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New Will Rogers Arena

Cultural District New Arena

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#101 safly

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 02:02 PM

Has anyone ever thought about HOW BAD the cultural district will STINK once this is finished? More horse stalls? More shows? Downwind? conf.gif


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#102 drstevens

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Posted 31 October 2005 - 12:13 PM

QUOTE(Urbndwlr @ Jan 25 2005, 01:38 AM) View Post

This should be a multi-purpose venue that can easily host a first tier sports team should one become interested in Fort Worth. Why build one with 6000 too few seats?? At least build the thing to make it easily expanded to 18-20,000 seats in case such an opportunity arises.


WOW! I'm pretty much opposed to using public funds to build sports venues for billionaire owners, though I understand it's the result of a competitive free market system that I do support - but now you are advocating using public funds to support the building of a sports arena for a team-to-be-named later. Perhaps, if we are going to build a 12,000 seat arena for public use, then the added cost of going to 18-20K seats may be good public investment if landing a sports franchise is something the citizens really desire. I just hope that Fort Worth Voters are smart enough, that if they pay the tab, or at least 50% of the tab, for a venue, that we keep the naming rights for ourselves so we can name it after someone or something in character with our city. It is a shame that the new cowboys stadium will most likely carry the moniker of some corporation and not Tom Landry, Tex Shram, or Clint Murchison, (okay - even Jerry Jones if it comes to that).

#103 redhead

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Posted 31 October 2005 - 09:21 PM

I'm pretty much opposed to building for billionaire owners, too, but in this case the TAXPAYER is not only the owner but also the beneficiary. While other cities (including FW) are building convention centers for small to medium conventions that are not only decreasing, but being chased by a growing number of cities; prudent municipalities are building for specialized venues that can only be wooed by a limited number. Let us be the specialist with THE MOST TO BOAST! If the smell of horse manure is offensive to some, think of it as dollar signs to this city!!

#104 safly

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Posted 31 October 2005 - 10:44 PM

QUOTE
If the smell of horse manure is offensive to some, think of it as dollar signs to this city!!


In a sense yes, dollar signs, but come on. Imagine taking a visit to the Modern or some other museum during HUGE futurity stakes or rodeo days. It just brings a different element to the CD. And Fort Worth is a VERY WINDY city most of the time. DTFW and surrounding sections will smell like the rodeo parade for a good week. I couldn't stand the aftermath when I lived in DTFW, though the parade scene was nice to see and take pic's of, I just knew that it was gonna be a weekend full of manure and other STUFF lying around and smelling. Now those same elements will take place on a more consistent basis. That scene NEEDS to be in the FWSYards. Just because CERTAIN folks hold CERTAIN positions of influence with CERTAIN associations, it will get done there at the CD. That is sad, because it puts the SPECIAL INTEREST of certain groups or persons ahead of the SPECIAL HERITAGE that FW is known for, the FWSYards. If the PUBLIC has to PAY some, then the PUBLIC should DECIDE. dry.gif
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#105 ghughes

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 06:21 AM

Actually the windiness helps disburse the odors rather well. And from what I've witnessed in the barns people do a very good job of keeping things clean. Besides, horse manure dosn't really have much odor at all, nor does cattle. (Those herbivores are just so special)

#106 safly

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 07:48 AM

But in the stalls it can get quite... methanous. Especially mixed with other stuff, not good. Having lived right underneath the grand Houston and 9th street PARADE turn, I was often REMINDED that the rodeo was in town. Smelled like the zoo near the elephant area. TIMES 10! I get you on the whole wind disbursement thingy. But I think it helps travel the stinch to very nearby places, and if it doesn't get windy, well it will just hover about. Cleaning the stalls is a good thing, but where does that stuff go in the meantime? I'm sure it costs a pretty penny to get that stuff movin. Not a bad business to contract in. dry.gif . You know, get a piece of the PATTIE. wink.gif
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#107 fwfrog

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 11:37 AM

I mentioned this in a thread ("Antique Mall's Mysterious Neighbor")

What do you think of the article in the FW Weekly about the re-vamped, "horse-drawn" Montgomery?

I guess this arena woudn't be complete for quite some time... I wonder if our current minor league teams (Flyers/Brahmas) would move here from their current downtown digs?

#108 DrkLts

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 08:38 PM

QUOTE(drstevens @ Oct 31 2005, 12:13 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Urbndwlr @ Jan 25 2005, 01:38 AM) View Post

This should be a multi-purpose venue that can easily host a first tier sports team should one become interested in Fort Worth. Why build one with 6000 too few seats?? At least build the thing to make it easily expanded to 18-20,000 seats in case such an opportunity arises.


WOW! I'm pretty much opposed to using public funds to build sports venues for billionaire owners, though I understand it's the result of a competitive free market system that I do support - but now you are advocating using public funds to support the building of a sports arena for a team-to-be-named later. Perhaps, if we are going to build a 12,000 seat arena for public use, then the added cost of going to 18-20K seats may be good public investment if landing a sports franchise is something the citizens really desire. I just hope that Fort Worth Voters are smart enough, that if they pay the tab, or at least 50% of the tab, for a venue, that we keep the naming rights for ourselves so we can name it after someone or something in character with our city. It is a shame that the new cowboys stadium will most likely carry the moniker of some corporation and not Tom Landry, Tex Shram, or Clint Murchison, (okay - even Jerry Jones if it comes to that).


If Fort Worth would had built or builds a decent sized facitily, we would of been able to of been considered a host city for the New Orleans Hornet NBA team. Oklahoma City is now the city the team is calling home for now at least. Oklahoma City! What do they have FW doesnt? Oh yeah a facility that has 20,000 seats!!!!!
That arena (Ford Center) is for thier minor league hockey team. If a city like OK City can build big, you can't tell me FW can't. The Ford Center's web site said funding was done by a temporary one-cent sales tax. The place looks awesome. Nice to have one in Fort Worth if it was possible.

Link:
The Ford Center

#109 grow_smart

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 09:01 AM

QUOTE(DrkLts @ Nov 2 2005, 08:38 PM) View Post


If Fort Worth would had built or builds a decent sized facitily, we would of been able to of been considered a host city for the New Orleans Hornet NBA team. Oklahoma City is now the city the team is calling home for now at least. Oklahoma City! What do they have FW doesnt? Oh yeah a facility that has 20,000 seats!!!!!
That arena (Ford Center) is for thier minor league hockey team. If a city like OK City can build big, you can't tell me FW can't. The Ford Center's web site said funding was done by a temporary one-cent sales tax. The place looks awesome. Nice to have one in Fort Worth if it was possible.

