261 replies to this topic

[jefffwd]

The Gap closed earlier this month. That can't be a good sign for a mall.

[JulieM]

Thud!

[Urbndwlr]

I cruised through Ridgmar mall the other day. Malls just offer terrible shopping experiences - period. They are artificial and sterile. John L Ashe and Neimans are definitely worth visiting, however there isn't much else there for a guy.

I suspect that at some point either the mall owner will entirely redevelop the place (not the little lipstick job done by Shopco about 5 years ago) - I mean ripping the roof off and "activating" the outside facade, constructing new buildings on the outside to create new, narrow streets (either ped-only or for vehicular traffic), plus possibly adding office, residential, or hotel uses. Basically, using the site entirely differently. It would require a big infusion of capital, and a developer who wants to do more than simply bleed the property of cash.

Hulen, Ridgmar, the Parks, and North East Malls have been able to hang on becase Fort Worth area shoppers have had no attractive alternatives over the last few decades. With the entrance of the Museum Place project + 7th Street + So7 in the city's center, Southlake Town Square in the Northeastern 'burbs, and the Highland project in Arlington (actually I don't know what it will look like), each of those existing malls should see their comfortable positions threatened.

If Neiman's could find a way to set up on W 7th Street, it would be a huge boon to the boulevard and to Neimans - assuming it is integrated within a new environment of retail, residential, and office buildings. I'm not sure Neiman's is adventurous enough to make such a move - they are probably far too spoiled - leaving their west side store there and not putting any capital improvements into it.

[jefffwd]

The Gap closed earlier this month. That can't be a good sign for a mall.

I think we're still covered though... Plus - they stilll have the largest Old Navy I've ever seen!
1.Gap
GapKids
UNIVERSITY PARK VILL
1616 South University Drive
FORT WORTH, TX 76107
Phone: (817) 877-1360
map | directions
2.Gap
GapBody
UNIVERSITY PARK VILL
1620 South University Drive
FORT WORTH, TX 76107
Phone: (817) 332-9089
map | directions
3.Gap
babyGap
GapBody
GapKids
GapMaternity
HULEN
4800 S HULEN ST
FORT WORTH, TX 76132
Phone: (817) 292-7291
map | directions
4.Gap
babyGap
GapBody
GapKids
NORTHEAST
1101 MELBOURNE RD
HURST, TX 76053
Phone: (817) 595-5882
map | directions
5.Gap
babyGap
GapKids
PARKS AT ARLINGTON
3811 S COOPER ST
ARLINGTON, TX 76015
Phone: (817) 557-0023
map | directions
6.Gap
GapKids
LINCOLN SQUARE - TX
1500 North Collins Street
ARLINGTON, TX 76011
Phone: (817) 275-2988
map | directions
7.Gap
GapBody
GapKids
SOUTHLAKE T/SQ
167 Grand Avenue
SOUTHLAKE, TX 76092
Phone: (817) 416-5539
map | directions
8.Gap
GapOutlet
GRAPEVINE MILLS
3000 Grapevine Mills Place
GRAPEVINE, TX 76051
Phone: (972) 874-1820
map | directions
9.Gap
GapKids
MACARTHUR PARK
7601 North MacArthur Blvd.
IRVING, TX 75063-7510
Phone: (972) 373-0614
map | directions

[Now in Denton]

[quote name='jefffwd' date='Mar 22 2006, 07:40 PM' post='23528']
[quote post='23502' date='Mar 22 2006, 05:24 PM' name='jefffwd']
The Gap closed earlier this month. That can't be a good sign for a mall.
[/quote]
I think we're still covered though... Plus - they stilll have the largest Old Navy I've ever seen!


The point is well taken with what jeffwd is saying. Gap closed , A music store thats closing . Thats what everyone sees in every mall in America. That can't be a good sign for any mall !

[vjackson]

It's been a while, since I've been to that part of FW. But the last time I was there wasn't there lots of residential construction going on in the area around the mall and Carswell? I would have thought that would have really increased the mall traffic.

[safly]

E-Commerce killed the Ridgmar Star.

And all the like.

[jefffwd]

E-Commerce killed the Ridgmar Star.

And all the like.

Saw an article last Sunday in the DMN about the Shops at Willow Bend (Plano) and how many stores had gone out of business - "one of a kind stores in Texas". It basically said that the developers overestimated the income for that zip code and failed to consider things like the divorce rate, bankruptcies, people living beyond their means etc. They are, however, excited to announce the grand opening of Famous Footwear! - say what?

[Yossarian]

Saw an article last Sunday in the DMN about the Shops at Willow Bend (Plano) and how many stores had gone out of business - "one of a kind stores in Texas". It basically said that the developers overestimated the income for that zip code and failed to consider things like the divorce rate, bankruptcies, people living beyond their means etc. They are, however, excited to announce the grand opening of Famous Footwear! - say what?

Simon Properties is facing the same quandry in NE Mall with Saks and Nordstrom wishing that they had gone further into central/west Tarrant County.

[safly]

Interesting remarks about Simon Properties. The new Nordstrom's in SA at the Shops at La Cantera are experiencing a wonderful season and a favorable outlook. They are situated PERFECTLY in a HOT and ever growing market. NCentral to NWest San Antonio. Do Simon P's deal with them?

