206 replies to this topic

[elpingüino]

This thread has starting discussing two separate locations at once. If anyone is confused (as I was), here's a clarification. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

If and when the commuter rail line from downtown to Cleburne comes, you think they're going to get rid of that entire storage facility for the Park & Ride/Station? Everytime I drive by the QT site, that's what comes to mind. 

This is the existing QT on Granbury Road just south of I-20, opened summer 2015 or so.

 

 

Work is proceeding slowly; looks like most of what they're doing at this point is at/below grade. I was surprised that the home on the southwest corner of Southgate is now fenced off and appears that it will be demolished. 

This is the QT under construction on McCart, also just south of I-20.

[Doohickie]

You are correct, sir.

[Jeriat]

This thread has starting discussing two separate locations at once. If anyone is confused (as I was), here's a clarification. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

If and when the commuter rail line from downtown to Cleburne comes, you think they're going to get rid of that entire storage facility for the Park & Ride/Station? Everytime I drive by the QT site, that's what comes to mind. 

This is the existing QT on Granbury Road just south of I-20, opened summer 2015 or so.

 

No, that's the future Sycamore School extension of TEXRail. 

I'm talking about this line. Cleburne Line 
You can see the McCart stop that would be right across the highway from where this QT is going up. 
 

[elpingüino]

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up. The earlier reference to Belden Avenue (which terminates at the Granbury Road QT) threw me off.

[JBB]

Okay, I was way off as usual. I would assume that line is so far in the future from a funding standpoint that QT is willing to assume that they would have made a healthy return on that property if it has to go away.

[Doohickie]

Okay, I was way off as usual.

 

Me too!

[Thurman52]

Ridglea hills neighborhood Facebook posting that QT is buying a Ridglea Presbyterian Church on Camp Bowie. Church elders votes soon. NDA in place so unknown buyer officially but chuch members say it QT

[John T Roberts]

Are you talking about THE Ridglea Presbyterian Church located on Westridge between Camp Bowie and Sunset?  That is a beautiful church, and it should not be lost.

[Doohickie]

They've been trying to sell that building for a long time. The land is worth a lot and they can rebuild somewhere else for what they will get for it.

[John T Roberts]

It is still a shame.  The building is really nice and the sanctuary was designed by Preston Geren. 

[mmmdan]

If true, I can't even begin to tell you how excited I will be to see a gas station there instead of a nice neighborhood sized church.  There just aren't enough gas stations on Camp Bowie between Bryant Irvin and 183.  Who knows how many times I've almost run out of gas on that stretch of road.

[John T Roberts]

I have just received notification that the church has voted to sell their property.

[Doohickie]

I was surprised that the home on the southwest corner of Southgate & McCart is now fenced off and appears that it will be demolished.  If you're familiar with the area, that's the house where the border collie in chain-linked fenced backyard was always chasing and barking at cars. 

 

I wonder if they're realigning Southgate to move its intersection with McCart a little further south (and further away from I-20).  I suspect QT has done a thorough traffic study and is doing the best they can to make sure their new location will have a minimal impact on traffic.

 

When I drove by this morning it appeared they were ready to start the demolition.

[Doohickie]

Work is beginning in earnest at the McCart/I20 site.  When I was driving to work this morning there were about 4-5 articulated dump trucks entering the site (and hanging out into SB McCart, obstructing traffic).  So it looks like they're beginning the grading/site prep in a big way after several months of low-level activity.

 

At this point, the block of Lubbock between Southgate Drive and I20 Service Road is gone, and the block of Southgate Drive between Lubbock and McCart is closed off by construction fencing.  It's not clear what the final street configuration will be.

[Doohickie]

At this point, the block of Lubbock between Southgate Drive and I20 Service Road is gone, and the block of Southgate Drive between Lubbock and McCart is closed off by construction fencing.  It's not clear what the final street configuration will be.

 

It appears that both of those streets will remain closed in an effort to keep QT traffic out of the residential neighborhood.  It will actually be quite cumbersome for any QT traffic to get into the neighborhood if they only have entrances on I20 and McCart.

 

From Fort Worth Business Press,

The Fort Worth City Council voted May 3 to vacate a portion of Lubbock Avenue and close a portion of Southgate Drive to accommodate the project. Lubbock Avenue will be vacated to replat the property for the gas station and convenience store. Southgate Drive will be closed to keep drivers from cutting through the South Hills South neighborhood to get to McCart Avenue, which was one of the concerns neighbors expressed when speaking in opposition to the project.

