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New Will Rogers Arena

Cultural District New Arena

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#51 cjyoung

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 09:36 AM

The funny thing about Safly's comments on horses and rodeos is how completely inaccurate they are.  In fact, in terms of companion horse numbers, Ft. Worth sits in the center of the highest density horse population in Texas.  This is dead center for horse lovers.  There are cattle all over the state, but the geography South of Waco is not as conducive to the cattle business as it is in the grasslands North and West of there.

The San Antonio, Hollywoodized version of the Cabllero experience is a great image to portray for a city.  But the heart on soul of the Texas cattle business, and the genuine rodeo experience starts here and heads West.  San Antonio, Houston and Austin wave their arms in the air and yell, "Hey, we're authentic cowboy people, really!  Ya'll."  But their rodeos are mostly just carnivals with concerts (particularly Houston's).

My personal opinion is that no rodeo arena should seat more than about 400 people and they should all be outdoors, but that's a personal bias against big rodeos.  Fort Worth has a greater claim to the horse culture, rodeo culture and cattle business history than any other major Texas city.  To not capitalize on that is foolish.

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But, what does that get you?

#52 safly

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 11:37 AM

The funny thing about Safly's comments on horses and rodeos is how completely inaccurate they are.  In fact, in terms of companion horse numbers, Ft. Worth sits in the center of the highest density horse population in Texas.  This is dead center for horse lovers. 

My personal opinion is that no rodeo arena should seat more than about 400 people and they should all be outdoors, but that's a personal bias against big rodeos.  Fort Worth has a greater claim to the horse culture, rodeo culture and cattle business history than any other major Texas city.  To not capitalize on that is foolish.

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Innacurate! LMAO! And throbbing in pain from doing so. Son, just where do you think the ORIGINAL if not earlier cowboyz came from? Hint: the word is....vaquero. ^_^ I cannot believe what I am reading and who is actually supporting your ideas. Have you signed into the Forum under 2 or more names? :blink: Now FW is a great location for a N.Texas regional Stockshow of sorts, but that is not the case. You can build that case if Dallas was not in the game, but they is. Like Court mentioned, we do like us some cows, some more than others. But , this does not warrant the proposal of a NEW solely Livestock/ Stockshow arena to be made, in an Arts District, especially if we are footin the bill. This is someones DREAM, and that person happens to be very POWERFUL, and in the end that person just might get their way. But until then I am shootin it down. And as for "Dead center for horse lovers", I would disagree especially when you hear of reports from emaciated horses throughout N.Texas every year. Just drive down I-35 or 281 South towards A-Town or SA, and then you will undestand what REAL Livestockin and Equine is all about. Ever heard of towns like Marion, Evant, Dripping Springs, Medina, Hondo, Poteet, N.B., Selma, China Grove, Bandera, Seguin, Castroville, Floresville, Marble Falls, Kerrville, Comfort, Center Point, Ingram, Hunt, and Boerne,TX? These are ALL TOP NOTCH ranchin, ropin, ridin, and farmin towns, to name a few. They don't even bother with the FWLSSARodeo. They go to SA or H-Town, religiously, like it's some pilgrimmage. Why bother with a rodeo that is small enough to send it's parade down the streets of DTFW?

BTW, just gettin warmed up here.

There are cattle all over the state, but the geography South of Waco is not as conducive to the cattle business as it is in the grasslands North and West of there.

Just read the above comments.

The San Antonio, Hollywoodized version of the Cabllero experience is a great image to portray for a city.  But the heart on soul of the Texas cattle business, and the genuine rodeo experience starts here and heads West.  San Antonio, Houston and Austin wave their arms in the air and yell, "Hey, we're authentic cowboy people, really!  Ya'll."  But their rodeos are mostly just carnivals with concerts (particularly Houston's).


Sorry buddy, but if you have never witnessed a day at the LINK of it's roots: Greatest Show On Earth! Then you MUST take those earlier comments back. The "Heart and Soul" of the Texas cattle business starts HERE. Jokin me, right? That is why most of our famed Steakhouses in this great state boast a prime cut of beef from the MIDWEST. Like Nebraska, Chicago, Kansas City, and St. Louis. :cry: And yes, our Rodeos are for the most part carnivals with concerts. That has pretty much been the Rodeo experience for generations. BTW, C and S Texas cowboyz are just that, cowboyz, not N. Texas Wildcatters who play dress up.


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#53 safly

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 11:50 AM

[/quote]

Hey, what about Stevie Wonder, Al Green and Ronald Isley? :blink:

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[/quote]

Lou Rawls played with the FWSO. It was a blast from what I heard. I would hope that Yo Yo Ma would solo with them too and not just play a one night V CLiburn Concert Series event. Same with Antonio Benedetto, aka Tony Bennet. Would ike to hear some more crooners and classics accompany the FWSO. Like Lionel Richie, maybe once, twice, alright 3 times with them. Some more Pink Martini or Barry Manilow. how bout Robert Earl Keene, Jerry Jeff W, and Hal Ketchum w/ Mark Chestnutt. Plenty more Texas Songwriters and talent to showcase.

Edited by safly, 29 June 2005 - 10:04 AM.

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#54 SurplusPopulation

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 12:47 PM

The "Heart and Soul" of the Texas cattle industry was FW for many generations during the heyday of the Chisholm Trail, not to mention the bygone glory of Niles City, home of the Amrour and Swift meat packing plants. Yes our beef does come from the midwest now, but that does not remove FW's legacy in the cattle-ranching business. We get oil from Alaska, Mexico and the middle east; does that mean Texas has no claim to the oil industry?
I have never been in the business of attacking the pride that people from other areas have in their hometowns; I am simply saying that despite your hostility toward FW pride we do have a long proud history of cowboys, horses, cattle, rodeos, stockshows, and the like. For generations cattle ranchers from not only this state but others have viewed FW as a big city that is always inviting for small town people. That is a huge part of FW's charm. I myself am not really into cowboy or western culture very much; more of a city boy. I do however realize that FW does have a history that should be cherished just as much as our world class museums, beautiful park system, renowned racetracks and a downtown that is safe, comfortable, and inviting for all types of people very single day.
Do we need an arena devoted entirely to rodeos? No, I don't think we do either because we have many other venues that currently meet this need. The new arena should however take these types of events into account as much as possible because they are a source of pride for many FW natives as well as millions of others who have visited our fine city over the years to attend them, as well as being a source of revenue for those terrible, POWERFUL people that sink so much money back into this city. NO AXE GRINDING PLEASE.