Speakin of ECommerce and mall sales number slippage. I was tuning in on a CNBC interview this morning about a GAMING development firm, S2. The 20 something y.o. founder and chairman spoke of how 20% of their entire online video game subscription sales made more money than 80% of their entire brick and mortar sales.

Makes sense with less cost in packaging and display materials, middleman is out of the EQ, and it is always available (stocked). Maybe that's why Blockbusters couldn't hack it at University and 7th location. Video on DEMAND.

Is this the future in retail, or is it the NOW?

[safly]

E-Commerce killed the Ridgmar Star.

And all the like.

Saw an article last Sunday in the DMN about the Shops at Willow Bend (Plano) and how many stores had gone out of business - "one of a kind stores in Texas". It basically said that the developers overestimated the income for that zip code and failed to consider things like the divorce rate, bankruptcies, people living beyond their means etc. They are, however, excited to announce the grand opening of Famous Footwear! - say what?

I really like the S at WB, once you get there. Beautiful layouts, furnishings, very quiet (could be the problem) and they have such nice cars in the middle of the paseos. But I knew once Jose Ybare was leaving the house some 2 years ago, that things were not going well as planned.

[Yossarian]

Interesting remarks about Simon Properties. The new Nordstrom's in SA at the Shops at La Cantera are experiencing a wonderful season and a favorable outlook. They are situated PERFECTLY in a HOT and ever growing market. NCentral to NWest San Antonio. Do Simon P's deal with them?

Saf, Simon doesn't own La Canterra. And you are right, NW San Antonio is hot, combined with the tourist trade at the three Hill Country resorts. Since the mall opened, SA has experienced an abnormally warm winter which has lifted its "off season" resort traffic. That has helped, combined with the new-ness of the mall. We are really going to need to see what happens in the mall's second and especially third year to truly ascertain its success. Remember the lesson from Willow Bend...

[ashivone]

The Shops at La Cantera have alot going for them. The Valero headquarters are right across the street. All the tourists for Fiesta Texas are next door; there are a number of very nice resorts a little north; and there are a number of shops that Alamo Heights doesn't have. We'll have to wait, but it looks like S at LC will do alot better than Willowbend has done.

[gary]

Does any one think Ridgmar will be able to come back from the dead even with all the removations since Hulen expanded, it's still not the as busy as it was before the 1994 expansion at Hulen.

[tjh1]

I think that both Ridgmar and Hulen's best days are behind them. The only thing i can think of that is keeping Ridgmar alive is Neiman Marcus. With the return to more urban development patterns i wouldnt be the least bit surprised if NM in the next 5 years or so relocated to an area like University Drive, West 7th Street, or even downtown where all of this development is occurring. And if/when that happens it will be safe to call Ridgmar a "dead mall".

[JBB]

As long as the sprawl pipeline to the south (SW Parkway) proceeds as planned, Hulen Mall will have plenty of good days ahead. At least until someone builds a mall in Crowley or Cleburne. Ridgmar probably stands to lose the most as the urban retail on the west side picks up steam.

[jefffwd]

Ridgmar is faring a lot better than its sister peroperty Valley View in Dallas.

Compare tenant lists... http://www.ridgmar.com Click on the map (2 levels)

http://www.shopvalleyviewcenter.com/ VV lost macy*s, Dillard's is or has closed and Steve & Barry's won't be around much longer...

I like the Chili's and the Rave at Ridgmar!

[jefffwd]

Ridgmar is faring a lot better than its sister peroperty Valley View in Dallas.

Compare tenant lists... http://www.ridgmar.com Click on the map (2 levels)

http://www.shopvalleyviewcenter.com/ V V lost macy*s, Dillard's is or has closed and Steve & Barry's won't be around much longer...

I like the Chili's and the Rave at Ridgmar...

[Dallastar]

Ridgmar is faring a lot better than its sister peroperty Valley View in Dallas.

Compare tenant lists... http://www.ridgmar.com Click on the map (2 levels)

http://www.shopvalleyviewcenter.com/ V V lost macy*s, Dillard's is or has closed and Steve & Barry's won't be around much longer...

I like the Chili's and the Rave at Ridgmar...

It should be fairing better, I don't think Ridgmar is right across the street from a Fort Worth Gallaria like Valley View, and as far as Macy's closing at Valley View, their is already one at the Gallaria and then one across the street at Valley View, you make the call, which one will stay and which one will leave.
But I still believe Valley View days are numbered (outside of the AMC movie theater) once ICON start on the $1.5 billion development next to the Gallaria, that entire neighborhood will be transformed, and Valley View will just be out of place. It 's still incredible that 2 malls right next to each other have survived and thrived all these years.

[Fort Worthology]

I'm not sure Ridgmar can be revitalized in its present form. Things are shifting these days. Malls are a dead end in general - some are more healthy than others, and there are still people moving out to the periphery to the southwest so Hulen will be doing well for a little while. Eventually, the oil crash will catch up with them all. Probably not any time real soon, but it's coming.