 

So it looks like the street closures came in response to concerns from neighbors.  I think it will actually reduce traffic in the residential neighborhood.

[John T Roberts]

Doohickie, I think your statements are correct.  I did find the street closure information on the city's website.  I also found a site plan for the station.  It is located on a PDF below:

 

https://www.google.c...tEJPzAw&cad=rja

[Doohickie]

Ah, thanks!  I knew I'd seen something like that before.  If I remember right, the version I saw showed Lubbock continuing through to the I20 access road and aligned with Lubbock on the south side of Southgate.  If that's what it used to be, they apparently changed it in response to neighbor comments.

 

[Doohickie]

Ah, thanks!  I knew I'd seen something like that before.  If I remember right, the version I saw showed Lubbock continuing through to the I20 access road and aligned with Lubbock on the south side of Southgate.  If that's what it used to be, they apparently changed it in response to neighbor comments.

 

Nope.  The plan for Lubbock was always to end at Southgate.  But.... they did change from the original plan for Southgate.  They were going to leave it intact, but now it will end at Lubbock.  Here's the original plan, found here (and click on the link ZC-15-085).  The closing of Southgate east of Lubbock was in response to traffic concerns.  That also explains why 5401 McCart was bought out and fenced off after the other properties.

 

[mschrief]

Quik Trip going in south of 820 at Marine Creek.  Verified with the company, May 2017 opening.

[Thurman52]

Sorry for double post but QT pulled out of deal to buy the church. This according to email from RHNA this evening.

[Electricron]

Who is RHNA? 

[JBB]

Ridglea Hills Neighborhood Association

[Doohickie]

The QT at McCart and I-20 opened this weekend.  I stopped by yesterday. 

 

I want to explore the site a bit.  Prior to construction, I would often cross I-20 at McCart on my bicycle, and turn down Southgate.  It appears to be separated by a castle wall (really...that's what it looks like), with a wooden fence at the south end of the site blocking the route around the fence.  Driving by it looks like there's a gate in the fence; I can't tell if there's a lock on it or not.  (Even if there isn't, it's kind of a pain to ride a bike over the grass, unlatch a gate, then ride on more grass to get through.)

[Jeriat]

The QT at McCart and I-20 opened this weekend.  I stopped by yesterday. 

 

I want to explore the site a bit.  Prior to construction, I would often cross I-20 at McCart on my bicycle, and turn down Southgate.  It appears to be separated by a castle wall (really...that's what it looks like), with a wooden fence at the south end of the site blocking the route around the fence.  Driving by it looks like there's a gate in the fence; I can't tell if there's a lock on it or not.  (Even if there isn't, it's kind of a pain to ride a bike over the grass, unlatch a gate, then ride on more grass to get through.)

 

It'll be a good spot coming in from around Hulen. Won't have to stop by the Grandbury location now.

[Thurman52]

QT coming to Henderson and Lancaster? Looks like its up before downtown design district this week

http://fortworthtexa...479de72ffae.pdf

[Austin55]

Wouldn't be surprised if this gets denied.

[A_Random_Username]

I dont think it will be approved. theres already a station on that same intersection. 

[Jeriat]

QT coming to Henderson and Lancaster? Looks like its up before downtown design district this week

http://fortworthtexa...479de72ffae.pdf

 

...holy crap, I actually suggested this. 

[Thurman52]

Assumed it was taking over the existing location

[Austin55]

Assumed it was taking over the existing location

Northeast Corner. Presumably the Champion Springs building would be demolished.

[John T Roberts]

How does the forum feel about having a QT at this location? 

[Doohickie]

How does the forum feel about having a QT at this location?

Meh. It's a gas station off the freeway.  Not sure what objection there might be.

[A_Random_Username]

It would be indifferent to me if it was there or not. If im in that area yeah sure otherwise I won't make an effort to get there. There's easily 2 others on my main routes.

[txbornviking]

How does the forum feel about having a QT at this location? 

 

Honestly,  I'd really rather not see this. This area already is afflicted by several obstacles to an improved urban form development. This sort of addition would only make that worse. 

If they really do desire to develop a gas station in the area, I'd prefer to see them get creative on the current "lost lot" at Henderson and Presidio bisected by the highway on-ramps.

[Fort Worthology]

How does the forum feel about having a QT at this location? 

 

If it was designed like gas stations in central cities in other parts of the world - with the store building up on the corner, with pedestrian-oriented entrances, and the gas pumps out back - it's not the worst.

 

I'm certain that's not what's going to get built, though.

[JBB]

Given the number of variance requested on the agenda, I would say there's very little chance of this being an urban design.  And I can't imagine what this would do to the already crazy rush hour traffic in this area.  