PLEASE STOP TRYING TO EDUCATE US ABOUT WHY WE ARE ALL COMPLETELY WRONG ABOUT HOW WE VIEW FORT WORTH.

It serves no purpose on this forum other than to be devisive.

I am truly looking forward to the next forum meeting and the opportunity to shake your hand and meet you face to face, safly.

#55 mosteijn

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 12:55 PM

...beautiful park system...

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Um...which Fort Worth do YOU live in? I wasn't aware of our good park system, I've always thought there was too much room for improvement. :blink:

#56 Yossarian

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 01:05 PM

Yes our beef does come from the midwest now


But Texas provides the largest surce of that cattle that is only "fattened" in the midwest. So whereas the beef may be technically from the midwest, the cattle providing said beef was for the most part raised here.

#57 cjyoung

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 01:11 PM

...beautiful park system...

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Um...which Fort Worth do YOU live in? I wasn't aware of our good park system, I've always thought there was too much room for improvement. :blink:

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They do need improvement, but they are at least above average when comparing them to parks in other cities.

#58 cberen1

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 01:39 PM

Safly,

First, I said "Texas cattle business", not worldwide cattle business. So bringing up the steak naming habits of the midwest is silly.

Second, a caballero is a horseman and has a slightly higher class connotation than vaquero. Look it up. If I had meant vaqueo, I would have said vaquero. You should check what you are dishing out before you open that gigantic mouth (err... keyboard) of yours.

As for your ignorant, ill-informed opinions about the cattle business (which is different from the steak business), you are on shaky ground. I've spent years working with animal demographics in the state. What I'm saying isn't based on driving around and making wild claims about what I thought I saw from the highway. There are more horses around Tarrant county than there ever will be around Austin, San Antonio or Houston.

I also said the heart and soul of the cattle business starts here and heads West. Amarillo and Abilene have played a tremendous role in the history of the cattle business and are great rodeo cities. I didn't say the steak business starts here. Chicago and Kansas City are the real centers of the steak business, but you could easily argue that New York and Washington DC have the best steak houses in the country and they don't have anything to do with the cattle business, rodeos, cowboys or stock shows.

There are a number of cow/calf operations all over the South and central Texas, but a city person such as yourself probably doesn't really understand how the cattle business works. The bulk of the cattle feed sold in the state does not go to "Marion, Evant, Dripping Springs, Medina, Hondo, Poteet, N.B., Selma, China Grove, Bandera, Seguin, Castroville, Floresville, Marble Falls, Kerrville, Comfort, Center Point, Ingram, Hunt, and Boerne". More cattle feed gets sold in any one of Dalhart, Dumas or Hartley than in all of your towns combined. Now that's not because the cattle are hungrier in Dalhart, as your big city education might lead you to assume. It's because there are just a hell of a lot more animals in Dalhart.

If you want to get into a protracted discussion about the nature of the cattle business in the state, bring it. There's plenty to be discussed and I've got more than enough industry experience to hold my own with the likes of you.

The rodeo experience as a carnival with concerts is not a universal, multi-generational thing. It's just a big city, relatively recent thing. Those circuses are just a way for you city people to feel like you've done your part to be Texans. The real rodeos still go on in hundreds of little towns just like they have for a little under 100 years now. People that have an annual pilgrimage to Houston or SA for the show are just going to one more carnival. They don't look at it as the climactic event in a year's worth of cowboying. The nice thing about the Ft. Worth show is that it is a little more genuine/authentic; a little less hollywood.

If you are going to insist on faking some hick dialect in your typing, please don't follow it up by including yourself as part of Ft. Worth. "we do like us some cows": Who talks that way? Your obvious love affair with San Antonio and unending complaints about Ft. Worth lead me to believe that you should only speak on behalf of the residents of San Antonio.

As for the colliseum, the roads in and out of the stockyards may not support the volume of traffic that the planners anticipate. I'd like to have it in the stockyards, but that might preclude a lot of non-agriculural uses. The visibility will be better up on Montgomery. If it is an architectural gem, it will be easier to appreciate there.

#59 SurplusPopulation

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 02:22 PM

Cberen1, I'll handle the emotional apect of this; you definitely should take the factual side. Thank you for the information and for seeming to understand a little of the frustration I am experiencing.

Safly, cberen1 has a really good point that I forgot to mention: do not attempt to talk down to us or mock us from high in your tower. Arrogance is unbecoming; especially when coupled with the ignorance that has now been illuminated.

Johnny, no doubt our parks could use work. But Trinity Park and the Botanic Gardens are gems that I will always love and cherish, without even discussing the little neighborhood parks that provide peace, beauty, and tranquility all over the city. My personal favorites are the one overlooking the zoo off of Forest Park and the one that is attached to Ridglea Elementary, both for sentimental, childhood reasons.

#60 courtnie

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 02:56 PM

GOOD LORD....I leave for one day and the attacks start flying...I Cberen1 am the one that said "we do loves us some cows"...it was ment as a JOKE....i believe you guys have real emotional attachments either to the cows or the aspect of ranching. I grew up in it....I more on the horse side of things have done my time in the ring...My family still rides in the rodeo and raises horses and cattle...I am not disputing that we are infact up to our ears in livestock...but I believe that an arena has its place in the Stock Yards. BUT there are many people who have never been close to a cow other then driving down the freeway saying "look maw a cow"..... :blink:
I think we should all lighten up....I cant wait to meet all of you wonderful people at the meeting.....ITs sooo exciting....and i believe i have the right to say "we do loves us some cows" because im a native of here... ^_^
as for the big city education comment.... umm helloo....we are becoming more of a big city.... ;) I have a big city education as well.....that doesnt make me any different from you.

