58 replies to this topic

[Willy1]

I have been in the food court and underground tunnels beneath Downtown Dallas.... It is a very cool feature to their downtown and a very good perk for those who work in downtown Dallas. For example on rainy or cold days, or even when it's just blazing hot outside, the people in downtown Dallas can simply go underground and have lunch, do some banking, visit a convenience store, or get a Starbucks... A friend of mine owns two restaraunts in the Dallas Underground. It's a really cool thing. I've heard that there are tunnel connecting the buildings in downtown Fort Worth, but have never seen any proof. Does anyone know if they're there, if they could be built, and whether or not it would be worth it? I think it would be a great addition to DTFW and could even be used as something to attract new businesses to FW.

Thoughts?

[grow_smart]

I've heard that there are tunnel connecting the buildings in downtown Fort Worth, but have never seen any proof. Does anyone know if they're there, if they could be built, and whether or not it would be worth it? I think it would be a great addition to DTFW and could even be used as something to attract new businesses to FW.

 

There are tunnels connecting Burnett Plaza to 500 W. 7th and the Bank of America parking garage. They are open to the public during the week - feel free to take a look.

I'm not a big fan of the concept - takes away from activity on the street. Yeah, it's hot, but what other negative is there besides that?

[Sam Stone]

NO, NO, NO. I cannot be more emphatic about what a bad idea tunnels are. We're not friggin rats. Tunnels are precisely the reason that Dallas has been so slow in revitalizing its downtown. The street is the building block of the city. By street I do not mean road surface and by city I do not mean an area on a map. Tunnels remove people from the street. They are yesterday's futuristic garbage and a product of mid century modernist planners who hated the city and wanted to obliterate the street. Want to learn about all the components that make the fragile ecosystem that is the street? Check out "The Death and Life of Great American Cities" by Jane Jacobs.

[safly]

They are yesterday's futuristic garbage and a product of mid century modernist planners who hated the city and wanted to obliterate the street. Want to learn about all the components that make the fragile ecosystem that is the street?

They are hardly garbage. And when the mercury hits 100 on a SS blacktop, then come cryin. Or if a sign of sleet shuts down this Texas town, then come cryin. Or if you live in DTFW and would like some peace and quite from the street bars, then come cryin. Tired of the blazin sun or softball size hail damaging your ride, then come cryin.

You read waay into peoples works, way tooo much. Works fine in Crystal City and near the Pentagon Mall.

GO SPURS GO!

[courtnie]

I could see how it could work..but I dont think DTFW is ready for it just yet. Its a cool idea...we always thought it was cool to go in the tunnel to the tandy center....so anythings possible..

[Sam Stone]

I'm not reading too much into their work, these ideas were not subtext, they were stated explicitly by people like Le Corbusier, Mumford, Howard, etc. They though that cities, streets, density, mixed uses, etc. were bad. They saw chaos but didn't see the order or patterns. They wanted every city to be sterile like Brasilia.

Harsh weather here is brief and not worth rearranging our city for and destroying the street. One day when our downtown is larger and has more definable neighborhoods you'll be able to live in an area with fewer bars.

[safly]

stachi bottis... sticky butkis...

You leave the Shicago Bearsah out of this, buddy!

(wiping the beer froth from my mouth)

all that stuff can be sterilized with flourscent lighting and other products.

(putting kraut on my polish saahsssij/ brats)

[courtnie]

OR we can have the underground tunnels and put glass as the roof so its like your outside...someone will just have to invent a glass that we can drive on..now wouldnt that be cool............. I think I should have been drinking before I wrote that....haha

[safly]

Could work, if you drove on metal grates. I "dig" a DTFW tunnel/underground scene. But instead of looking at what is beneath us, why not concentrate on more "skywalk" type of above ground developments. All across DTFW, I think it can be feasible. Love how the CB building or Radisson displays the beautiful walk way over Commerce St. Hopefully the concept will become more and more popular. LV's Caesar's Palace has a neat one too, with a soft cushiony escalator/conveyor belt ride.

[RD Milhollin]

I think Fort Worth needs underground tunnels, but to put freight trains in, not necessarily shopping. I would like to see all the tracks on the eastern side of downtown buried in tunnels so streets could cross safely at grade, developing businesses and residential areas would be quieter, and the incredible train traffic backups at the "tower 41" (or whatever) interchange could be done away with. This development would open up a lot of land to the east of the CBD to new and quality development.

