182 replies to this topic

[Austin55]

This could a big opportunity. One of the most developable sites in all of Fort Worth is up for sale, in what could be a tremendous gateway opportunity for the city. 

While this is only a portion of the 3-block long superblock, it's the biggest portion under one ownership umbrella. Being 400 ft long is no small thing either, that's 2x the length of a typical square downtown block. 

https://www.crexi.co...he sale packet,

 

 

The highest and best use of the property may include hotel, office and/or residential with retail at the ground level.​ 

[Jeriat]

If this site really does give some powerful people ideas, then dammit, I'm gonna keep posting this while I can:



(...but of course, it'll more than likely be something way more subtle.)

[Austin55]

Some other interesting notes from the sale brochure.

 

 

The Property has historically produced $185,000 to $190,000+ per year in parking revenue through a lease arrangement with Parking Systems of America. Since mid-2020 the lease has been amended to percentage only rent providing nearly $87,000 in 2020 and nearly $18,000 through June-2021.

 

Two things here.

1. The revenue has really taken a hit. I'm assuming this stems from less office workers, less transit riders, and less convention activity during the pandemic. If that June number continues through the 2nd half of the year, the property is barely making enough income to pay for the price of a single car that might park there. I'm assuming this decline might be what led to the property owner's decision to sell. If so, this is a total "never waste a good crisis" moment.

2. Even producing $190k per year seems wildly low for such a large site. 190/365 is 520, and assuming $10-$15 per car that's between 52 and 35 cars on site per day. TAD puts the total value at $4.7 million, quite a lot for an empty lot, but there is so much more value that could be extracted from this site!

The sale packet also shows some comps of nearby rental projects,

 

Basically, everything older than 2020 is over 95% occupied and rents in new builds is pushing $2/SF. Anyone that thinks apartments are sitting empty or aren't in high demand isn't paying attention. 

[John T Roberts]

I would really like to see this piece of property developed into another high-rise building.  If something major is built here, it might encourage the other owners to improve their property over letting a surface parking lot stay in place.

[Volare]

That's enough space for a parking garage, a QT, and a drive-thru Bank. The Fort Worth Trifecta!

[GenX]

Let me guess what will actually be built here. Apartments. Apartments. Or apartments. But my real deep true gut feeling is apartments. In the five story range.  If a developer was really chomping at the bit to build something tall they would of approached those various owners years ago. So this is no real new news. By the way I do remember their was a proposed 30 story office building to be built in this area about fifteen years ago. Given the very odd clearance the City gave to build Paradox church on the Worth site. Tells me this city has people in charge that discourage proper urban development.

 

Yes I will let my opinion be know as I always do, to not let the city pass this opportunity to build a proper high rise. Because I cannot sleep at night if I did not at least try to put some sense in those thick heads of theirs. But I don't hold out hope a high rise will happen. I been burned too many times. Same story different day. 

[GenX]

That's enough space for a parking garage, a QT, and a drive-thru Bank. The Fort Worth Trifecta!

 

That is what I was saying on my post ! Only mine was a longer rant. 

[Austin55]

Because of the larger-than-usual size of this parcel it would be an easy location to build a "pancake" style wood framed apartment building here. Honestly I don't think that'd be too bad, provided there would be decent interaction with the ground floor, particularly along 9th and Jones. Calhoun already has a de-facto alley feel to it.

But it'd certainly be nice to see more of that 969 Commerce energy. Sites of this scope and location are extremely rate. 

[rriojas71]

That's enough space for a parking garage, a QT, and a drive-thru Bank. The Fort Worth Trifecta!

Well those are better than open parking lots downtown.

[John T Roberts]

I look at these wood framed apartment buildings in downtown as "temporary placeholders" until the market indicates something taller and more permanent can be built at these locations.  Having these types of buildings built in downtown is better than a surface parking lot.

[gdvanc]

Huge lot. Next to a transportation hub. Very short walk to hotels and convention center and within 10 minute walk of basically all of downtown Fort Worth. The mind races to consider all the possibilities. There is enough space to server more than one purpose. Something to draw more people downtown or something to benefit from the presence of downtown's residents and visitors. And maybe something to add to the tax base.

 

What's Powerball up to?

[GenX]

WOW ! That did not take long for many to use the apartments are "better than a parking lot" card ? Talk about low bar expectations many have for downtown Fort Worth ? (If they build apartments it was  be a easy thirty years that property will be off the market. That don't sound temp to me ? ) *sigh* Oh well I'm not really shocked. Whelp it's settled then. Office Depot, AutoZone and a washeteria will be built here. Does anybody have quarters ?  lol 

[Stadtplan]

I would take a parking lot (for now) rather than another mid-rise apartment building. Im holding out for a high-rise of some kind or how about a higher-ed building if not a high-rise, something that would be worthy of that space long term.