:cry:

#61 Yossarian

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:01 PM

Safly:

Man I enjoy a good percentage of your posts, and many of them present some alternative views (in terms of aspects I have not thought about) that adds to the relevant discussions, but when you are in a hole, stop digging.

cberen1:

You are absolutely correct. Fort Worth is a veritable Mecca for the horse breeding/training/showing industry. Whether it is hunter/jumpers, cutting, Spanish, Arabian, or even thoroughbreds for polo, some of the biggest names are in and around Fort Worth. You really cannot get the same concentrations except perhaps in KY and central Florida today.



As to the cattle industry, both San Antonio AND Fort Worth can claim to derive a significant chunk of their culture and history from the ranching heritages of South Texas and West Texas respectively. San Antonio probably got out of the chute, so to speak, earlier in that some of the great South Texas ranching empires were in operation prior to Fort Worth's founding. Then again, at that time, Indianola (no longer in existence) was a larger city than San Antonio and the port of embarkation for most agricultural products from South Texas (Galveston served the same purpose for transshipments from East Texas).

Once the Chisholm Trail opened, Fort Worth began to blossom, and really took off after the railroads extended their lines to Fort Worth. This was the era of Armor and Swift moving meat packing operations to Fort Worth as well as stockyard operation engendering what we now affectionately know as Cowtown. San Antonio really never had that kind of operation and its attendant industries – it really developed into a regional capital for South Texas agricultural activities and in the early 20th century, a military city owing to its proximity to a global hotspot (Mexico was in the throws of a revolution at the time) and favorable climate for air corps training. With the advent of rail service out of Fort Worth, West Texas opened up to greater ranching capabilities, and thus some of the great West Texas ranching empires were born.

Where are we today? Overland trucking has altered the landscape and meat packing activities have migrated back north. The feed differential that you reference cberen1 is mainly due to larger feedlots in the Panhandle and less to do with actual ranching activity – in essence, one goal in ranching is to rely on mother earth to feed your stock and not fritter assets away in feed. But, from an agronomics standpoint, the only really good range lands in South Texas are south of a line running from Del Rio to Brackettville to Uvalde to Pearsall to Tilden to Three Rivers to Beeville to Sinton and finally Corpus. Safly, the hill country is almost completely devoid of serious range operations (they exist, but are not typically efficient and or profitable). West Texas, on the other hand runs a much larger number of cattle although at a greater acre per cow rate. The interesting note between the two areas (South and West Texas) is that both have very high nitrogen contents in the soil which provides for very nutritious grass. Whereas it takes more acres to run the same number of cows as compared to other parts of the state, the added nutrition puts weight on the animals faster and more efficiently than in say East Texas. The problem with South Texas thus becomes one of environment, especially for the breeds of cattle favored by the beef industry. Angus is the rage today and a good number of cattlemen will argue that Charolais and Hereford actually provide better beef characteristics (both represent a larger chunk of prime graded beef but the public has really taken to the Angus Breeder’s marketing campaign), but nonetheless, all of these breeds are for the most part Northern European in origin and thus have some difficulty acclimating to South Texas’ hotter and more humid environment as well as its thicker scrubland. On the other hand, all thrive in West Texas with the Charolais thriving farther north (above Abilene). West Texas agriculture is for the most part the province of Fort Worth (less so today with the movement of markets to more regional spots as San Angelo or Amarillo) but when you are out in Brownwood, or Albany, or Guthrie, the locals refer to Fort Worth as a sort of provincial capital (not literally) in the same way that locals in Falfurrias, Hebbronville, or Freer refer to San Antonio.

As to rodeos, Safly you are absolutely correct in stating that from a circuit standpoint, San Antonio and especially Houston reign supreme. But that issue is precisely what the proponents of a new arena want to rectify. The reason is that Fort Worth’s stock show used to be on par if not greater than those other two and Fort Worth is the home of indoor rodeo (it started here). So, think of it as a pride address. That said, I agree with you (safly) that as its has developed to this point, the Cultural District may be better off without the agribusiness show infrastructure and that said infrastructure would probably be better placed back in its historic home (although the drive would take a bit longer for me for the one rodeo performance that I can tolerate each year).

Listen guys, San Antonio is a wonderful city (I have acres of family there) as is Fort Worth. I certainly do not begrudge Safly for having pride in his hometown any more than one should begrudge me for pride in mine. Safly has highlighted some shortcomings of Fort Worth (often with some lack of tact but validly nonetheless) and as much as I do not like it, the truth hurts sometimes. At the same time, San Antonio has some serious shortcomings as well. In so much as Safly thinks that certain shortcomings in Fort Worth would be better addressed as San Antonio has is open to debate. In such debate I have found myself both agreeing and disagreeing with Safly as well as other posters. On this debate though, at least with regard to Fort Worth’s stature relating to agricultural/livestock industries, I’m with cberen1. As to where a new arena should be built, see above.

#62 SurplusPopulation

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 03:46 PM

Yeah, I'm looking forward to meeting y'all. At very least the forum has been very entertaining lately. I sometimes get a little defensive (in case you can't tell).
Safly, I have given you a piece of my mind the last couple of days, but I mean no offense. I'm usually a reader not a poster, and you have added some personality to the forum. Now that I've spoken my mind I'll probably retreat to primarily reading for awhile.