 

Anyone noticed how much the parking lot for the Hemphill-Rosedale QT has been expanded in recent months?

[Doohickie]

 

How does the forum feel about having a QT at this location? 

 

If it was designed like gas stations in central cities in other parts of the world - with the store building up on the corner, with pedestrian-oriented entrances, and the gas pumps out back - it's not the worst.

 

I'm certain that's not what's going to get built, though.

 

I would counter that whether it's arranged your way or with the pumps in front, would make no difference in pedestrian patterns.  If someone is walking by and wants a drink or whatever, they will walk across the lot.  And I can see why QT would want it with the pumps in front:  if you put the building up on the corner and there is customer traffic entering from the street and from the pump area in the back, there are two distinct traffic flows to monitor for store theft.  If it sits back on the corner, pedestrian traffic and pump traffic comes in through the same door.

[John T Roberts]

Personally, I would rather not see this built.  I have not been a fan of QuikTrip since they destroyed the residential area on the southwest corner of McCart and I-20.  Since that location has opened, I have avoided being one of their customers.  I'm not saying that I have absolutely boycotted them, but I have tried not to patronize any of their locations since.

[Fort Worthology]

 

I would counter that whether it's arranged your way or with the pumps in front, would make no difference in pedestrian patterns.  If someone is walking by and wants a drink or whatever, they will walk across the lot.  And I can see why QT would want it with the pumps in front:  if you put the building up on the corner and there is customer traffic entering from the street and from the pump area in the back, there are two distinct traffic flows to monitor for store theft.  If it sits back on the corner, pedestrian traffic and pump traffic comes in through the same door.

 

 

The point is, if you're going to build in the central city, you should build something that fits in the central city. It's a slippery slope to making the argument that it makes no difference to build *anything* oriented to pedestrians, because if somebody wants something they'll cross the lot. And that's how you wind up with places where nobody walks, because everything is built to cater to cars first.

 

All I'm saying is that if a car-oriented business wants to build someplace where the pedestrian should be the foundation of all development, they should be held to a higher standard. QT already half-heartedly did this in the Near Southside - that store isn't *great,* particularly due to the elevation changes on the site and QT's huge, barren designs, but it's a start, because the Near Southside held them to their standards.

[Doohickie]

Personally, I would rather not see this built.  I have not been a fan of QuikTrip since they destroyed the residential area on the southwest corner of McCart and I-20.  Since that location has opened, I have avoided being one of their customers.  I'm not saying that I have absolutely boycotted them, but I have tried not to patronize any of their locations since.

 

Interesting.  I think the viewpoint of the people in that neighborhood is mostly positive.  Previously, Southgate Drive emptied into McCart and was used as a shortcut for people between I-20 and McCart (i.e., northbound traffic could, if the light was turning as they approached, turn into the neighborhood, then turn right onto I-20 service road and cut across to the U-turn lane to avoid traffic.... or turn into the neighborhood when coming off EB I-20 to avoid traffic backup at McCart.)  There's much less of that kind of traffic cutting through the corner of the residential area since QT was built since Southgate no longer connects to McCart.  It's my understanding that QT bought the house on the south side of Southgate and changed their plans to close that last block of the street to prevent that "cut-through" traffic.

 

I will admit that at times I used those cut-throughs when Southgate was still open, and recognize I'm not driving through that residential area anymore; I would think the remaining residents would prefer what's there now to what preceded the QT.

 

My only beef is that as a cyclist, I would often travel on south on Wellview, merge into McCart, then turn off McCart onto Southgate.  With a slight downhill through the intersection, it was a very bikeable route.  Now the wall behind the QT and the fence just south of it block access, even pedestrian & bicycle access, from McCart into the residential area.

[John T Roberts]

I will agree that closing of Southgate was a good thing.  I will also agree not having it open to pedestrians and bicycles is kind of bad, but that may be also a result of concessions made by QT.  I also still think they ruined the neighborhood by allowing a gas station at the corner.  I will also admit that it probably should have been zoned for commercial from the very beginning, rather than allowing residential at that location. 

[Doohickie]

Who knew?

 

Look at several of the other intersections in that part of I-20:

Hulen:  Designed as a major shopping area from the beginning

South Drive:  Residential crossing

Granbury:  Major retail area

Trail Lake:  Retail/residential mix

Westcreek:  Mostly residential crossing with minor service stations

McCart:  East side of intersection = retail plaza to the north, TXDoT to the south; west side of intersection = residential area

James Ave/Crowley Road:  Major retail area at the split of two major roads

Hemphill:  Major distribution center just west of I-35W/I-20 intersection.