[Austin55]

Personally, if I were an investor or developer in the highrise residential world, Id wait a few years to see how leasing is going at 969. By then the Convention Center expansion might be more solidified too, perhaps solidifying a need for more hotel rooms too.

Regardless, theres tremendous potential for this property.

[GenX]

I would take a parking lot (for now) rather than another mid-rise apartment building. Im holding out for a high-rise of some kind or how about a higher-ed building if not a high-rise, something that would be worthy of that space long term.

 

Exactly. I concede that apartments is better than a parking lot. But a knee jerk reaction to give the property to a church after the Worth project fell through ? I'm not anti-church. Even though they provide no tax base, the downtown churches we have now have historic and deep roots with the Mexican-American, African-American and Irish American community. Not to mention architecturally significance they all hold. I would defend them all ! But a new church in modern times in prime downtown space , while trying to get corporate companies into our city ? That church would be better suited in the near Southside where it is still very urban. And not near tall buildings. 

 

City needs to just take a chill and take a deep breath. City really needs to think it out carefully. If apartments is all we can muster ? So be it. But at least TRY ! And try to encourage a developer, a right developer that knows exactly what we are trying to do economically in the long long long term. This area will be a investment lets not blow it. To me this is crying out for a mix use office, condo, apartment with some retail in the forty story range !

 

This is downtown in a large still growing American city. Stop treating downtown like it's the Alliance area ? Instead of spreading it all out ? Put it all in one location. Not to mention this is near the Trans hub that will be expanded for decades to come. That is another big bonus for a big project ! I don't know how the post Covid office world will play out ? But it seem young office workers don't want to travel very far to and from work anymore ? Or they want convenient transportation. Like rail that this area has now thanks to the nearby TexRail line. Whatever gets built large or small will be there for many decades. 

[Austin55]

Spoke to some Real Estate insiders yesterday and the price being asked for this site is evidently extremely high (deservedly so) which means it'll take a big player making a big move for anything to make sense here. Good!

[Stadtplan]

 

I would take a parking lot (for now) rather than another mid-rise apartment building. Im holding out for a high-rise of some kind or how about a higher-ed building if not a high-rise, something that would be worthy of that space long term.

 

Exactly. I concede that apartments is better than a parking lot. But a knee jerk reaction to give the property to a church after the Worth project fell through ? I'm not anti-church. Even though they provide no tax base, the downtown churches we have now have historic and deep roots with the Mexican-American, African-American and Irish American community. Not to mention architecturally significance they all hold. I would defend them all ! But a new church in modern times in prime downtown space , while trying to get corporate companies into our city ? That church would be better suited in the near Southside where it is still very urban. And not near tall buildings. 

 

City needs to just take a chill and take a deep breath. City really needs to think it out carefully. If apartments is all we can muster ? So be it. But at least TRY ! And try to encourage a developer, a right developer that knows exactly what we are trying to do economically in the long long long term. This area will be a investment lets not blow it. To me this is crying out for a mix use office, condo, apartment with some retail in the forty story range !

 

This is downtown in a large still growing American city. Stop treating downtown like it's the Alliance area ? Instead of spreading it all out ? Put it all in one location. Not to mention this is near the Trans hub that will be expanded for decades to come. That is another big bonus for a big project ! I don't know how the post Covid office world will play out ? But it seem young office workers don't want to travel very far to and from work anymore ? Or they want convenient transportation. Like rail that this area has now thanks to the nearby TexRail line. Whatever gets built large or small will be there for many decades. 

 

 

I give Paradox credit for choosing a local, downtown FW-based architect (Scott A. Martsolf, AIA) who is versed in church design and has a notable portfolio of recent / significant church projects and someone who understands our city.  The flipside of that is you get a nicer design but it will cost more to build in the end, especially considering they are wanting a legacy project that will last 200-years.  The problem for a lot of non-profits (in general) right now is the cost of construction is outpacing their ability to raise enough funds in order to pull the trigger, especially in this new era of supply chain issues, increasing property values, shifting labor costs and material escalation. 

[Crestline]

This is awesome! 

[Jeriat]

I would take a parking lot (for now) rather than another mid-rise apartment building. Im holding out for a high-rise of some kind or how about a higher-ed building if not a high-rise, something that would be worthy of that space long term.

 
That church would be better suited in the near Southside... 

*Weatherford

[Austin55]

The property is already under contract. No idea who the buyer might be though. Stay tuned...

[Austin55]

The property is already under contract. No idea who the buyer might be though. Stay tuned...

Potentially related to this mornings A&M announcement?