#63 courtnie

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 06:52 PM

YEAH we all have made up now.....Surplus..dont just be a reader..thats no fun...we love everyones opinion..in the beginning when i first started posting safly and i had words but as you will see words are what makes this forum interesting...if we were all just readers and not posters then we would have nothing to read :lol:

#64 safly

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Posted 24 June 2005 - 02:28 PM

Vaquero or Caballero, makes no difference. One is more referenced to a GENTLEMAN, rather than a horse handler (thinking of A Man from Snowy River). Anyways, Both are well regarded in this town. I know of this because my grandfather (Mom's side) was a VERY popular/well respected one from N.Mexico before obtaining his citizenship. Could rope trick, bronc, calf rope, break away, jump, cut, and so forth with the best of em. More than what most MODERN day horseman achieve these days. SA shares it's boast of Arabians, Palominos, Painted, Appaloussa, and so forth. We have 2 Polo Fields to host events, a Thoroughbred racetrak, and 100's of micro-rodeo arenas within a 75 mile radius of the city limits. So to even consider FW as a Mecca (in the horse showing world) over SA for the state of Texas is ABSURD. I'll give you that on a N.Texas Regional level (Since you pull in from OK), but not state. Even smaller populated parts of Colorado, North Carolina, and California has more high dollar Equine clout than both regions combined. Though I will give educational/research props to Tarleton State's programs, rivaling that of UC Davis.


If any of ya'll would like to educate yoselves in rodeoin, then click here:Texas / Nat'l Rodeo Roots Plenty of insight about RODEO people from all over Texas.

BTW, we SAntonians despise any Hollywood reference. Example San Antonian born film director RRodrigues leaves SA for Austin. Lyle and Hahn on 99.5 KISS clowned him a sell out. Tragic.


You make some very interesting points Wise (OB1) Yossarrian. As for Charolais, plenty of em thrive in the Travis County and Kerr to Evant County areas. I see them signs all the time. When I meant REAL Livestockin, I should have used a differ in words. The hill country does boast some excellent mohair and goatmilk productions from sheep and goat. We do assume that many outside of SA do notice the pride in both the new and old Rodeo exhibitions. I've been to a couple of FW ones and I was personally not too impressed, especially with the lack of a headlining concert series (Brings in more folks). The Zipper rides will simply not do. Maybe the existing WRodgers has something to do w/ that. But in SA, we enjoy our version, yet it does not even warrant some new venue in a town of 1.3 million. For us it is a proud occassion, but there is so much to do beyond it. Most importantly, we understand that it is all about the showings from the FFA or 4-H students who have truly worked so hard and matured in the art and science of livestock showing. Hoping, that one day that their efforts would pay off in a scholarship. Trust me, I know plenty who have done it while schoolin at JHS. And I could not imagine in my teenage life how much time, dedication and money goes into showing, all while having to keep up with your grades.

I just want to make one thing clear, FW and SA have more similarities than one would ASSume. Both equally take pride in their civic duties, their communities, their heritage, and their futures. I for one am grateful to have experienced living the FW way and to have been born and reared in SA. The 2 cities are more of a match than one would think, trust me when I say this. I LOVE FW. Absolutely do. But I would hate to see FW try to compare itself to it's neighbor to the East or a far away friend to the South. FW's charm would probably be altered with the construction of this arena, and it may let down a lot of peoples hopes. FW has plenty of time to grow into whatever it will be. Like I have said before, FW does remind me of a SA back in the 80's and 90's, or ABA days. :lol: This arena should be an ambitious vision for later years. I'm sorry, but I think that it will not put FW on the map for any particular reason worth even $5million. This is one that should be handled with private funding.
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#65 SouthSideAllan2000

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Posted 24 June 2005 - 03:57 PM

Since we are talking about livestock, the other day I saw two kids, I'd say preteen, riding two young horses on Horne over in Como. No matter how many horses I've seen it's still a little strange but neat to see horses in an urban area same thing with seeing mounted Police, especially in the middle of residential neighborhoods.

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#66 tamtagon

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Posted 24 June 2005 - 11:34 PM

I would expect to find a rodeo in the Fort Worth Stockyards, not in the Cultural District.

#67 renamerusk

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 11:23 PM

As for the colliseum, the roads in and out of the stockyards may not support the volume of traffic that the planners anticipate.....

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Solution: I suggest that NE 23rd Street (Spur Freeway) be built and expanded which would connect the FWSY to the North Freeway (I-35W) for vehicular traffic and a light rail line between the FWSY and DTFW to accomodate foot traffic pre- and post-event time. NE 28th St from N. Main St to I-35W could have reversible traffic lanes pre- and post-arena event times; N. Main St could have reversible lanes too; divert local traffic to Ellis St. In other words, traffic patterns can be managed effectively with some creative planning.

The Fort Worth Stockyards can be better managed for traffic than the FWCD.

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#68 ghughes

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Posted 26 June 2005 - 08:44 PM

I suggest that NE 23rd Street (Spur Freeway) be built and expanded which would connect the FWSY to the North Freeway (I-35W)

Great idea, rename! I envision it like this:
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but those RR bridges wouldn't be small change.

#69 courtnie

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Posted 27 June 2005 - 10:57 AM

looks good to me........I think it should be in the Stockyards or near there...

#70 RD Milhollin

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 09:17 AM

It appears that horses are big business, and Texas is at the top of that business, and Fort Worth tops the state. Art Chapman lays down the facts according to the American Horse Council in today's S-T. I wonder if this article is timed to help influence public support for the proposed new arena? The facts as presented seem to support the need for a dedicated and specialized venue for horse shows. As concerns the location of the arena, since it would double as the location for the Stock Show Rodeo it would be difficult to build it anywhere except where the Stock Show is held. I personally see no problem with segregating the activities at the "Cultural District" into arts on the north (museums, theaters, galleries, bistros) and livestock-related activities to the south. The Northside connector Rename and GHughes envision would be a good idea regardless of where the arena is constructed. Here is the article:

Posted on Wed, Jun. 29, 2005



Riding high
Survey underlines horses' importance in Texas
Art Chapman
TEXAS AT LARGE

A new comprehensive study of the economic impact of horses in the United States shows Texas topping the list, and a look at the local calendar indicates that Fort Worth is the No. 1 equine city in the state.

The U.S. horse industry makes a nearly $40 billion direct economic impact and supports 1.4 million full-time jobs, the study shows.

