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"5-4-1" Light Rail Plan: REVISION

Rail Urban Planning Subway LRT Streetcar

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#1 Jeriat

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 02:50 PM

Ok... just my crazy idea for light rail in the this city. Or, if it has already been thrown out, just ignore it, but here it goes: 

Have 5 separate, privately funded lines (actually 4, but you'll see what I'm talking about when you continue to read), all coming together on two tracks lining up with the ITC. The starter lines work like this:

 

 

 

KEY

LOCATION: Name of Line

  • Miles & End of Line from the ITC 
  • Type of Train
  • Projected Stops 
  • Tracks used
  • Right-of-way
  • Connectivity with other Rail

- NORTH: Stockyards/Panther Island Line 

  • 3 Miles, From ITC to: Stockyards
  • Modern Streetcar or (more radical idea) Subway in form of a Modern Streetcar  
  • Modern Streetcar opt.: ITC, The Commerce Building, TCC East, 2 stops on Panther Island, El Mercado, Main & Exchange, Main & 26th (End of line, 8 stops) / Subway opt: ITC, Barnes & Noble site, Paddock Park, 2 stops on Panther Island, Central Ave. & Calhoun, Underground Stockyards Station (End of Line, 7 Stops)
  • Modern Streetcar opt: 2 way & one way / Subway opt: 2 way throughout 
  • Modern Streetcar opt: Shared road lanes / Subway opt: Underground & shared road lanes
  • Connects to: TRE (ITC) and Grapevine Vintage Railway (Stockyards... Subway option only)

 

- EAST: E-Line

 

  • 4 Miles, From ITC to: Texas Wesleyan 
  • Modern Streetcar
  • ITC, future Near Eastside Urban Village, Beach & Ludelle (possible connection to a future commuter rail?), Polytech High, Texas Wesleyan on Rosedale (End of line, 5 stops)
  • 2 way 
  • Shared road lanes
  • Connects to: TRE (ITC), Possible line for Commuter Rail in the future 

 

- SOUTH: Southsider's Line

 

  • 5½ Miles, From ITC to: La Gran Plaza  
  • Modern Streetcar
  • ITC, Main & Vickery, 2 stops on Main between Vickery and Rosedale, Hemphill & Magnolia, Hemphill & Powell,  Hemphill & Berry, Hemphill & Bolt, La Gran Plaza transfer station (End of line, 9 stops) 
  • 2 way 
  • Both shared road lanes and exclusive rail
  • Connects to: TRE (ITC) 

 

- WEST: W-Line

 

  • 4 Miles, From ITC to: Camp Bowie & Hulen   
  • LRT
  • ITC, Lancaster/T&P, Lancaster & Summit, Farrington Field, WRMC, 3 stops on Camp Bowie between Montgomery and Hulen (End of section, 7 stops) 
  • 2 way 
  • Exclusive rail
  • Connects to: TRE (ITC) 

 

- S.W.F.W.W-Line

 

  • 5 Miles, From Berry St. TEX Rail station to: Camp Bowie & Hulen   
  • LRT
  • Berry St. TEX Rail station, GrandMarc/TCU, Berry & Stadium Dr., Lupton Stadium, Hartwood Park, Hulen & Gleenwood, Hulen & Stonegate, Hulen & Vickery, H.E.B. Marketplace, Camp Bowie & Hulen  (End of section, 10 stops) 
  • 2 way /w one way lines (on Hulen from Camp Bowie to Vickery and on Berry from University to TEX Rail station) 
  • Exclusive rail
  • Connects to: TEX Rail 

 

 

 

 It's a looooooong shot, but worth the thought, I believe.

I'll make some visuals and maps later. Some of which will involve what I would want to do with the ITC. It includes a project that Austin did not too long ago...  


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#2 JBB

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 04:49 PM

Dude, that is great! Lots of fun ideas for sure. Just a few thoughts I have on first glance:

North - I say forgo the subway option because it will be crazy expensive. Also, instead of terminating at 26th, which is still really close to Exchange, why not take it 2 more blocks north to 28th? Lots of development at that corner and it puts it closer to the neighborhood between 28th and Meacham Field.

