616 replies to this topic

[Fort Worthology]

WFAA just ran a quick blurb on today's scheduled Lancaster TIF board meeting with the developers. Everyone grab your knickers and pretend to be shocked: the developers didn't show up. Now looks like a good time for another developer to enter the picture.

 

[Big Frog II]

What else have these people ever built or developed?

[Fort Worthology]

They better be careful - at this rate, the city is only going to give them fifteen or twenty more chances.

[johnfwd]

They better be careful - at this rate, the city is only going to give them fifteen or twenty more chances.

There's nothing like sarcasm grounded in factual reality.

[johnfwd]

The Star-Telegram ran this piece about the TIF Board giving the Cleopatra group until September to come clean on rehab plans or else risk losing its special tax status.  I'm not a developer so I don't know whether this will spur them to action or they (i.e. all parties involved) will ignore it and leave the structure in its dilapidated state for a few more years.

 

 

http://www.star-tele...le14699402.html

[Big Frog II]

The Star-Telegram ran this piece about the TIF Board giving the Cleopatra group until September to come clean on rehab plans or else risk losing its special tax status.  I'm not a developer so I don't know whether this will spur them to action or they (i.e. all parties involved) will ignore it and leave the structure in its dilapidated state for a few more years.

 

 

http://www.star-tele...le14699402.html

If they have any intentions of doing this project, they better act fast or lose their chance for the $11 million grant.  The project would probably be hard pull off without that free money and be profitable.  Maybe if they do have the TIF money pulled they will sell.

[JBB]

Other projects coming to fruition along Lancaster - the Pinnacle Bank project, the mixed use buildings in the abandoned roadway corridor, the Omni expansion, etc. - and some of the projects to the south on Vickery will continue to increase the value of the property and push the owner to develop or sell.

I wouldn't count on the TIF money being pulled to prompt any action. A couple of months ago, we were hearing that the city was ready to call their bluff. Now they miss this meeting and the board gives them an additional six months to get their act together. I'm not taking the board's threats real serious at this point. Why would the owner?

[RD Milhollin]

The Star-Telegram ran this piece about the TIF Board giving the Cleopatra group until September to come clean on rehab plans or else risk losing its special tax status.  I'm not a developer so I don't know whether this will spur them to action or they (i.e. all parties involved) will ignore it and leave the structure in its dilapidated state for a few more years.

 

 

http://www.star-tele...le14699402.html

 

 

There has to be a better way to go about discouraging this sort of behavior other than throwing free money at deadbeat pseudo-developers. The city has lost several historic and preservable structures to managed neglect over the years, how best to prevent this sort of loss?

 

Is there the possibility of adjusting the property tax structure to provide for a higher valuation for vacant lots and derelict or vacant buildings, while providing a lower marginal rate for improved and code-compliant properties? If yes, perhaps this same sort of approach would be used to encourage multistory construction; i.e. higher rates for the first and second floors, then marginally lower rates for the upper floors...

[JBB]

Is there the possibility of adjusting the property tax structure to provide for a higher valuation for vacant lots and derelict or vacant buildings, while providing a lower marginal rate for improved and code-compliant properties?

I love this idea, but I fear it would be a pipe dream in a pro-property owner state and area such as ours. I also worry that it would have the same wrong impact as aggressively enforcing code: you just bully the owner into demolition. It eventually becomes cheaper to knock it down than pay the fines or the extra taxes.

If yes, perhaps this same sort of approach would be used to encourage multistory construction; i.e. higher rates for the first and second floors, then marginally lower rates for the upper floors...

Totally uneducated opinion on my part, but I see a situation where the tax breaks wouldn't be enough to overcome the economics of building vertically. If someone hasn't figured out a way thus far to incentivize vertical construction in tax-break friendly FW, I question whether or not it's possible.

[Fort Worthology]

With the T&P Warehouse being an actually protected structure (as opposed to the basically fake protection of the demolition delay status), are there any steps to be taken from that perspective to make the owners either, shall we say, do it or get off the pot?

[johnfwd]

With the T&P Warehouse being an actually protected structure (as opposed to the basically fake protection of the demolition delay status), are there any steps to be taken from that perspective to make the owners either, shall we say, do it or get off the pot?

 

My belief has been that, at some point when a structure such as this is beyond rehabilitation, it should no longer be protected based on historical preservation.  Some here have stated, with authority, that the Warehouse is still salvageable.  Since I'm no structural engineer, I can't argue with that.  I am upset by the discriminatory practices of the City of Fort Worth in enforcing the code through what seems to be "pick and choose" condemnation proceedings.  The city will go into lower-class neighborhoods to demolish substandard housing without blinking an eye.  But when it comes to this decades-old monstrosity that has contributed to the blight of the south downtown, the city bends over backward in their tolerance of the owner's neglect.  I have argued that perhaps a petition signed by downtown property owners and businesses and presented to the City Council might have some influence in getting the ball rolling on a Warehouse rehab project.  Or maybe not.

