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The Image of Fort Worth


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#51 Dallastar

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 08:02 PM

I'm on the outside looking in, but in my opinion the only people I see that have a problem with the image of Ft. Worth are some of you guys on this board.  I use to be a corporate recruiter for years and in my travels (mostly on the east coast) people raved about the western culture, they fantasied about being cowboys, they couldn't wait to get here to get a 10 gallon hat, snake skin boots, and a big shinny belt buckle.  Now they were in for a rude awakening when they got to Dallas and saw no such things, (they thought Dallas was in a desert with mountains) I would inform them that if they wanted a true western culture experience they would have to go to Ft. Worth.  I've never been to the Stockyards but they loved it. 

In my opinion, Ft. Worth needs to embrace the cowboy culture more.



#52 Jeriat

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 10:47 PM

We are all making good quotes, but the point is that if Fort Worth is going to separate it's self from Dallas it is going to have to think bigger than it does now. Atlanta doesn't have half the population of fort Worth, but you couldn't tell that just by looking at the city or visiting the city.

Not necessarily. 

Oakland and San Fran are damn near right next to each other (compared to Dallas and Fort Worth) and yet, people know the difference between them. 

Fort Worth doesn't have to think "bigger". Just market more. 


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#53 johnfwd

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:17 AM

 

We are all making good quotes, but the point is that if Fort Worth is going to separate it's self from Dallas it is going to have to think bigger than it does now. Atlanta doesn't have half the population of fort Worth, but you couldn't tell that just by looking at the city or visiting the city.

Not necessarily. 

Oakland and San Fran are damn near right next to each other (compared to Dallas and Fort Worth) and yet, people know the difference between them. 

Fort Worth doesn't have to think "bigger". Just market more. 

 

People across the country know the difference between Oakland and San Francisco because both cities have NFL franchises.



#54 Doohickie

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:21 AM

People across the country know the difference between Oakland and San Francisco because both cities have NFL franchises.


That's part of what I was thinking of when I was discussing "second tier" cities. Fort Worth has no major sports teams, and with the current formula for getting one (expanding market penetration), I can't see us getting one except for possibly MLS.
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#55 ramjet

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 09:52 AM

Jeriat and others are right, Fort Worth needs to market itself better if it wants a more distinctive image.  Austin doesn't have a professional sports team.  And also doesn't navel gaze about it's image.  It markets the heck out of itself, which has paid off in some ways, and has made life here more difficult in others.  And in my opinion, Fort Worth has many more marketable assets than Austin.  I have often wondered if Fort Worth's business community and complicit local government proactively don't want to do the kind of aggressive marketing that cities like Austin do.  There is definitely a downside to a civic high profile.   It can attract the desirable, as well as the undesirable, in terms of people and issues.  If you folks enjoy the quality of life that Fort Worth offers, it might be better in the long run to keep it under your hat.  Just a thought.



#56 johnfwd

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:25 AM

Of course Austin is our state capital and deserves notoriety as such.  Incidentally, can someone tell me why Austin is not the host to the State Fair of Texas?  In almost every state in the Union, the fair is located in the state capital (e.g., Oklahoma City).  Yeah, I know, the Texas fair was caught in the Dallas tentacles eons ago! 



#57 Russ Graham

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 02:14 PM

Off topic, but the Alaska state fair is held in Palmer, in the Mat-Su valley, home of hundred-pound cabbages and thousand-pound pumpkins; and not in the state capital of Juneau.

 

So, if Dallas is the Palmer of Texas, that would make Fort Worth the Wasila of Texas (The town, next to the town, that hosts the State Fair).  Just need to work on growing some giant cabbages to get us on the map.



#58 cberen1

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 03:01 PM

I think we need to separate the discussion of how Fort Worth is marketed from the discussion of how it is perceived.  Fort Worth is not a tube of toothpaste.  It's far more complex than that.  You aren't going to shape broad public opinion with a big marketing blitz or even a sustained marketing campaign. 

 

When you market a city you are trying to attract something specific, convention business, corporate relocations, government contracts, tourism, consumer spending, etc.  Each of those things requires different marketing to different people with different messages.  You're not going to find one message that does all of that and reshapes the image of the city.  Apart from Las Vegas, I don't think any city has been able to market itself that way.

 

As an example of that, I want to list off the ten largest cities in the U.S.  I'd like people to list what their impression of the city is.  I bet it is, in general, pretty different from how they market themselves.