West - Instead of seperate stops for Farrington and WRMC, consolidate that into one stop on the west side of University and add a stop near Camp Bowie and Montgomery to service UNTHSC.

SW - I like the idea of this one, but it is probably a pipe dream. That's cutting through some pretty high end residential areas and there's probably not a lot of right-of-way to be had for an exclusive line. And crossing over the UP yard probably puts the cost of this one through the stratosphere. I don't remember what it cost the NTTA, but it was far from cheap.

Can't wait to see some maps. This is awesome.

#3 Jeriat

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:54 PM

Really, these are all pipe dreams, unless there really are a few millionaires or billionaires or groups who want to get in on this. I might change up the SWFW line, but I do feel that the TCU area should have some kind of light rail attached. 

 

As for the ITC and Austin's project I was talking about, while I was walking around the ITC yesterday, I was trying to figure out the best location for the rail lines at the ITC, but I just couldn't. It would seem too cluttered with the buses and drop-offs. I didn't know where to place them, but then it hit me...

.

9th1.jpg

 

9th3.png

 

I remembered this project from forum member Austin55 that filled in some of those lots in east downtown. Then I thought, why not have the rails on the other side of the street and use two of those blocks as an extension of the ITC? It's another option (that's better than just having surface lots) and even opens it up for more taxi/drop-off space on 8th and 9th Street. 

 

 

 

 


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#4 Austin55

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 03:54 AM

I definitely want to see a map. having trouble visualizing it. 



#5 Doohickie

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:11 AM

I personally would add a leg from La Gran Plaza to Rosemont/SW Baptist Seminary area - an extra mile and a half, right down Seminary, suggest stops at 6th Ave. and at the Main entrance to the Seminary.
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#6 Jeriat

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:31 PM

I'll post the maps tomorrow. 

 

But as for what I was originally saying for the ITC, the best thing would be to have an extension across the street. 

 

(Tracks are not to scale... obviously)

 

10275533_10202914424055054_3404025300501

 

 

P.S., I changed the "W-Line", with both west and southwest lines. I also thought of the SW Baptist Seminary area, but may just use that as a future extension. 


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#7 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:04 PM

I don't understand your plan of having light rail lines tearing up Jones. Streetcars operate more like busses than light rail, and the line to/from La Gran plaza could (and should) use the existing TRE lines.


- Dylan


#8 Jeriat

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:40 PM

I don't understand your plan of having light rail lines tearing up Jones. Streetcars operate more like busses than light rail, and the line to/from La Gran plaza could (and should) use the existing TRE lines.

 

Well they're not all streetcars. But the reason for having rail lines at Jones is because (1) that's where the ITC is and (2) Jones is barely used compared to the other streets in downtown. 


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#9 renamerusk

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 10:46 PM

....La Gran plaza could (and should) use the existing TRE lines.

 

 To be clear, there is no existing  TRE line to serve La Gran Plaza.



#10 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 12:09 AM

I am well aware that the TRE doesn't go to La Gran Plaza. I was talking about the TRE lines at the ITC.

 

Perhaps I should have specified that Jeriat's proposed line should end at the existing TRE platform, not Jones Street.

 

I can understand a one way streetcar line down Jones, but not a two-way light rail line that closes the street.


- Dylan


#11 Jeriat

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 12:21 AM

I am well aware that the TRE doesn't go to La Gran Plaza. I was talking about the TRE lines at the ITC.

 

Perhaps I should have specified that Jeriat's proposed line should end at the existing TRE platform, not Jones Street.

 

I can understand a one way streetcar line down Jones, but not a two-way light rail line that closes the street.

 

Well, it could be one rail line instead of two, but like I said, Jones isn't exactly the busiest street in downtown. As for the TRE line you're talking about, that doesn't really work considering those rails go through the T&P station and it just seems even more complicated. I also don't know if those overhead wires would get in the way. 