Link:
The Ford Center



Why would the NBA put a team in a market that already has a team? If you owned a league, wouldn't you want to market your product in an area that doesn't already have a team? It wouldn't make sense for them to locate a team on a temporary basis to an existing NBA market. Did you see the Hornets home opener? It was a sell out. I guarentee you wouldn't have had a sell out in FTW.

#110 DrkLts

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 12:06 PM

^^^ True, but NBA aside, why did Oklahoma City build a 20,000 seat arena? No pro team calls it a permanent home. The city isn't quite an entertainment capital. Why does a city like OKC need such a huge arena like that? Fort Worth with a 600,000+ population can do better than build a measily 12,000 seat facility. Heck if we do set it at that limit, what happens in 20-30 years when FW population increases and the new arena we build becomes over-crowded and obsolete? Will Rogers arena all over again. Even the FW convention center arena is "too small". At the time it was built, it must of been a giant in that era. Can we just build an arena that can provide enough seats and space for at least a century??? Saves alot of money from building and rebuilding after a few decades of outgrowing arenas. Does that make sense anyone?

#111 drstevens

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 12:28 PM

Fort Worth has some more basic problems to overcome if you want a sports franchise. This city has never really shown that it really is a "Sports Town". Look at the evidence. The home town division I NCAA Football Team, although they have been winning and flirting with a national ranking for 5-7 years now, with some standout talent and a penchant for close, hard fought games, cannot sell out one of the smallest stadiums in college football. Okay, they aren't Texas or USC, but this is good football!. Support for minor league teams is mediocre at best. At the grass roots level, where true, in-the-blood, sports fanaticism can be measured, the FWISD is one of the least successful school districs in producing top tier sports teams. Occassionally we have fielded a competitive baseball or basketball team, but football is non-competitive at the state level and football is the one that takes the grass roots, long term dedication. I'm not complaining, I'm glad that the District thinks it's more important to spend their money elsewhere (I am assuming that is at least one reason). but if the population were more sports minded, there would be much more pressure on the District from it's citizens to up the stakes in the football wars.

I contend that most Fort Worthers are plenty happy to call the Cowboys, the Rangers, the Mavericks, and the Stars their teams. Especially since, soon, two of those team will be located closer to Fort Worth than to Dallas.
Lastly, note the traffic on I-30 on the evening of a Ranger game. I bet the difference in taffic from each city is far more than the differences in population can explain.

#112 safly

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 09:57 AM

QUOTE
Occassionally we have fielded a competitive baseball or basketball team, but football is non-competitive at the state level and football is the one that takes the grass roots, long term dedication. I'm not complaining, I'm glad that the District thinks it's more important to spend their money elsewhere (I am assuming that is at least one reason).


Can I get a WITNESS from the FORUM? Can I get a.......ehhh alright. Calming down now.

FINALLY, somebody AGREES with my POV, when it comes to the correlation of BIG TIME HS sports (football) and community PROGRESS!

BTW, the FWISD does not send and spend the money where it SHOULD send or spend OUR MONEY!

FUND PUBLIC SCHOOL ARTS! wink.gif

QUOTE
Okay, they aren't Texas or USC, but this is good football!


AHHHH, second that.
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#113 cjyoung

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 11:58 AM

QUOTE(drstevens @ Nov 3 2005, 12:28 PM) View Post

Fort Worth has some more basic problems to overcome if you want a sports franchise. This city has never really shown that it really is a "Sports Town". Look at the evidence. The home town division I NCAA Football Team, although they have been winning and flirting with a national ranking for 5-7 years now, with some standout talent and a penchant for close, hard fought games, cannot sell out one of the smallest stadiums in college football. Okay, they aren't Texas or USC, but this is good football!. Support for minor league teams is mediocre at best. At the grass roots level, where true, in-the-blood, sports fanaticism can be measured, the FWISD is one of the least successful school districs in producing top tier sports teams. Occassionally we have fielded a competitive baseball or basketball team, but football is non-competitive at the state level and football is the one that takes the grass roots, long term dedication. I'm not complaining, I'm glad that the District thinks it's more important to spend their money elsewhere (I am assuming that is at least one reason). but if the population were more sports minded, there would be much more pressure on the District from it's citizens to up the stakes in the football wars.

I contend that most Fort Worthers are plenty happy to call the Cowboys, the Rangers, the Mavericks, and the Stars their teams. Especially since, soon, two of those team will be located closer to Fort Worth than to Dallas.
Lastly, note the traffic on I-30 on the evening of a Ranger game. I bet the difference in taffic from each city is far more than the differences in population can explain.



1. You can't discount the fact that many of the better athletes who live in Fort Worth attend schools in other districts such as Keller ISD, Crowley ISD, and Everman ISD (don't a lot San Antonio kids attend Converse Judson?). In fact, Keller Central, Keller Fossil Ridge, and North Crowley high schools are well within the boundaries of Fort Worth. Most of the athletes who attend Everman live in the Highland Hills and Hallmark neighborhoods of south Fort Worth. These schools have had very successful teams.

2. TCU's fan support and stadium are slightly above average for the Mountain West Conference (the average stadium size in the MWC is 41,958, including out of the norm stadiums for BYU and San Diego State). They don't get more support because (a) it's small and doesn't have a large alumni base and (cool.gif they haven't won anything of note in their entire history. As a UTA grad, I'm only motivated to attend matchups against big time competition. They haven't had much of that lately (who cares about Southern Miss and Louisville)?. If they played Texas, TAMU, and OU every year (and won) they would have to expand the stadium.

3. You're probably right in the case of the pro teams.
sad.gif

#114 safly

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Posted 06 November 2005 - 10:53 PM

QUOTE
They don't get more support because (a) it's small and doesn't have a large alumni base and ( they haven't won anything of note in their entire history. As a UTA grad, I'm only motivated to attend matchups against big time competition. They haven't had much of that lately (who cares about Southern Miss and Louisville)?. If they played Texas, TAMU, and OU every year (and won) they would have to expand the stadium.