Ridgmar's draws are probably the Neiman's and the Rave. If NM moves back towards the central city (I doubt they're daring enough to do a downtown Fort Worth store anytime soon - I wish they would, though, because I think the one in downtown Dallas is great - but I could easily see them packing up shop and moving to, say, 7th Street), things might really look bad for Ridgmar. Rave can hang on for a while, though the central city certainly won't be lacking in movie options. The Palace downtown will soon be joined by what looks to be an uber-flashy Movie Tavern on 7th, and they're both surrounded/going to be surrounded by residents, retail, and restaurants. That Movie Tavern's going to be a big draw to people, I think, especially with Lucky Strike Lanes literally in the same block. Then there's the art house crowd that the big theaters in the 'burbs don't even bother to court in most cases - and the central city's going to have two such places soon, with Magnolia at the Modern and the Citizen Theater on the Near Southside.

[Thurman52]

NM owns the land they are on and the building vs a typical anchor, they are committed to the Ridgmar location for many years to come. I agree moving towards W 7th would be cool, I doubt it will ever happen

[Birdland in Handley]

NM's attitude toward Fort Worth is odd. It's like they never considered, or actually rejected Downtown. Wasn't their first, and for a long time only, store a big freestanding thing WAY west, almost to the traffic circle?

[Dismuke]

NM's attitude toward Fort Worth is odd. It's like they never considered, or actually rejected Downtown. Wasn't their first, and for a long time only, store a big freestanding thing WAY west, almost to the traffic circle?

Yes. It was located just before the traffic circle. The building still stands - it is being used as some sort of school these days. It was located there between 1963 and 1977. Keep in mind that back in 1963 downtown was very much on the decline and in 1977 it already had declined. So it would have been highly unusual and radical for them to consider locating in downtown. In 1963, Camp Bowie was the closest thing Fort Worth had to a high end shopping district so, in that context, it made sense to locate there.

When I first moved to Fort Worth from the Dallas area I was amazed to see a Neiman Marcus and a Sears in the same shopping center. That is not something one would see in Dallas.

[Dismuke]

I think the anchor most likely to close at Ridgmar is Sears. I have yet to figure out how Sears has managed to remain in business for so long. One can get similar merchandise elsewhere at a lower price or better merchandise for the same price as one would pay at Sears. If/when Sears goes out, the question then is who will occupy its building.

[cajunmike]

I remember when NM used to be located on was then known as Camp Bowie Blvd near the traffic circle. It was located across from one of the tee boxes on Z-Boaz golf course. I remember playing there and slicing a ball right across Camp Bowie and into the NM parking lot and hitting a car.

Also on the corner of Camp Bowie & Alta Mere in the 70's was the Rhinestone Cowboy a club ran by Stan Farr (TCU Football ) who was killed in the Mansion shootings in August of 1976 and it was later on a Campo Verde Mexican Restaurant. It was a big deal when Larry's Shoes opened a large store on Alta Mere just north of the Rhinestone. In 1976 I bought my first NEW car from David Ryan Oldsmobile who was off Camp Bowie. Times have changed as Olds is no longer in production. We paid $4900.00 for a new 1976 Cutlass Supreme.

[urbancowboy]

It's been a while to since I have been out to Ridgmar. When I am back in Fort Worth, I usually go to Northeast Mall or out to Mansfield, I avoid the Parks Mall area (which is the mall closest to me) like the plague. I am happy that there are more developments happening in the central city. I am hoping for more shopping options downtown because that is where I would do most of my shopping if it were possible. Wasn't Saks considering Downtown before they moved to Northeast Mall. I think they would still be open had they chosen Downtown for there first Fort Worth location. So if Saks were to reopen in a Downtown location do you think Neiman's and other high end retail would follow. And one more thing, what impact do you all see new malls like the one planned in Westlake or in Mansfield at 360 and 287, on the high end market in Fort Worth. Will we be a city that will alway have the high end place in the suburbs? Will we still have to drive to Dallas? I know So7, the Acme Brick project, and Museum Place will have some high end retail, will this be the new high end corridor? What do you all think?

[mmiller2002]

...Eventually, the oil crash will catch up with them all. Probably not any time real soon, but it's coming.

How does the "oil crash" affect a mall worse than other shopping vejues? Even with the trendy urban "mixed-use" shopping playgrounds, most customers have to drive and park. With a mall you can park and shop in air conditioned and heated comfort without rain.

[salvag]

I think you're all overreacting just a tad. Ridgmar mall is doing just fine. Everytime I go there on the weekend it's jam packed. It has Sears, NM, Dillard's, Macy's, Penney's, Old Navy, and the Rave. And I seriously doubt that NM closing would have any serious impact on the mall at all. Let's face it... that area of town isn't exactly Neiman's targeted clientele.

And have any of you ever been to a movie there? The parking lot is absolutely PACKED. I'm sorry, but that mall is in no danger at all.

[McHand]

I think you're all overreacting just a tad. Ridgmar mall is doing just fine. Everytime I go there on the weekend it's jam packed. It has Sears, NM, Dillard's, Macy's, Penney's, Old Navy, and the Rave. And I seriously doubt that NM closing would have any serious impact on the mall at all. Let's face it... that area of town isn't exactly Neiman's targeted clientele.