 

New York

Los Angeles

Chicago

Houston

Philly

Phoenix

San Antonio

San Diego

Dallas

San Jose

 

What do you think?



#59 JKC

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 03:33 PM

Jeriat and others are right, Fort Worth needs to market itself better if it wants a more distinctive image.  Austin doesn't have a professional sports team.  And also doesn't navel gaze about it's image.  It markets the heck out of itself, which has paid off in some ways, and has made life here more difficult in others.  And in my opinion, Fort Worth has many more marketable assets than Austin.  I have often wondered if Fort Worth's business community and complicit local government proactively don't want to do the kind of aggressive marketing that cities like Austin do.  There is definitely a downside to a civic high profile.   It can attract the desirable, as well as the undesirable, in terms of people and issues.  If you folks enjoy the quality of life that Fort Worth offers, it might be better in the long run to keep it under your hat.  Just a thought.

 

The city comparisons tend to get difficult but here is one potential issue to address.  Most Texas cities "market" themselves through the CVB. CVB budgets with are funded (usually) through Hotel Occupancy Taxes (HOT).  FW and Austin stack up budgetwise this way:

 

FW:     Total HOT revenue $19,498,000;  CVB Budget $7,095,000

 

Austin: Total HOT revenue $51,198,142;  CVB Budget $11,000,000

 

Obviously, Austin has many more hotel rooms and a strong user group of same. Though convention center exhibit space is virtually the same and the populations are also similar. FW is "quieter" from a marketing perspective largely as a result of a much smaller marketing budget



#60 djold1

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 04:05 PM

But once again:  Is this need to provide a "more distinctive image" really an imperative... OR, is it just a mental figment of some individual or group of individuals that are dissatisfied with the current image as they perceive it?  

 

I'm not sure that FW doesn't already have a distinctive image, even though it may not be "hip" (what an archaic word!) enough in the eyes of a few.  I'm not sure that having symbolic tall towers built without proven need, would add to the ambiance either, particularly if they were of the same ghastly style as the ones we now have to look at daily.  

 

That doesn't mean that there isn't a need for improvement and a constant self questioning, but the improvements when made,  should be of substance....   


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#61 Jeriat

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:02 PM

 

 

We are all making good quotes, but the point is that if Fort Worth is going to separate it's self from Dallas it is going to have to think bigger than it does now. Atlanta doesn't have half the population of fort Worth, but you couldn't tell that just by looking at the city or visiting the city.

Not necessarily. 

Oakland and San Fran are damn near right next to each other (compared to Dallas and Fort Worth) and yet, people know the difference between them. 

Fort Worth doesn't have to think "bigger". Just market more. 

 

People across the country know the difference between Oakland and San Francisco because both cities have NFL franchises.

 

 

 

 

People across the country know the difference between Oakland and San Francisco because both cities have NFL franchises.


That's part of what I was thinking of when I was discussing "second tier" cities. Fort Worth has no major sports teams, and with the current formula for getting one (expanding market penetration), I can't see us getting one except for possibly MLS.

 

 

Technically, we DO have major pro sports teams. They both play in Arlington, which is in our county. But seeing how some Dallasites get a little sensitive about that, let's leave that for another day... :smwink:

 

Sports only helps so much as far as a national attention for a city goes, mainly because if your team isn't doing well, the country will pretty much ignore them... unless you're the Cowboys, Lakers, or Yankees, of course. 

If you are NOT one of those three teams and you tank in your respective season, ESPN will pretty much over look you. Just take a look at Jacksonville with the Jaguars, and then take a look at San Antonio with the Spurs. 

 


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#62 Jeriat

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 05:05 PM

Jeriat and others are right, Fort Worth needs to market itself better if it wants a more distinctive image.  Austin doesn't have a professional sports team.  And also doesn't navel gaze about it's image.  It markets the heck out of itself, which has paid off in some ways, and has made life here more difficult in others.  And in my opinion, Fort Worth has many more marketable assets than Austin.  I have often wondered if Fort Worth's business community and complicit local government proactively don't want to do the kind of aggressive marketing that cities like Austin do.  There is definitely a downside to a civic high profile.   It can attract the desirable, as well as the undesirable, in terms of people and issues.  If you folks enjoy the quality of life that Fort Worth offers, it might be better in the long run to keep it under your hat.  Just a thought.

