escalator and there's another multi-level CityTarget version of that in Seattle Downtown and Northgate multi-level urban Target and shopping area (by the former Northgate Mall which is now the Kraken Community Iceplex.) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Large Format Store Downtown:

 

 

Seattle: https://goo.gl/maps/ewyyQHc12H3RiHwV9

 

Northgate Target:

[Dylan]

The Montgomery Plaza development was designed for automobiles, not pedestrians.

 

I have to assume developers saw this area as a typical suburban neighborhood, and built condos inside Montgomery Ward because they didn't know what else to do with it.

[youngalum]

The Montgomery Plaza development was designed for automobiles, not pedestrians.

 

I have to assume developers saw this area as a typical suburban neighborhood, and built condos inside Montgomery Ward because they didn't know what else to do with it.

The group that developed the site had never done any type of project like MP before. All they ever did was suburban strip mall anchored by Targets. It shows 

[steave]

A decade ago when I was in college I worked at a Target. I remember back then the rumors were that Super Targets were less profitable and going the way of the dodo. They indeed discontinued that format of store and about 5-6 years ago they remodeled a lot of their bigger stores in other cities into "P Fresh" locations meaning they have that limited fresh foods area which makes the original "Super" format irrelevant. Also they got rid of the Archer Farms branding for their store brand stuff. However I've noticed since moving here that FW still has a lot of unremodeled Super Targets left. Who knows.

 

I feel like with the way Target and retail is going, they could close that Super Target and build an urban format store in it's place. Or somewhere closer to I-30. The rest of that shopping center seems so mediocre too - Dollar Tree, Ross, etc. Just redevelop it. Then again this might be crazy talk if that's a very busy/profitable store.

[John T Roberts]

Welcome to the forum, steave!  I have always thought that the developer of Montgomery Plaza missed the boat.  Back when the project was first announced, I said at some of the public meetings that the City was allowing the wrong group to develop the site for the very same reason that you pointed out, Youngalum. 

[Stadtplan]

A decade ago when I was in college I worked at a Target. I remember back then the rumors were that Super Targets were less profitable and going the way of the dodo. They indeed discontinued that format of store and about 5-6 years ago they remodeled a lot of their bigger stores in other cities into "P Fresh" locations meaning they have that limited fresh foods area which makes the original "Super" format irrelevant. Also they got rid of the Archer Farms branding for their store brand stuff. However I've noticed since moving here that FW still has a lot of unremodeled Super Targets left. Who knows.

 

I feel like with the way Target and retail is going, they could close that Super Target and build an urban format store in it's place. Or somewhere closer to I-30. The rest of that shopping center seems so mediocre too - Dollar Tree, Ross, etc. Just redevelop it. Then again this might be crazy talk if that's a very busy/profitable store.

 

I was in Mansfield this afternoon and noticed the sign on that Target still had the Super Target branding.  Many years ago, they rolled out something known as "Target Greatland" in the Twin Cities.  For some odd reason, I always correlated the Greatland stores with having an expanded selection of outdoor equipment, but perhaps it was just timing for camping season considering the store in mind was sort of on the way up I-494 / I-94 heading out of town towards the route to Northern Minnesota. 

 

https://bizfluent.co...and-target.html

 

The first Target opened in Roseville, Minn. in 1962. The store primarily offered household basics and some limited food items.  As the chain grew, customer demand led to the development of Target Greatland stores; the first Greatland location opened in 1990. Identifiable by the word “Greatland” in green script next to the red Target sign, the Greatland stores were 50 percent larger than a regular Target store. Target Greatland locations offered wider aisles, more and faster check out lanes, a wider selection of merchandise and a more services. The Greatland stores added an expanded prepared-food section and introduced pharmacy and photo services.

 

The first Super Target store opened in Omaha, Nebraska in 1995. Approximately the same size as the Greatland stores, Super Target marked the first time that Target offered fresh food, including produce, deli items and meat. At the same time, the Super Target stores offered the items and one-stop shopping experience that the Greatland stores introduced. In addition, Super Target stores added banks, expanded restaurant options, photo studios and in some stores, health clinics. At a Super Target store, customers can do their weekly grocery shopping, buy new curtains for the bedroom, pick up their prescriptions and develop their photos in one stop.