[David Love]

I think city should annex it rehab it in stages:

• Start out with a huge storage facility.
  • Will fix a lot of the basics, water, electric, sanitation.
  • Nothing fancy, rooms with locks, no AC, just a light or two.
  • Low cost yet it can pull a $1 per square foot, due to it's location to EVERYTHING
• Recoup some costs, then consider a conversion later.

I think the structure is so large that the normal "redo everything and make it really flashy" prices it out of range to everyone but the super large developers and they know better and would rather start with a parking lot.

 

So.... Storage or break it up into sections and sell it off to various entities, similar to the Tower, which has FIVE.

[JBB]

I have argued that perhaps a petition signed by downtown property owners and businesses and presented to the City Council might have some influence in getting the ball rolling on a Warehouse rehab project.  Or maybe not. [/size]

"Money" is the influence that will get the project rolling. Petitions that aren't in support of some type of legal recourse or ballot initiative are a waste of time and aren't usually worth the paper they're printed on.

I still can't believe we're hearing the "it's too big to redevelop" argument. I offer these photos without commentary as evidence to the contrary:







The right plan from the right developer will come along. The property is too valuable and too prominently located to not come together. The city taking the property's potential tax value off of the books would be catastrophic.

[renamerusk]

 

I am for using it for government purposes for sure.  Prisons, schools, City Hall, High School etc...  We spend too much to build new buildings at taxpayer expense while great solid old buildings sit vacant.  Like the big fancy FAA building in the Mercantile section up North.  That should have been in this T&P building.  When we are spending money we don't have, we have to be smarter and make some compromises. 

 

I took this shot from Vickery Blvd. on Saturday night.  I always figure this is the largest building in town.

 

 

ANY one of those, except a prison. 

In fact, I'm increasingly thinking of it as a good place for a satellite campus for a university. UT, A&M, Tech... even TCC if they needed more space.  

 

Quit fooling around with this Cleopatra Woman and do something bold.   I would hope that the city and the state would work together to get this region a RU/VH -research university very high- that it needs to compete with Austin, College Station and Houston.  I say bring the research arm of Texas Tech to Fort Worth.

[gdvanc]

There has to be a better way to go about discouraging this sort of behavior other than throwing free money at deadbeat pseudo-developers. The city has lost several historic and preservable structures to managed neglect over the years, how best to prevent this sort of loss?
 
Is there the possibility of adjusting the property tax structure to provide for a higher valuation for vacant lots and derelict or vacant buildings, while providing a lower marginal rate for improved and code-compliant properties? If yes, perhaps this same sort of approach would be used to encourage multistory construction; i.e. higher rates for the first and second floors, then marginally lower rates for the upper floors...

Land Value Tax. Used in several countries. In the US, I think Pennsylvania uses it. The idea is to tax land at its full value, and to discourage people from making speculative investments that they just sit on for years. It would probably also make inner-city parking lots less profitable.

[gdvanc]

I say bring the research arm of Texas Tech to Fort Worth.

Get them or the dang Aggies to turn it into a vertical farm with aeroponic research facilities and all that craic.

[Big Frog II]

September must be a drop dead date.  There can be no extension of the tax rebate to this person after that time.  Right now apartment rents in Fort Worth are sky high.  If she had any intentions of making this project work, it would already by under construction or ready for occupancy.

[johnfwd]

I stand corrected regarding my statements (Post# 161) lambasting the City of Fort Worth for not taking condemnation action against the current owner.  It must have been in the news and I just didn't notice, but the City of Fort Worth did bring a condemnation suit against Cleopatra Investments LTD, among numerous other defendants, in County Court at Law No. 2 back in August 2011. The case was Cause No. 2011-006217-2 for anyone who cares to look it up online. The case was dismissed last November by court order of non-suit.  But at least the city made an effort, and I must apologize!

[RD Milhollin]

Was the No-Suit motion made by the plaintiff (City of Fort Worth) or was it compulsory from the court? Can the city file the case again?

[johnfwd]

Was the No-Suit motion made by the plaintiff (City of Fort Worth) or was it compulsory from the court? Can the city file the case again?

You have to access the case documents in order to determine who filed the non-suit notices and whether it was with or without prejudice (i.e., whether or not you can refile). The online case record from the county clerk search of court records on the tarrantcounty.com website does not allow you such access.  You can download documents from the terminal at the courthouse. Here's the direct link (just type in 2011-006217-2 in the box labeled case number):

 

https://odyssey.tarr...=All CCL Courts

[John T Roberts]

Preservation Texas has named the T&P Warehouse as one of its most endangered places in the state.

