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2017 Hurricane Season


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#1 Doohickie

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 12:30 PM

According to this article, the massive flooding from Hurricane Harvey was made much worse by Houston's development philosophy.

 

(Full text version here.)

(Topic Title edited from Hurricane Harvey:  Houston did it to themselves)


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#2 renamerusk

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 02:08 PM

This is the time to weep for Houston; to think in what ways we can assist in its recovery.



#3 JBB

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 03:40 PM

I was ready to question the sensitivity of that piece being published while people are still being plucked from homes, but it was from last year. I doubt there's a city in the country that would fare any different under 2 feet of rain in 48 hours.

I have a friend that lives in Santa Fe in Galveston county and he posted on Facebook at 2:00 am that water was rushing in his house and the authorities told him they couldn't get to them. His post prompted a friend to head that way in a truck large enough to get in and get them out. They had to wade through chest deep water with 2 toddlers in tow and got out safely. It's probably the single most frightening thing I've followed on social media.

#4 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 07:11 PM

I'm scared for my aunt! She lives close to Braes Bayou, and houses down the street from her have flooded.

 

It's still raining in Houston, and the water is still rising!

 

My mom and I were with my aunt in Houston during the big 2015 flooding event. Thankfully, my aunt's house didn't flood then.


- Dylan


#5 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 09:25 PM

KHOU and KPRC TV studios in Houston have flooded. KHOU is broadcasting from WFAA's Dallas newsroom.


- Dylan


#6 Austin55

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 09:32 PM

Hard to say what to do besides build more smartly and encourage less sprawl and more density I guess.  Houston is an economic powerhouse and tons of people want to live there, events like this just seem inevitable at times. 



#7 pelligrini

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 09:14 AM

Yes, events like this are inevitable. I think we shall see the frequency of them increase over the next years to come too. Some of it to climate change and the other to inadequate design, especially when only designing to a 100 yr flood elevation.

 

Houston isn't the only city with the problem. There's a few locations here in Fort Worth that are flooding more often. We (the city) keep encroaching on areas that will flood eventually. That same ongoing development exacerbates and expands the problem. I've worked on a few projects over the years that have made me cringe as a taxpayer, yet they still get built.

 

There's no way to totally avoid an event like what's going on in Houston. I do think that more attention needs to be paid to flood design, and bigger expenditures made to mitigate it.


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#8 Doohickie

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 09:52 AM

The point of my posting the article is this: 

 

As millions have flocked to the metropolitan area in recent decades, local officials have largely snubbed stricter building regulations, allowing developers to pave over crucial acres of prairie land that once absorbed huge amounts of rainwater. That has led to an excess of floodwater during storms that chokes the city’s vast bayou network, drainage systems and two huge federally owned reservoirs, endangering many nearby homes...

 

In the city's eagerness to grow, it neglected fundamental necessary regulations that might have mitigated the effects of Harvey and other storms.  The storms will continue, and Houston's lack of planning is going to further contribute to loss of property and life.  They're hesitant to curb short term monetary gain at the expense of long term stability and safety.


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#9 Volare

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:27 AM

 They're hesitant to curb short term monetary gain at the expense of long term stability and safety.

 

This sounds familiar to me.... hmmm...



#10 renamerusk

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:43 AM

Okay everybody, please accept our own blame for this, first and very probably more of its kind, climate event.  Cities like Houston, Miami and most of the coastal cities of the world are at great and catastrophic risk.  We know of Harvey because it is "our" storm, but over this year, there are storms of this magnitude that have occurred in Southeast and Southern Asia, Europe and South America.

 

In the past, storms moved ashore and quickly dissolved - that was not the case with Hurricane Harvey; and as of this day, the Low Pressure is still intact 4 days post making landfall. Climate Change is not Houston's doing alone.

 

https://www.vox.com/...-global-warming



#11 Volare

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 05:34 PM

 Houston is an economic powerhouse and tons of people want to live there, events like this just seem inevitable at times. 

 

Really??? I know plenty of people who live there, but they live there because their job is there, or they have family there. I was based there for 10 years, and although life would have been easier had I lived there, I elected to commute from Fort Worth because there was no way I'd move there.

