128 replies to this topic

[Doohickie]

Also considering payroll costs, churches typically have staff that are 20 or 30 people deep on the small side

The majority of churches in the U.S. have fewer than a hundred members. So maybe a pastor, music director and youth director, the second two are probably part time.  That would be typical for a church.  On the small side.

[Stadtplan]

Also considering payroll costs, churches typically have staff that are 20 or 30 people deep on the small side

The majority of churches in the U.S. have fewer than a hundred members. So maybe a pastor, music director and youth director, the second two are probably part time.  That would be typical for a church.  On the small side.

I was more referring to larger churches like Paradox with over 500 members. According to their $159,500 PPP loan, they claimed a staff headcount of 19.

https://projects.pro...-inc-8092337002

It would be nice for churches to be able to rely more on volunteerism but I am not seeing it trend that direction. There are pastoral, logistics and production duties requiring full time employees.

Gateway Church has a staff headcount in the range of 600-800. A friend of mine is head of security at another large multi-location church and I would not be surprised if he did not have 10 direct reports as well as member volunteers and hired armed uniformed officers under his purview. It is crazy to think these days but when I have run into him at various events or occasions he always carries a small backpack slung over his shoulder....I did not need to ask why but likely containing reinforcement supplies in the event of a mass shooting scenario.

[renamerusk]

Not saying that Paradox is a bad church; don't know squat about it. Nonetheless, I'm so through with these heretics preaching hate while taking money from taxpayers!

 

https://www.youtube....=Rrvs6BYFTCcers.

[Doohickie]

I was more referring to larger churches like Paradox

I know, but that's not what you said. You said typical. Typical is a church with fewer than 100 members. Even if you want to adjust for number of people instead of number of churches, typical is still less than 500 people per church (i.e., MOST people, about 60%, worship in churches with fewer than 500 members).

[JBB]

I would be shocked if Gateway Church still had 600-800 people on staff. They let something in the neighborhood of 50% of their staff go when they ran into financial problems awhile back.

[Jeriat]

So... (delete if deemed necessary) is this Steve Penate's church...? 

[Doohickie]

So... (delete if deemed necessary) is this Steve Penate's church...? 

No, that's Mercy Church, the one on Oakhurst Scenic.

[Jeriat]

Alright, then. 

[renamerusk]

What's most disappointing is not that it will be a church but the fact that they are building a parking lot right on Henderson.  I'm sure there are many better places in the UWS for this.  Not trying to knock the Church or any House of Worship but the parking could have gone behind it and not plopped right onto a major thoroughfare coming into Downtown.  Not that we lack any of those in the area of town.

 

Of any location in "DTFW' this is the least of all "evil".  At this location, I think it will have less of an impact on DTFW developing than it would have in a more central sector of DTFW. 

 

Churches are hogs when it comes to parking and their scant use of them two days per week.

[Doohickie]

Alright, then. 

Grateful to have your approval 

[Stadtplan]

 

I was more referring to larger churches like Paradox

I know, but that's not what you said. You said typical. Typical is a church with fewer than 100 members. Even if you want to adjust for number of people instead of number of churches, typical is still less than 500 people per church (i.e., MOST people, about 60%, worship in churches with fewer than 500 members).

 

Doohickie, I actually agree with you.  I was simply trying to make the point from my own experiences, that many of those types of jobs / paid positions traditionally either did not exist or were volunteer-based.  I can see where that was confusing.  The vast majority of organizations don't have a huge budget or the luxury of hiring out armed guards, social media teams, camera operators, musicians, childcare workers etc.  You work with what you have (or you twist people's arm to cough up some more money....just kidding).  

[Doohickie]

I belong to a Presbyterian congregation.... for the fun (?) of it I looked up several local congregations on the PCUSA website.  It was interesting to see the number of attendees versus members versus budgets and expenses (all are available on the website).

[Jeriat]

 

Alright, then. 

Grateful to have your approval 

 

 

Not to say what I really want to say...:

I still hate no highrise on this land, but I can at least stomach having the church there.

[Stadtplan]

I belong to a Presbyterian congregation.... for the fun (?) of it I looked up several local congregations on the PCUSA website.  It was interesting to see the number of attendees versus members versus budgets and expenses (all are available on the website).

 

Transparency is a good thing, especially when other people's money is involved.  