And have any of you ever been to a movie there? The parking lot is absolutely PACKED. I'm sorry, but that mall is in no danger at all.

In fact, their really aren't any stores to speak of around the inside entrance to NM. Almost like it's sequestered or something. I agree, Ridgmar isn't going anywhere for awhile.

[jefffwd]

Looks like Chili's has closed at Ridgmar and Toni & Guy bolted for West 7th months ago... There are 6 vacancies on the lower level and 12 vacancies on the upper level (including Chili's). Sure Ridgmar has Tarrant County's only Neiman Marcus but it is in need of a major overhaul. The other anchor spots are full with Dillard's, Macy*s, JCPenney/Sephora, Sears and Rave Motion Pictures. There are some other notable stores such as Aeropostale, American Eagle Outfitters, Buckle, Foever 21, Image, John L. Ashe and New York & Company, Windsor and the newly opened Villa Fresh Italian Kitchen. I just would hate to see Ridgmar decline like Valley View in Dallas or see the Dillard's turn into a Clearance Center like Irving Mall. Is Ridgmar's problem its proximity to Hulen and the West 7th developments? I don't know what the occupancy rate for Hulen Mall but NorthEast Mall is near 100%. What are your thoughts on Ridgmar, Hulen, NorthEast and malls in general? Rigmar lists their "coming soon" stores as Cashmere Elegance (cart I think) and Super Bowl Merchandise Store so no long term solution there.

[Cowtown Mike]

It has been several years since I have been in Ridgmar Mall. I remember when in first opened in 1976. My wife worked for a while in customer service in 1977 for a short while. Use to love to see the big B-52's from Carswell fly over. Is the ElChico's still in the mall?

[eastfwther]

Fort Worth simply has bland, generic malls. There is absolutely nothing special about Ridgmar or Hulen. And the Neiman's at Ridgmar is the worst one I've ever visited. I've always been amazed that place hasn't pulled out of Ridgmar years ago. I remember the first time I went to IKEA in Frisco. I couldn't believe the activity level at Stonebriar Mall. That place put both of Fort Worth's malls to shame.

[Cowtown Mike]

Stonebriar has many nice shops along with restaurants and all frontage shops like Sam Moon. The traffic count is very high in Frisco and the area.
My daughter lives in that area. We met her for lunch at the Cheesecake Factory a few weeks ago after early church service and the mall lot was pretty full at 11:30 a.m. on a Sunday. I don't know how Neiman's has stayed open in that location, not that I shop there.

[jefffwd]

Well, although I agree the Ridgmar Neimans it needs a remodel... Westover Hills keeps it alive. As far as Stonebriar goes... have you ever noticed the anchors are the same as NorthEast Mall?

http://www.shopstone...r.com/directory

http://www.simon.com...ory.aspx?id=220

[Dismuke]

When I moved to Fort Worth from Dallas County in the early '90s and first saw Ridgmar Mall, it just amused the heck out of me to see a Neiman Marcus and a Sears store both as anchors in the same mall. That is something that one would have NEVER seen in Dallas, even back then. In fact, not too long after that, a legal battle took place when Bloomingdales closed down its Valley View Mall location. Montgomery Ward attempted to purchase the building from Bloomingdale's parent company as a replacement for its store in the aging and obsolete Northtown Mall (which is now an office park). Valley View went to court and was able to successfully block the sale because they felt that it would undermine the mall's efforts to position itself to compete with the Galleria and Prestonwood for upscale customers. Valley View did have a Sears store - but that actually pre-dated the mall by a number of years.

All these years later, Neiman Marcus being at Ridgmar strikes me as being even more out of place than it did back then.

Years ago I read that Town East Mall in Mesquite was for years extremely successful because it drew from a huge market area well beyond East Dallas, Garland and Mesquite. Its location placed it between I-30 heading towards Texarkana and I-20 heading towards Tyler and East Texas. When people in East Texas made periodic trips to the Metroplex to shop for things they could not easily find in their home towns or in smaller cities such as Tyler, they passed by and usually stopped at Town East Mall and that accounted for a nice percentage of mall sales.

I wonder how much that might be the case with all of the towns heading towards places such as Stephenville, Abilene, Wichita Falls, etc. Presumably people in those towns make periodic trips to Fort Worth. I wonder if Ridgmar (and perhaps Hulen) significantly benefit from that sort of trade - and, if so, to what degree.

Malls, in general, have been declining in popularity for years. And there has been quite a lot of speculation in the financial press that the recession has been severe enough and dragged on long enough that, if/when the economy ever recovers to any significant degree, the frugal habits that many people were forced to acquire for the first time in their lives are going to likely stick. Some are suggesting that this recession will have a similar long term impact on people's financial habits that the Depression had on the generation that lived through it. If you have ever known someone from that generation, they tended to be VERY frugal.