Ahhh, they did WHOOP UP on USC back in the '98 or '99 Sun Bowl. Can't remember if it is played on NYEve or NYDay? Any help here.

HECK, if they played Sul Ross, San Angelo, or TTech every year, then they would have to expand that puppy. biggrin.gif


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#115 fwfrog

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 09:34 AM

QUOTE
they haven't won anything of note in their entire history.


Well, not in their entire history.

1935 - National Champions
1938 - National Champions

That's one more national championship than A&M (who last won a title in 1939)... and one less than UT (who last won a title 35 years ago)

(btw... the Frogs beat USC in the 1998 Sun Bowl)

I would agree... it is sad that they can't pack Amon Carter Stadium.

#116 drstevens

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Posted 09 November 2005 - 12:24 PM

QUOTE(cjyoung @ Nov 4 2005, 11:58 AM) View Post


1. You can't discount the fact that many of the better athletes who live in Fort Worth attend schools in other districts such as Keller ISD, Crowley ISD, and Everman ISD (don't a lot San Antonio kids attend Converse Judson?). In fact, Keller Central, Keller Fossil Ridge, and North Crowley high schools are well within the boundaries of Fort Worth. Most of the athletes who attend Everman live in the Highland Hills and Hallmark neighborhoods of south Fort Worth. These schools have had very successful teams.


If this statement is true (I have no idea what the numbers are) I contend it is driven by the fact the the City of Fort Worth, via the FWISD is not providing a program that serious, forward thinking, aspiring athletes want to be in. I agree that suburban cities have had success, often at the 1, 2 and 3A levels that don't require as large a commitment in expenditure as the 4 and 5A programs. This also shows that the talent pool exists, further making my point.


QUOTE(cjyoung @ Nov 4 2005, 11:58 AM) View Post

2. TCU's fan support and stadium are slightly above average for the Mountain West Conference (the average stadium size in the MWC is 41,958, including out of the norm stadiums for BYU and San Diego State). They don't get more support because (a) it's small and doesn't have a large alumni base and (cool.gif they haven't won anything of note in their entire history. As a UTA grad, I'm only motivated to attend matchups against big time competition. They haven't had much of that lately (who cares about Southern Miss and Louisville)?. If they played Texas, TAMU, and OU every year (and won) they would have to expand the stadium.


But TCU's aspirations aren't to be like the other teams in the Mountain West, but more like the other teams in the top 25. Look at their stadium sizes. If the only way TCU can fill ACS is to host teams like UT, OU, and aTm, then it further emphasizes that Fort Worthers do not support the local team. If these were true sports fans, they'd come see good football every week, not just when their alma mater is in town. TCU is not in a major conference. This is because of their historical lack of success in the past, but they have been on the edge for a while now. Definitely one of the better 'minor' conference teams. The path to a top level conference is through success AND draw. If you can't get draw at home, you aren't even going to get looked at for a major conference spot.

The TCU history issue has been aptly coverered. I will admit, however, that TCU's history is moot since there are very few are still around who got to enjoy those glory days in a very diffferent world before WWII.

QUOTE(cjyoung @ Nov 4 2005, 11:58 AM) View Post

3. You're probably right in the case of the pro teams.
sad.gif


Very few of even the very largest metropolitan areas have successfully supported multiple teams in the same sport. Possibly basketball, but as to baseball and football, I have serious doubts.

#117 cjyoung

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 07:44 AM

Oklahoma City's success as interim host pushes it to top
Nov. 9, 2005
CBS SportsLine.com wire reports


OKLAHOMA CITY -- NBA commissioner David Stern said Wednesday night the league has no plans for expansion, but the New Orleans Hornets' success in their new home has made Oklahoma City the favorite location if a team were to relocate.

"I can say without reservation that Oklahoma City is now at the top of the list," Stern said before the Hornets' game against the Orlando Magic.

Stern said the team's transition from New Orleans to Oklahoma City has gone smoother than expected and the team ranks sixth in the league in season ticket sales. He said the move was smoothed by the fact that the arenas in both cities are operated by the same company and the television and radio agreements are with the same companies.

The Hornets will play 35 home games in Oklahoma City and another six at LSU in Baton Rouge. If the New Orleans Arena is ready for use by March, three of the games could be moved from Baton Rouge to New Orleans.

Stern said he didn't know whether doing so would require the Hornets to play in New Orleans next season, because of the team's arena contract with the city.

The team has an option to play a second season in Oklahoma City.

"I don't trust lawyers," said Stern, an attorney himself.

Stern said the NBA's relationship with Oklahoma City began when mayor Mick Cornett dropped by his office a couple years ago on a visit to New York.

"He described the virtues of Oklahoma City -- what it had been through on the tragic side and how it was rebuilding and how sports had been a part of that," Stern said.

Cornett visited again and sent information to Stern about Oklahoma City's potential to support a major league franchise. He also mentioned the Ford Center, which was built to NBA and NHL standards in 2002 without a major tenant.

Stern joked that he wished Cornett luck in getting an NHL franchise.

After Hurricane Katrina forced the Hornets out of New Orleans, Cornett tried to call Stern several times, and finally got through to deputy commissioner Russ Granik.

Over time, Oklahoma City emerged as the prime candidate to temporarily house the Hornets, and Stern recommended the city to Hornets owner George Shinn.

As he has done since the team came to Oklahoma City, Stern re-emphasized that the league intends for the Hornets to return to New Orleans. But he has been impressed by Oklahoma City.

"This a delicate subject," Stern said. "I would say that I see it as a potential for relocation more than for expansion. ... I think that 30 teams is enough right now."

AP NEWS
The Associated Press News Service

Copyright 2004-2005, The Associated Press, All Rights Reserved


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright © 1995 - 2005 SportsLine.com, Inc. All rights reserved. SportsLine is a registered service mark of SportsLine.com, Inc.
CBS "eye device" is a registered trademark of CBS Broadcasting, Inc.



#118 cjyoung

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 08:04 AM

QUOTE(drstevens @ Nov 9 2005, 12:24 PM) View Post


If this statement is true (I have no idea what the numbers are) I contend it is driven by the fact the the City of Fort Worth, via the FWISD is not providing a program that serious, forward thinking, aspiring athletes want to be in. I agree that suburban cities have had success, often at the 1, 2 and 3A levels that don't require as large a commitment in expenditure as the 4 and 5A programs. This also shows that the talent pool exists, further making my point.