 

A close relative was a church treasurer for many years (volunteer of course) and he told me that when creating a budget for a church, don’t pay attention to the total or average number of attendees but more so how many “giving units” exist within a congregation.  Out of 400 average attendees per week, he said there was around 75 - 100 giving units (the 80/20 rule) but I imagine some of that factored in combined family giving and those on fixed incomes.  They had a modest staff of around 4.5

[Stadtplan]

The general contractor for the Paradox Church project is Fort Worth-based FPI Builders, LLC.

 

https://fpibuilders.com/

[John T Roberts]

A creative signage package for the new church building is the only case on this month's DDRB Agenda.  Below is the link to the agenda:

 

https://www.fortwort...-and-packet.pdf

[Stadtplan]

A creative signage package for the new church building is the only case on this month's DDRB Agenda.  Below is the link to the agenda:

 

https://www.fortwort...-and-packet.pdf

 

Several weeks ago they also submitted this permit application for "Install New Channel Letters on Existing Pole Sign"

 

I was trying to figure out if that was the old Premier Gardens sign they wanted to revamp?  https://goo.gl/maps/AZ7uZfbxz5Y1wwoG8

 

SIGNS

Use:

New

Specific Use:

Attached - Illuminated Sign

Sign Height:

2

Sign Width:

10.5

Height Above Grade:

20

Total Square Footage:

42

Amps:

2

Name on Sign:

PRDX.CH

Face Type:

Double

 

Comment: Signs, Retaining Walls over 4', Fences, Dumpster Enclosures over 6', and Parkway Approaches and Sidewalks require separate permits and reviews. 

 

Reviewer: Sevanne Steiner Email: Sevanne.Steiner@fortworthtexas.gov

 

1. Pole signs may not be altered and may only be refaced.

[John T Roberts]

It is the old Premier Gardens sign.  However, that was a modification of an older neon sign.  Way back in the 1960s, my mother worked for Bob Reynolds Motor Co. and I'm almost sure that was their location and their address was 303 N. Henderson.  I'm also thinking that was their neon sign.

[Stadtplan]

 

The sign was originally installed circa 1955.  Existing condition:

 

[RD Milhollin]

This is a joke, right?

[Stadtplan]

This is a joke, right?

DDRB unanimously approved it this afternoon, no public objections either.

[GenX]

I wonder ? If the "Worth" had been built, would they have saved and use this sign ? 

[Stadtplan]

I wonder ? If the "Worth" had been built, would they have saved and use this sign ? 

 

Also, during Phase 1 of their project, this site is a surface parking lot but Phase 2, this becomes a parking garage / education facility.  Does this pole sign still fit within their future plans for this site or do they eventually ask to get rid of it?  Can they get rid of it if they wanted to?

[txbornviking]

I'm fairly positive they can just get rid of it if they want.

HOWEVER, it is likely "legal nonconforming sign" which means it's allowed only because it existed before current regulations were in place and if removed it's pretty damn hard to replace.

That's why you'll see a sign repurposed or often kept in place while a building is demolished (ie the JOY FLORAL sign at the site of the Crescent Project near the museums, https://www.google.c...8h,76.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXgLXOIV3KF4bE2z0YM05sA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 )

[Stadtplan]

The Beck Group published their Summer 2021 Cost Report and here's their latest market cost analysis for faith-based new construction.  If the Paradox project is 30,000 SQFT, I would expect their phase 1 budget not including the cost of finishing out the AV, sitework and surface parking lot next door to be in the range of:

$10,500,000 to $12,840,000.  I think you could easily add another $500K - $1M for those items not included especially if there is a nicer site lighting / landscape lighting package or any specialty exterior lighting package needed.  I had originally guessed overall cost to complete at $10-15M here.

 

 

Phase I Surface Parking Cost Analysis.  For Phase II, I don't recall how many proposed parking spaces they need but there would also be a skybridge connecting to the church and an educational / office space so it's too hard to tell scope of work, but here's the cost factors for Summer 2021.  Their drawings presented to DDRB show 114 surface parking lot spaces:

$464,664 - $567,948 if they go with concrete.  Bituminous would probably be the cheaper option if they plan to tear this up in a couple of years to build a garage but check out how expensive parking garage construction is (based on cost per space) assuming they could fit around 400 spaces at $20,000 per space = $8,000,000 on the low end.

[Stadtplan]

Here's a couple additional interior renderings:

 

 

 

 

Fundraising update:

[Stadtplan]

Some activity at Paradox Church site 11/28/21 (Sorry these shots are not the best, I was in a hurry and should have hopped out but was already running late to my next engagement of the evening.  Not much to see yet but good to see some activity is underway.).