 

Also, having an extension to the ITC on the other side of Jones also helps fill in those surface lots. Not by too much, but it's still better than just another asphalt covered parking lot.


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#12 djold1

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 10:01 AM

It would be good if we could see a track plan..  please..


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#13 renamerusk

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 04:20 PM

Ok... just my crazy idea for light rail in the this city....all coming together on two tracks lining up with the ITC.

 

- NORTH: Stockyards/Panther Island Line   - EAST: E-Line  - SOUTH: Southsider- Line - WEST: W-Line
 

 

 As this is speculation, here is my take.

 

Too much emphasis is placed on coming together at the ITC.  For one, I think that the ITC is better for intercity/commuter transportation; and is not the better option for transit within the city.  I would develop two additional transit terminals for downtown; one being at the former M&O tunnel for the North and West Lines; and the second being at the junction of Lancaster Avenue and Jennings Street for the South and East Lines.

 

The two new terminals offer this one important advantage: a preexisting unobstructed route into downtown that avoids any enormous disruption to present day or post development traffic flow within the CBD.

 

Reopen the M&O tunnel for streetcars traveling (North) and (West) with a transfer connection point at Panther Island via the FWRR corridor to the Stockyards or to CD/WR area.  Develop a surface/underground terminal using the Jennings Street underpass for streetcars traveling (South) to the City Maintenance facility at Felix via the Hemphill Street corridor; and for streetcars traveling (East) to Handley via the Lancaster Avenue/US180 corridor.   Connect the three downtown terminals (ITC, M&O, Jennings) with a motorized  shuttle bus.



#14 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 04:52 PM

@renamerusk, I prefer the idea of everything together at the ITC. That way, commuter rail lines can feed into the proposed streetcar system.

 

***************

 

 

Well, it could be one rail line instead of two, but like I said, Jones isn't exactly the busiest street in downtown. As for the TRE line you're talking about, that doesn't really work considering those rails go through the T&P station and it just seems even more complicated. I also don't know if those overhead wires would get in the way. 

 

Also, having an extension to the ITC on the other side of Jones also helps fill in those surface lots. Not by too much, but it's still better than just another asphalt covered parking lot.

 

 

So that would be a streetcar line? Okay, that's better than what I thought you had in mind.

 

As far as the TRE line, there are existing lines that branch from the ITC that head south. Better option than closing Jones for a light rail line IMO.


- Dylan


#15 Jeriat

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 05:45 PM

It would be good if we could see a track plan..  please..


Tonight...

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#16 Jeriat

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 05:46 PM

@renamerusk, I prefer the idea of everything together at the ITC. That way, commuter rail lines can feed into the proposed streetcar system.
 
***************
 


 
Well, it could be one rail line instead of two, but like I said, Jones isn't exactly the busiest street in downtown. As for the TRE line you're talking about, that doesn't really work considering those rails go through the T&P station and it just seems even more complicated. I also don't know if those overhead wires would get in the way. 
 
Also, having an extension to the ITC on the other side of Jones also helps fill in those surface lots. Not by too much, but it's still better than just another asphalt covered parking lot.
 

 
So that would be a streetcar line? Okay, that's better than what I thought you had in mind.
 
As far as the TRE line, there are existing lines that branch from the ITC that head south. Better option than closing Jones for a light rail line IMO.

Not closing Jones at all. Just using one lane.

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#17 renamerusk

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 06:01 PM

@renamerusk, I prefer the idea of everything together at the ITC. That way, commuter rail lines can feed into the proposed streetcar system.

 

***************

As far as the TRE line, there are existing lines that branch from the ITC that head south. Better option than closing Jones for a light rail line IMO.

 

I understand that the ITC is your preference, but other then as a commuter terminal, it is not an effective terminal for a 7-day city wide street car system, so what are its other advantage(s)?