Pup

[courtnie]

Could work, if you drove on metal grates. I "dig"  a DTFW tunnel/underground  scene. But instead of looking at what is beneath us, why not concentrate on more "skywalk" type of above ground developments. All across DTFW, I think it can be feasible. Love how the CB building or Radisson displays the beautiful walk way over Commerce St. Hopefully the concept will become more and more popular. LV's Caesar's Palace has a neat one too, with a soft cushiony escalator/conveyor belt ride.

 

OHHHHH I agree......we need a skywalk....with moving sidewalks.....cool idea Safly............ when we want to go somewhere we just get on the moving sidwalk...no more cars, or walking bah...who needs it....we will just ride..

[hipolyte]

I would prefer to arrive directly at my destination ... in my personal flying car.

[Willy1]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this... But at one time, wasn't FW planning on connecting most of the buildings via skywalks? There are a few in downtown... and I think there were more years ago... The City Center Towers have one... There is one someone in Central downtown. The old Bank One had one to the parking garage pre-twister... Weren't there more on the Southern end of DT before a lot of the Class B offices turned into residential? I think skywalks were the "modern" thought for downtown in the 60's or 70's... am I right?

As for the personal flying car... you laugh now, but I actually saw one at the car show at the State Fair a couple years ago. If memory serves me correctly, you could fly a couple thousand miles in the flying car per one tank of "fuel". I wish I remembered who made the prototype, but it was really cool... and it wasn't just a mock-up, it was a realy flying car... It had been test "driven" and everything... It was really cool. Very Jetson's like. And, it was Candy Apple Red. It made me want one and to put my Texas Tech Ex sticker on the back windshield. ;D

[courtnie]

I sure could use a flying car......i think we should have some but who would regulate it and how would cops give you a ticket..hehheeheh

[Stadtplan]

Tunnels are a good idea in Minnesota when there’s two feet of snow and the wind chill is -30, but I think adding tunnels in Fort Worth is a fantasy at this point with our existing buildings but it is a possibility for future construction especially the Omni and the Convention Center. To build a tunnel, you need to have a reason to go from one building to the next and retailers willing to risk sustainability without exposure on street level. Most buildings downtown have some form of security restricting you from entering or going beyond the lobby/public areas. Tunnels would require a willingness to modify security, make lower levels available for lease, add escalators, elevators and stairs not to mention convincing owners to redesign those lower levels to allow connections and public walkways to the tunnels. In my opinion, most retailers other than sandwich shops would find a tunnel business difficult to profit from.

Downtown St. Paul “the city that always sleeps” experienced a mass exodus of retailers in the late 90’s despite very public and accessible skyway system. For example the former Minnesota World Trade Center Mall (now Wells Fargo Place) and Galtier Plaza were two beautiful urban shopping malls that shifted dramatically to mix-use offices, bank and lunch-only restaurants. Mall retailers found it difficult to survive only on the lunch crowd for business. Minneapolis on the other hand appears to be expanding its day and night skyway retailing with connections including the Block E (entertainment), the renovated City Center Mall, the new (Cesar Pelli) Central Library and the downtown Target (it even has an escalator for your shopping cart). It amazes me to think that you can get in your car in the garage at home, drive to downtown Mpls and park in a ramp, visit all of places I mentioned, drive back home to your garage and never step foot outside.

Back to tunnels…The University of Minnesota has what is called “The Gopher Way” and is a series of interconnected tunnels and skyways connecting many of the Twin Cities Campus buildings. Even though it is a round about way of getting from point A to point B, parking can be a nightmare and when it is cold and snowing, the tunnels are extremely useful.

[RD Milhollin]

The walkways in Minneapolis are very nice. I was there recently and was impressed by the vitality in their downtown, and by the new light rail (which I covered elsewhere). I was there in the summer, so I have no real idea what it is like in the winter. The locals assured me it is cold, very %8#2 cold!. And lots of snow. The Washington Street bridge was very cool. After seeing all the trouble they went to building that, I have to believe about the snow part.

[Stadtplan]

The light rail was a really good idea considering it serves the Mall of America which is a major major tourist destination, Twin Cities International Airport and Downtown Minneapolis. Expanding to the University of Minnesota and downtown St. Paul may not be far off. Construction along the Mississippi on the downtown side is also very impressive: Mill City Museum, condos, and the new Guthrie Theater.