I'm not talking about small programs in suburban cities. Boswell, Central, Fossill Ridge, and Northwest are all in Fort Worth and are larger than Paschal!


QUOTE(drstevens @ Nov 9 2005, 12:24 PM) View Post

But TCU's aspirations aren't to be like the other teams in the Mountain West, but more like the other teams in the top 25. Look at their stadium sizes. If the only way TCU can fill ACS is to host teams like UT, OU, and aTm, then it further emphasizes that Fort Worthers do not support the local team. If these were true sports fans, they'd come see good football every week, not just when their alma mater is in town. TCU is not in a major conference. This is because of their historical lack of success in the past, but they have been on the edge for a while now. Definitely one of the better 'minor' conference teams. The path to a top level conference is through success AND draw. If you can't get draw at home, you aren't even going to get looked at for a major conference spot.

The TCU history issue has been aptly coverered. I will admit, however, that TCU's history is moot since there are very few are still around who got to enjoy those glory days in a very diffferent world before WWII.


Football was much different back then and can't even begin to compare to today's game. If TCU wants my support they will have to win something.

#119 renamerusk

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 12:29 PM

Wow, we seem to be drifting away fro the subject at hand.. I believe that the primary purpose of the new arena should be to serve the Agri-business Industry and to make Fort Worth the premier host city for those conventions and events.

Professional sports is too schezophrenic; teams are never satisfied and cities are always being pitted against one another. Fort Worth is served better in the long run not to get into professional sports lottery. Nothing everlasting will comes from associating our city with a professional sports team as much as associating our city with an industry which is more important to the local economy than a NBA playoff game.

Perhaps, there should be a separate thread dedicated to the "pro & cons" of having a professional sports team so that a debate can be carried out. IMHO, the agri-theme of the new arena is exactly what Fort Worth needs.

#120 fwfrog

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 12:41 PM

QUOTE
If TCU wants my support they will have to win something.


This is why ACS can't ever sell-out. Too many fair-weather fans. I guess a conference championship wasn't enough for you?

#121 DrkLts

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 09:15 PM

QUOTE(renamerusk @ Nov 10 2005, 12:29 PM) View Post

Wow, we seem to be drifting away fro the subject at hand.. I believe that the primary purpose of the new arena should be to serve the Agri-business Industry and to make Fort Worth the premier host city for those conventions and events.


Why should the arena be built to just a specific event or industry? Isn't multi-purpose better for the long-run? Afterall, if the final planned phase of the convention center's arena is to be demolished, where are we gonna see our NBDL Fort Worth Flyers & Brahmas gonna play basketball/hockey? Or concerts and circus shows? Instead of lowering the number of arenas (FW Convention Center/Will Rodgers) to one mid-sized rodeo areana, build one big one that can accomodate anything that comes to town. Oklahoma City built an NBA/NHL sized arena with no major tenant. I believe Kansas City is working on an arena too without a pro basketball/hockey team as well. Besides, if Fort Worth does become a premier host city for equestrian events, don't we need a premier sized arena? happy.gif


#122 DrkLts

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 09:25 PM

QUOTE(renamerusk @ Nov 10 2005, 12:29 PM) View Post

Perhaps, there should be a separate thread dedicated to the "pro & cons" of having a professional sports team so that a debate can be carried out. IMHO, the agri-theme of the new arena is exactly what Fort Worth needs.


Proud to say I already made that thread a long time ago, a popular thread I might add at 66 replies and over 1,800+ views. biggrin.gif
Anyone interested can find it under Arts & Entertainment titled FortWorth+Sports=Reality???
Or if it works, go directly to it with this link
Fort Worth+Sports=Reality?

#123 tamtagon

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 09:36 PM

QUOTE(DrkLts @ Nov 10 2005, 10:15 PM) View Post

QUOTE(renamerusk @ Nov 10 2005, 12:29 PM) View Post

Wow, we seem to be drifting away fro the subject at hand.. I believe that the primary purpose of the new arena should be to serve the Agri-business Industry and to make Fort Worth the premier host city for those conventions and events.


Why should the arena be built to just a specific event or industry?


My impression is the Agri-business industry is so big, diverse, stable and long-term that a venue targeting this single industry would be more than lucrative. The image/perception of Fort Worth is already very magnetic to agri-business employees (generalized) and pairs up very well with the descriptions of the Cultural District facility to give Fort Worth a considerable advantage to host some very important events. It's likely that the Fort Worth Stockyards could experience symbiotic growth.

#124 JBB

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 09:53 PM

I think you're taking the whole rodeo/horse focus a little bit too literally. I'm not privy to any inside info., but I believe the new arena will be all-purpose enough to handle the hockey and basketball teams. However, the bread-and-butter of the arena's business will be the rodeo and horse shows.

#125 renamerusk

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 10:14 PM

QUOTE(JBB @ Nov 10 2005, 11:53 PM) View Post

...I believe the new arena will be all-purpose enough to handle the hockey and basketball teams...


Yes; the new arena could be design to be all-purpose, but I believe that it is in the best interest of Fort Worth to avoid getting itself in a similar situation as did Dallas, Houston and San Antonio which have built and subsequently abandoned perfectly suited arenas just to satisfy the egos o the megamaniacs running professional sport teams. I can envision TCU's and TWU's basketball teams as users of the new arena as well as Fort Worth hosting a round of regional NCAA tournaments games; but I would strongly urged that the city does not entagled itself with either the NBA or the NHL....they just seem never to be satisfied!

"Keep Fort Worth folksy!"



#126 JBB

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 10:35 PM

I was referring to the minor league teams playing in the CC arena right now, not major professional teams. If the intent is to tear down the CC arena, the new CD arena will likely become the new home of the Flyers and Brahmas.

#127 safly

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 10:51 PM



HOWDY!

I'm not too sue if the AGRI-BUSINESS is very "STABLE", NPI.
But to abandon the thought of not eyeing a professional any major sports team is absurd. If FW were to be granted a HUGE major league franchise in whatever given sport, it would absolutely mean the world to us. IT would put FW on the map beyond the Agri-market. I hope FW looks into satisfying the future NEEDS of the sports frenzied. biggrin.gif

A RODEO and stock show can only do so much. I still don't see the futurities figures adding up. Coming from someone who has been to a couple of WR arena events. I REALLY believe that this new venue will only suit the needs of a certain business clientele in the minority, though elitist. That is why I believe they should be solely responsible for the financial burden or windfalls.