 

Oh, I'm saying Fort Worth should market itself better based on a "more distinctive image". 

I'm saying it if Fort Worth wants to be NOTICED more than it is now. 


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#63 renamerusk

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:17 PM

 

People across the country know the difference between Oakland and San Francisco because both cities have NFL franchises.


That's part of what I was thinking of when I was discussing "second tier" cities. Fort Worth has no major sports teams, and with the current formula for getting one (expanding market penetration), I can't see us getting one except for possibly MLS.

 

 

 I am very skeptical about major sport teams and their actual impact on a city's image.  Did it really take the Brooklyn Dodgers and the New York Giants respectively to put Los Angeles and San Francisco on to someones radar?

 

Major sport teams are more often then not economic drains on an economy when you factor in the gigantic stadium subsidies and revenues which would have been realized anyway by other economic choices that the consumer spends their leisure dollar. This was one thing that former Dallas Mayor Laura Miller understood when the Cowboys Corporation had its hands out for public funding and she "No". Sure a team's win can make you feel good - but that is just about all it does.

 

The State of Texas Visitor's Guide is very bullish on the Cowboy and Western Heritage image associated with this state.  I think people and business from other states and countries have come to expect this image.  Like Dallastar would put it - Fort Worth is the place that they are really looking for; and with the state's help, the city should ride it to the bank.



#64 Dallastar

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:52 PM

 

- Fort Worth is the place that they are really looking for; and with the state's help, the city should ride it to the bank.

 

 

 

They should, but I can't figure out why they haven't.  These are missed opportunities, the novelty of city slickers becoming cowboys for a weekend is very tempting.



#65 ron4Life

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:12 AM

"It can attract the desirable, as well as the undesirable, in terms of people and issues.  If you folks enjoy the quality of life that Fort Worth offers, it might be better in the long run to keep it under your hat.  Just a thought"

Ramjet you definitely have a point there. When most travelers head out of town, they do not want to deal with the homeless (nothing totally against the person), and they do not want to deal with hustlers on the streets. Fort Worth like the concept of springing up huge events and than head right back into the Cowboys and Culture shadows. I have come to the realization that these guys that are running this city have traveled before and know what tourist really want out of a city when visiting. It's something about going into a city to vacation and there are no undesirables there envading your space. Although that in most cases can be far fetch, but I think Fort Worth want to at least try to give tourist and it's locals that kind of experience, by using a label such as Cowboys and Culture. GO Fort Worth!



#66 ramjet

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:22 AM

Somebody woke up...!

 

http://www.star-tele...f-commerce.html



#67 djold1

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:38 AM

The is the Disney effect..  A Utopian destination that masks reality. Avoiding NLE's (Not Like Me). Nothing really wrong with this. Another illusion for Fort Worth which is extremely powerful in terms of tourist draw, is the desire to see the "old west" as they expect it to be.

 

The Stockyards attracts a huge number of people from other lands just for this and generally they enjoy it very much and lay down a bunch of US dollars while they are there. If you haven't worked around the Stockyards then it would be very hard for you to realize how much this area adds to the reputation and desirability of Fort Worth..  


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Website: Antique Maps of Texas
Large format reproductions of original antique and vintage Texas & southwestern maps
 


#68 johnfwd

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 11:45 AM

As an example of that, I want to list off the ten largest cities in the U.S.  I'd like people to list what their impression of the city is.  I bet it is, in general, pretty different from how they market themselves.

 

New York

Los Angeles

Chicago

Houston

Philly

Phoenix

San Antonio

San Diego

Dallas

San Jose

 

What do you think?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry to interrupt this discussion but I have to play this game:  New York (Big Apple, Frank Sinatra, 9/11); Los Angeles (Dodgers, Lakers); Chicago (windy, cold, Al Capone); Houston (oil smell, traffic congestion, mosquitos); Philly (no brotherly love, Rocky Balboa, my mother's birth place); Phoenix (hot desert); San Antonio (Alamo, river walk); San Diego (rainy, sandy beaches); Dallas (JFK, the TV show, Cowboys); San Jose (no place I would want to live). 



#69 johnfwd

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:05 PM

The Fort Worth chamber has an image slogan, aimed at economic development, as told in this S-T article by Sandra Baker.