 

[gdvanc]

I was in Mansfield this afternoon and noticed the sign on that Target still had the Super Target branding.

There's also a Super Target in south Arlington at Cooper and Arbrook, near the Parks Mall.  At least I'm pretty sure it still has that branding on the outside. It has the usual Target stuff, groceries, a CVS pharmacy and I think an eyeglasses place. Maybe different regions have had different success with the concept.

 

Kroger has one of their "Marketplace" stores in Arlington (very close to Mansfield) on US-287 and Sublett. It has a bit of a larger supply and selection of groceries including more prepared foods (such as a decent pizza), as well as some clothing, housewares, toys, etc.

 

The broad one-stop model hasn't died here yet.

[Stadtplan]

 

I was in Mansfield this afternoon and noticed the sign on that Target still had the Super Target branding.

There's also a Super Target in south Arlington at Cooper and Arbrook, near the Parks Mall.  At least I'm pretty sure it still has that branding on the outside. It has the usual Target stuff, groceries, a CVS pharmacy and I think an eyeglasses place. Maybe different regions have had different success with the concept.

 

Kroger has one of their "Marketplace" stores in Arlington (very close to Mansfield) on US-287 and Sublett. It has a bit of a larger supply and selection of groceries including more prepared foods (such as a decent pizza), as well as some clothing, housewares, toys, etc.

 

The broad one-stop model hasn't died here yet.

 

 

That Kroger Marketplace on 287 became my go-to during the pandemic when a lot of other stores in town had long lines outside the store and were just too crowded for my comfort level.  This particular location is very large and had self-checkout open very late at one point, I want to say perhaps as late as 1am.  There was one time I was in there and all the lights went to 50% I thought perhaps they had closed with me still inside.  They also seemed to have enough supplies when a lot of other stores still had bare shelves, I'm guessing because of their capacity to take larger deliveries in back-stock as well as stock on the sales floor too.  They actually have a pretty good selection of toys for kids and other household items too, including some better quality kitchen gadgets and things that would made for nicer gifts.  I even bought a flat screen TV there, I had my eye on a specific brand and one day I walked in and there were 6 or 7 of them on sale about $75 cheaper than Sam's so I put one in the back of the SUV and went back in and did my grocery shopping.

[Urbndwlr]

It was mid-2000s (circa 2004 I think) and the multi story historic building redeveloped sat mothballed.  It had a massive warehouse on lots of land sitting behind it.  The warehouse had been hit by the tornado and damaged.  The City wanted the historic building saved and redeveloped.

 

The lead developer who had either bought it or had it under contract (i.e. the then-owners wanted to sell to them) had a specialty in developing Target (or similar) anchored shopping centers in suburban locations and were interested in the site as a retail "power center" site.   They were only interested in the rear portion since 1) historic redevelopment was way outside their expertise range and 2) the historic building was blocking the view of the planned anchor tenant (Target) from 7th Street.  

 

So as I understand it, the City insisted they not demo the historic building, and that they find a way to redevelop it, and they otherwise would enable the remainder of the retail project to move foward. I think there was some disruptive sewer line or something involved too that made the developer more apt to seek the CIty's help beyond just allowing industrial to retail rezoning (might have been possible by-right to develop "higher" retail in "lower" industrial zone, actually). 

 

The City also knew a grocery was going to be needed so either asked or required (not sure) that Target include its grocery version (Super Target) in the building rather than its ordinary store.   So what was on the table from the developer originally was so far away from a City Target/ urban format Target that prob wasn't within the realm of reality for the City to push for that.   Because there was so much land and the surrounding neighborhood at the time was pretty low density and not redeveloping, I'm sure the thought of an urban format, more expensive  store (if Target even had them rolled out at that point) would have seemed insanely optimistic from the developer's perspective at that time. 

 

Someone mentioned Tom Thumb.  Yes, that was a miss.  Should have found way to rotate front or side more toward 7th so addresses the street better. 

[Urbndwlr]

A decade ago when I was in college I worked at a Target. I remember back then the rumors were that Super Targets were less profitable and going the way of the dodo. They indeed discontinued that format of store and about 5-6 years ago they remodeled a lot of their bigger stores in other cities into "P Fresh" locations meaning they have that limited fresh foods area which makes the original "Super" format irrelevant. Also they got rid of the Archer Farms branding for their store brand stuff. However I've noticed since moving here that FW still has a lot of unremodeled Super Targets left. Who knows.