Has there ever been a city that has claimed full ownership of a major sports franchise? dry.gif

QUOTE(renamerusk @ Nov 10 2005, 10:14 PM) View Post

QUOTE(JBB @ Nov 10 2005, 11:53 PM) View Post

...I believe the new arena will be all-purpose enough to handle the hockey and basketball teams...


Yes; the new arena could be design to be all-purpose, but I believe that it is in the best interest of Fort Worth avoid getting itself in a similar situation as did Dallas, Houston and San Antonio which have built and subsequently abandoned perfectly suited arenas just to satisfy the egos o the megamaniacs running professional sport teams. I can envision TCU's and TWU's basketball teams as users of the new arena as well as Fort Worth hosting a round of regional NCAA tournaments games; but I would strongly urged that the city does not entagled itself with either the NBA or the NHL....they just seem never to be satisfied!

"Keep Fort Worth folksy!"



I REALLY don't concur. I know of no arena that has benn "abandoned"? More specific please. In fact, I believe SA has created more arena space to meet the gigantic demand for convention goers, multi-level sports orgs., and Emergency Shelters alike.
BTW, just read a nice article about SA in the ENews. Says that thsi city is tops when it comes to Commercial development, vacancy levels, financial industry market share, and health services. Good to know.
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#128 KevCoz

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 11:15 PM

OK, safly, here you go:
Dallas - Reunion Arena
Houston - The Summit/Compaq Center
San Antonio - Hemisfair Arena and The Alamodome

All were abandoned by their teams. Reunion Arena's future is uncertain. The Summit in Houston is now a church. Hemisfair Arena was demolished. The Alamodome is now mostly empty except for the Alamo Bowl, occasional NCAA basketball games and concerts.

#129 safly

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Posted 10 November 2005 - 11:29 PM

The new SBC Center is right smack next to the old Hemisfair arena, which I believe still exists. Alamodome was NEVER a perfect fir for the SPURS games. The AD was always curtained off for half basketball court and half prep for a rock concert or something like that. New SBC center is legit. And it is primarily for indoor SPORTS and CONVENTION types. A must see. New Verizon center for concerts. AD has a number of services that exist and a number of events or uses that can ultimately be accomodated. HS football games(playoffs and rivalry), Them AINTS I mean SAINTS biggrin.gif , HS All-American football game (ARMY sponsor), emergency evacuation, possible MLS team (crack open the roof), along with what you mentioned.
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#130 tamtagon

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Posted 11 November 2005 - 12:44 AM

QUOTE(safly @ Nov 10 2005, 11:51 PM) View Post

I hope FW looks into satisfying the future NEEDS of the sports frenzied. biggrin.gif

Has there ever been a city that has claimed full ownership of a major sports franchise? dry.gif



A venue for any major league sports franchise in Fort Worth's future would probably saddle up in downtown near the Trinity River development.

I think the Green Bay Packers are owned by that city.

#131 safly

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Posted 13 November 2005 - 04:30 PM

I hope so. I always wanted that Cat's ballpark to be settled along the West Fork of the TR. A much better and wider DTFW view. Would have been nice.
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#132 cjyoung

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 12:15 PM

QUOTE(fwfrog @ Nov 10 2005, 12:41 PM) View Post

QUOTE
If TCU wants my support they will have to win something.


This is why ACS can't ever sell-out. Too many fair-weather fans. I guess a conference championship wasn't enough for you?


Why don't the mighty frog alumni base better support it's team?



#133 ghughes

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Posted 14 November 2005 - 05:07 PM

Not to appear sexist, but could the relative percentage M/F influence the support? After all, rabid football support appears to be a stronger phenomenon among those sporting a Y chromosome!

#134 cberen1

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Posted 15 November 2005 - 01:57 PM

At TCU the season tickets are practically free ($250 ish per seat). There's no investment in the tickets, so you aren't losing anything if you don't go. If they cost more, it might be a different situation. For example, I've got about $150 per seat per game tied in Texas A&M Season tickets. If I don't go and I can't get rid of the tickets, that's $600 wasted. Even as bad as this season has been, I haven't (and won't) miss a game. But if it would only be a waste of $40, $50 or even $100, I could blow it off a lot easier.

Hell, I think the students still get in for free. Show up late, leave early, whatever... ...it doesn't cost anything.

Across the country though, major market colleges have a harder time filling up the stadium than do small market teams. Not necessarily as a rule, but there are strong trends that way. Think about Rice, Houston, Tulane, SMU, TCU, UTEP, Miami, Rutgers, Pitt, Whoever plays in New York, Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia, St. Louis, etc. Compare those to Nebraska, Notre Dame, Va. Tech, Texas A&M, Penn State, Michigan, Purdue, Clemson, etc. There are some major market teams that do very well in attendance (USC, Texas, ASU...), but not as many as you would think.

I'm not saying Ft. Worth is a major market, but it's big enough that people wouldn't have to travel far to fill up the stadium.

#135 safly

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Posted 16 November 2005 - 05:30 PM

Like I've said before, TCU MUST play them old lore of the SWC teams of old. CREATE a distinct rivalry. Texas NEEDS to play TCU, not NTU. That is why I think the UT schedule this year and last few are JOKES! BIG 12 is weak , maybe not next year but since OU let those pros go pro, the conference as a whole has been suspect. It's a joke every time UT plays Rice or Houston or NTU or NMState. God awful JOKE!
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#136 Urbndwlr

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Posted 18 November 2005 - 05:45 PM

QUOTE(tamtagon @ Nov 11 2005, 02:44 AM) View Post

QUOTE(safly @ Nov 10 2005, 11:51 PM) View Post

I hope FW looks into satisfying the future NEEDS of the sports frenzied. biggrin.gif

Has there ever been a city that has claimed full ownership of a major sports franchise? dry.gif



A venue for any major league sports franchise in Fort Worth's future would probably saddle up in downtown near the Trinity River development.

I think the Green Bay Packers are owned by that city.



YES. SAVE ME A SEAT ON YOUR BANDWAGON. I WILL TIRELESSLY SUPPORT ANY FIRST-TIER SPORTS FRANCHISE THAT IS ESTABLISHED HERE IN FORT WORTH.
Minor leagues are cute/fun, but absolutey not the same. We're too big to jack around with a full house of minor league franchises. Behind Austin, we're the largest city in the US without a major sports franchise bearing our name. Already a die-hard TCU fan, and non-alumnus.