[Now in Denton]

I have been in the food court and underground tunnels beneath Downtown Dallas.... It is a very cool feature to their downtown and a very good perk for those who work in downtown Dallas. For example on rainy or cold days, or even when it's just blazing hot outside, the people in downtown Dallas can simply go underground and have lunch, do some banking, visit a convenience store, or get a Starbucks... A friend of mine owns two restaraunts in the Dallas Underground. It's a really cool thing. I've heard that there are tunnel connecting the buildings in downtown Fort Worth, but have never seen any proof. Does anyone know if they're there, if they could be built, and whether or not it would be worth it? I think it would be a great addition to DTFW and could even be used as something to attract new businesses to FW.

Thoughts?

 

The old Tandy Center Mall was mostly underground the food court and the tunnel connecting the mall and the Libarary with more shops thier too.

[TexasPacific52]

The only two I know of are the Burnett Plaza and the old Tandy Center. Both have already been mentioned. If you aren't local then you probably wouldnt even know they were there. The Burnett Plaza is really just a walkway as far as I know. Nothing special there. The Tandy Center was always neat because of the subway. The mall shopping area just never really caught on and it died along with the subway. I dont really think FTW is ready for such a concept. Heck, the Condo craze is just now really catching on downtown. If more skycrapers are ever built and the available parking lots start disappearing then the idea might come up but I really dont see it happening anytime soon.

Referance the Dallas underground mall, I have used it a couple of times when it was raining or I just wanted to get out of the busy congestion. I always thought it was a nice change. Seemed like it was another case of local use since out of towners would never know it was there.
John Briggs

[Bellisarius]

There are tunnels connecting Burnett Plaza to 500 W. 7th and the Bank of America parking garage.  They are open to the public during the week - feel free to take a look.

I'm not a big fan of the concept - takes away from activity on the street.  Yeah, it's hot, but what other negative is there besides that?

 

Shade is a solution to the heat problem. Perhaps money suggested for digging and furnishing tunnels would be more wisely spent above-ground on additional trees by the sidewalks, large awnings over sidewalks, and the occasional bench with arbor shading.

Stay cool,
Bellisarius

[safly]

I hardly consider it a solution, unless we go about it like ol Scottsdale, AZ. SPRAY MISTERS! Yeah, all over the map with spray misters, now that's a summertime solution. You see with just adding more mid-level trees and some shading you still get the unbearable summer heat, then you have to tend for those dying trees, water, water, water, money, money, money. Plus them lovely DTFW birds just LOVE them trees. But we don't love them BIRDS.

Underground or above ground transport tunnels is where it's at.

[DrkLts]

why we need tunnels? we mole people now? or did the ozone layer finally crumble and tunnels the only hope of survival? lol

[redzeep]

I am all for increasing pedestrian traffic but in tunnels.

[FWillustrator]

Sorry to quote so far back...just found this thread, and I think Sam makes an excellent point about this.

They are yesterday's futuristic garbage and a product of mid century modernist planners who hated the city and wanted to obliterate the street...

...and when the mercury hits 100 on a SS blacktop, then come cryin...

Sam's exactly right on this...and this is Texas afterall. I think we have a bad habit here of running from one fridge to the next here; from your house to the car - to the office - back to the SUV - on to the mall and back home again where you can crank it up to 68 degrees. How often do we brave the heat to experience our surroundings? "If you can't stand the heat..."

I'm not reading too much into their work, these ideas were not subtext, they were stated explicitly by people like Le Corbusier, Mumford, Howard, etc. They though that cities, streets, density, mixed uses, etc. were bad. They saw chaos but didn't see the order or patterns. They wanted every city to be sterile like Brasilia.

Sam's exactly right on this again. The modernist ideal would be to flatten everything existing and impose a "pristine" order on our cities. The problem is cities are like living organisms - they grow, get sick, get healthier, change character as they age, and no amount of master planning can reasonably predict the direction a city will take. And most importantly, PEOPLE are what makes the city come alive, and keeping them on the streets is show of vitality.

I know this is a far reach from our little place, where the west begins, but the summer heat in New Delhi is consistently around 115F (in the shade), and the streets are bustling at mid afternoon with an undescribable flow of pulsing life. True India is not (yet) as modernized and westernized as us, but the moment they are that life will cease.