If so, that suggests that there will be a significant shakeout amongst retailers, especially those selling higher priced non-necessities. And those retailers that survive will probably not have the need to operate as many locations as they do today. If that turns out to be the case, that, combined with the decline in malls that has been going on for awhile, does not seem to portend well for Ridgmar and perhaps even for Hulen. It could very well be that perhaps NorthEast Mall and maybe The Parks would be sufficient to serve what demand might be left in Tarrant County for that sort of shopping with other current mall retailers having a broader appeal moving out of the malls altogether. To some degree, that is already starting to happen. The only store at Ridgmar or any other mall, for that matter, that I even occasionally shop at is J.C.Penney. But J.C.Penney has increasingly been opening new locations in free standing buildings along the lines of Kohls. And I have read that those free standing stores have better per square foot stores than do their mall stores. If given a choice between a free standing store and a mall store, I certainly would pick the free standing and avoid the frustration and hassle of having to mess with mall parking.

[jefffwd]

Having high end retailers in a mall with a Sears is not all that uncommon... Even the Mall of America has four anchors Nordstrom, Bloomingdales, Macy*s and Sears. http://www.mallofame...pping/directory Heck, even NorthEast Mall right here has Nordstrom, Dillard's, Macy*s and Sears... Check out Oabrook Center in Oakbrook, Illinois... Macy*s, Lord & Taylor, Bloomingdales, Nordstrom, Neiman Marcus and Sears So, would you ever see Sears at Northpark? No... but it does happen.

[bailey]

Remember that Neimans was previously in a stand alone store on Camp Bowie and elected to move to Ridgmar. There were a few small stores around Neimans but you pretty much had to be planning to go there. In the mall, they can pick up the window shoppers.

I for one prefer the malls to these new open air centers. In the open air centers you have to constantly move your car and walk outside in the elements to go from store to store. Who wants to walk in the rain or venture in and out in 100 degree temps. That will be a good example tonight with plunging temps and gusty winds. I'll take the malls. From what I see, Hulen Mall does very good business. With all the population around it, I would expect that to continue. They have expanded several times over the years.

[jefffwd]

Actually Nordstrom wanted to go into Hulen but Dillard's helped pay for Hulen's last remodel thus giving it the final say on what future anchors could be added and Dillard's said no to Nordstrom. Personally, I if I was Dillard's I would have said yes to Nordstrom... That would have made for an even greater high end destination mall. Sometimes competion breeds business.

[bailey]

Having lived in the area when Hulen Mall was built, I was always surprised how busy it was with only Montgomery Wards and Sanger Harris as anchor stores. It wasn't a very big center. Sears assumed the Montgomery Wards space and with the addition of the other anchors it now has a good variety. I agree that Nordstroms would have been a good addition considering the demographics of the area. Much better than Ridgmar where the area has deterriorated over the years.

[jefffwd]

What would be awesome is to have a Neiman's and Nordstrom either downtown or on West 7th!

[John T Roberts]

I had always heard that Ridgmar Mall did indeed draw from some of the smaller towns out west where the stores in the mall were the closest location. I don't know if Hulen had quite the same attraction.

[bfg9000d]

Other then just walking around the mall to see what the latest trends are and see whats happening and decorations being that its close to Christmas. I generally do not find myself shopping at the major stores in the malls nor the boutiques in the mall.

Between the Boutiques and the Major department stores in general, you are paying a 70 to 90 percent mark up on items purchased in the stores and boutiques. Now grant it on some days there are deals and discounts to be had. But everyday normal shopping you are paying a 70 to 90 percent mark up on just about everything. Allot of people back then couldn't even afford those prices and today especially even more people can't afford those prices. Problem is places like Wal-mart, Sams Club, Costco. Especially Sams Club or Costco. You can find the exact name brand clothing that you would see at finer department stores at Sams Club for leaps and bounds cheaper. Same clothes same name your just paying more at one store then the other. It makes common sense to buy the cheaper one which would be at Sams. Even if you go the wal-mart route a pair of pants is a pair of pants. Whether its designer jeans or not. The joke of it is I have had cheap wal-mart jeans last longer and hold up better. Then expensive designer jeans that I have purchased in a department store. The same goes with shirts, shoes, coats. Now of course sure if you got the money to throw out the window then shop at the boutiques in the mall and the finer departments store pay the 70 to 90 percent mark up.

If you ever sat near registers in the finer department stores and sat at wal-mart. Just watching the difference in clothes and merchandise being purchased is dramatic enough to realize why malls are suffering. I remember back years ago when finer department stores registers use to fill. But I haven't seen that in years. No matter how fancy or how bland the mall is most people don't really care all they want to know is what the price tag says and that's the bottom line. If fancy matter to the general population then wal-mart wouldn't be doing good and Target would be doing better. Now don't get me wrong I like malls but a mall is a mall after all and at the end of the day. What your receipt says in $$$ is what your gonna be most concern about. Not about how fancy the mall you shop at was.

[Dismuke]

I for one prefer the malls to these new open air centers. In the open air centers you have to constantly move your car and walk outside in the elements to go from store to store. Who wants to walk in the rain or venture in and out in 100 degree temps. That will be a good example tonight with plunging temps and gusty winds.

I think it really depends on how one shops.

If you are the sort of person who actually enjoys window shopping and going from store to store to compare merchandise or just browse and the sort of merchandise merchants in malls typically carry appeals to you, then they definitely have their advantages as you point out.