I'm consistently frustrated by some Fort Worthians' obsessive skepticism related to undertakng any endeavor that is of first-class quality or scale. "Oh, you know nothin' will ever work 'round here... small town.... oh, but Dallas already has one..... nobody will ever live Downtown.....Fort Worth will never support a serious art museum...." Right.

#137 DrkLts

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Posted 18 November 2005 - 09:16 PM

QUOTE(Urbndwlr @ Nov 18 2005, 05:45 PM) View Post

I'm consistently frustrated by some Fort Worthians' obsessive skepticism related to undertaing any endeavor that is of first-class quality or scale. "Oh, you know nothin' will ever work 'round here... small town.... oh, but Dallas already has one..... nobody will ever live Downtown.....Fort Worth will never support a serious art museum...." Right.


Someone I see eye-to-eye with! I swear I hear those same old excuses! What's up with that???
Do those people have a low self-esteem for our big city? I have hopes of some exciting things that might/could happen, but it can only be a matter of time before something great comes our way where everyone goes "Wow here in Fort Worth!?!" lol

#138 ghughes

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Posted 18 November 2005 - 09:46 PM

As a friend of mine pointed out the other day, our leadership is focused on a 40 year-old highway idea (SW Pkwy) and a 25 year-old airport agreement. No wonder things look pessimistic.

#139 renamerusk

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Posted 18 November 2005 - 11:12 PM

QUOTE(ghughes @ Nov 18 2005, 11:46 PM) View Post

As a friend of mine pointed out the other day, our leadership is focused on a 40 year-old highway idea (SW Pkwy) and a 25 year-old airport agreement. No wonder things look pessimistic.


Of which either by itself (SW Pkwy or DFW Airport) is overwhelmingly more vital to this and any other town than would be the collective impact of a NFL, a ML, a NBA and a NHL sport franchise. IMHO professional sport is not in the same league with infrastructure.

#140 safly

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Posted 19 November 2005 - 01:18 PM

I beg to differ on that one rusky. BTW, what happened to your moniker?

Sidenote: driving along my area I noticed a Rusk St. near a RR track along 377 and Beach St. Any relation?
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#141 renamerusk

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Posted 19 November 2005 - 05:28 PM

QUOTE(safly @ Nov 19 2005, 03:18 PM) View Post

I beg to differ on that one rusky. BTW, what happened to your moniker?

Sidenote: driving along my area I noticed a Rusk St. near a RR track along 377 and Beach St. Any relation?



I am pretty sure that it is name in honor of Thomas Jefferson Rusk, Texas Resident 1834-57; there are other streets in that and other subdivisions honoring Lamar, Bowie, Houston, etc.

'KEEP FORT WORTH FOLKSY" smile.gif

#142 Urbndwlr

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Posted 19 November 2005 - 07:16 PM

QUOTE(renamerusk @ Nov 19 2005, 01:12 AM) View Post

QUOTE(ghughes @ Nov 18 2005, 11:46 PM) View Post

As a friend of mine pointed out the other day, our leadership is focused on a 40 year-old highway idea (SW Pkwy) and a 25 year-old airport agreement. No wonder things look pessimistic.


Of which either by itself (SW Pkwy or DFW Airport) is overwhelmingly more vital to this and any other town than would be the collective impact of a NFL, a ML, a NBA and a NHL sport franchise. IMHO professional sport is not in the same league with infrastructure.



I also disagree w/ you. DFW: yes, very important. SW Parkway: an expensive, short-sighted solution to a situation that is a natural result of our own city's sprawl. The parkway will temporarily relieve the conjestion but will facilitate and greatly accelerate the continued sprawl to the far southwest. (kiss the current beauty and serentiy of the North Texas hill country good bye). I hope eveyone enjoys those extra 5-10 minutes the road shaves off their commutes.

#143 ALotech

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 03:04 AM

Things have gotten off the subject in this post. The coliseum is to be replaced, not remove. The auditorium and tower are going to remain. Going to the drunkyards is not in the plans, so that is a mute subject. The other thing is that we are not trying to attract sports teams to hook up with the facility. It is to enlarge the capacity of seats in the building for the attraction it already draws. I canít tell you how many horse shows they host, but I can say that they are there almost every weekend. Some big, some small, but that is why we built the John Justin arena there. Fort Worth is home to a minor league hockey, the Brahmas (Fire folded a couple of years ago), and to a new D-league basket ball team, the Flyers. They will for the most part play at the convention center, but due to itís schedule, they will play at Will Rogers also. It would be nice to see some of the game from a luxury box in the new facility. Other annual events include the Shrine Circus and Golden Gloves. The GG has move the John Justin arena because attendance has fallen. The other problem that has been brought up is parking. Donít forget that the city will be removing the Harley St. compound and leveling that for parking also.

#144 safly

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 12:13 AM

How's this for a subject? SA Gets the Nod

Talk amongst yourselves. biggrin.gif

COWTOWN, eh?
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#145 ghughes

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 07:07 AM

Surely San Antonio isn't trying to grab the "Cowtown" moniker on the basis of rodeo conduct! After all, the closest thing to a cow in a rodeo is in the calf roping. Bulls aren't cows and steers aren't cows so wrestling and riding them doesn't lead to Cowtown.

But congrats to SA. Maybe the competition will perk up the Fort Worth quality as well.

#146 tamtagon

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 09:41 AM

QUOTE(Jonnyrules23 @ Jan 23 2005, 01:04 PM) View Post

New arena on horizon

By Anna M. Tinsley

Star-Telegram Staff Writer


Although a completed arena could be years away, plans are in place to clear the site by moving the Harley Service Center as soon as summer 2006 to the old Federal Depot south of downtown.

By 2008 or 2009, work should be under way to demolish the current building, landscape the area, realign Harley Avenue and build a parking lot to serve the complex.
...
"At this point, we would have to go flat out to open in 2010 or 2011."

For now, the city is focusing on making room for a new arena.


So, like, has there been a press release or another official information distribution about this project since the Star-Telegram last January?