 

 

This part of the project (phase A parking lot, phase B future garage / education bldg.) is fenced off but no activity yet:

[Crestline]

Drove by this site too quickly yesterday to take a picture, but saw that construction had started.

[Stadtplan]

Paradox posted a flyover video a few days ago showing their progress:

 

https://fb.watch/a_oSegy0Xw/

[Stadtplan]

Has anyone set eyes on the Paradox Church project?  I drove by last night and it was too dark to see any significant progress.  I was curious if it stalled out or are they making progress?  It appeared they had privacy screening on the construction fence. 

[JBB]

Not in person, but I know I saw a social media post in the last few days showing a large part of the foundation being poured.

[Stadtplan]

The crawler (crane) was assembled today at Paradox Church.  I drove by yesterday afternoon, noticed the Link-Belt there but the boom wasn't up yet until I noticed this evening.

 

Taken today:

 

 

 

Taken Friday afternoon driving past the jobsite:

[Stadtplan]

Lots of progress with the structural steel. I will post my photos this evening.

[Stadtplan]

The sanctuary taking shape.  (Upstage left)

 

 

 

[Stadtplan]

Paradox update 4/30/22.  Looks like a giant Erector Set.  There's a whole pile of structural steel off to the side ready to be installed.  One thing I'm sort of wondering about with some modern churches using large PA systems, I wonder if they'll be dealing with resonance issues from the subwoofers with this being mainly steel construction vs using more of a concrete caste-in-place or precast design?

 

 

 

 

[John T Roberts]

Nitixope, I doubt there will be any acoustics issues.  Most modern churches use steel framing for the buildings and they don't have any resonance issues. 

[Austin55]

From across the street on 5/28/22

 

[Stadtplan]

Paradox Church Construction Update:

 

 

[Stadtplan]

7/4/22 Paradox Church Construction Updates:

 

 

 

 

 

[Stadtplan]

Record PV22-00350: 

Commercial Razing Permit

Record Status: Pending

 

Project Description:

Paradox Church

Demolition of 1 story structure for new parking lot.

 

Permit Address

303 N HENDERSON ST

 

RAZING

Square Footage:1200

 

 

[Crestline]

Ouch, such a big new surface parking lot. Idle thought: I wonder if the church could work out a parking deal a block further away at panther island pavilion while someone with deep pockets builds them multi-level parking garage (topped with residential) in place of this new surface lot.   

[Stadtplan]

Ouch, such a big new surface parking lot. Idle thought: I wonder if the church could work out a parking deal a block further away at panther island pavilion while someone with deep pockets builds them multi-level parking garage (topped with residential) in place of this new surface lot.   

 

That's not a bad idea but they likely would need a ton of parking reserved for the church and for the residential units which could equate to a tall structure.  I'm not certain but can a 501©3 organization building a parking garage and residential tower or office structure then collect lease revenue tax free?  I'm thinking about First Baptist Dallas where they own considerable downtown parking and real estate and during the work week use the parking garage as a source of income.  I've heard of other area churches that own sports fields and rent out those facilities as a source of income.  Don't quote me, but I don't think they pay property tax or business income tax on those ventures....would be curious if anyone else has experience with that?  

 

As you recall from above, phase II of the project is supposed to replace the surface lot with parking structure / education space.  The lot they are razing should accommodate around 114 spaces according to the drawings and the sanctuary seats 750 so parking could be tight if they're running back-to-back services.  I recall there being mention of "access" to 350 parking spots so not sure about the other 236 spots but I recall them announcing some sort of temporary lease of the TCCD parking structure across the street.  Like you noted, there's also the Panther Island parking lots they might be able to use or lease if necessary and street parking could be factored into the equation. 

 

They are at the 2-year mark with their giving campaign, and are running two services at The Ridglea.  According to their giving campaign packet, it states they have 497 partners (which I'm assuming is a regularly-giving members or giving unit families) and peak attendance for Easter that year was stated as 1,118 (assuming 2 services total).  Needless to say, once this project is done, they are going to have the potential to greatly exceed the parking capacity of that north lot and should consider shuttling in people from other parking places.

 

The plan presented to accommodate growth is to expand north where the parking lot is currently and to build a parking structure combined education facility connected via skybridge to Phase I.

 

 

[Crestline]

Ah-hah, I did not recall that they're planning to build a parking garage plus educational facilities there. Great, can't come soon enough!