[Crestline]

Potentially related to this mornings A&M announcement?

 

Link to the A&M announcement thread for the curious: https://www.fortwort...?showtopic=7265

 

The A&M renderings at the link don't show the superblock being used. Regardless, my feelings are still:

 

This is awesome! 

[Austin55]

OK, so this is some *very* early info but I did notice four new FAA applicants for a single building (one for each corner of the building) between 100 and 135 feet near this location. Each is labeled "High Rise/Sky Scraper" and has the same listed work schedules, 09/01/2022  to  09/01/2024. 

 

The NW and NE corners are each listed at 135 feet.
The SW and SE corners are each listed at 100 feet. 

The SW corner contains a map, which sure appears to be this site. 
 

 

There is no indication as to who or what the building might be. 

For reference, 100 feet is the same height as the T&P warehouse and 135 feet is the same height as the Bob R. Simpson Building or the new Cook's Dodson tower. 

Now I'm not sure an exact location, it's possible this is something being planned at the the site of the title of the thread, but I'm also wondering if this is'nt just filings for the A&M campus? 135 feet is probably pretty close to the 9 office floors over 2-3 parking floors shown in the renderings. Tbd...

[John T Roberts]

This is interesting.  Please fill us in when you find more information.

[Crestline]

Very interesting! The property is still shown to be under contract here. 

[rriojas71]

It's just really hard to get excited by proposals like this with our long history of things being announced and then nothing happens.  When ground is turning then I will jump on board.

[Stadtplan]

Theres an old adage in the contracting world: It aint real until you can bill. Some might even go as far as to say: It aint real until the check has cashed.

[Austin55]

Give the extreme similarity to the Weatherford and Lexington FAA listing and Taft hinting at 3 highrises in the works, I'd say its a pretty safe bet that this development will be by also be by AHS.

[Dylan]

Perhaps I was a bit too optimistic that a high-rise developer would buy this prime downtown lot and build a high rise (or even a skyscraper) on it.

 

The developer's use of the term "high rise" for a 135-foot building is... generous.

 

The developer's use of the term "sky scraper" for the same 135-foot building is laughable.

 

 

 

EDIT to add: I suppose I'll now hope that this mid-rise project turns out to be a nice one.

[Crestline]

For reference, 100 feet is the same height as the T&P warehouse and 135 feet is the same height as the Bob R. Simpson Building or the new Cook's Dodson tower. 

 

How tall is the Hampton across the street? That would be another helpful reference, for me at least.

[Austin55]

88 feet.

https://www.fortwort....com/fwtall.htm

[Crestline]

Ah, thanks, that's a handy list. So if we get a 135 foot building here, that's 50% taller than the Hampton? Not bad; miles better than the parking lot we have now.

 

I think this parcel covers where 10th Street would be if it continued east in a straight line from the west side of the convention center. I've eyeballed that hypothetical 10th Street as a green line on the sales pamphlet below. Should the developer rebuild 10th Street between Calhoun and Jones on this parcel, or leave the superblock intact?

 

[Austin55]

The FAA has updated the page. An address has been added, 1,000 Jones St, so this is definitely the site. The proposed building was given the go-aheda by the FAA, and is listed as "12-Story Residential Building, 10-Story Parking Structure".

 

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/searchAction.jsp?action=displayOECase&oeCaseID=508187402&row=14 

[txbornviking]

The FAA has updated the page. An address has been added, 1,000 Jones St, so this is definitely the site. The proposed building was given the go-aheda by the FAA, and is listed as "12-Story Residential Building, 10-Story Parking Structure".

 

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/searchAction.jsp?action=displayOECase&oeCaseID=508187402&row=14 

 

10-story parking!?! In an area with no minimum parking requirements...
now that is a DAMNING indictment against the quality of public transit available in this city

[Jeriat]

 

The FAA has updated the page. An address has been added, 1,000 Jones St, so this is definitely the site. The proposed building was given the go-aheda by the FAA, and is listed as "12-Story Residential Building, 10-Story Parking Structure".

 

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/searchAction.jsp?action=displayOECase&oeCaseID=508187402&row=14 

 

10-story parking!?! In an area with no minimum parking requirements...
now that is a DAMNING indictment against the quality of public transit available in this city

 

 

Just another development in car-centric Texas . . . 

[Stadtplan]

Your comment reminded me of this image I happened to catch on Reddit the other day showing 1970's Houston.

 

[NThomas]

Your comment reminded me of this image I happened to catch on Reddit the other day showing 1970's Houston.
 

There's probably more parking there today in garages attached to nearly all of those new buildings.

Hopefully Panther Island will have a similar before/after picture like this that will circulate like this one years from now.