It's agonizing to get all worked up and excited in 2005 over something great like this new arena which wont open for at least five more years!!! arg

QUOTE(ghughes @ Feb 2 2005, 10:34 AM) View Post

A smaller equestrian-centric facility would compliment the Stockyards and would be a great addition. Only problem is having the Stock Show split between the CD and the Stockyards would be bad for the participants who want to park their animals in a barn and walk to the rodeo.


Since the Stockyards is for entertainment, maybe chmpions of the various stock show could have a dedicated display venue in the Stock yards. Commencements and competitions occur during the week in the Cultural District, Friday afternoon cavalcades are lead by category favorites to the Stockyards for awards ceremonies and event closing celebrations in the Stockyards. Considering the number of premier events already hosted in Will Rogers Memorial (combined with probable event additions attracted to a new arena), a dedicated parade route would be warranted between CD and SY with infrastructure rennovations which would eliminate traffic flow encumberment during the cavalcades. The route would also accommodate passenger trains and generate an additional pedestrian and public transit boulevard beginning in downtown, through the Stockyards and to the Cultural District.

#147 cjyoung

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 03:16 PM

QUOTE(safly @ Dec 5 2005, 12:13 AM) View Post

How's this for a subject? SA Gets the Nod

Talk amongst yourselves. biggrin.gif

COWTOWN, eh?



I wish the cowtown/cutting horse folks either step up or let us move on from the fake, 1/2 a$$ western culture promotion. blink.gif

#148 cjyoung

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 01:45 PM






Posted on Sun, Mar. 19, 2006


Development plans escalate

By MIKE LEE
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

FORT WORTH -- The first to go was the lumberyard. Then an old factory. Now plans are up for a new museum.

With the demise of a city maintenance yard in the Fort Worth Cultural District, block by block plans for development of the area around the Will Rogers Memorial Center are escalating into what could become an even bigger complex with an even stronger Western theme.

High on the list of proposals are a long-awaited new arena tailored to the annual Southwestern Exposition and Livestock Show and Rodeo, new and larger museums, and acres of new parking. The result could be a new look for much of the Cultural District.

"The arena's going to have a huge impact," said Philip Poole, an architect and land developer who has worked on several projects in the Cultural District.

Not only could the arena draw more patrons to the area, it could also serve as a catalyst for other development up and down Montgomery Street, much of which was, until recently, lined with industrial buildings.

Nearby residents, however, are concerned that a new arena would bring unwanted traffic and noise to their neighborhood, and they want to make their voices heard as plans unfold.

"We understand Montgomery is primed for development," said resident Mike Beaupre. "We want to be a part of the conversation the city has with the developers."

Discussions are also under way for a possible expansion of the Fort Worth Museum of Science and History and a possible merger with the Cattle Raisers Museum, now operated by the Texas and Southwestern Cattle Raisers Foundation on West Seventh Street.

The Kimbell Art Museum, farther to the east, is also developing plans for a new building across the street from its architecturally acclaimed building just off Camp Bowie Boulevard.

Funding for the projects would likely come from a variety of sources, including sizable contributions from private donors. But the city would own the new arena, and taxpayer funds would likely be used to fund improvements such as streets and other infrastructure.

Stock Show plans

Stock Show officials have talked for years about the need for a new arena to replace the Depression-era Will Rogers Memorial Coliseum and have targeted the site that once housed the city's Harley Service Center.

The Harley center moved to the old Federal Depot in January, and plans are under way to realign Harley Avenue to create a spot for the new arena adjacent to the Will Rogers complex.

A nonprofit group affiliated with the Fort Worth Stock Show has been buying land since 2001 along Montgomery Street south of Will Rogers, records show. The group, Event Facilities Fort Worth Inc., has bought about $4 million worth of real estate and had about $4.8 million in available funds at the beginning of 2005, records show.

The land bought by Event Facilities will likely be used for parking when the new arena is built, said W.R. "Bob" Watt Jr., the rodeo's general manager and a member of the Event Facilities board.

Some of that land was used this year for overflow parking during the Stock Show's three-week run.

"The show has grown so much, [the land] has become very valuable to us even today. We've got two pieces covered up with nothing but trailers," Watt said recently.

Stock Show Chairman Ed Bass said in a written statement that a new arena will fill a void in Fort Worth.

"Now that the City has the Convention Center updated and a convention center hotel on course, our most glaring need in terms of major public facilities is a new, state of the art arena," the statement says.

"The Will Rogers Coliseum was built in 1936. It seats fewer than 5,800 people. We need a modern facility more than twice that size to serve a city of 600,000 people and a county soon pushing a million and a half. We don't need anything as big as American Airlines Center -- we're thinking 12,000 seats or so -- but we definitely deserve something as good as Dallas."

The new arena would have more room for luxury boxes than Will Rogers, along with improved bathrooms, concession stands and wheelchair accessibility.

"Our goal is to bring as much as half of the money from the private sector," Bass said in his statement. "That's absolutely unheard of for a civic facility without a major league sports team."

More museums

The area could take on a distinctive Western theme if the Cattle Raisers Museum moves to a nearby site.

The museum's board has wanted for several years to move in next to the National Cowgirl Museum and Hall of Fame, which sits just off Montgomery Street on Gendy Street near Will Rogers, said Pat Riley, who serves as executive director for the Cowgirl and Cattle Raisers museums.

The opportunity might come if the science museum decides to expand its current building.

"We [the Cattle Raisers Museum] are exploring the possibility of being part of their new expansion, their new building," Riley said.

Science museum spokeswoman Margaret Ritsch said she couldn't release any specifics about the possible expansion. The museum's board has been discussing the idea for about 20 months, but so far, the only thing definite is that the museum won't be leaving its current site.

"Absolutely not. This location is where we are," Ritsch said.

A third museum, highlighting material from the Fort Worth branch of the National Archives, has been proposed for an empty tract north of the science museum. That museum would have meeting rooms, exhibit space and a work area for historians. It also would help finance a parking garage on nearby land, which could be a boon for the whole Cultural District.

Neighborhood concerns

Residents in an Arlington Heights neighborhood across Montgomery Street from Will Rogers, however, have nervously watched the demolition of familiar businesses along Montgomery Street, including the Double Ring Seal Co. and the Alexander Lumber Co.

And several residents are wondering whether the new arena will bring more Stock Show traffic into their neighborhood, which already sprouts "no parking" signs during the annual event.

