706 replies to this topic

[John T Roberts]

Sam, that might be an interesting topic for a new thread over in City Issues.

Redhead, here is the site plan. The side of the Super Target is fronting Carroll. There will be two main entrances to the building on its south side. One is near Carroll and the other is on axis with the hold carved through the historic store/warehouse. There is a thread on the merits/lack of merits of the site plan located here: http://www.fortworth...wtopic=213&st=0 and this is an old site plan when Home Depot was going to be built next to the Super Target.



This is a more current site plan in black and white:

[krepanie]

My husband and I drive by this building every day on my way to work. We noticed this morning that they have begun to tear down the front wall of the center section. There is some very noticable progress. Also, they have installed about 1/3 of the windows on the West side.

Does anyone know what kind of prices these will be?

[John T Roberts]

I was at my monthly Historic Fort Worth Board Meeting at lunch and parked at the lot next to the Ball-Eddleman-McFarland House. I could see from there the beginning of the demolition of the front facade. I didn't have time to take pictures, but I will swing by there after work. I will have these late afternoon pictures posted this evening.

[JBB]

I drove by this afternoon and it looks like all they've done so far is removed a portion of the facade on the floor directly under the new truss work.

[John T Roberts]

I took the front of the building from two locations. One was from across 7th Street and the other was from the levee by the duck pond. I decided to show the front from across the street.

Overall view showing the concrete structure removed in front of the truss. I also went around back and they did the same thing on the back side.


Close up of center section of building.

[Thurman52]

I drove by today. They have a new sign at Carrol and 7th. Still lists the project as mixed used, entertainment, etc. but to me it's all suburban bix box..

That is a big wall on the Eastside of Carrol, Target is going overpower Linwood.

[hooked]

There is an interesting article in today's StarTelegram regarding antiquated deed restrictions and their possible effects on this project and other proposed developments along W 7th.

[John T Roberts]

For these construction shots, I moved around a little bit. The first one is the front facade from the southwest showing more of the hole being demolished. Probably by next weekend, the hole will be almost completely carved out.


This next shot is a detail of the truss and the demolition.


Have any of you changed your opinion of the hole through the middle of the building? Do you like it better or less than you did previously. I realize it is a little early, but it won't be long before the front facade will be completely altered.

[DrkLts]

John T Roberts Posted Today, 08:22 AM
Have any of you changed your opinion of the hole through the middle of the building? Do you like it better or less than you did previously. I realize it is a little early, but it won't be long before the front facade will be completely altered.

Not me, I was for the hole from the begining. I'm waiting for the project to be complete to see how it turned out. Then I'll know if I like it more or not.

[John T Roberts]

It probably was a little too early to ask, but the new shape is certainly beginning to take form.

[djold1]

Let's consider the "portal" from another intellectual angle. If the original building had been built that way with the bridge, and it certainly could have been, what opinion would we have had then or now? Be honest.

As I have said from the beginning, I have no problem with the alteration. Especially as it seems to be developing now. I have lived in FW since 1971 and at one time passed this building almost daily. I knew people who worked there.

While I would have had no objection if they had decided not to pierce it, I have always felt that in spite of its superficial ornamentation that it is basically a boring lump. Fine for a warehouse, fine for a Wards store, but an esthetic lump, nonetheless.

IMHO, as I said in an earlier post, I think the portal gives visual variety, changes the horizontal lump into two connected towers with better vertical dimensions and still maintains the integrity of the original design which should have been two or more stories taller to give it character.

My $.01 worth..

[Shocker]

It doesn't change my opinion, as I really liked the renderings from the start. I'll tell you what I don't like is the windows they're installing. I don't think they look good at all. That's my opinion, but the rest of the project I like.

[WTx]

I drove by yesterday and the resurface job looks good. Those west facing windows are going to be hot about July and August in the evening. I don't think the windows look bad at all.