When indirect costs -- groceries, gas, dry cleaning -- are figured in, the economic impact jumps to $102 billion.

Deloitte Consulting conducted the study, contacting 400,000 horse owners and other people involved in all segments of the horse industry. The results were released Tuesday.

From now until mid-August, Fort Worth will host three world-class horse events with a total of nearly 6,000 horses, as well as owners, riders, trainers and admirers.

The Fort Worth Convention & Visitors Bureau says a conservative estimate of the economic benefit to the city is $16 million, which includes direct spending only, no multipliers, no turning the dollars over and over.

The World Championship Paint Horse Show is going on now. The National Cutting Horse Association Summer Spectacular will follow, and in August, the American Quarter Horse Youth Association World Show will take place.

Other major yearly shows include the Appaloosa Horse Club World Championship Show, the NCHA Futurity and the NCHA Super Stakes. The Stock Show dominates the city calendar each January.

Fort Worth residents have seen horses' economic impact. The new study, commissioned by the American Horse Council, shows widespread impact nationwide.

Among its findings:

• There are approximately 9.2 million horses in the United States, with approximately 3.9 million involved in recreation and another 2.7 million participating in horse shows and other competitions. An additional 844,531 are involved in racing. The rest fall under the category of "other."

• There are an estimated 3,288,203 quarter horses, 1,291,807 thoroughbreds and 4,642,739 horses of other breeds in the United States.

• Of the $102 billion in economic impact reported, approximately $32 billion is from recreation, $28.8 billion from shows, $26.1 billion from racing and $14.7 billion from other areas.

• The horse industry pays approximately $1.9 billion in taxes yearly to all levels of government.

Texas leads the nation with an estimated 1 million horses. California is second with 700,000, Florida third with 500,000. Forty-five states have at least 20,000 horses.

California makes the most of its horse economy, generating $7 billion in economic impact. It's followed by Texas, $5.2 billion; Florida, $5.1 billion, and Kentucky, $3.5 billion.

"This study paints a portrait of an industry that operates in every corner of the country and contributes mightily to the American economy and culture," said Jay Hickey, president of the American Horse Council. "Never before has the impact of our industry been so dramatically demonstrated."

The American Horse Council represents the horse industry in Washington, D.C. It is supported by members from all facets of the industry, including racetracks, veterinarians, farriers and horsemen's associations.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ONLINE:www.horsecouncil.org
Art Chapman, (817) 390-7422 achapman@star-telegram.com





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

© 2005 Star-Telegram and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.dfw.com

#71 safly

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 10:18 AM

American Horse Council. Obviously they are the front runner cheerleaders for this, it only helps their cause and I would question Deloitte's numbers in regards to the industry impact. Will this new arena host hotel arrangements, and is the city willing to slap on a tourism tax? What is to stop other cities to build the like and host equine events. These followers of the hobby/business I'm sure will plan on going to a similiar event if hosted in Austin, SA or Houston. Then what happens to our market pull?

We have to ask why FW is at the top of this list for the state, is it geography, accomodations, weather? What is driving this so called market for equine?

Numbers look amazing, but consider the source. Nice "puff piece" though.
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#72 renamerusk

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 11:55 AM

....and I would question Deloitte's numbers ... I'm sure will plan on going to a similiar event if hosted in Austin, SA or Houston.

View Post

What reason, other than your propensity for fancible naysaying, do you have for questioning the numbers presented by Deloitte; or do you have for placing a sure bet on similar events in other Texas cities upstaging our events in Fort Worth?

Austin has government & music; San Antonio has military & a charming river; and Houston has oil & gas. Fort Worth is an agri-business town and reflects it. I hope that that is one of the many reason the agri-industry feels so at home when they are in our town.

Fort Worth has a outdated arena and needs to replace its that outdated arena with a modern facility. The debate is not, as you would have it, Fort Worth v/s Austin, SA, Houston or Dallas for that matter. The debate of this particular thread is WHERE IN FORT WORTH SHOULD A NEW ARENA BE BUILT!

It is a real possibility that should Fort Worth not build a new and modern facility, the city could very likely lose the events that it now hosts to cities such as Oklahoma City, Laramie or Denver.

Lets build this new arena and lets put it in the FWSY where it all began and now where it should be returned.

"Keep Fort Worth folksy!"

#73 renamerusk

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 12:43 PM

... I personally see no problem with segregating the activities at the "Cultural District" into arts on the north (museums, theaters, galleries, bistros) and livestock-related activities to the south. 

View Post


I respectfully disagree. Even though the museums and the coliseum have co- existed in relative harmony, a new arena in the FWCD, which could only be justifiably built by hosting not only every agricultural show that the city could secure and other events such as collegiate, musical, circuses, high school events would exact irrepairable damage to the grounds and the serenity of the FWCD. The traffic volume would be overwhelming and the debris and noise catastrophic.
The museums and attendance at the museums would surely suffer. I can not envision any effective way to segregate the FWCD into separate cultural and an arena regions.

With vision, the Will Rogers Memorial Complex can be used for both residential, shopping and the development of future art venues (townhomes with an existing riding arena for your horse, a "Art Galleria", a Southwest Smithsonian; a sculpture garden, a GSA archival depot); the possiblities are almost unlimited. Bound by the museums, the botanic gardens and the Trinity River nearby, WRMC redevelopment would command one of Fort Worth's premier addresses.

As it is sometimes said derisively, "There went the neighborhood when the Kimball and Carter Foundations moved in and built their museums"..lol

Lets build a new arena and lets put in the FWSY where it all began and should now be returned.

"Keep Fort Worth folksy!"

#74 cberen1

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 03:33 PM

safly, repeat these words to yourself until you become comfortable with them, then you can come out to the whole forum and admit it.

"I, safly, was wrong. I, safly, made a mistake and spoke in haste without verifying my story. I can now admit that Ft. Worth has a tremendous role in the horse industry. I can now admit that not everything in San Antonio, Austin and Dallas is better than Ft. Worth. [and here's the real challenge...]