"We all recognize that Montgomery is a busy street; it's also an interface and boundary to the neighborhood," said David Miley, who has lived in the area since 1972. "If the needs of the neighborhood are not addressed, we can be very negatively impacted. It would be very simple to fix if we'd simply sit down and talk to them."

Beaupre, who can walk to the Stock Show from his house, said he likes the idea of a new arena.

"I think it's great for the city," he said. "My concern is to try to keep the traffic as much as possible out of the neighborhood."

Bass, in a written statement, said the new roads and the new parking lots could help nearby residents.

"Parking for the new arena would be accessed primarily via University Drive and Montgomery Street, plus a newly realigned Harley Street," he said. "This should effectively reduce the impact on residential neighborhoods to the west that are now adversely affected due to lack of parking and access."

City officials drew up a proposal in 2002 that showed the future alignment of Harley Avenue and the potential locations of the new museums. But city officials say they haven't done much planning beyond that.

The Harley Avenue realignment isn't scheduled to be built until 2008 or 2009, city Transportation Manager Thomas Leuschen said. Bass has said that the new arena could be open by 2010 or 2011.

"At some point, we'll have to sit down with the private groups to discuss the plans," City Manager Charles Boswell said.

Poole, the architect, said it's important that the arena and other developments blend into the neighborhood. He suggested lining the sides of the street with shops and restaurants, within walking distance of both the neighborhoods and patrons of the Will Rogers Center.

"Montgomery Street wants to be included in the Cultural District," he said. "They should line both sides of Montgomery Street with some kind of activated retail so it's not a parking lot."

Staff writer Sandra Baker contributed to this report.
Mike Lee, (817) 390-7539 mikelee@star-telegram.com



© 2006 Star-Telegram and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.dfw.com



#149 cjyoung

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 01:46 PM

QUOTE

"The Will Rogers Coliseum was built in 1936. It seats fewer than 5,800 people. We need a modern facility more than twice that size to serve a city of 600,000 people and a county soon pushing a million and a half. We don't need anything as big as American Airlines Center -- we're thinking 12,000 seats or so -- but we definitely deserve something as good as Dallas."


What does the size of the city have to do with the size of the arena, Ed? conf.gif

...plus we'll have 700,000+ in 2011!

Last time I checked Greensboro, NC wasn't that big and they have a 23,000 seat arena with no major pro or college teams!

Greensboro Coliseum

Also, OKC hasn't done all bad with the Ford Center. I think the New Orleans Hornets and the NBA are now seriously considering OKC for relocation or expansion.

#150 cjyoung

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 02:01 PM

UD Arena great fit for NCAA

By Kyle Nagel

Dayton Daily News

A few years ago, as it does every year, the NCAA held a meeting in Indianapolis for schools that were tournament hosts and those that wanted to be.
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After awhile, someone stood up and asked the NCAA representative what his school would have to do to be awarded first- and second-round games.

"The answer was, 'Why don't you talk to Tim O'Connell?' " said Ted Kissell, the University of Dayton athletic director, speaking about his associate AD and UD Arena's executive director. "They said no one does it better than him."

Largely because of the reputation O'Connell and his staff have built with the NCAA, along with its history with the tournament and community support, UD Arena has become one of the most prolific venues at hosting NCAA tournament games.

Because of the groundwork laid by former UD athletic director Tom Frericks and the skill with which the arena staff handles the games, area basketball fans get to see the tournament up close. That meant witnessing four first-round games on Friday that were decided by an average of 6.75 points.

"The people here in town do a great job with the tournament, everybody around it, the workers, the ushers," said North Carolina coach Roy Williams. "They've done it well enough that people keep asking them to do it again."

Despite its relatively small size compared to current venues, the arena continues to host the opening-round game and is often in the running for first- and second-round duties.

Once the weekend is over, UD Arena will have overtaken Madison Square Garden in hosting the third-most tournament games all-time, with 73. It trails only Kansas City's Municipal Auditorium (83) and Salt Lake City's Huntsman Center, another of this year's venues.

"The layout of the building, especially for its age, is great," said Greg Shaheen, the NCAA's vice president of Division I men's basketball. "And the pride they show in hosting an event sets them apart."

The story of this success began with Frericks, who spearheaded the construction of the arena in 1969. At the time, it was one of the better on-campus facilities in the country.

Frericks, a member of the NCAA Division I Basketball Committee, also was in a unique position to bring games to his new arena. Throughout the 1970s, 17 NCAA tournament games were played in Dayton.

Frericks and his staff wrote the book on how to be a tournament venue ó literally. Around the time UD Arena began having games, the NCAA adopted the UD staff's manual as an example for how to run a tournament.

The NCAA has been impressed enough with the support the tournament receives in Dayton that it awarded the opening-round game to the arena upon its 2001 inception. Both Kissell and O'Connell said the area's basketball-crazed reputation has helped the tournament's first and second rounds return for the fourth time in the past 15 years.

"Look at tonight," O'Connell said while relaxing after Tuesday night's opening-round game, a Monmouth victory against Hampton. "For the sixth straight year, in the opening round, we've sold more than 7,000 tickets. That's not the University of Dayton. That's the Dayton community."

Recently, the NCAA extended the opening-round game's stay in Dayton to 2010. O'Connell and his staff have already put in a bid to host tournament games in 2009 and 2010.

He feels Dayton has a strong chance.

"They have to see the physical attributes, but also service attributes," O'Connell said. "We make sure our media friends are taken care of, that our customers taken care of, that it's a nice environment.

"They like to know that we have control and can handle problems."

Of anyone, O'Connell can.

Just ask the NCAA.

"He's a stud," Shaheen said. "He takes great pride in all things involved with the tournament. He cares about making it right."

Contact Kyle Nagel at 225-7389.

SIZE NOT IMPORTANT
Despite being one of the smallest NCAA tournament venues this season, UD Arena is third all-time in hosting tournament games. Here are the 2006 first- and second-round hosts:
Venue City Capacity
Greensboro Coliseum Greensboro, N.C. 23,500
Palace of Auburn Hills Auburn Hills, Mich. 22,000
Wachovia Center Philadelphia 21,600
American Airlines Center Dallas 19,200
Veterans Memorial Arena Jacksonville, Fla. 16,000
Jon M. Huntsman Center Salt Lake City, Utah 15,000
UD Arena Dayton 13,000
Cox Arena San Diego 12,400







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