[Stadtplan]

Surprising how expensive garages are.  I posted some data above a while back from The Beck Group discussing average parking garage costs vs paved lots.  Gets expensive very quickly depending on how many parking spots are needed.  Lots of concrete involved.

[JBB]

Two of the garages mentioned in this post are $43,000 and $47,000 per space.  I remember when the good rule of thumb on parking garage costs was $10-15k per space.

 

Even a modest garage of 300 spaces at a $15k per space price would be $4.5 million or more than half of the cost of the entire facility they're building now.  I'll believe it when I see it.

[Stadtplan]

According to Becks construction pricing guide, they are saying for cast-in-place garage in Dallas/Fort Worth avg cost ranges from $26,410- 33,746. Precast concrete is about half that cost range at $14,850- 18,975.

Off the top of my head, theres some factors that might affect cost driving it higher such as:

expensive lighting package, lighting control system, number of elevators and number of levels for elevator lobbies, lightning protection, connections to surrounding buildings / pedestrian walkways / tunnels, parking guidance system, car inventory systems (ie Terminal E), PTZ video surveillance systems, access control systems, the need to run structured cabling or even fiber optic cable from the campus MDF over to garage for low voltage systems, ticketing and automated payment systems, underground parking ventilation HVAC, possibly smoke and fire alarm systems, possibly fire suppression sprinklers, cellular distributed antennae system to keep cell signal intact, code blue emergency call boxes. Some organizations may choose to house emergency diesel generator in a parking garage (life safety amd continuity of operations are certainly factors), fancy signage amd way finding systems. Im sure Ill think of some more later.

https://www.beckgrou...rt_Fall2021.pdf
(Page 11)

https://www.hubparki...rking-guidance/

[Stadtplan]

According to Becks construction pricing guide, they are saying for cast-in-place garage in Dallas/Fort Worth avg cost ranges from $26,410- 33,746. Precast concrete is about half that cost range at $14,850- 18,975.

Off the top of my head, theres some factors that might affect cost driving it higher such as:

expensive lighting package, lighting control system, number of elevators and number of levels for elevator lobbies, lightning protection, connections to surrounding buildings / pedestrian walkways / tunnels, parking guidance system, car inventory systems (ie Terminal E), PTZ video surveillance systems, access control systems, the need to run structured cabling or even fiber optic cable from the campus MDF over to garage for low voltage systems, ticketing and automated payment systems, underground parking ventilation HVAC, possibly smoke and fire alarm systems, possibly fire suppression sprinklers, cellular distributed antennae system to keep cell signal intact, code blue emergency call boxes. Some organizations may choose to house emergency diesel generator in a parking garage (life safety amd continuity of operations are certainly factors), fancy signage amd way finding systems. Im sure Ill think of some more later.

https://www.beckgrou...rt_Fall2021.pdf
(Page 11)

https://www.hubparki...rking-guidance/

I forgot one of the most significant parking garage cost adders is vehicle charging stations. Theres a new and very cool project unbuilt in Dallas and they are specifying a whopping 1:5 ratio of vehicle chargers to non charging stalls. That is an insane amount of chargers but they are also going for LEED Platinum too. Theres another very cool project being built in Austin they specified 100 charging stations which I thought was a lot at the time.

[Stadtplan]

Paradox Church Updates:

[Stadtplan]

On the DDRB agenda today, Paradox's Requests a Certificate of Appropriateness for a temporary parking lot.  It appears the temporary lot would allow for only (40) parking stalls.  I'm assuming they are planning to use street parking as well as leasing parking space from TCCD or Panther Island parking lots.  What's interesting if you read through the emails that were submitted to the city along with the DDRB application, the Pastor said the building dedication service is Jan 6th....I'm guessing of 2023, in about 5 weeks.  When I drove by on Sunday, it wasn't fully dried in, at least the front entry was still open to the outside.

 

"Dedication Service is Friday Jan 6th. First Sunday is Jan 8th. We will be homeless as of Dec 31."

 

Project Description:

"The Paradox Church proposes to clean up the block in question by removing the existing small structure and retaining wall and other miscellaneous items as noted on the exhibit, repairing and re-surfacing the existing parking lot, and grading the remaining portion of the lot which will then be covered with gravel. A sloped portion of the lot between the parking lot and gravel area will be protected with erosion control matting."

 

Staff Report:

https://www.fortwort...taff-report.pdf

 

Drawings:

https://docs.b360.au...ec-eefa69ba8691

 

 

[JBB]

Judging from your pics from last weekend, there's a lot of work that has to happen in a month.