I, safly, will try to post more verifiable facts because they are so much better than the crazed rhetoric I've posted in the past."

The first step is admiting you have a problem. ;)

#75 Yossarian

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Posted 29 June 2005 - 06:52 PM

safly, repeat these words to yourself until you become comfortable with them, then you can come out to the whole forum and admit it.


I wouldn't hold my breath.

#76 safly

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 12:43 AM

safly, repeat these words to yourself until you become comfortable with them, then you can come out to the whole forum and admit it.

"I, safly, was wrong.  I, safly,  made a mistake and spoke in haste without verifying my story.  I can now admit that Ft. Worth has a tremendous role in the horse industry.  I can now admit that not everything in San Antonio, Austin and Dallas is better than Ft. Worth.  [and here's the real challenge...]

I, safly, will try to post more verifiable facts because they are so much better than the crazed rhetoric I've posted in the past."

The first step is admiting you have a problem.  :huh:

View Post


I have offered facts and links. What facts were given to us by the "puff piece". Does FW's prominence in the States Equine industry reflect FW city limits or a regional base? FW's role in the Equine biz directly reflects it's proximity to "horse country" Oklahoma and other rural parts of W. Texas. San Antonio's could be on the map with D&T and AHC if they canvassed the C and S Texas areas too. But , I don't think that was the case here. I have no problem with setting an arena up, but city involvement is not in our best ineterest, IMHO. These numbers are not guaranteed, so it should be made possible by a private venture, only. Now if the powers that be want to hold Gala events and fundraisers with the FWCVB to make this happen, go right ahead. Increase tourism tax, go right ahead. It seems that we will not get a professional sports team anytime soon, so this may be FW's only hope to lure N.Texans and OK's to our neck o the woods.

I say get Bill Brewer and the AQHA (I know, founded in FW) to fund this "dream". It seems only fair that they should profit from what THEY invest in. He did mention the globalization efforts from a SA business in his '03 or '04 Annual Meeting Speech. So I think SA is on their map.

Ask yourselves this. What is the difference in The WRCDArena lobbyists way of getting a new arena funded, and (Hypo) JJ trying to get a new Cowboys stadium in FW? Not much from my end of the aisle. If they want this, they will pay for it and build it. Do you really think that the Assoc.(s) will allow themsleves to pack up and leave FW(aka Horse "Mecca") ? And if it does get built and paid for by private interests (no TIFS, and the likes of) that the city will still not be able to profit from lodging and T&E tax revenues. Come on now. The city is gonna get theirs. So why pay for it to happen when these Assoc.(s) OBVIOUSLY have the resources to manage otherwise?
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#77 safly

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 12:48 AM

What reason, other than your propensity for fancible naysaying,


I get it "NAY"saying. Hah.
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#78 safly

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 01:00 AM

....and I would question Deloitte's numbers ... I'm sure will plan on going to a similiar event if hosted in Austin, SA or Houston.

View Post

What reason, other than your propensity for fancible naysaying, do you have for questioning the numbers presented by Deloitte; or do you have for placing a sure bet on similar events in other Texas cities upstaging our events in Fort Worth?

Austin has government & music; San Antonio has military & a charming river; and Houston has oil & gas. Fort Worth is an agri-business town and reflects it. I hope that that is one of the many reason the agri-industry feels so at home when they are in our town.

Fort Worth has a outdated arena and needs to replace its that outdated arena with a modern facility. The debate is not, as you would have it, Fort Worth v/s Austin, SA, Houston or Dallas for that matter. The debate of this particular thread is WHERE IN FORT WORTH SHOULD A NEW ARENA BE BUILT!

It is a real possibility that should Fort Worth not build a new and modern facility, the city could very likely lose the events that it now hosts to cities such as Oklahoma City, Laramie or Denver.

Lets build this new arena and lets put it in the FWSY where it all began and now where it should be returned.

"Keep Fort Worth folksy!"

View Post



That being said. Build her in the FWSY. :huh:

Hope they will include Therapeutic Riding events too. There is a lot to learn and inform visitors with that style of riding.

I know Nolan Ryan is a rancher/rider. So if you somehow get him majorly involved with this, then I am ALL FOR IT. :D

G. Strait too. You just have to pull him out of SA for a while.

Hard for him to leave this SA Rodeo

Is FW gonna try to model its spending habits after this town project ? The SBC Center link
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#79 renamerusk

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 11:34 AM

....Hard for him to leave this SA Rodeo


Here is an interesting write up about Rodeo and Livestock Exhibitions held in Texas and is kind of, well I would say, very enlightening:

http://www.stla.org/...commentary.html


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#80 safly

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 01:56 PM

Well, with BIG events come a few BIG problems. As for communications gripe, could be that they are saying that the helpers speaks a different 1st language? Just a thought. All in all a big draw many have said, but I thik that showing Longhorns is a bore. Would rather see them out in the pastures, Hookin. But, that is just me.

I went to a Paint or Apaloosa horse (I wanna say) exhibition some 3 years ago. Remember that it was super cold and rainy/sleety. Did not see more than 50 or so visitors at the main ring event. Was a nice event, colorful, and intense with horse handling and talent, but the capacity did not give it justice. Could have been because it was a mid-week day or mid-day event. Anyways, I was happy to support it and offer a glimpse of horse handling/riding styles to a friend of the family's child I took. She absolutely loved it. Maybe that's what it's all about.

The Great Warrior Indian Chief head dresses were cool to see in the show too. Very educating piece they showed.
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#81 courtnie

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Posted 01 July 2005 - 01:35 PM

My daughter is crazy over the mini horses....she loves to go to the stock show and see them. I agree with Safly...I have been to several events and it just doent seem to be all that supported. They have plenty of vendors, horses, and everything you could ever need for your horse but not alot of spectators... Mostly the owners of the different ranches and farms....and people seeking to get out of the cold and snow.... I cant see the justification in getting a bigger arena...