[SurplusPopulation]

I drive by here every day and I have been excited to see the windows go in and the resurfacing/painting as they all gradually wrap around the building. I think they look great; this building will look sharp once they are done.
In regard to the hole, I love your point djold1. If the building had been built like this from the beginning how we would all feel? What are we protecting if we only protect the integrity of a building's original design? Is there never any chance someone could improve a structure (even though it may be dramatically different from the original)?
I can't wait to drive through it!

[djold1]

While I do like the piercing of the building as it is going, I can't believe that they really are going to let cars go through there. I have been against that from the beginnning.

There is no real need to run motor traffic through there. It should have been developed as a pedestrian area with shops facing in and maybe open air seating, etc. I would not want to live above the exhaust fumes and noise that is going to happen now. Especially when it could have been designed out.

[WTx]

There is no real need to run motor traffic through there.

Carroll Street with only two lanes, I imagine, is going to become a traffic nightmare when the development is open. The driveway through the middle will relieve traffic on Carroll. I am not disagreeing with you this is just how I see the need for the hole in the middle of the building.

[grow_smart]

There is no real need to run motor traffic through there.

Carroll Street with only two lanes, I imagine, is going to become a traffic nightmare when the development is open. The driveway through the middle will relieve traffic on Carroll. I am not disagreeing with you this is just how I see the need for the hole in the middle of the building.

If my memory is correct, I believe Carroll will be re-striped to a two-lane road with a center-turn lane. I also think I read that the signal at 7th and Carroll will be upgraded as well.

[WTx]

my memory is correct, I believe Carroll will be re-striped to a two-lane road with a center-turn lane. I also think I read that the signal at 7th and Carroll will be upgraded as well.

Good, I can't imagine a development like this without some kind of redo to Carroll.

[SouthSideAllan2000]

I think the 'hole' puts more emphasize on the top which I had never really noticed before and I really like. The hole makes it look less like a warehouse, like someone mentioned before. I think it will look great but I am wondering about the street through it. I guess I'll wait and see.

[renamerusk]

.....  I also think I read that the signal at 7th and Carroll will be upgraded as well.

So, there will be three traffic signals on West 7th Street; one for So7; one for MW; and another for Carroll Street. That is a lot of traffic signals for such a short distance which are likely to cause an infuriating case of "stop and go" traffic.
Eliminate the vehicular tunnel; or divert the traffic to Carroll Street and So7th; or better yet, designate the tunnel for use as a pedestrian right-of-way.

"Keep Fort Worth Folksy!"

[Sam Stone]

This is such a terrible site plan. There should be a NS through street on the east side of the property. I can probably think of a hundred other little things that should be done differently too.

[djold1]

Sam..

The idea of the NS street to the east using the old loading dock area between the railroad is very good. On my DeLorme Street Atlas of 2000, there is a little stub of Vacek street running south from the Weisenberger intersection. It's almost a straight shot. As I remember there isn't anything but the new development in that area bounded on the east by the FWWR Railroad.

I wonder if they are thinking of that? It certainly wouldn't be a big deal to do, at least from this perspective and would open the traffic up I would think.

It's hard to believe they would short-space a traffic signal for the portal so close to Carrol. Traffic would be a mess. I always kind of assumed that most of the turning into the portal would be from the westbound lane and there would be no signal.

I would almost bet that if they do let traffic through the portal that it wouldn't be too long before some planner genius would recommend an "improvement" so they could get more retail into the space on both sides. If they have retail there with traffic running through as planned, the access will be very difficult in that 40' space.

[mosteijn]

My opinion is still that this is the one of the biggest embarrassments for modern urban development in the entire country. IMHO, this is the #1 project in the city that deserved NO tax abatements. Not just because of the senseless hole in the MW building, but the moronic site plan that belongs in a city like Arlington and not in central Fort Worth. Someday, I'll convince someone to buy the property and replace everything on the site except the warehouse, and maybe Fort Worth will get the true urban masterpiece that the MW site (and the city, for that matter) deserves.

[grow_smart]

.....  I also think I read that the signal at 7th and Carroll will be upgraded as well.