 

Where are there lines heading south from the ITC owned by any regional transportation authority?

 

 


 



 .



#18 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 06:24 PM

Why would it not be an effective terminal for a streetcar system?


- Dylan


#19 renamerusk

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 08:41 PM

Why would it not be an effective terminal for a streetcar system?

 

I see that where the ITC is positioned and then coupled with a strategy that would make it the only downtown terminal for a city wide rail transit system would cause gigantic headaches for vehicular traffic in the CBD.  Implementing this approach would impeded traffic at multiple grade crossings within downtown.  If such a strategy is pursued, it would require a more money to implement than a strategy of multiple terminals along the edge of downtown.

 

So, maybe ineffective is poor choice of words.   Instead, it is better to say that a speculative city wide rail transit system with a strategy that makes the ITC the nexus highly problematic and is a rather unnecessary situation when there are better alternatives.



#20 Jeriat

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 11:27 PM

"The SPI-Line" (Stockyards/Panther Island)

 

10369723_10202920656570863_8444831121023

 

I decided to stretch out the line a little more to reach that parking lot on NW 28th Street. It was suggested, and seemed like a better choice. The emblem you see above is the logo for the line. If you can probably tell, I was going to use this for a soccer team concept, but the Fort Worth Vaqueros beat me to it. The logo basically shows the two symbols, the sleeping panther and Molly the Longhorn, represent the entire city, but it's much more relevant for this particular area. The colors are also reminiscent of the old flag.   

Here's the map for the streetcar line. I'll do the subway line tomorrow.... my computer is acting up a bit and plus I'm very tired from today. See ya in the morning... 

 

10246310_10202921546193103_8543133388966


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#21 renamerusk

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:30 AM

Ok... just my crazy idea for light rail in the this city....... coming together on two tracks lining up with the ITC.

 

 

The one line that would be more practical lining up with the ITC than any other is a line connecting Oakhurst/Riverside to downtown that terminated at the ITC.   A line for that connection would be easily implemented via the 4th Street corridor across the river to Sylvania Avenue and then turning north to serve the neighborhoods in the near northeast of Fort Worth.

 

If there is one critical lesson to be taken from DART is its flawed strategy of squeezing all of its routes along one corridor.  The result of this strategy has been congestion, train backups and traffic flow disruption in the core of downtown Dallas.

 

My view is that Downtown Fort Worth is the destination point more so than the ITC. 



#22 Jeriat

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 04:35 PM


Ok... just my crazy idea for light rail in the this city....... coming together on two tracks lining up with the ITC.
 

 
 
If there is one critical lesson to be taken from DART is its flawed strategy of squeezing all of its routes along one corridor.  The result of this strategy has been congestion, train backups and traffic flow disruption in the core of downtown Dallas.
 
My view is that Downtown Fort Worth is the destination point more so than the ITC. 

Hmm... I may have to address that soon. But keep in mind, to many people who come to Fort Worth by train or Greyhound, the ITC is THE gateway to downtown, which is why I proposed it.

But I may think of this a little later. I'll post the next few lines soon enough.

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#23 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 04:45 PM

Also, the TRE feeds into the ITC, and any future commuter lines will do the same. It would be awkward for someone to get off of a commuter train, then get on a shuttle before they can board a streetcar in western or northern downtown. And if you are going to have a shuttle, why not just make the shuttle route part of the streetcar line?


- Dylan


#24 Jeriat

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 06:50 PM

Also, the TRE feeds into the ITC, and any future commuter lines will do the same. It would be awkward for someone to get off of a commuter train, then get on a shuttle before they can board a streetcar in western or northern downtown. And if you are going to have a shuttle, why not just make the shuttle route part of the streetcar line?

 

A shuttle? 

Who said anything about a shuttle? 


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#25 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 07:44 PM

Renamerusk, who is suggesting that streetcars should not converge at the ITC. How are people supposed to get from a commuter line at the ITC to a streetcar that begins in northern or western downtown? Walking is an option, but many will choose to drive instead or not go at all.