 

http://www.star-tele...f-commerce.html



#70 prideftw

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 11:32 AM

 

"It can attract the desirable, as well as the undesirable, in terms of people and issues.  If you folks enjoy the quality of life that Fort Worth offers, it might be better in the long run to keep it under your hat.  Just a thought"

Ramjet you definitely have a point there. When most travelers head out of town, they do not want to deal with the homeless (nothing totally against the person), and they do not want to deal with hustlers on the streets. Fort Worth like the concept of springing up huge events and than head right back into the Cowboys and Culture shadows. I have come to the realization that these guys that are running this city have traveled before and know what tourist really want out of a city when visiting. It's something about going into a city to vacation and there are no undesirables there envading your space. Although that in most cases can be far fetch, but I think Fort Worth want to at least try to give tourist and it's locals that kind of experience, by using a label such as Cowboys and Culture. GO Fort Worth!

 

How is Fort Worth doing that with a major homeless population literally 1 minute from downtown. They don't even have the respect to fix up the buildings and try to make them look better.



#71 johnfwd

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 01:53 PM

There is hope on the horizon, Prideftw.  Check out this article in the Fort Worth Business Press.

 

 

https://fwbusinesspr...d-families.aspx



#72 prideftw

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:51 PM

There is hope on the horizon, Prideftw.  Check out this article in the Fort Worth Business Press.

 

 

https://fwbusinesspr...d-families.aspx

I like that. 



#73 eastfwther

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 11:29 AM

After watching lots of national media coverage of that shooting at the naval base in DC, I've learned that when something happens in Dallas, the national media says "Dallas".  Yet, when discussing the shooter lived in Fort Worth, instead of Fort Worth, the media would usually just say "Texas".  A few times, I heard "near Dallas" or "outside Dallas".  I only heard Fort Worth a few times.   A co-worker said it's because people outside of Texas still have no idea where Fort Worth is.  Can that still be true? Judging from the media coverage, he may be right.



#74 Doohickie

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 12:48 PM

I'm okay with that.
Without looking at a map, do you know where Buffalo, NY, is? MSNBC is no help...

 

brl9moscmaaadxq.jpeg


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#75 John T Roberts

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 01:51 PM

Without looking at the map, I was going to say the far western end of New York, not too far from Niagara Falls.  From what I can tell, geographically challenged people should not work in the graphics departments of networks.



#76 Austin55

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 02:41 PM

On Discovery's Fast N' Loud show.

ZjcBVWw.jpg

 

Damnit. 



#77 eastfwther

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 05:31 AM

On Discovery's Fast N' Loud show.

ZjcBVWw.jpg

 

Damnit. 

That's a bummer for For Worth, but for Dallas too.  I really don't think Dallas would appreciate that photo being shown as its skyline.



#78 Jeriat

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 08:33 AM

I'm okay with that.
Without looking at a map, do you know where Buffalo, NY, is? MSNBC is no help...

 

brl9moscmaaadxq.jpeg

 

Wow... 


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8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#79 Doohickie

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 01:12 PM

Wow...


My guess is that an intern set that graphic up with the intention of finding the locations of the cities and correcting them later, then got busy with other things and the editor didn't catch it before it went on the air. You see it with some regularity especially on the 24 hr cable news channels.
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#80 cjyoung

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 10:45 AM

Wow! on both photos!

 

I think for the most part people know where Fort Worth is located and even the few that reference Dallas really don't know where Dallas is either.

 

Fort Worth can keep the western stuff. Not for me as a person who grew up in Stop Six and Eastwood, but I don't think it hurts.

 

I would just like to see some more aggressive marketing for corporate relocations.

 

Too many Tarrant County people drive to Dallas and Collin Counties to work, especially in the high-tech (and high-salary) IT and life science fields.



#81 gdvanc

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 09:59 AM

Geography isn't a strong subject for much of the younger half of our country. I wouldn't be surprised if a significant number of our fellow Americans could not quickly point to NYC or LA or Chicago on an un-labeled map. Or possibly on a labeled map.

 

It's not important, though, for them to know where we are if they're not going to come here. The important thing is to make them want to make the trip and bring their credit cards and debit cards and lottery winnings and 401k loans. When they want to do that, they can Google the location easy enough. That's something they know how to do.



#82 prideftw

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 02:51 PM

Geography isn't a strong subject for much of the younger half of our country. I wouldn't be surprised if a significant number of our fellow Americans could not quickly point to NYC or LA or Chicago on an un-labeled map. Or possibly on a labeled map.