 

http://www.twcnews.c...s-in-texas.html

[RD Milhollin]

Endangered? YES! It is falling apart slowly as we sit here and type or read.

[johnfwd]

Nishimura goes in depth on this in an article in the FWBP, including an interview with City Councilman Jordan.

 

http://fwbusinesspre...t-deadline.aspx

[John T Roberts]

Here's a link to the Fort Worth Star-Telegram article on the building making the Most Endangered List:

 

http://www.star-tele...le15369977.html

[RD Milhollin]

I seriously wonder at the wisdom of designating ALL the residential units as low-income housing. The pre-agreement scheme seems to say that the theme of the redevelopment is going to be an artist colony, but are there really 500 artists in Fort Worth who are going to be willing to live in that building? Is the idea to attract them from other places? If the artists don't show up who is going to take up the slack? What is an artist, and who is going to make and enforce that definition? In general it seems bad practice to concentrate a large number of low income, un-and under-employed people in one place, especially where employment opportunities may be overwhelmed by job-seekers. I am all for providing below-market housing opportunities, just not massive numbers of them massed together. Wasn't this the failed premise of the high-rise slums created by urban renewal programs of the 1950s and '60s? 

 

The upper floors of this and other buildings will appeal to higher-income residents, whose rents would help to offset the reduced rates for "artists" and others living on lower (less-desirable) floors. The roof might appeal to someone wanting to provide an entertainment venue of some sort, and there is probably some call for offices for professionals who would provide services for residents and others, most likely on more accessible lower floors. 

 

Is the thinking of the owners to secure more grants and tax-dodges by providing rent-subsidized ("section 8" or similar) housing? 

[Doohickie]

Alright, I'll move in.

[Doohickie]

I rode by the T&P Warehouse last night with the Night Riders. I was with the group so I couldn't stop, but we noticed that there was a lot of concrete/stone debris sprayed between the building and Lancaster (and even out into the street). Is the building falling apart?

[johnfwd]

I rode by the T&P Warehouse last night with the Night Riders. I was with the group so I couldn't stop, but we noticed that there was a lot of concrete/stone debris sprayed between the building and Lancaster (and even out into the street). Is the building falling apart?

Walking by it on the way to the P.O. this afternoon, I, too, saw this debris.  I also did a cursory eye inspection of the exterior structure to see if the debris originated there.  Doesn't look like it, but you probably can't tell from an outside view.  But the debris covers a small area of the frontage, sidewalk and parking space (good thing no one was sitting on the sidewalk bench or car parked there at the time!)

[Austin55]

Yea I had to be somewhere after class but I did a slow drive by with camera. So these shots are very poor, but I can't figure out where they came from either. 

 

 

I thought perhaps one of the brick filled windows had collapsed, but looking at an older shot in street view it looks the same. The bricks appear lighter than whats used on the building to. It also seems like they radiate outwards from Lancaster, not the base of the building.  There doesn't appear to be any damage to the metal awning structure either. 

 

My guess is either they got there by falling off something that was driving past, or tresspassers threw them from the roof of the building. 

[RD Milhollin]

Maybe someone is inside the building throwing all the rocks that knocked out the windows BACK out. For this building and this owner that would be a pretty major step forward.

 

Is there not a way that a citizen could sue the city for not enforcing the building code? I would guess that if a building a block away from Sundance Square had windows knocked out and not replaced pretty quick there would be code officials all over it. At a minimum they need to cover over the windows, fix the roof, and pump out the basement.

[Dylan]

Yikes!

[jefffwd]

Just implode the ugly thing and be done with it. 

[johnfwd]

Maybe someone is inside the building throwing all the rocks that knocked out the windows BACK out. For this building and this owner that would be a pretty major step forward.

 

Is there not a way that a citizen could sue the city for not enforcing the building code? I would guess that if a building a block away from Sundance Square had windows knocked out and not replaced pretty quick there would be code officials all over it. At a minimum they need to cover over the windows, fix the roof, and pump out the basement.

Point well taken.  This structure is the suspected source because of its dilapidated condition, even if the debris was spill from a dump truck.  I've argued here before about the liability issues arising from this potential public safety hazard, and the city is clearly responsible for negligence in code violation enforcement, a claim that might survive an immunity defense.  You can bet that there would have been a lawsuit if a person was injured or a car damaged as a result of this incident.

[Doohickie]

Hope from Detroit: Windows get installed in Michigan Central Station. If Detroit can start to take care of its derelict buildings, why not Fort Worth?