 

In typing it out, it seems that McCart could have reasonably been zoned as commercial on both sides of the street right from the get-go.... but even at that, it was a lazy little residential area on the west side of the intersection for over 50 years.  And you can't automatically assume that just because a road crosses an interstate, it will become a busy commercial intersection.  Look at South Drive which is sandwiched between two major retail areas- it has remained a residential area all this time with little indication things will develop there at any point in the foreseeable future.

 

Yet organic demand for more commercial use occurred.  I don't see that as a failure in planning (especially for what people knew about interstate-driven development in 1960*); it's just growth-driven evolution.

 

*In the early-ish days of interstate highways, weird things happened.  In my hometown, eight homes remained for several years inside the loop of a cloverleaf interchange after I-90 was built!

[John T Roberts]

I have taken a look at the drawings for the QuikTrip.  The building is placed directly at the intersection of Henderson and Lancaster with a clipped corner entry.  There is another entry on the north side, and two more are on the east side.  These entries are at the north and south ends of the east elevation.  The gas pumps are on the north end of the site with one drive approach on 13th Street, and there are three approaches along Florence Street.  The project takes up the entire city block, which means all structures on that block will be demolished.  With the pumps being roughly at grade along the high side of the site, this puts the parking lot above the sidewalk level on Henderson.  The entry at the corner of Henderson & Lancaster will be above the grade of the streets, and there will be steps up to that entry.  There will also be steps up from Lancaster to the east side.  The building will appear to be two stories, even though it is really only one.  The interior will be a double height space, with windows on the ground level and up above.  The interior will have exposed structure with a floating suspended ceiling.  I realize they are asking for a lot of variances, but my gut feeling would be to approve them, considering the overall appearance of the station.

[JBB]

That sounds better than I was expecting.

[Doohickie]

An aside:

 

*In the early-ish days of interstate highways, weird things happened.  In my hometown, eight homes remained for several years inside the loop of a cloverleaf interchange after I-90 was built!

 

I found of a picture of it:  In the lower left of the picture you can see a cloverleaf.  In the upper right lobe of the interchange you can see the homes that were left intact.  This picture is from 1951; the homes were still there in 1963 per HistoricAerials but were razed before 1966.

[John T Roberts]

Doohickie, that doesn't look like a pleasant situation.

[Doohickie]

Doohickie, that doesn't look like a pleasant situation.

 

No I'm sure it wasn't.  The homes predated the interchange and I suspect the homeowners fought eminent domain so they built the Thruway around them.  My point is that in the mid-20th century, planners were still trying to figure out the interface between residential areas and interstate highways, so it probably is unfair to harshly judge the residential development at I-20 and McCart in 1960.

[John T Roberts]

Yesterday, the Downtown Design Review Board voted to continue the QuikTrip case. 

[Electricron]

No I'm sure it wasn't.  The homes predated the interchange and I suspect the homeowners fought eminent domain so they built the Thruway around them.  My point is that in the mid-20th century, planners were still trying to figure out the interface between residential areas and interstate highways, so it probably is unfair to harshly judge the residential development at I-20 and McCart in 1960.

 

You have to remember back in 1960 the Southwest Freeway wasn't an Interstate Highway called I-20 either. It was just a four lane divided highway with controlled access (no at grade intersections).  Central Expressway in Dallas (mostly South) was built similar. They were more worried about increasing the speed of traffic than they were about increasing the amount of traffic. It didn't take long for the traffic planners to realize their mistake, faster speeds meant more and more traffic. 

 

The noise from heavy traffic is what makes living next to freeways unpleasant. But people do get use to the heavy noise. Living next to an active railroad is also a noisy environment, when visitors remark how we hardly notice a train going by it both amazes and surprises us because we have grown used to it. I suggest the same is true with highway noise. 

As a kid my church was located next to a railroad crossing and almost every Sunday a train came by in the middle of the pastors sermon. Every time the preacher stopped. sipped from his water glass (I hope it was water) and waited for the train to pass before continuing his sermon. Sometimes he'll comment the train was being ran by people who celebrated the sabbath on Saturday, sometimes he didn't. But he never tried to speak louder than the train. 

[Doohickie]

Interesting.  I wasn't in Texas then; it's always been I-20 to me.

 

This whole conversation has a new relevance to me.  I can almost see the I-20 & McCart QT sign from my driveway now.  When I last posted in this thread two and a half months ago, I had no idea I'd be moving!