 

It's not important, though, for them to know where we are if they're not going to come here. The important thing is to make them want to make the trip and bring their credit cards and debit cards and lottery winnings and 401k loans. When they want to do that, they can Google the location easy enough. That's something they know how to do.

lol, this is not real, lol



#83 renamerusk

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 03:42 PM

Geography isn't a strong subject for much of the younger half of our country.....


It's not important, though, for them to know where we are if they're not going to come here. The important thing is to make them want to make the trip and bring their credit cards and debit cards and lottery winnings and 401k loans.

 

Spot On!



#84 gdvanc

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 02:51 PM

<snip>

As an example of that, I want to list off the ten largest cities in the U.S.  I'd like people to list what their impression of the city is.  I bet it is, in general, pretty different from how they market themselves.

 

New York

Los Angeles

Chicago

Houston

Philly

Phoenix

San Antonio

San Diego

Dallas

San Jose

 

What do you think?

 

New York   ...  Wall Street, Broadway, Crime

Los Angeles  ...  Hollywood, Beaches, Crime

Chicago   ...   Blues, Pizza, Crime

Houston   ... Cockroaces, Humidity, Crime

Philly   ...  Ben Franklin, Liberty Bell, Anger Management Issues, Crime

Phoenix   ...  Adobe, Aridity, Californian Invasion

San Antonio   ...  Alamo, River Walk, Margaritas

San Diego   .... Beaches of Perpetual Moderate Summer, Eventual Atlantis

Dallas   ...  Galactic Capital of the Pretentious

San Jose  ...  Wealthy Hi-tech Suburb



#85 BedfordLawyer

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 04:35 PM

There's nothing wrong with FTW having that western theme except for those looking from the outside in, it often comes across as backwards, ignorant and antiquated. Nobody wants to bring a high tech business to somewhere like that.

 

There's nothing wrong with FTW having a western or cowboy heritage. It's fun; but FTW needs to carefully distinguish between its heritage and its modern approach. You look at FTW proper and it's not so fun. Not a great school system. Very few urban districts that appeal to the kind of people businesses want to hire and the ones that are there are relatively young. FTW has relied heavily on the Perot and Bass families to do the work developing the city in a modern way. Sure, there are some nice neighborhoods in the southwest quarter but they aren't really interesting areas. The majority of FTW residential neighborhoods are low income areas. That's why most people live in the suburbs. Keep the heritage but start treating the city as a development project instead of praying rich families will want to make the investment for the city.


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#86 Doohickie

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:57 AM

I don't think the school district is such a detractor.  Any major urban environment is going to be the same.  And there are some pretty decent schools; I think it's fashionable to criticize public schools these days but if you want your kids to get a good education, you can get it in several (most?) FWISD schools.


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#87 cberen1

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 12:03 PM

There's nothing wrong with FTW having that western theme except for those looking from the outside in, it often comes across as backwards, ignorant and antiquated. Nobody wants to bring a high tech business to somewhere like that.

 

There's nothing wrong with FTW having a western or cowboy heritage. It's fun; but FTW needs to carefully distinguish between its heritage and its modern approach. You look at FTW proper and it's not so fun. Not a great school system. Very few urban districts that appeal to the kind of people businesses want to hire and the ones that are there are relatively young. FTW has relied heavily on the Perot and Bass families to do the work developing the city in a modern way. Sure, there are some nice neighborhoods in the southwest quarter but they aren't really interesting areas. The majority of FTW residential neighborhoods are low income areas. That's why most people live in the suburbs. Keep the heritage but start treating the city as a development project instead of praying rich families will want to make the investment for the city.

 

So much fail in one post.  I don't know where to begin.

 

Fort Worth schools look a lot like Dallas schools. And Keller schools look like Plano Schools.  And Crowley schools look like Cedar Hill schools.  It is the nature of public education in Texas.

 

Perot and Bass have nothing to do with West 7th, Magnolia, Edwards Ranch, etc.  I consider all of those to be "interesting" and apparently so do the Dallas developers who are pouring money into the areas.  Actually, Perot doesn't come up much in discussion around here.  Are you sure Jr. is doing any development work at all?

 

I'm hiring lots of people right now.  I'm hiring them mostly out of Fort Worth, and not having much trouble finding good people who want to move out of the burbs and into Fort Worth.