[johnfwd]

Hope from Detroit: Windows get installed in Michigan Central Station. If Detroit can start to take care of its derelict buildings, why not Fort Worth?

 

While I agree with you, we all know it's going to take more than windows to restore the T&P Warehouse.  But, in light of the dismal status quo, anything is better than nothing.

[Austin55]

There is work going on at the building today, it appears they are welding the Windows on the 2nd floor shut with rebar.

[Big Frog II]

At what point can the city step in and make the owners repair the building to prevent further deterioration?

[johnfwd]

At what point can the city step in and make the owners repair the building to prevent further deterioration?

 

The city can enforce code violations and/or bring a condemnation suit against the owner.   In fact, a condemnation suit was brought against the owner about four years ago but it was later dismissed (I am not privy as to the reason for the city's decision to non-suit).

[Austin55]

They have new plans and a new development partner. Cleopatra actually showed up to the TIF meeting. They were granted another extension as well. 

 

 

building will be transformed into 260 loft-style apartments with a hotel on its east side

 

 http://www.star-tele...l#storylink=cpy

[Big Frog II]

When I think about this building, I think about Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown.

[RD Milhollin]

Is Cleopatra buying cred by bringing on an actual successful re-developer? I hope that "street-level restaurants" is reporter shorthand for ground floor retail in general, as there is going to be a need for services other than food for that many residents in one building. What about the roof? Great place for a restaurant or club. Hotel on the east side? I don't know about how practical that will be. Installing windows and utilities to make apartments is one thing but what sort of renovations are going to be needed to put in hotel rooms? Is this going to be a-loft hotel since the apartments are loft-style? The hotel idea is going to add a lot of costs, just in multiple elevators, that a strictly residential use would not require. There is going to be a need for low-cost hotel rooms downtown, maybe they are shooting for that end of the market, i.e. smaller rooms, fewer amenities. Might be more cost effective to renovate an existing hotel or build from the ground up for that sort of use though. The element causing me the most concern about this project is that Cleopatra is still involved. IMO that company should have been pressured to sell to a more credible developer by the city a LONG time ago.

[johnfwd]

The rehab work on this dilapidated structure is going to be a mighty undertaking!

 

Part-condos/part-hotel is not unusual, as we've seen with Omni.  But that's a vertical schemata.  It'll be interesting to see a building design showing a horizontal separation of hotel from the western part of the building.

[T&PLoftDweller]

"Hotel on the east side? I don't know about how practical that will be. Installing windows and utilities to make apartments is one thing but what sort of renovations are going to be needed to put in hotel rooms? Is this going to be a-loft hotel since the apartments are loft-style? The hotel idea is going to add a lot of costs, just in multiple elevators, that a strictly residential use would not require."

I have been inside the warehouse and I think a boutique hotel on the east side would be a great use. Compared to the rest of the building it would be easy to retrofit. The east side was originally office space and already has its own elevator shafts, restrooms with plumbing, larger windows, and a reception area on the first floor. It is also separated from the warehouse portion of the building by large fire resistant doors which I assume the could leave and seal off to add to the industrial look.

[Jeriat]

They have new plans and a new development partner. Cleopatra actually showed up to the TIF meeting. They were granted another extension as well. 

 

 

building will be transformed into 260 loft-style apartments with a hotel on its east side

 

 http://www.star-tele...l#storylink=cpy

 

I expected a hotel to come out of this is SOME way... 

[John T Roberts]

Here's the article in Fort Worth Business regarding the project.

 

http://www.fortworth...c3095cfee2.html

[Austin55]

It sounds like it will be similar to the previous renderings we've seen, including the drive through the middle, rooftop pool, etc. 

[Doohickie]

When I think about this building, I think about Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown.

 

Yep.

 

The other thing that does that is the whole Dream Vision thing.  Except there isn't even a football.

[Jeriat]

 

When I think about this building, I think about Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown.

 

Yep.

 

The other thing that does that is the whole Dream Vision thing.  Except there isn't even a football.

 

 

Well at least this time around, the Warehouse has a few factors that would make you believe that at least it's close to actually happening. 

- The Hemphill-Lamar connector is under construction 
- The other Lancaster Corridor projects are beginning to take shape in some way. 

- Cleopatra brought someone else in.  

[Doohickie]

I started to type "I hope so" but this snuck into my head-

 

"It'll be different from now on, honey.  I promise."

[johnfwd]

It's hard to believe this city's long nightmare (i.e. haunted house) is finally coming to an end.  I won't open the champagne bottle until it actually happens, however.

 

Now I believe the only remaining conspicuous historical structure around downtown needing a facelift is the public market building.