[george84]

The after picture of Houston is pretty old too. The Marriott marquis is not in the photo. Theres several more new buildings even than what that shows. Building both the Toyota center and Minute Maid Park on the east side of downtown, along with Discovery Green park completely changed the face of that area. The new A&M campus might have a similar effect here in FW, I bet that sea of parking lots will be a lot smaller in 3-4 years.

[Jeriat]

Your comment reminded me of this image I happened to catch on Reddit the other day showing 1970's Houston.

 

While Discovery Green did help that section of downtown Houston A LOT, it still has a ways to go overall. 

But if we were to compare cities, it would be unfair anyway, seeing that Houston has better transit, despite still being underwhelming for a city its size.

Love going there anytime I visit, but usually it's only to the area around Discovery Green, Market Square and Main Street. And you can pretty much say the same about DTFW. 

[george84]

You are right, but compared to when I was growing up in Houston, it is night and day on that side of downtown. Looking even closer at that photo, there is quite a bit missing. That photo might be more than 10 years old if Im not mistaken.

[rriojas71]

The FAA has updated the page. An address has been added, 1,000 Jones St, so this is definitely the site. The proposed building was given the go-aheda by the FAA, and is listed as "12-Story Residential Building, 10-Story Parking Structure".

 

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/searchAction.jsp?action=displayOECase&oeCaseID=508187402&row=14 

Like the Belknap and Lexington proposal... is this saying it is a residential tower on top of a 10 story parking structure or is it a 12 story building next to a 10 story parking garage

[Stadtplan]

Based on the 135-foot listed structure height, I would think it is the latter scenario.

Sidenote: From on my experience parking at the Baylor All Saints 10-story Pavilion Garage on Mistletoe Blvd, it is rather annoying to park in a structure that tall.

[Dylan]

 

The FAA has updated the page. An address has been added, 1,000 Jones St, so this is definitely the site. The proposed building was given the go-aheda by the FAA, and is listed as "12-Story Residential Building, 10-Story Parking Structure".

 

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/searchAction.jsp?action=displayOECase&oeCaseID=508187402&row=14 

 

10-story parking!?! In an area with no minimum parking requirements...
now that is a DAMNING indictment against the quality of public transit available in this city

 

 

As someone who rides TEXRail when I go downtown or to the airport, and used to ride buses often before I got a car (still ride them on occasion), I can attest that our transit is lackluster.

 

That said, this is a residential development. Even if Fort Worth had excellent public transit and people wanted to take transit to work and for errands, most would still own cars for when taking transit to their destination isn't feasible. Examples include visiting someone in transitless suburbia, visiting someone on a ranch in the middle of nowhere, visiting an isolated city without intercity transit service, etc.

 

And, Fort Worth is so sprawling, it will never be possible to serve the entire city with adequate transit. In much of suburbia, driving will always be more convenient than transit.

[Crestline]

Just to pile on, I'll wager that this address has the absolute minimum need for residential parking in all Fort Worth, given that it's next door to the absolute maximum convergence of transit options at the intermodal transit center. I'm not disappointed that relatively low-rise residential is planned here but I will be disappointed if it's built with full-tilt parking. Jeez.

[WTXKid]

Denver, CO is sprawling and theyre implementing great public transit/TOD options. When I left they were approving developments without parking.

[txbornviking]

Denver, CO is sprawling and theyre implementing great public transit/TOD options. When I left they were approving developments without parking.

 

speaking of Denver and public transit... yesterday Denver Public Radio released the first of what I think is going to be a 4 episode deep dive into the Denver FasTracks regional rail program etc.

I saw several folks in the pro-transit/urbanist twitter-sphere talking about it prior to it's launch...

 

https://www.cpr.org/...st/ghost-train/

[Dylan]

Serious question: For those of you who own a car and have a license, would you be willing to sell your car in order to move to this development?

 

I doubt any of you can honestly say you would do so.

 

It's completely absurd to suggest we should build large multi-family buildings without providing parking for those who own cars.

 

It's even more absurd developers are actually doing so in other cities. They may save money in the short term, but will lose out on many potential renters in the long term.

[Dylan]

Also, I'd like to add that the taller the garage, the less land area it has to take up for the same number of spaces.

 

We haven't even seen what this development looks like yet.

 

Perhaps the garage will be between two residential towers like with the Belknap & Lexington project.

[Stadtplan]

Isnt parking at these apartment developments just another stream of revenue as is locked storage.

[Austin55]

Perhaps the garage will be between two residential towers like with the Belknap & Lexington project.

 

I think you are right. Given the same developer and the same FAA description and nearly the same heights, this will probably look almost exactly like the Belknap & Lexington project.