 

The majority of FW residential neighborhoods are not "low-income".   Where in the world does that view come from?  Colonial (University West), Park Hill, Ridglea, Arlington Heights, Monticello, Hulen, Ryanwood, Ryan Place, Westcliff, Tanglewood, Mira Vista, Westover Hills (technically not Ft. Worth), MIstletoe Hieghts, Berkely, and on and on are not anywhere close to being "low income".  There certainly are low income areas of Fort Worth, like in almost all urban settings, but not disproportionately so (Hillside, Poly, Stop Six, Glenchrest, etc.).

 

I don't know.  Seems like an incompletely formed opinion.



#88 ramjet

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:54 PM

 

There's nothing wrong with FTW having that western theme except for those looking from the outside in, it often comes across as backwards, ignorant and antiquated. Nobody wants to bring a high tech business to somewhere like that.

 

There's nothing wrong with FTW having a western or cowboy heritage. It's fun; but FTW needs to carefully distinguish between its heritage and its modern approach. You look at FTW proper and it's not so fun. Not a great school system. Very few urban districts that appeal to the kind of people businesses want to hire and the ones that are there are relatively young. FTW has relied heavily on the Perot and Bass families to do the work developing the city in a modern way. Sure, there are some nice neighborhoods in the southwest quarter but they aren't really interesting areas. The majority of FTW residential neighborhoods are low income areas. That's why most people live in the suburbs. Keep the heritage but start treating the city as a development project instead of praying rich families will want to make the investment for the city.

 

So much fail in one post.  I don't know where to begin.

 

Fort Worth schools look a lot like Dallas schools. And Keller schools look like Plano Schools.  And Crowley schools look like Cedar Hill schools.  It is the nature of public education in Texas.

 

Perot and Bass have nothing to do with West 7th, Magnolia, Edwards Ranch, etc.  I consider all of those to be "interesting" and apparently so do the Dallas developers who are pouring money into the areas.  Actually, Perot doesn't come up much in discussion around here.  Are you sure Jr. is doing any development work at all?

 

I'm hiring lots of people right now.  I'm hiring them mostly out of Fort Worth, and not having much trouble finding good people who want to move out of the burbs and into Fort Worth.

 

The majority of FW residential neighborhoods are not "low-income".   Where in the world does that view come from?  Colonial (University West), Park Hill, Ridglea, Arlington Heights, Monticello, Hulen, Ryanwood, Ryan Place, Westcliff, Tanglewood, Mira Vista, Westover Hills (technically not Ft. Worth), MIstletoe Hieghts, Berkely, and on and on are not anywhere close to being "low income".  There certainly are low income areas of Fort Worth, like in almost all urban settings, but not disproportionately so (Hillside, Poly, Stop Six, Glenchrest, etc.).

 

I don't know.  Seems like an incompletely formed opinion.

 

Totally agree ceberen1.  And would just like to add that just because a neighborhood might include lower income residents, that doesn't make it an undesirable or "bad" neighborhood.  I grew up in a middle/working class neighborhood in Fort Worth and thought it was the greatest place in the world.



#89 John T Roberts

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 03:55 PM

I also grew up in a middle/working class neighborhood and like ramjet, I thought it was the greatest place in the world.



#90 Doohickie

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:10 AM

I totally agree with cberen1 too.  In fact, I ride my bicycle through some of those middle/working class neighborhoods regularly and I'm quite comfortable in them.  No pretense, no need to keep up with the Joneses.  Don't get me wrong, lots of nice homes, but they reflect the owners' personalities, not the image of some monolithic neighborhood association.  I'd like to at some point move from the urban sprawl south of Sycamore School Road up to one of those older neighborhoods.  Ideally, that would be in Fairmount or Ryan Place, but we'll look at other neighborhoods like Shaw-Clarke, Rosemont, etc.

 

I happen to know of a certain forum administrator that lives in a lovely home in a decent neighborhood that most people would consider middle/working class.  I wouldn't mind a home like that.

 

I might add that I grew up in a similar neighborhood up north (Buffalo, NY) and it was a great place to grow up.


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#91 prideftw

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 11:09 AM

Area like stop-6 and poly aren't really all that bad either and if these areas were given proper resources they would be beautiful places to live. I know people with nice homes in those areas who are not poor or working class.  



#92 prideftw

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 11:11 AM

In fact I am tired of historically black neighborhoods being considered bad places. That is why I feel that there is a lot of racism in Tarrant County. 