On the other hand, there are people such as myself who much prefer the open air centers. I typically HATE shopping. I usually look upon it as a chore and a hassle - something that I want to get taken care and over with as quickly as possible. Open air centers are good because I can park in reasonable proximity to where I need to go and get in and out without having to contend with the crowds and parking hassles to the degree that I would in a typical mall. On the rare occasion that I do need to patronize a mall retailer that is inside the mall and not one of the anchor stores, I usually go directly to that store, take care of my business and leave the mall entirely. It is extremely rare for me to visit multiple retailers when I visit a mall - which is, in it and of itself, a fairly rare occasion for me.

That's not to say that I don't enjoy browsing on occasion. But, when I do, it is usually within one particular store. For example, I usually enjoy going to Fry's and will sometimes linger awhile and look at all the various gadgets - and I am particularly fascinated at how technology keeps getting cheaper and will actually price items that I already have and am not in the market for just because find it cool to see how much below $100 a 1TB hard drive drops to when I can remember paying more than that for a little over a dozen GB. And I enjoy browsing in places such as Central Market, ethnic grocery stores, book stores, antique stores, etc. But all of that sort of browsing is self-contained within a particular store - and it usually takes place only when I am already there for some specific purpose. The only time I end up going from store to store to store "just looking" is when I am seeking something very specific and hard to find or am doing due diligence price comparisons on an expensive purchase - and that is not something I regard as fun but rather, as a nasty, time consuming chore.

On the other hand, there are plenty of people who look upon shopping as a form of entertainment in its own right. So there is actually a valid need and benefit of both sorts of retail centers - it really depends on one's interests and tastes.

[Dismuke]

Problem is places like Wal-mart, Sams Club, Costco. Especially Sams Club or Costco. You can find the exact name brand clothing that you would see at finer department stores at Sams Club for leaps and bounds cheaper. Same clothes same name your just paying more at one store then the other. It makes common sense to buy the cheaper one which would be at Sams.

bfg9000d - You make a lot of very valid points in your posting. However, there IS a difference in materials and workmanship in high quality clothes and the sort of clothes you will find at the mass market big box retailers that you mention.

There IS a huge difference, for example, between well made, high quality men's dress shoes verses the men's dress shoes you would find at a place such as JC Penney or Kohls and there is even a difference between the men's dress shoes you find at those retailers verses what you would find at a Target or Wal-mart. And I doubt that you would find much in the way of shoes beyond sneakers at a Costco or Sams.

And the same is true for shirts, suits and coats: there is a difference between well made, high quality apparel verses mass market apparel where every aspect of its design and manufacture is subordinated to the goal of making it as affordable and appealing to a wider number of potential customers.

That having been said, not everybody is all that much into clothes - and, therefore, the fact that the person in front of them is wearing high quality clothes verses discount store quality clothes might be completely overlooked and lost on them. And, of the people who are into clothes, many only look at them in view of how much they conform to whatever happens to be "trendy" at the moment and are equally oblivious to quality differences in materials, design and workmanship.

And it should be noted that, of those who ARE aware of the differences, not everybody is either willing to or in a position to pay for top quality. I, for example, DO have a strong appreciation for high quality, classic clothing and very much DO notice the difference whenever I venture into a store that sells high quality merchandise. Nevertheless, I rarely buy at that level of quality. For me, it is a matter of priorities. I try to live under my means and high quality clothing does come at a price. I have no professional need to dress to impress - the company I work for has almost zero in-person interaction with its customers so everybody from top management on down gets to dress however casually they wish. I might go to a handful of social events every year where people are expected to dress nice - but one would not look at all out of place at those events with clothing purchased at JC Penney. In my life, I know exactly one person who would actually notice and be impressed by someone wearing extremely high quality clothes - and this person is already my friend without my having to do so. In short, the only benefit I would get from wearing top quality stuff is the enjoyment I would personally get from wearing it. And I WOULD enjoy it. But there are a lot of other things I enjoy. And since I try to live within my means, I don't even attempt to indulge myself in all of them. So it is a matter of priorities - and there are luxuries such as 78 rpm records that I get greater enjoyment from and thus are a higher priority. If I were more affluent and thus had more money that I could responsibly blow on luxuries, then I would certainly buy top quality clothes - or more precisely, have them custom made.

This, by the way, is NOT to say that the stuff you find in Target or Wal-mart is necessarily to be considered as bad quality. The fact that a higher level of quality is available does not necessarily make something bad - especially if there is a price difference. I have had several pairs of cheapo khaki pants from Wal-mart that served their purpose quite well and lasted - though the cheapo ones at Kohls which cost a little bit more do last longer. But if someone's finances are tight, then being able to save $10 on a pair of khakis that will be perfectly adequate for one's needs is a wonderful thing.

I was once in Wal-mart and noticed a clearance display of madras style casual summer shirts on sale for $4 each. One of them caught my attention because the design on the fabric was very reminiscent of a shirt featured on an early 1930s full color Montgomery Ward advertising circular I had recently won on ebay. At $4 I bought the thing. Funny thing, every time I wore it I got compliments on what a neat looking shirt it was - which amused me to no end because it was from the markdown bin at Wal-mart and cost less than a burger and fries at a fast food joint.