 

I feel like with the way Target and retail is going, they could close that Super Target and build an urban format store in it's place. Or somewhere closer to I-30. The rest of that shopping center seems so mediocre too - Dollar Tree, Ross, etc. Just redevelop it. Then again this might be crazy talk if that's a very busy/profitable store.

I'd love to see the sales numbers for the West 7th Super Target vs other Targets.  It seems like it is packed with pretty good consistency and has good traffic in the grocery section.  Hope they never ditch the grocery part, because is good for the neighborhood, even with Tom Thumb and Natural Grocers.

[Urbndwlr]

Welcome to the forum, steave!  I have always thought that the developer of Montgomery Plaza missed the boat.  Back when the project was first announced, I said at some of the public meetings that the City was allowing the wrong group to develop the site for the very same reason that you pointed out, Youngalum. 

John, as you know, the City doesnt select the developers.  They have to work with whoever buys it.

[John T Roberts]

I am aware that the city doesn't select the developers, but thy might have been able do some things to convince the ones interested that there were better properties elsewhere in the city.  Another possibility would have been to take away some of the tax incentives that were given to this developer unless he came up with a more "urban" master plan for the site.  Unfortunately, it has been so long since these talks were held that I can't remember the details. 

[Urbndwlr]

Returning to original topic, does it look promising that the Hoque project at Evans & Rosedale will succeed in attracting a grocery? 

I thought that sounded kind of reckless/risky for Councilmember Nettles to basically promise he'd recruit one during his campaigns. 

[steave]

HEB has several urban format stores in Houston, some of which have structured parking. They also took a risk and built a new store in the third ward which had been neglected by mainstream chain grocers. Who knows.

[Jeriat]

HEB has several urban format stores in Houston, some of which have structured parking. They also took a risk and built a new store in the third ward which had been neglected by mainstream chain grocers. Who knows.

Oh I know. Houston is basically my 2nd home and I've seen several of them... it is the 4th largest city in America, after all, so I'd think those would be more common builds. 

 

[txbornviking]

 

HEB has several urban format stores in Houston, some of which have structured parking. They also took a risk and built a new store in the third ward which had been neglected by mainstream chain grocers. Who knows.

Oh I know. Houston is basically my 2nd home and I've seen several of them... it is the 4th largest city in America, after all, so I'd think those would be more common builds. 

 

 

 

y'all remember when there was a proposal to replace the Kroger at University & Berry with something like this?

 

what a missed opportunity...

 

with a few tweek/improvements, this is certainly something we should try to encourage more of in our city. We could make permitting and approvals easier, improve zoning, etc

Let's all make a New Years resolution to more actively email the mayor and our city counselors in 2022 and actively promote the changes we want to see that way!

[John T Roberts]

There was indeed a missed opportunity to replace the Kroger at University & Berry with an urban grocery store.  It is a shame that it wasn't built.

 

I agree that we should all try to make an effort to actively communicate with the Mayor and Council to promote these changes.

[Jeriat]

 

 

HEB has several urban format stores in Houston, some of which have structured parking. They also took a risk and built a new store in the third ward which had been neglected by mainstream chain grocers. Who knows.

Oh I know. Houston is basically my 2nd home and I've seen several of them... it is the 4th largest city in America, after all, so I'd think those would be more common builds. 

 

 

 

y'all remember when there was a proposal to replace the Kroger at University & Berry with something like this?

 

what a missed opportunity...

. . . I thought that idea was still on the board. 

[John T Roberts]

Jeriat, I haven't heard anything lately, so I assumed the project was dead.  Since Austin is in the know, maybe he has an update.

[Stadtplan]

I saw a permit a few months ago in Accela to renovate the front of the Kroger for better curbside pickup sevices but nothing else too exciting. I was in there shopping a few weeks ago and didnt recall seeing any work being done. Next time Im behind a computer Ill look it up.