So, there will be three traffic signals on West 7th Street; one for So7; one for MW; and another for Carroll Street. That is a lot of traffic signals for such a short distance which are likely to cause an infuriating case of "stop and go" traffic.
Eliminate the vehicular tunnel; or divert the traffic to Carroll Street and So7th; or better yet, designate the tunnel for use as a pedestrian right-of-way.

"Keep Fort Worth Folksy!"

No, there will not be a signal at the 'hole' - they are just upgrading the one at Carroll. Just 2 signals in this stretch, at least for now. I think the developers were pushing for a third. You may need one in the future if/when the collision center goes away and you want to cross pedestrians here.

The problem with a roadway to the west is that you end up too close to the railroad tracks, or have to build an at-grade crossing, which is VERY expensive (as the City found out the hard way w/ So7.

[grow_smart]

I would almost bet that if they do let traffic through the portal that it wouldn't be too long before some planner genius would recommend an "improvement" so they could get more retail into the space on both sides. If they have retail there with traffic running through as planned, the access will be very difficult in that 40' space.

You bring up a very interesting issue - especially as it relates to the redevelopment of urban areas in Texas. There needs to be a balance between the 'urban friendly' nature of the development (read: walkable), but at the same time you need to do something to accommodate the vehicular demand that we all know will exist. I'm only tree-topping this discussion, but here are the basics. You have a couple different options...

- you could simply underpark the site, don't provide enough capacity for vehicles, and thereby promote pedestrian activity. BUT - by doing that, are you essentially keeping people away, because they know traffic is a nightmare? Is this then counter-productive, resulting in a lack of anything (Sante Fe Rail Depot?? - non-traditional site, no urban mass around it) This is especially true when you don't have a dense neighborhood around it to provide the mass of people needed to sustain the development.

- alternatively, you build the site in a suburban style and provide the parking and capacity you need. The retailers like it, but it certainly does not promote people walking.

I see M. Plaza as sort of a mix of the 2...you'll have ST in the back that's true suburban, but you'll have boutiqu type retail and living units on 7th street. It will be interesting to see how pedestrian friendly it really becomes.

[WTx]

Anyone know if the building will have good lighting? A nice lighting scheme would make a better skyline view from off W 7th.

[John T Roberts]

Night Rendering with lighting:


Shocker, what don't you like about the new windows?

[safly]

I couldn't agree more on your points. Mayor had def. goofed this one. The idea of handing out money to a new emerging developer when other competing business had put their interests in the area long before this plan, and still receive none is an outcry. I hope it sustains the potential some see in it. I would love to see it pedestrian friendly throughout the middle concourse and plaza, much like the Old Town center in Pasadena, CA. Create parking garages on the outside or underground, like Chicago's Grant Park area. Have the cars drive through the plaza only a 1/3 of the way through and then proceed to an underground parking tunnel, then up and out through the same area other side. Make parking expensive like $3/hour, to promote limiting traffic.

[safly]

And I STILL believe they should create a W to E cut through for pedestrians and plaza dining al fresco.

[Sam Stone]

Donnie, you sum it up perfectly. That is exactly how I feel.

Safly, not to let the mayor off the hook, but the subsidy was in the works before he got elected.

[John T Roberts]

Well, the hole is completely through the front facade now. Only a pile of rubble lies at the original entrance to the building. I took three shots of the warehouse yesterday and one of the Super Target. Let's start with the Super Target in the back. This is how it currently looks.



Montgomery Ward Store/Warehouse:

[Sam Stone]

I'm never sure about colors when I see them on the web. It looks bone white. What color are they painting it exactly? Is that the final color or just a base coat or primer?

A darker, cream color would go better with mission style, don't you think?

To amend my response to Donny: I could live with the hole if the rest of the project were done right. But it's not, so the hole is like insult upon injury.

[John T Roberts]

Sam, the coating on the concrete looks very close to a bone white. I don't have the plans and specs for the project, so I can't say what that color is or even if it is the final color. A darker color would go better with the mission style, but after looking at old pictures of the building, I'm not so sure that this isn't very far from the original color of the building.