The other thing about the retailers you mention besides quality is that their product selection is focused on what appeals to the widest possible common denominator - which is why they are able to sell for as low as they do. So long as the mass market stuff is adequate for your purpose, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it and buying it will free up money for other things that are of value to you. But good luck at finding shirts with French cuffs of whatever level of quality at Wal-mart or much in the way of variety and selection of ANY category of clothing.

I am NOT suggesting that paying significantly higher prices at malls and specialty stores automatically translates to a proportional increase in quality. Very often people pay the higher price out of no other reason than marketing hype, a desire to be "trendy" or out of sheer ignorance that equally acceptable merchandise can be had elsewhere at a lower price. My point is that the business model of the discount retailers you mentioned is to provide a combination of quality, price and selection that appeals to the widest possible common denominator - and, as a result, they are able to achieve the high level of volume that makes it possible for them to sell at low prices and still make a profit.

But not everybody is willing or able to confine themselves to that common denominator in all areas of their life. If you sell high priced financial services to millionaires, many of your prospective clients will not take you seriously if you are wearing a suit from Target or Kohls even if they, themselves, happen to dress shabby. And while I certainly do not look down my nose at people who that think the mass market Lipton tea sold at Wal-mart is really great, compared to the much higher quality specialty teas at Central Market, mass market supermarket tea tastes like swill to me. And since even high quality tea at $200 per pound is still less expensive per cup than a soda pop from a convenience store it is a very affordable luxury and I have zero interest in the cost savings that I can get from drinking Liption's instead. On the other the other hand, while I do appreciate quality, in most areas of my life I deliberately limit my shopping options to that common denominator simply because I prefer to either save my money or spend it on other things.

[bburton]

I must say this has been one of the most interesting and informative forum threads I've read online in some time. Kudoes to all.

[bfg9000d]

Problem is places like Wal-mart, Sams Club, Costco. Especially Sams Club or Costco. You can find the exact name brand clothing that you would see at finer department stores at Sams Club for leaps and bounds cheaper. Same clothes same name your just paying more at one store then the other. It makes common sense to buy the cheaper one which would be at Sams.

bfg9000d - You make a lot of very valid points in your posting. However, there IS a difference in materials and workmanship in high quality clothes and the sort of clothes you will find at the mass market big box retailers that you mention.

There IS a huge difference, for example, between well made, high quality men's dress shoes verses the men's dress shoes you would find at a place such as JC Penney or Kohls and there is even a difference between the men's dress shoes you find at those retailers verses what you would find at a Target or Wal-mart. And I doubt that you would find much in the way of shoes beyond sneakers at a Costco or Sams.

And the same is true for shirts, suits and coats: there is a difference between well made, high quality apparel verses mass market apparel where every aspect of its design and manufacture is subordinated to the goal of making it as affordable and appealing to a wider number of potential customers.

That having been said, not everybody is all that much into clothes - and, therefore, the fact that the person in front of them is wearing high quality clothes verses discount store quality clothes might be completely overlooked and lost on them. And, of the people who are into clothes, many only look at them in view of how much they conform to whatever happens to be "trendy" at the moment and are equally oblivious to quality differences in materials, design and workmanship.

And it should be noted that, of those who ARE aware of the differences, not everybody is either willing to or in a position to pay for top quality. I, for example, DO have a strong appreciation for high quality, classic clothing and very much DO notice the difference whenever I venture into a store that sells high quality merchandise. Nevertheless, I rarely buy at that level of quality. For me, it is a matter of priorities. I try to live under my means and high quality clothing does come at a price. I have no professional need to dress to impress - the company I work for has almost zero in-person interaction with its customers so everybody from top management on down gets to dress however casually they wish. I might go to a handful of social events every year where people are expected to dress nice - but one would not look at all out of place at those events with clothing purchased at JC Penney. In my life, I know exactly one person who would actually notice and be impressed by someone wearing extremely high quality clothes - and this person is already my friend without my having to do so. In short, the only benefit I would get from wearing top quality stuff is the enjoyment I would personally get from wearing it. And I WOULD enjoy it. But there are a lot of other things I enjoy. And since I try to live within my means, I don't even attempt to indulge myself in all of them. So it is a matter of priorities - and there are luxuries such as 78 rpm records that I get greater enjoyment from and thus are a higher priority. If I were more affluent and thus had more money that I could responsibly blow on luxuries, then I would certainly buy top quality clothes - or more precisely, have them custom made.

This, by the way, is NOT to say that the stuff you find in Target or Wal-mart is necessarily to be considered as bad quality. The fact that a higher level of quality is available does not necessarily make something bad - especially if there is a price difference. I have had several pairs of cheapo khaki pants from Wal-mart that served their purpose quite well and lasted - though the cheapo ones at Kohls which cost a little bit more do last longer. But if someone's finances are tight, then being able to save $10 on a pair of khakis that will be perfectly adequate for one's needs is a wonderful thing.