- Dylan


#26 Jeriat

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 08:14 PM

"The SPI-Line"  

   Subway Option

 

 

10313446_10202927056850866_7884499287816

 

More and more, I'm thinking this isn't a good idea.

 

But the reason why I suggested a subway for this line was to stay off of Main Street and those tracks north of what will form Panther Island. I wish we kept the Tandy Center subway. Even though it still would have been expensive, we would at least have a base to work off of. Oh well... 

The "E-Line" is next. 


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#27 renamerusk

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:00 PM

Renamerusk, who is suggesting that streetcars should not converge at the ITC. How are people supposed to get from a commuter line at the ITC to a streetcar that begins in northern or western downtown? Walking is an option, but many will choose to drive instead or not go at all.

 

Seriously.  Downtown is possibly the most walkable area of Fort Worth filled with shops, dining, parks ,etc.   It is a great place for a stroll.



#28 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:55 PM

I agree, but people who are not familiar with downtown are not going to want to walk through downtown to get from one train to another.

 

Also, your idea assumes the weather will always be perfect.


- Dylan


#29 renamerusk

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 03:10 PM

I agree, but people who are not familiar with downtown are not going to want to walk through downtown to get from one train to another....Also, your idea assumes the weather will always be perfect.

 

Much of your reasoning is faulty.  What is the probability that residents of Fort Worth are not or would not be familiar with downtown?  Not high I suspect.

 

A plausible assumption is that people do not like to walk in unsafe or blighted areas, but neither are these the case when applied to downtown in general.  Six Flags may be analogous and demonstrates the capacity of people to walk when there is something interesting to experience in a safe and clean area. There is ample evident everyday and most evenings of pedestrian traffic within downtown who partake in walking because downtown has something interesting to offer and is perceived to be a place of comfortable surroundings.  And besides, commuters walk to and from the ITC;  so why are people not going to want to walk downtown to either the ITC or other transit terminals?

 

A terminal is the end to a mode of transit; it is not necessarily a connecting point.  If, as I view downtown to be a destination point instead of a transfer point, then that view makes the ITC less an important  factor to a city wide transit system to everyone but to a commuter from an outlying suburb.

 

The comment about the weather is a weak one, unless explained further.



#30 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 05:52 PM

 

I agree, but people who are not familiar with downtown are not going to want to walk through downtown to get from one train to another....Also, your idea assumes the weather will always be perfect.

 

Much of your reasoning is faulty.  What is the probability that residents of Fort Worth are not or would not be familiar with downtown?  Not high I suspect.

 

A plausible assumption is that people do not like to walk in unsafe or blighted areas, but neither are these the case when applied to downtown in general.  Six Flags may be analogous and demonstrates the capacity of people to walk when there is something interesting to experience in a safe and clean area. There is ample evident everyday and most evenings of pedestrian traffic within downtown who partake in walking because downtown has something interesting to offer and is perceived to be a place of comfortable surroundings.  And besides, commuters walk to and from the ITC;  so why are people not going to want to walk downtown to either the ITC or other transit terminals?

 

A terminal is the end to a mode of transit; it is not necessarily a connecting point.  If, as I view downtown to be a destination point instead of a transfer point, then that view makes the ITC less an important  factor to a city wide transit system to everyone but to a commuter from an outlying suburb.

 

The comment about the weather is a weak one, unless explained further.

 

 

Fort Worth residents are going to be the only people using the system?

Nobody will be coming in from out of town for the stockyards or cultural district?

People are going to want to walk through downtown when downtown is not their destination?

People are going to want to walk through downtown when it is raining?

 

Keep in mind that streetcars are supposed to be friendly for tourists as well as residents. Also, walking from one station to another will add to the travel time.


- Dylan


#31 Jeriat

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 11:14 PM

"EaLine"  

 

10362838_10202934049585680_2332720241972

 

I made this line to reach the most important parts of the near eastern side, where most people who needed the line would be within reach of it. However, I probably could have gone two or even three different ways here... 