[Stadtplan]

Not behind a computer but here it is, the remodel permit from 11/8/21:

https://accela.fortw...ShowInspection=

Project Description:
Kroger #520
MINOR INTERIOR REMODEL OF AN EXISTING GROCERY STORE. INTERIOR SCOPE OF WORK PRIMARILY CONSISTS CREATING A NEW PICK-UP AREA WITHIN THE EXISTING FOOTPRINT.

[JBB]

I thought it died when the store was converted from Albertsons to Kroger.

[John T Roberts]

JBB, I believe that's when the project died.  A developer owned the property when Alberston's occupied the building.  Now Kroger owns that piece of property.  That also explains the reason why Albertson's relocated.  Kroger bought the land and building and when Albertson's lease was up, they evicted them to convert the building to their store.

 

As for the recent renovations, I was in the store last night, and I think those renovations have been very subtle.  I have hardly noticed the work.  The next time I go in, I will look to see if I can spot any obvious renovations.

[Stadtplan]

Pretty small job, now that I look at the details. Probably why I did not originally post. They do have those cool conveyor belt shelf-checkouts at that store. Wish more stores had those.

Job Value($):
$125,000.00

[Austin55]

I thought it died when the store was converted from Albertsons to Kroger.

What year was that?

[John T Roberts]

It was in late 2009.  Albertson's closed at the first of 2010 and Kroger opened in June of that year.

[Jeriat]

Okay... last thing on Montgomery Plaza and I'll get back on topic for this thread:

[Austin55]

I'm sure there are more places like it but Houston's Rice Village has always been a really interesting concept to me. It's basically just a standard strip mall but the roof is used as parking. I'm sure it's more expensive but I'd also imagine it's cheaper than multi-story structured parking. And and a landowner would  be able to utilize more of the land for lease space. Especially for big box stores it seems like a handy way to build. 

 

 

[Stadtplan]

I like the concept but I bet the cost per SQFT is going to be a lot higher plus I believe ADA would require an elevator, which at minimum that's probably a couple hundred thousand added.

 

I seem to recall Uptown Plaza Dallas which is a relatively modest-sized strip mall, having its own underground parking.  It's been 10-years since I grabbed lunch over, there but underground parking seems less intrusive structurally and acoustically (if you've ever spent time in a parking garage listening to the sound of cars going over the expansion joints.)

 

[roverone]

The entrance to that parking:

 

https://www.google.c...!7i16384!8i8192

[george84]

That picture of rice village is very nostalgic for me. I worked in that building, on the other side at Jamba Juice when I was in high school, from 2001 to 2003. Its long gone now. I used to park on the roof and walk down the stairs to the store. The village is very cool, its an old, old shopping area and working there was fun. We used to trade smoothies for food with Mr. Gattis, Texadelphia and Jasons Deli all the time.

[txbornviking]

Okay... last thing on Montgomery Plaza and I'll get back on topic for this thread:

 

 

Jeriat, Is this one of your idea proposals, or was this something once proposed that lost out to what was actually built?

[Jeriat]

 

Okay... last thing on Montgomery Plaza and I'll get back on topic for this thread:

 

 

Jeriat, Is this one of your idea proposals, or was this something once proposed that lost out to what was actually built?

 

This is all me.

[elpingüino]

H-E-B just bought a site in south Dallas, near I-20 and 67. Given that their previous North Texas purchases/openings have been in suburban areas - Hudson Oaks, Mansfield, McKinney, Eagle Mountain area - maybe this Dallas purchase means they'll move toward the urban core on the Fort Worth side, too.

https://www.dallasne...outhern-dallas/

[Doohickie]

That's not really urban core.

[John T Roberts]

I agree with Doohickie, this site in Dallas is on the south side of I-20 and the west side of US 67.  Across the street, it's Duncanville.  For the record, this is an old Albertson's store.  I believe it is about 58,000 s.f.

[Jeriat]

It's not in the urban core, but it is within the city limits of Dallas, and that's further than what has been with (regular) H-E-B's there or here in Ft. Worth.

[elpingüino]

Mansfield council courts H-E-B, promises support and asks for a super store

[elpingüino]

Fort Worth Report,
H-E-B leader shares secrets of grocer's success and says Fort Worth location is coming

[txbornviking]

First H-E-B grocery store is coming to Fort Worth. Here’s where and when

 

https://www.star-tel...e262292327.html

but don't hold your breath as it may not be until 2026?