I say we keep the flow of life topside (and outside).

[Fort Worthology]

In the basement of the Electric Building, there's a locked-up door on the Lamar street side of the building with a sign reading "TUNNEL CLOSED" on it. It would seem that the Burnett Plaza - 500 W. 7th Street tunnel used to connect on to the Electric Building.

[John T Roberts]

The Electric Building used to be owned by the First National Bank of Fort Worth, so that is why they constructed a connecting tunnel between the two buildings.

[normanfd]

Downtown street life took a hit everywhere under the design concepts of the '60s and '70s. Tunnels and skywalks, while not being the reason for the disappearance of street life, didn't help either.

Shade is a solution to the heat problem. Perhaps money suggested for digging and furnishing tunnels would be more wisely spent above-ground on additional trees by the sidewalks, large awnings over sidewalks, and the occasional bench with arbor shading.

I agree fully.

The city has done a good job of revitalizing street life Downtown. However, there is still much work to be done to bring life back to southern and eastern areas of Downtown. Once street life becomes more established and matures throughout Downtown, tunnels for anything other than freight or cargo moving would detract from everything successful that has happened to breathe life into Downtown's street scene.

I'm not saying tunnels and skywalks should be ruled out, I'm just saying that the time is not right.

[John T Roberts]

I have one note to make here about tunnels and skywalks. When the redesign is complete on City Place (formerly the Tandy Center), almost all of the bridges over the streets will be removed. The entire street grid through the project will be restored in addition. I think designers are moving away from both tunnels and skybridges here in Fort Worth. Underground access will still remain through most of the project, but that will handle parking and moving freight through the complex. From the plans that I have seen it appears that the only portion that will remain from the old Leonard's days will be the block long tunnel under Throckmorton between 1st and 2nd that connected the original store with the 1960's annex.

[hooked]

Shade is a solution to the heat problem. Perhaps money suggested for digging and furnishing tunnels would be more wisely spent above-ground on additional trees by the sidewalks, large awnings over sidewalks, and the occasional bench with arbor shading.

I agree 100% with the above. When walking downtown to/from work and at lunch, I almost always take advantage of the shaded sidewalks along Houston street (in front of Starbucks, Four-Day Weekend, and the movie theater. There are some nice trees along Main in front of Razoo's and the Kincaid Gallery, as well. It seems to me that it would be much less expensive to add a large awning along the front of a structure than to dig tunnels.

The awnings also provide a great deal of protection from the rain. I've made my five-block walk in the rain and hardly gotten wet by choosing the covered path most of the way. Shops like Barnes & Noble, with entrances at each end of the block - and the Worthington's covered valet area - are also great ways for those of us on foot to keep dry.

[FoUTASportscaster]

To add to the topic, Dallas downtown scene's demise can almost singlehandedly point to one thing, the tunnel, and skywalk to a lesser extent. The vitality of an urban environment depends directly on the street life. When the tunnels opened, retailers moved down below, that excelerated DTD's move to a soulless buisness center. Buildings like Tiche's went out of buisness, because the shoppers were down below. An underground plaza below 1700 Pacific is packed at lunch, whereas the nearby street life is nearly dead. That is a big reason why street level retail lags. One day during lunch hour, I was going from Union Station to my loft on the otherside of Main St. When I crossed the area where the tunnels are, it was like the people disappeared.
They are a bad idea, and a relic of bad civic planning of the 50's through 70's.

[John T Roberts]

I have been inside the plaza below 1700 Pacific and noticed the lunch crowds and then gone out to the street and noticed how little activity there was in comparison. I appreciate the relative absence of tunnels in downtown Fort Worth. We still have a few skybridges I would like to get rid of, but at least City Place (Tandy Center) is going to be working on that.

[Jeriat]

Tunnels would KILL downtown if they're made for what's supposed to be on street level.

The only kind of tunnels we should ever have are for subways, and I doubt we ever see that again....

[RD Milhollin]

Tunnels would KILL downtown if they're made for what's supposed to be on street level.

The only kind of tunnels we should ever have are for subways, and I doubt we ever see that again....

Subways would be good, but I could see tunnels for automobiles; to keep them off the streets and out of the way of pedestrians, streetcars, and bicycles.