 

Ask all the XTO folks who are moving there whether they are happy to be moving from Fort Worth. I'm sure they are happy to have a job, but unless they are moving closer to family, I can't imagine more than 10% are pleased to be moving there. Businesses love it there because the lack of zoning and regulation makes it very cheap for everything from housing to land to labor to operations. But there are consequences to all of these things, and in many cases these consequences make it a very undesirable place to live. And that's before we consider the hurricanes and year-round armpit weather.



#12 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:12 PM

Okay everybody, please accept our own blame for this, first and very probably more of its kind, climate event.  Cities like Houston, Miami and most of the coastal cities of the world are at great and catastrophic risk.  We know of Harvey because it is "our" storm, but over this year, there are storms of this magnitude that have occurred in Southeast and Southern Asia, Europe and South America.

 

In the past, storms moved ashore and quickly dissolved - that was not the case with Hurricane Harvey; and as of this day, the Low Pressure is still intact 4 days post making landfall. Climate Change is not Houston's doing alone.

 

https://www.vox.com/...-global-warming

 

You could argue marginally warmer waters contributed to a slightly stronger hurricane, but Harvey stalling out and the continuous non-stop rain was not caused by global warming. Harvey got sandwiched between two high pressure systems, and the jet stream happens to be too far north to push it along. Unfortunately, there aren't any fronts pushing it along, either. This tragedy was the result of several unfortunate circumstances.

 

Development patterns and the concrete drainage system probably did exacerbate the flooding to an extent.


- Dylan


#13 renamerusk

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:58 PM

 

....In the past, storms moved ashore and quickly dissolved - that was not the case with Hurricane Harvey; and as of this day, the Low Pressure is still intact 4 days post making landfall. Climate Change is not Houston's doing alone.

 

You could argue marginally warmer waters contributed to a slightly stronger hurricane, but Harvey stalling out and the continuous non-stop rain was not caused by global warming. Harvey got sandwiched between two high pressure systems, and the jet stream happens to be too far north to push it along. Unfortunately, there aren't any fronts pushing it along, either. This tragedy was the result of several unfortunate circumstances.....

 

Really - unfortunate circumstances...the jet stream too far....no fronts pushing it along.....

 

Scientific data probably explains the circumstances best -

http://www.independe...r-a7111661.html



#14 johnfwd

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 05:56 AM

We're doing our share of relief assistance by sheltering some of the displaced from the ravages of Hurricane Harvey, as related in this Star-Telegram article.  In 2005, the city provided shelter space in the downtown convention center for New Orleans residents displaced by Hurricane Katrina.  The S-T article doesn't mention the convention center so I'm guessing it's not going to be available.  FYI, Dallas is going to provide its convention center for the Harvey displaced.

 

http://www.star-tele...e169829552.html



#15 pelligrini

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 08:29 AM

Really - unfortunate circumstances...the jet stream too far....no fronts pushing it along.....

 

 

 

Scientific data probably explains the circumstances best -

http://www.independe...r-a7111661.html

 

 

That article is theory from two scientists' blogs. Did you even read it, or just go by the headline? 

 

"However other scientists dismissed their claims, with one describing their concern over wind crossing the equator as "total nonsense"."

 

It could very well be a plausible explanation, but PeopleAreStrange's explanation doesn't deserve the condescending 'really'.


Erik France


#16 renamerusk

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 06:59 PM

 

Really - unfortunate circumstances...the jet stream too far....no fronts pushing it along.....

Scientific data probably explains the circumstances best -

http://www.independe...r-a7111661.html

 

 

That article is theory from two scientists' blogs. Did you even read it, or just go by the headline? ...."However other scientists dismissed their claims, with one describing their concern over wind crossing the equator as "total nonsense"."....It could very well be a plausible explanation, but PeopleAreStrange's explanation doesn't deserve the condescending 'really'.