#93 Now in Denton

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 02:24 PM

The Fast N' Loud wrong skyline is funny . But I for one laugh at the very name " Dallas COWBOYS"  Talk about contradiction in terms . The Cowboy is in their historic heritage as well. Like it or not. But I have problem with Houston as well. Their was a commercial not long ago. Visit Houston. That actor from Big Bang theory show says. " I saw more horses in New York City than in Houston" Oh please. What's will they say next ? Sam Houston never rode a horse. Visit Houston !



#94 renamerusk

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 09:41 AM

 

As for promoting the city, I honestly don't think that we will reap any rewards, even if we step it up.  Most large corporations don't view Fort Worth as a desirable place for business.  

 

John, I agree with most of what you said on this issue, but I can't help but feel that this part feels a bit circular. This seems to be saying that Fort Worth should not / could not be better promoted because most corporations don't see it as desirable. But if the very purpose of promotion is to make something seem more desirable, then that would suggest that more promotion should be done by Fort Worth to overcome the existing perceptions among large corporations that Fort Worth is not a desirable place for business.

 

On a separate note (and to take a bit of the edge off of my earlier dig), it is worth pointing out that Fort Worth is seriously outgunned when it comes to the number of people it has working on business attraction or expansion......but if Fort Worth is going to be more competitive in recruiting office tenants (particularly those who work in business and professional services), then it is going to have to have the resources to step up and compete in this respect.....

 

....... And it is going to take time. If you really want to get down to it, Fort Worth is the best city in the most asset-rich region of the most business-friendly state in America... it should be pulling in a better number of businesses downtown.

 

....having Fort Worth lumped in as part of "the Dallas area," ...."just call it Dallas." They are not clueless as to the benefits they receive by having the full MSA labeled informally as Dallas and they take advantage of it every chance they get. Fort Worth ignores this to its detriment.

 

 

I thought it would be a good idea to shift this particular discussion to this thread and to carry it on here where it can be afforded the attention that it sorely needs.

For me, RM, your post is brilliant and is filled with thoughtful analysis.

Paraphrasing if I may from your post, here are the crucial points that stuck with me:

(1) Fort Worth must make every effort to promote its uniqueness;
(2) Fort Worth too is situated in the most fertile business region in the nation
(3) Fort Worth is conscientiously marginalized by regionalism.

It may be  a mistake to think of the number of corporations located within your city as a preeminent measure of the quality of life in a city. Corporations, though a part of a city, do not make a city, they make profit and are mandated  to seek the next best offer (i.e. Toyota Corp.).   Aside from creating housing bubbles, high rents, they can create income gaps and inflated prices as has occurred in NYC where it is nearly impossible for New Yorkers to live in Manhattan.     

Asking myself what can Fort Worth do, it came to me to look for a city that probably faces even a greater asymmetric image equation than does Fort Worth:Dallas; and that city is Oakland, CA  which is a city locked in its own rancorous equation - Oakland:San Francisco. It is generally accepted that San Francisco is, like Dallas here, considered the corporate darling and the predominant job engine in the region. But like Oakland does when it comes to San Francisco, Fort Worth can make the equation work for itself by separating from Dallas as much and as often as it can.       

For all of its many problems, Oakland is beginning to get the attention of San Francisco; or for what I think more importantly,  the attention of many urban people in the Bay Area who are seeking a comfortable and affordable life   Today,  San Francisco is so insanely expensive that Oakland is seen as much more affordable, and more importantly, it is seen as a good option in the Bay Area for younger urban people. This option will sustain and make Oakland “hip”; not so much for corporations, but for what really matters, for its people.  

Now, it is not certain that the Oakland:San Francisco equation will be replicated here, but I believe that it can ant that it will.  With time, rates and capital that seek favorable terms are likely to migrate to Fort Worth as businesses follow people who find the affordable qualities of Fort Worth appealing. And like Oakland’s in-town lake, Fort Worth will have its own in-town lake, Panther Island.  PI will bring in new high tech businesses and urban minded people to the core of the city that will change the landscape in downtown Fort Worth forever. There is a great day on the horizon for Fort Worth.  I agree that it will take time; and it will also take the strategy of continuing to build a comfortable city, a fact that Fort Worth is well down the road to.