 

 

10257958_10202941916782355_6612546829209

 

 

POSSIBLE EXPANSION:

Unlike the SPI-Line, I would expand the EaLine even further. 

- Continuing from TWU on Rosedale, then north Oakland, then left on E 1st Street, past Gateway Park (station)

 OR

- Continuing from TWU on Rosedale to Miller, headed south towards E. Berry, then left on E. Berry to the new Renaissance  Plaza (station)

 

POSSIBLE SPLITS  

 

- At Beach, north up to 377, then northeast to Glenview, then right towards NorthEast Mall. Continuing straight to Precinct Line, turning north towards Grapevine Highway (377) then looping back southwest to downtown. 


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#32 Jeriat

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 10:54 PM

"Southsider's"

10341539_10202953899641919_6936238296734

 

 

The purpose of this line was not only to get people to and from downtown to and from the Near Southside, but to stretch down Hemphill, which is in much needed re-development as well. A streetcar line won't be everything, but it could help. 
The logo and colors represent the the southside, from the brick pattern (sidewalks) to the similar shape based on some of the architecture in the area.

 

10322817_10202954855105805_9164922350992

 

 

POSSIBLE EXPANSION:

- None.

 

POSSIBLE SPLITS  

 

- At Seminary, going west to Southwestern Baptist Seminary

- At Allen,hooking up to JPS 

- Continuing down Rosedale to the other hospitals


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#33 Jeriat

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 09:23 PM

"W-Line" "The Dubya". 

 

10352407_10202973844300523_1194526806533

 

This is an LRT line. I made it this way because I felt that the western side of town is a little too spread out (not like the stretch between 820 to Weatherford, but you know what I mean) to go the modern streetcar route. Camp Bowie would be the main road used since there's room to separate itself from the automobiles. Almost like the old days... 

I feel it would be best to split this line up into 2 phases because of the kind of train being used and construction taking a bit longer. There could be some TOD involved with this line. I'd say the Summit stop and Applied Learning Academy (especially) would be perfect to build up. 

 

Obviously, I changed my original plan for this line. But felt it was necessary. 

10169455_10202973844980540_6814321453725

 


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#34 renamerusk

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 05:40 PM

Seems as if a consensus has been reached about commuter patterns into and out of downtown suggesting the most important commuting group comes and goes from and to the NE and thus would make the ITC the logical CBD nexus for any city wide transit network, but

 

(1) is the bulk of commuting between CBD/NE?

(2) is future long term growth in downtown limited to the east sector of the CBD?

(3) does the ITC without a doubt possess infrastructural advantages over other sectors within the  CBD?

 

Reasserting my take, the CBD is the destination for which the ITC can be but one of a multiple gateways into and out of reaching that destination.



#35 urbancowboy

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 07:55 PM

I think the west side line should go to Ridgmar and maybe a spur to Hulen Mall via TCU. Frankly any downtown alignments should be below grade as our block lengths are short and if we ever wanted to run longer trains (more cars) they would block intersection. Also, a street car line serving Samuels Ave, Hillside, and the Belknap corridor to NE Mall and TCC or the NRH Tex Rail Station might be great. I think we might even get Haltom City and Hurst to join the T.

#36 Jeriat

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 08:21 PM

 

(1) is the bulk of commuting between CBD/NE?

(2) is future long term growth in downtown limited to the east sector of the CBD?

(3) does the ITC without a doubt possess infrastructural advantages over other sectors within the  CBD?

 

Reasserting my take, the CBD is the destination for which the ITC can be but one of a multiple gateways into and out of reaching that destination.

 

1. Considering that the ITC is the hub of transportation, I'd say so. 

 

2. No, but we all know that the east side of downtown is in DESPERATE need of development. Transportation can help... 

 

3. ... that one, I can't really answer. I just see it as the main point of where everyone enters downtown. After all, that's what it was built for. 