 

  Here is what I will do

 

(1) If or when PAS request or demand an apology from me, I will not hesitate to apologize publicly to PAS

 

(2) I did read the both headline and the article.  The article is not definitive and leaves room for others to dismiss its claims.  Last Monday, North America witnessed an amazing solar eclipse called and calculated to occur by "scientists".  Not only was it an amazing event, it was just as amazing to me that science can use its tools, make measurements to be accurate almost to the minutes of when and where the eclipse would occur.  No doubt that there were scientists years ago who dismissed the date and place of the 2017 solar eclipse; and there will be undoubtedly, scientists who will dismissed date and places of future astronomical events.

 

There are people who are hard to convince that this planet is susceptible to the impact of human actions; they are willing to deny evidence and will cite today's weather as a sign that climate is normal.  So, not yesterday but a couple of decades - pre Katrina, pre Sandy, pre Moore, Okla and now pre Harvey,  these people have been telling us its a hoax.  Now with these storms on the book and more predicted in the future, how is it that denial is still plausible; no, really how is it?

 

I think Science is one of the greatest invention of mankind.  I think I will trust in the findings such as the following:

 

https://www.scientif...xtreme-weather/

 

https://insideclimat...mann-penn-state

 

http://www.climatece...-the-jet-stream



#17 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 30 August 2017 - 09:23 PM

I'm not going to demand an apology, but I do stand by my position that global warming is not the reason Harvey stalled out.
 

The Scientific American article you posted is basically my position- the jet stream's position can cause weather extremes.

 

I'm not convinced global warming is the reason the jet stream is well north of us at the moment. Jet stream fluctuations are completely normal.

 

---------------------------
 
As for global warming- it's happening, but we (humans) aren't the only cause.
 
We've been gradually warming since glaciers covered this continent tens of thousands of years ago.


- Dylan


#18 Austin55

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 12:31 PM

Strongtowns weighs in

 

https://www.strongto...harvey-land-use



#19 renamerusk

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 02:22 PM

I'm not going to demand an apology, but I do stand by my position that global warming is not the reason Harvey stalled out.
 

The Scientific American article you posted is basically my position- the jet stream's position can cause weather extremes.

 

I'm not convinced global warming is the reason the jet stream is well north of us at the moment. Jet stream fluctuations are completely normal.

 

---------------------------
 
As for global warming- it's happening, but we (humans) aren't the only cause.
 
We've been gradually warming since glaciers covered this continent tens of thousands of years ago.

 

Worth considering for believers that the climate is actually normal and is in a cycle that comprises "cold/warm" periods; essentially not to worry.  What is the concerning downside of humans practicing conservation and taking a cautious approach after what has become a series of recent and unprecedented natural events of devastation?

 

At this point, nothing seems to be definitive, but at some time we may reach a point of no return and when devastating events become routine and irreversible.  Humans are the specie that has the intelligence to make change and to engineer the planet like no others.

 

Is the change as gradual as is being believed -

 

http://news.national...eratures-years/



#20 pelligrini

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 02:23 PM

Strongtowns weighs in

 

https://www.strongto...harvey-land-use

 

A lot of his arguments are very simplistic and the conclusions not well thought out, especially his example in #3. The first sentence is not a fact, and the logic is flawed. The parking in his image could have been done as bi-level.


Erik France


#21 JBB

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 02:34 PM

To that point, you could also replace parking spaces with green space. That lot will never be full. Cities typically require developments to have far too much parking and developers, especially those of big box retail, love to build the church for Easter.

#22 pelligrini

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 02:50 PM

Agreed. Some cities are learning though; along with the minimum required parking maximum limits are in some zoning codes as well. Exceeding the limits in Fort Worth leads to some extra requirements in Urban Forestry.

 

Quite often that needed green space is also detention or retention ponds for mitigating the runoff from the developed impermeable surfaces.


Erik France


#23 Doohickie

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 03:06 PM

To that point, you could also replace parking spaces with green space. That lot will never be full. Cities typically require developments to have far too much parking and developers, especially those of big box retail, love to build the church for Easter.

 

In Europe I noticed that a lot of parking spaces *are* green space.  They pave parking lots with pavers that have holes in them so the grass can grow through them.  There's still a solid footing for cars to park on but there's also grass there.  I think those have been discussed on this forum previously.