Sorry guys, I can't live with the hole. I'm just too much of a purist. I think the developer could have driven cars through a 1 story arched opening that matched the original on each side of a rebuilt main entry pavilion. The bay spacing looks wide enough for one lane of traffic to enter on one side and the other lane of traffic to exit on the other. Then after the traffic cleared the narrow section of the building, the lanes could merge into a two lane street with head in parking on each side between the wings of the building. Even though this wouldn't have been a true restoration, then all but a small portion of the glass on the facade would look similar to the original building. I think what has amazed me through all of this uncovering of the 1963 base is that with the exception of some first and second floor window infill, and the original entrance pavilion, 98% of the building was intact. The only thing that needed to be done to restore original appearance was to reconstruct that original entrance pavilion.

[Sam Stone]

You know what else could have been done: The center sections could have been used as communal balconies. Just leave the windows out and make each one accessible to the corridors in each of the wings and you've got a great amenity for the residents, plus lets a lot of light through.

[John T Roberts]

Sam, I think there were many options that could have been explored. I even think some of them would have been close enough to preserving the structure that the THC might have allowed the federal funds to be used on the project.

[vjackson]

I was in FW for the festival yesterday and drove by MP. I like the hole in the building. I never found the building to be very attractive or interesting, which is why I like the hole. To me, it adds character to a building that had very little. Now, what I don't like about the hole is the idea of cars driving through it. I think it would have worked better as a pedestrian area with lots of trees and maybe some fountains. It would had made for some great patio dining at restuarants. I think cars driving through there is such a waste of that space.

[Shocker]

Night Rendering with lighting:


Shocker, what don't you like about the new windows?

I just personally like the look of fewer, larger single pieces of glass as opposed to more numerous smaller pieces. Something more like this: http://www.lofts24.com/

[John T Roberts]

Thanks for the reply, Shocker. The reason that I asked is that the replacement windows are very close to the original windows in appearance. They have the same number of divisions horizontally and vertically in each opening that were in the original ones.

[JBB]

I think the developer could have driven cars through a 1 story arched opening that matched the original on each side of a rebuilt main entry pavilion.

[whinyvoice]But, but then I might not be able to to spot the Coke machines at the front door of Target when I turn off of 7th St.[/wv]

[safly]

Donnie, you sum it up perfectly.  That is exactly how I feel.

Safly, not to let the mayor off the hook, but the subsidy was in the works before he got elected.

What mayor are YOU referring to?

[safly]

Shcoker: your lofts 24 assesment may seem a bit Industrial meets Asian inspired for 7th street. Do like the site though.

[mosteijn]

A very recent levee shot:

[DrkLts]

looks awesome so far!

[John T Roberts]

Last week, Missionesque framing started appearing over the concrete panels of the Super Target. This detailing matches the parapet of the Montgomery Ward warehouse.

[SouthSideAllan2000]

I'm glad they're matching the new stores to the building. That is one thing that bothered me about the shopping center over on I-30 and Hulen. It didn't at all match the Lena Pope Home which is very visable.

I don't think I like the truss like that. It makes me have second thoughts about the 'hole'.

[John T Roberts]

I have more pictures taken on a cloudy Memorial Day, but I also thought I would post some of the work going on at the Super Target. It is starting to resemble the Montomery Ward building. This is a shot of the corner of the store along Carroll Street. I have also gone back and looked at the renderings of the building and the red bullseye Target logo is planned to go in the upper portion of the Missionesque corner elements.

Edited by John T Roberts, 05 June 2005 - 09:24 AM.

[Thurman52]

Why have they taken the construction fences down? It's not anywhere near complete. I noticed they moved the construction trailers too.

[John T Roberts]

I don't know why they have taken the fencing down. Construction trailers are moved from time to time on large projects. They are first placed where they are out of the way for the demolition and early phases of construction, then when another area is out of the way, they are moved to the different area so construction can take place in their old location.