There could be tunnels dug underneath streets that are being resurfaced and utilities replaced to take cars from freeway exits into downtown parking garages, making getting around safer and easier for drivers and pedestrians. I think an excellent place for an auto tunnel would be under the Convention Center main hall, beginning in the 200 block of 12th St. and coming up at Jones Street. If the Convention Center happened to be undergoing one of the periodic reconstructions the loading docks for the facility could be relocated underground and facing onto this underground street. This would relieve the need for the East Hall docks and allow Commerce (er... Rusk St.) to be straightened back out. The former subway tunnel could be improved and used to feed traffic from North Main on Cat Island (via abridge over the river and trails) to the new parking at City Center (formerly Tandy, Leonards, etc.) without the need to navigate and clog the streets in that part of downtown. I am sure there are places where car tunnels would be useful, and if dug out in existing street rights of way would not be that difficult or expensive to realize.

[renamerusk]

....and allow Commerce (er... Rusk St.) to be straightened back out...

Ah ha!...Attribution for a true and noble Texan, Thomas Jefferson Rusk.

Keep Fort Worth folksy

[mmiller2002]

I've been in my share in Japan since about 1991. They are usually attached to subway stations, but can run for blocks in all directions. Underground malls. They have been handy for dodging the weather (hot, humid, rain, cold). They also speed up the walk since you don't have to stop for intersections. Homeless like them also...

DTFW doesn't seem big enough to merit this type of HUGE expense.




PS, in these big ones, it's easy to get turned around and lost.

[Austin55]

Bumping this topic because it's interesting. 

Some that I haven't seen mentioned are tunnels below the jail complex. I'm pretty sure the Curry Building and the main Jail tower are connected, as are Criminal Courts Building across Belknap. Don't ask me how I know that 

[John T Roberts]

Austin, the jail connections are there.  When I worked on the Tarrant County Corrections Center back in 1988, I did the construction drawings to build the tunnels between the Thomas R. Windham Building/Criminal Courts and the Tim Curry Building and into the Corrections Center.  The problem with the tunnel under Belknap and Taylor Streets is that it had to be below grade and above the Tandy Subway Tunnel.  There was not much room to actually build that tunnel. 

[Stadtplan]

Here's a guy poking around Heritage Park, appeared to be some locked doors and other stuff.  Interesting aside, when he's looking at the personalized bricks, Perry Bass put his name one one.

 

https://www.youtube....f6Hbe5k78?t=489

[johnfwd]

Is the Tandy tunnel still in existence?  Also, wasn't there a short tunnel that led to the downtown library building?

[JBB]

The subway tunnel is still there.

[John T Roberts]

With the exception of closing the exit, I believe all of the old Leonard's/Tandy Tunnels are still present below the streets.

[johnfwd]

We've discussed downtown tunnels over the years. My first experience was as a child going with Mom on the subway in the DTFW tunnel to shop at Leonard Brothers.  Later I was in OKC, which had some tunnels.  Is there a revival of interest, maybe in DTFW?  I always thought tunnels with stores and kiosks was a good idea.  And they're a good place to be in the event of a tornado.

[JBB]

Tunnels kill street life.  They aren't a good idea at all.

[John T Roberts]

They may be a great place to be in a tornado, but other than that, they aren't a good idea at all.  They kill street life.  Overhead walkways and bridges also do the same thing by taking the pedestrians off of the street.

[roverone]

I totally get this idea that tunnels or bridges drain away from the street.  But when you think about it if people are in the tunnels, why do they need to be seen from the street?  The folks on the sidewalk would only be seen by the people in vehicles, and if all the people were in the tunnels / bridges they would see each other.

 

What are your thoughts about if we put all the cars in the tunnels and the people were at ground level?  Conceptually I like this idea more than people in tunnels and cars on the street, but the people in the vehicles would equally not see the pedestrians walking about if they were driving in tunnels.

 

Places like Toronto with meaningfully difficult weather probably use their tunnels way more than we would because of heat.  I think the idea of a 2nd story "sidewalk grid" of climate-controlled glass tubes with shops and restaurants all on that level doesn't seem nearly as unpleasant as tunnels to me.

[Stadtplan]

Minneapolis skyway system on the 2nd level has a ton of interconnected retail all throughout. Plus you get the opportunity to actually go inside buildings downtown if theres a grand lobby or something interesting to see.



Conversely, the Univ of Minnesota has a vast tunnel system that is functional but is void of retail or any life.