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#24 JBB

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 03:11 PM

I've seen them a few times and I remember them being discussed when Christ Chapel Church was buying up houses in the surrounding neighborhood for additional parking. I'm not sure if there are any of those type of lots over there.

#25 renamerusk

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 05:53 PM

A lot of his arguments are very simplistic and the conclusions not well thought out, especially his example in #3. The first sentence is not a fact, and the logic is flawed. The parking in his image could have been done as bi-level.

 

"from discussing hurricanes to discussing parking lots".

 

No discussion about the question "How is it that we find the atmosphere so juiced up that it could deliver 50inches of rain in one weekend and go on to drench Northern Louisiana, Arkansas, Western Tennessee. 

 

Is there any willingness to ask ourselves how we can get this situation reversed?



#26 Austin55

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 09:58 AM

Another disaster could be brewing, this time for Florida.

 

http://www.miamihera...e171291337.html



#27 pelligrini

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 12:03 PM

There was a good segment on Harvey and climate change today:

http://www.wnyc.org/...urricane-harvey


Erik France


#28 Doohickie

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 12:26 PM

Another disaster could be brewing, this time for Florida.

 

http://www.miamihera...e171291337.html

 

According to this WeatherUnderground model (they're part of Intellicast), Irma may slam Florida's Atlantic cost, then slice right into the Atlantic seaboard states.

 

at201711_ensmodel.gif


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#29 Doohickie

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 12:41 PM

“The hurricane force winds in Irma are wider than Florida,” tweeted Bryan Norcross, hurricane specialist at the Weather Channel. “You won’t need a direct hit to get Wilma-type winds & storm surge on both coasts.”


Whoa:unsure:


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#30 renamerusk

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 02:41 PM

"The first thing we needed to do was to withdraw from the Paris Climate Accord because; --- well,cause its an Obama Thing".

 

The season is only 2/3 the way through and we may be looking down a rapid fire gun barrel. :eek:



#31 Doohickie

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 03:31 PM

we may be looking down a rapid fire gun barrel.

 

Yep, Jose is lining up behind Irma.


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#32 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 12:39 AM

My aunt in Houston had to worry about Harvey (thankfully, she was spared), now my dad in Miami has to worry about Irma.


- Dylan


#33 renamerusk

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 09:06 AM

My aunt in Houston had to worry about Harvey (thankfully, she was spared), now my dad in Miami has to worry about Irma.

 

OMG! The winds that are smashing the islands right now are unimaginable. All that water that has been frozen for thousands of years is in the oceans; warmed and evaporated; and  energizing and loading up the hurricanes with trillions of gallons of rainwater. 

 

Harvey was Satan; Irma is Satan 2.



#34 JBB

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:54 PM

It looks like Jose is going to stay far out in the Atlantic, but Irma is still bearing down on Florida.  I read today that a number of East coast military aircraft are being relocated to the JRB.



#35 JBB

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 09:52 PM

My aunt in Houston had to worry about Harvey (thankfully, she was spared), now my dad in Miami has to worry about Irma.

 

Holding a good thought for your dad.  Is he evacuating or staying there?



#36 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 12:29 AM

Doesn't sound like my dad is going to leave town! :o  :( 


- Dylan


#37 JasnoDTX

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 05:10 AM

My people are in Tampa. I was just there a month ago... beautiful place. Judging by what the meteorologists say the west coast will be hit hard. Indian Rock area will be underwater.

#38 Austin55

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 01:14 PM

Irma is beginning to hit Miami.

https://twitter.com/...893202615087104

A tower crane working on a high rise has collapsed.

https://twitter.com/...942718433271808

#39 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 05:42 PM

My dad and his roommate in Miami are fine, but their power is out. Worst of the storm has passed.


- Dylan


#40 Austin55

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 05:48 PM

It seems like it has weakened quickly.

#41 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 05:51 PM

Hurricanes usually weaken quickly when they make landfall. Warm ocean water is their life source.


- Dylan





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