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#37 Jeriat

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 08:22 PM

I think the west side line should go to Ridgmar and maybe a spur to Hulen via TCU. Frankly the any downtown alignments should be below grade.

 

Currently working on that one. I have one more line to go...


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#38 renamerusk

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 11:22 PM

 

1. Considering that the ITC is the hub of transportation, I'd say so. 

 

2. No, but we all know that the east side of downtown is in DESPERATE need of development. Transportation can help... 

 

3. ... that one, I can't really answer. I just see it as the main point of where everyone enters downtown. After all, that's what it was built for.

 

1. Yes, the ITC can be thought of as "the" hub of transportation today, but it is not ordained to continue to play that role forever.  Planners will have to evaluate the efficacy of at-grade transit lines crisscrossing the CBD and shoehorning transit traffic alone a singular corridor and presents too many complications for planners not to consider additional hubs for downtown unless a subway is to be built.

 

2. Yes, the east side of downtown is in desperate need of development, but is that also equally the case for the south and west sides of downtown; and could transit hubs there be catalysts for development in these areas and if that happens be just as equally desirable?

 

3. I think a more defensible answer is that the ITC is "where many enter downtown" instead of "where everyone enters downtown".

 

As for what the ITC was built for is still up for debate and should not necessarily be considered definitive in future plans.   ITC is a hub for inter-city transportation with local connection to the city's bus network.

 

It would seem reasonable to consider additional transit hubs within downtown; an idea that DART has implemented in downtown Dallas both decentralize connections and to dilute transit gridlock there.  A model like that makes sense if one envisions the transit network evolving into more robust system in the future.



#39 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 11:27 PM

Seems as if a consensus has been reached about commuter patterns into and out of downtown suggesting the most important commuting group comes and goes from and to the NE and thus would make the ITC the logical CBD nexus for any city wide transit network, but

 

(1) is the bulk of commuting between CBD/NE?

(2) is future long term growth in downtown limited to the east sector of the CBD?

(3) does the ITC without a doubt possess infrastructural advantages over other sectors within the  CBD?

 

Reasserting my take, the CBD is the destination for which the ITC can be but one of a multiple gateways into and out of reaching that destination.

 

1) You mean northeastern suburbs? My guess is that the majority of people commute from the northeast/east since those areas are where most Tarrant county residents live. However, the ITC is designed to handle commuter lines from all directions.

 

2) As in east of Henderson? Probably, since eastern downtown is more pedestrian friendly.

 

3) Without a doubt. Most activity downtown is in eastern downtown.

 

The reason our plans revolve around the ITC is because it serves as a hub where people can transfer from one form of transit (or one line) to another. Otherwise, it would be difficult for people to transfer between one line to another.


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#40 RD Milhollin

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 11:39 PM

I have long felt that the city should work to convince the railroads to combine freight operations onto the set of tracks downtown closest to I-13W, freeing up the other tracks closest to Jones Street for passenger service. These tracks seem largely unused, and several sets have been apparently in disuse and even partially dismantled for several years now. This corridor could be used for expanded commuter rail, and eventually HSR connecting to San Antonio to the south and Oklahoma City and Tulsa (or even Chicago) northward. The consolidated freight lines would be easier to direct through the current and even the proposed future sunken/elevated Tower 55 approaches, and would help justify public expense in contributing to that project. Dedicated passenger rails are going to be needed to make expanded commuter rail work and modern HSR work in this area. 

 

Another comment: Given the ideas for light rail being discussed it would seem to become apparent that building apartments or whatever on the free ROW on the north side of Lancaster Avenue downtown would be a mistake. This is an obvious corridor for LR or streetcars moving people east - west across town, without negatively affecting traffic on Lancaster.



#41 djold1

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 04:03 PM

Another comment: Given the ideas for light rail being discussed it would seem to become apparent that building apartments or whatever on the free ROW on the north side of Lancaster Avenue downtown would be a mistake. This is an obvious corridor for LR or streetcars moving people east - west across town, without negatively affecting traffic on Lancaster.