#82 DrkLts

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 09:33 PM

I can't figure out why the people promoting this (City staff, Ed Bass, Stock Show people) don't paint a more ambitious vision for this venue.  Rather than just aim to host existing farm and ranch related events, and graduations, why don't they at least say that it could be expanded to host future NHL or NBA franchises?  Even if they doubt the short term feasibility, it is the kind of vision in which most cities of our size indulge (and something most cities our size already have - at least one franchise). 

I realize I beat the "build it larger" or "make it expandable" drum every time this subject comes up, however I think they are underselling this.  Also, in my opinion, many of those behind this appear to have become a bit overly consumed with the farm/ranch convention business here, to the exclusion of other types of tourism (e.g. arts tourism). 

This should be a multi-purpose venue that can easily host a first tier sports team should one become interested in Fort Worth.  Why build one with 6000 too few seats?? At least build the thing to make it easily expanded to 18-20,000 seats in case such an opportunity arises.

View Post


Yeah Kansas City building an arena that will be NBA/NHL ready by 2007 without any commitment from a sports franchise
Why can't FW have such a vision? :wub:

Eh, I have a feeling this will end up being your basic, average, utilitarian civic arena, so perhaps it's better that it's not NBA or NHL (assuming it exists by 2010 lol) ready. If we managed to get a team willing to give some money to put up an arena, they wouldn't need to use this one and it could be geared towards the stock show and events that would have otherwise been hosted by the Convention Center. And maybe the other arena could be architecturally groundbreaking... ^_^

View Post


They didn't even wait for a team to give up any money, they taking the risk having thier fingers crossed :D

#83 JBB

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 10:48 PM

Why can't FW have such a vision?  -_-

View Post


Ask the people of San Antonio how they feel about the "vision" behind building a multi-million dollar sports facility without a tenant. There's already been calls for its demolition.

#84 DrkLts

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 11:33 PM

So is this the arena that is suppose to replace the downtown saucer arena if it gets demolished? Last I remember that was suppose to be the final yet undetermined phase of the FWCC expansion. So how is this new one gonna be primarily for rodeo and livestock if the downtown one dissapears?

by the way, with the NBA's new NBDL Fort Worth Flyers, will that change the city's plan on demolishing the downtown arena?

#85 tamtagon

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 06:43 AM

New arena on horizon

By Anna M. Tinsley

Star-Telegram Staff Writer


FORT WORTH - ...on the edge of the Will Rogers Memorial Center complex, will fall idle next year as city officials pave the way for a long-awaited, multimillion-dollar arena ...
plans are in place to clear the site...as soon as summer 2006

By 2008 or 2009, work should be under way to ... build a parking lot to serve the complex.

A new arena could come after that, officials said.

A 1990 master plan for the Cultural District calls for construction of a $120 million, 12,000-seat arena and a $30 million livestock and equestrian building.

"If we don't start now, we may miss the opportunity," Bass wrote. "It takes time to set up the financing, get the people's approval, do the design and get it built.

"At this point, we would have to go flat out to open in 2010 or 2011."

For now, the city is focusing on making room for a new arena.


So, has Bass and/or city planners actually been clued into the brilliance of a Stockyard location for the $120 million, 12,000-seat arena and a $30 million livestock and equestrian building?

Is it even an option for the city?

#86 Sam Stone

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 08:33 AM

So is this the arena that is suppose to replace the downtown saucer arena if it gets demolished? Last I remember that was suppose to be the final yet undetermined phase of the FWCC expansion. So how is this new one gonna be primarily for rodeo and livestock if the downtown one dissapears?

by the way, with the NBA's new NBDL Fort Worth Flyers, will that change the city's plan on demolishing the downtown arena?

View Post


Officially, yes, the CD arena is supposed to be a bigger better replacement for the FWCC arena, which is supposed to be demolished after the new one is built. But I have a hard time seeing that happening. Not that they don't like to demolish things here, but really, the saucer is a handy usable space but won't be able to compete with the CD arena when it comes to horses. I'd put even money on them keeping the saucer anyway.

#87 safly

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 04:30 PM

Why can't FW have such a vision?  -_-

View Post


Ask the people of San Antonio how they feel about the "vision" behind building a multi-million dollar sports facility without a tenant. There's already been calls for its demolition.

View Post



Come again.

To what are u referring to?
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#88 JBB

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 05:05 PM

Alamodome. I read an article earlier this year about a city council candidate who was calling for demolition and was getting some support from citizens.

#89 safly

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 10:23 PM

Well, yes that did come up. But since the last Spurs NBA championship celebration took place there (due to it's size). It was then discovered that this structure for now is quite necessary, and here to stay. This week , the Alamodome played host to about 8 different HS rivalry football matchups, even a few out of town schools too. The SA Exp News was the machine behind the season opening hype.

The former Mayor Ed Garza is trying to lure an expansion MLS franchise to SA. Would make PERFECT sense to participate the Alamodome facilities for this purpose. This would surely attract tens of thousands of Futbol fans from across the border and all of S. Texas willing to partake and spend, spend, spend. I just hope that they would open up that rooftop. This will take money and some commiting by the new mayor to tout the Alamodomes existence in SA's future.

Anyways, I tried to grab an archive from the SA Express. No such luck since you have to PAY and REG. now a days. They suck for that! To get to the point. SA has 20 million visitors a year, 8 million are "leisure" 1 or 2 day visitors, and it amasses about $7 billion a year industry for the city.

Wait a minute, lets see if this works. Here it is

If you guys want to make this happen for FW, then print it and send to your district rep. You CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. -_-
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#90 redhead

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Posted 28 August 2005 - 09:45 AM

Sam, I think the saucer removal is a forgone conclusion. If you look at the plan
that the city had created for the re-do of 9th and Hyde Park, it assumes the saucer is gone---a condition I suppose the city advised the architectural firm. (Can't remember the firm's name---not GT, a big firm out of Dallas.)