I was once in Wal-mart and noticed a clearance display of madras style casual summer shirts on sale for $4 each. One of them caught my attention because the design on the fabric was very reminiscent of a shirt featured on an early 1930s full color Montgomery Ward advertising circular I had recently won on ebay. At $4 I bought the thing. Funny thing, every time I wore it I got compliments on what a neat looking shirt it was - which amused me to no end because it was from the markdown bin at Wal-mart and cost less than a burger and fries at a fast food joint.

The other thing about the retailers you mention besides quality is that their product selection is focused on what appeals to the widest possible common denominator - which is why they are able to sell for as low as they do. So long as the mass market stuff is adequate for your purpose, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it and buying it will free up money for other things that are of value to you. But good luck at finding shirts with French cuffs of whatever level of quality at Wal-mart or much in the way of variety and selection of ANY category of clothing.

I am NOT suggesting that paying significantly higher prices at malls and specialty stores automatically translates to a proportional increase in quality. Very often people pay the higher price out of no other reason than marketing hype, a desire to be "trendy" or out of sheer ignorance that equally acceptable merchandise can be had elsewhere at a lower price. My point is that the business model of the discount retailers you mentioned is to provide a combination of quality, price and selection that appeals to the widest possible common denominator - and, as a result, they are able to achieve the high level of volume that makes it possible for them to sell at low prices and still make a profit.

But not everybody is willing or able to confine themselves to that common denominator in all areas of their life. If you sell high priced financial services to millionaires, many of your prospective clients will not take you seriously if you are wearing a suit from Target or Kohls even if they, themselves, happen to dress shabby. And while I certainly do not look down my nose at people who that think the mass market Lipton tea sold at Wal-mart is really great, compared to the much higher quality specialty teas at Central Market, mass market supermarket tea tastes like swill to me. And since even high quality tea at $200 per pound is still less expensive per cup than a soda pop from a convenience store it is a very affordable luxury and I have zero interest in the cost savings that I can get from drinking Liption's instead. On the other the other hand, while I do appreciate quality, in most areas of my life I deliberately limit my shopping options to that common denominator simply because I prefer to either save my money or spend it on other things.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, A couple of points which I failed to make. I will use Fry's Electronics\Best Buy as a example I know we could use clothes but less keep it simple. I find it amazing how people will walk into Fry's or Best Buy. Purchase electronic items. That I know from pricing can be found for significantly more cheaper just doing a few searches online, then going into a Electronics boutique or larger electronics store. They don't even have to leave their houses. But they will waste money and gas to go to Fry's/Best Buy to purchase something that can be had much much cheaper online.

I built my whole custom computer online. I had it ship right to my door. I priced my computer to what it would cost at Fry's the difference was enough that I would not have been able to afford my computer at Fry's. Allot of apparel that use to be only had at malls, boutiques, and finer department stores can easily be found on online without the mark up. In fact a couple of months ago the last few apparel items I purchased. Which where all high quality, designer stuff, was online. When I compared the same base stuff at the finer department stores. The price savings difference was a no brainer as to who to buy it from. When it comes to wal-mart and sams. I find there pricing to be pretty close enough to what you see online. If I see a difference I will just pick it up online. The problem I see is that online ordering is starting to fill the gap of the custom, designer, high quality apparel and electronics leaving allot of mall department store and boutiques in the dark. If they can't keep there prices down then department stores will continue to have poor profit returns close and merge with other department stores as we have seen. Cyber Monday was a great example of malls and stores being emptied in preference to shopping online. I even notice a huge drop of people at Wal-mart because of cyber monday. At the very least it got people in the mind set to shop online for what they wanted instead of a mall or a boutique. As much as I like the atmosphere of a mall. I'm afraid they represent a large in part how things use to be before the internet.

[hannerhan]

One thing to realize on Neiman Marcus at Ridgmar is that it's basically a stand-alone store. It happens to be connected to the mall, but 95% of mall traffic doesn't go into Ridgmar and 95% of NM traffic doesn't go into the mall.

And the physical space might be a little out-dated but I'm sure the rent is dirt cheap, and they have the built-in clientele that will never go away.

That said, I can definitely see demand for a high-end freestanding store around West 7th. How great would it be for Museum Place to land a Nordstrom (or whatever) and put it on the block between Camp Bowie and 7th as a high quality retail anchor for the rest of the development.

[rsowell73]

What would be awesome is to have a Neiman's and Nordstrom either downtown or on West 7th!

I totally agree!!!

[bfg9000d]

One thing to realize on Neiman Marcus at Ridgmar is that it's basically a stand-alone store. It happens to be connected to the mall, but 95% of mall traffic doesn't go into Ridgmar and 95% of NM traffic doesn't go into the mall.

And the physical space might be a little out-dated but I'm sure the rent is dirt cheap, and they have the built-in clientele that will never go away.

That said, I can definitely see demand for a high-end freestanding store around West 7th. How great would it be for Museum Place to land a Nordstrom (or whatever) and put it on the block between Camp Bowie and 7th as a high quality retail anchor for the rest of the development.

I totally agree as well.

[John T Roberts]

Ridgmar Mall was sold this week to GK Development and they want to attract new retailers to the mall.