 

I agree with this.  It's a walkable, scenic area and could serve well as the bottom of a rail transit loop although I think "light rail" in the Dart sense is huge overkill.

And as I think I have said before, I think it would be advantageous to leave the N. Lancaster properties free from major construction.  If you look at it now, it adds much to the overall view of the area which is dominated on the south by historic monumental buildings. Much of it is used as an ad hoc park now and I think that it should be left this way (without tacky structural "features", please). 


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#42 Jeriat

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 11:33 PM

"Frogline"
 
 
10013678_10203007394979269_4797231980646
 
 
 OPTION 1: 
 
 This line follows some of the Southsider's line, but continues down Rosedale. This line would also cut through to Midtown and down Forest Park. There would be a station next to the zoo, giving riders a closer walk than say stopping on University. Given the Mistletoe Heights residents complaining about the road change, this option may be a little... unattractive. 
 
10346654_10203007395659286_5319679864561
 
OPTION 2: 
 
This line continues down Lancaster as if it were following The W-Line. But as soon as it gets to University, it just drops south towards TCU in a straight path. 
 
Both lines would end in what is a planned stop for TEXRail in the futue on Berry Street station. 
 
10329171_10203007396179299_8431262939916
 
 
 
... and there's your 5. 

Next up, the cars and station examples. 

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#43 Urbndwlr

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 02:12 PM

I think you take the lines down Magnolia rather than Rosedale.

And i think the "network effect" of having all the modes (street cars, commuter rail, busses) meet at a central point, whether that is the ITC or a replacement (perhaps extend it to the south), is important.   Granted, it might make moving cars along that street more inconvenient but some level of increased inconvenience to passenger cars is okay.



#44 Jeriat

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 06:59 PM

I think you take the lines down Magnolia rather than Rosedale.

And i think the "network effect" of having all the modes (street cars, commuter rail, busses) meet at a central point, whether that is the ITC or a replacement (perhaps extend it to the south), is important.   Granted, it might make moving cars along that street more inconvenient but some level of increased inconvenience to passenger cars is okay.

 

Reason why I'm using Rosedale is because it just seems better to have the rail line on a major street. 

Although I'm sure that when the day comes, the light rail line will be used for Mag Av instead. 


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#45 urbancowboy

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 08:58 PM

Rosedale is fine if the tram has it's own right of way. The city would need to improve ped/bike connections between Rosedale and Magnolia. The Rosedale route also makes it easier to extend the line crosstown to TWU, kind of our own University line, without needing connect through downtown. Also Rosedale has several properties that can sustain large scale TOD. Of course, we would never let anything happen to Good Luck.

#46 Jeriat

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 07:22 PM

The cars....

 

10414483_10203018945108015_1261339052538

 

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#47 Austin55

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 12:46 AM

Really impressed with how this has all been presented.

Stkyrd/PI cars looks awesome!

#48 Jeriat

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 02:21 PM

Really impressed with how this has all been presented.

Stkyrd/PI cars looks awesome!



Thanks. This has all been in mind for a while now. I'm just now getting the chance to put it on paper.

I wanted to get it all down so I can start with my summer project of rearranging the west side of downtown...

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#49 Jeriat

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 07:13 PM

Haven't done a "teaser" in a while, but this is just a small glimpse of the next step in this current project of mine... 

10418249_10203045482011421_4259525619098


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#50 Jeriat

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 06:33 AM

Station Example: SPi 

 

 

10384363_10203046585799015_4835320943564

 

The style of these stations are a mix between the old (Stockyards) and new (Panther Island) with red brick representing the Stockyards and White bricks representing Panther Island. You see green, blue, and black in benches and lamps obviously to match the color scheme of the cars.

 

10347775_10203046584638986_2024975751066

 

Transfer ticket machines and displays for maps. 

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Vending machines for the wait....

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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Rail, Urban Planning, Subway, LRT, Streetcar

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