As for hoping the new arena goes toward the SY, I think it's too far along for that. There have been some water and sewer projects on the council agenda in the past year that appear to be the infrastructure for something quite large. In addition, the new throughoufare plan realigns Harley to connect straight accross and feed Currie, Foch and swing around to the east of So7 and connect to 7th. All of that supports the development of the arena immediately south of WR in the present parking lots. That also gives immediate freeway access from both Montgomery as well as University.

#91 Urbndwlr

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Posted 08 September 2005 - 12:33 AM

Why not build an arena now that serves the equestrian and civic needs of the city (I suppose large enough for NCAA b-ball), and eventually, when we actually have a major leauge team, we could build another, larger, more multi-purpose arena. Of course, if someone wants to pay for one sooner rather than later, I'd have no objection. The chances of that are slim though...

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Why are you so bearish?

#92 Urbndwlr

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Posted 08 September 2005 - 12:44 AM

This week , the Alamodome played host to about 8 different HS rivalry football matchups, even a few out of town schools too.  The SA Exp News was the machine behind the season opening hype.

The former Mayor Ed Garza is trying to lure an expansion MLS franchise to SA. Would make PERFECT sense to participate the Alamodome facilities for this purpose. This would surely attract tens of thousands of Futbol fans from across the border and all of S. Texas willing to partake and spend, spend, spend. I just hope that they would open up that rooftop. This will take money and some commiting by the new mayor to tout the Alamodomes existence in SA's future.

Wait a minute, lets see if this works. Here it is

If you guys want to make this happen for FW, then print it and send to your district rep. You CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. :D

View Post


Good point, SA is perfect for MLS, and it is the week in and week out crowds that introduce so many people to Fort Worth. With the relative lack of pub we get compared w/ other cities of our size in the national media, I welcome virtually any event that will introduce people to Fort Worth, getting them to stay and support our cultural institutions, our restaurants, and our other local businesses.
This is how tourism really pays off - when the money actually makes it into Fort Wortians' hands (not simply to hotel tax revenue or to gas stations on I-30) but actually making one or two more good local restauranteurs able to succeed b/c of the increased traffic.

Ask any local restauranteur and they'll likely tell you that the rodeo, Colonial weekends, and TCU home games result in serious boosts in customer traffic that really thier business. Those events are not massive in scale. Consider the impact of a regional NCAA basketball tournament game, or, to a lesser extent, a pro tennis event.

#93 safly

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Posted 08 September 2005 - 01:51 AM

Heck, Saints playing in SA! Whew weeh.
I put an official CURSE on Paul Tagliabue for not pushing them Saints to move into SA and use the Alamodome as a permanent Home game scenario. Makes absolute PERFECT sense to play in SA. Even with the best that SA has to offer in an incentives package for Mr. Benson. Mr. T wanted them in NY for the Saints first "home game" scenario. What a joke Mr. T is, IMHO I believe he wants to use the Katrina devestation in NOLA as an attention getter in the most influential media market, NYC. This is sure to be the most anticipated and watched NFL game of the season, in NYC. Chump!

What do ya'll think about that?

How bout them SA SAINTS?

They can even allow some of the more capable refugees to work in the services industry at the Alamodome. Even attend the games for FREE. Fill er up!
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#94 gdvanc

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 05:03 PM

Fort Worth Weekly article:

Horse-Drawn Plans for Montgomery

#95 tamtagon

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 06:01 PM

^cool

#96 Thurman52

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 07:17 AM

Very cool.. I hate to see a corridor like that destroyed, but the long term value is too great!

The economic impact of horse and other shows at the complex make this project A+ in my book!

An updated musesum and a new high end hotel would place the finishing touches on this area..

I hope this story is the catalyst to get this project moving!

#97 cjyoung

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 10:58 AM

QUOTE(safly @ Sep 8 2005, 02:51 AM) View Post

Heck, Saints playing in SA! Whew weeh.
I put an official CURSE on Paul Tagliabue for not pushing them Saints to move into SA and use the Alamodome as a permanent Home game scenario. Makes absolute PERFECT sense to play in SA. Even with the best that SA has to offer in an incentives package for Mr. Benson. Mr. T wanted them in NY for the Saints first "home game" scenario. What a joke Mr. T is, IMHO I believe he wants to use the Katrina devestation in NOLA as an attention getter in the most influential media market, NYC. This is sure to be the most anticipated and watched NFL game of the season, in NYC. Chump!

What do ya'll think about that?

How bout them SA SAINTS?

They can even allow some of the more capable refugees to work in the services industry at the Alamodome. Even attend the games for FREE. Fill er up!


I like the sound of the San Antonio Saints!

I get so tired the big market/small market aurguments. Why doesn't big, giant, humongous Los Angeles have an NFL franchise? Why did Al Davis move back to Oakland and compete in the same market as the SF 49ers?

Unfortunately, the Saints will probably move on to LA after the 2006-2007 season.

#98 safly

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 03:58 PM

HOLA! San Antonio "Saints".

HELLO! Saint Anthony "Saints". ( for the bi-lingual impaired)

Makes perfect sense to me.

How did New Orleans get that franchise name anyways? Saints GO Marching In ?

I understand the New Orleans JAZZ and Minnesota Lakers, but NO Saints. dry.gif
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#99 ghughes

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 04:13 PM

From the Saints' website: The team is named after the Dixieland classic and team fight song, “When the Saints Go Marchin’ In.”

To me the goofy one is the Utah Jazz!

#100 renamerusk

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 12:07 PM

Awesome...this will be an amazing project; one which will be nationally renowned. I an simply blown away with the conceptualization.

My only regret is that the Fort Worth Stockyards (FWSY) may be left behind in all of this. I hope that something as fantastic as the Cultural District development is undertaken to further continue the vibrancy and charm of the FWSY. I had hoped that a new arena for the FWSY would become such a catalyst; it seems such a perfect scenario for that part of town.

What, other than a new arena, can become the long awaited catalyst for the FWSY?

“Keep Fort Worth folksy!”





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Cultural District, New Arena

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