In the interim, the resources that Fort Worth needs are tourism (conventions) that will support small and local businesses and will showcase the city to potential migrants to the area; and its own inter-city transportation infrastructure (rail/air)  that will offer a direct connection to the city.  These resources could be implemented in a short period and together would bring notice to visitors and businessmen that Fort Worth is in fact a place distinguishable from Dallas.

 

Fort Worth over everyone.


 



#95 urbancowboy

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 03:28 PM

I agree with most of the comments.  I tend to believe that regionalism to some extent, and Fort Worth proximity to Dallas has reduced its visibility and autonomy. Taking Fort Worth for what it is, a city with world-class cultural amenities, a great downtown, good business climate if we were 100 miles further west (or Dallas further east) we would easily be a more visible urban center and well known destination. In addition, we would probably be the third largest metro in the state and one of the larger in the country if you took Tarrant, Johnson, Parker, Wise, Hood and the western portion of Denton County. Our own media would help as well, I wish channel five had moved downtown or even to West 7th.



#96 RenaissanceMan

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 04:53 PM

I agree with most of the comments.  I tend to believe that regionalism to some extent, and Fort Worth proximity to Dallas has reduced its visibility and autonomy. Taking Fort Worth for what it is, a city with world-class cultural amenities, a great downtown, good business climate if we were 100 miles further west (or Dallas further east) we would easily be a more visible urban center and well known destination. In addition, we would probably be the third largest metro in the state and one of the larger in the country if you took Tarrant, Johnson, Parker, Wise, Hood and the western portion of Denton County. Our own media would help as well, I wish channel five had moved downtown or even to West 7th.


Agree 100%

#97 renamerusk

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 05:34 PM

It does seem like Fort Worth constantly misses out on office jobs...make no mistake, the announcement that Toyota is moving to Plano and bringing 4,000 jobs is still good news for the city of Dallas.... Many of those people will be shopping, eating, partying and living in Dallas. ...I think Fort Worth does a really poor job of marketing itself to the business community and is really being left behind.

 
It is not as though downtown/uptown Dallas is short of office space, in fact there is a glut of vacant office space in downtown Dallas; and yet Dallas was overlooked too.  So disappointed was Mayor Rawlings (Dallas) that Plano was selected that he is blaming DISD as the reason for his city not getting Toyota. 
 
I have my suspicion that Rick Perry had already cut a deal with Toyota and Plano during his trip to California. The deal would go to heavily conservative Collin County and who would be getting this; not Dallas proper or even Fort Worth.  It happen so quickly and secretly that hardly anyone including Dallas proper or Fort Worth had an opportunity to make their pitch.

 

From what I suspect, I do not believe it is fair to blame Fort Worth for missing out on this one.
 
Rick Perry for President :glare:



#98 RenaissanceMan

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 06:48 PM


It does seem like Fort Worth constantly misses out on office jobs...make no mistake, the announcement that Toyota is moving to Plano and bringing 4,000 jobs is still good news for the city of Dallas.... Many of those people will be shopping, eating, partying and living in Dallas. ...I think Fort Worth does a really poor job of marketing itself to the business community and is really being left behind.

 
I have my suspicion that Rick Perry had already cut a deal with Toyota and Plano during his trip to California; and that the deal would go to heavily conservative Collin County. would be getting this and not Dallas proper or even Fort Worth.  It happen so quickly and secretly that hardly anyone including Dallas proper or Fort Worth had an opportunity to make their pitch.
 
Rick Perry for President :glare:

While I can understand how you'd come to that conclusion... that's not exactly how these things work.

#99 renamerusk

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 10:10 PM

 


I have my suspicion that Rick Perry had already cut a deal with Toyota and Plano during his trip to California; and that the deal would go to heavily conservative Collin County. would be getting this and not Dallas proper or even Fort Worth.  It happen so quickly and secretly that hardly anyone including Dallas proper or Fort Worth had an opportunity to make their pitch.
 
Rick Perry for President :glare:

While I can understand how you'd come to that conclusion... that's not exactly how these things work.

 

 

From Dallas Morning News (5/3/2014)

 

Toyota leases interim offices

 

...Bruce Miller and Paul Martin with the law firm Vinson & Elkins negotiated the office lease

 

Miller said "The transaction to rent the office space happened quickly. We didn't know who the tenant was going to be until Monday...The lease was signed Wednesday".

 

Apparently, they knew something ahead of the rest of us, just not the who?

 

Now I ask anyone for an explaination of how Plano and the Campus of Legacy get this over Irving (Las Colinas), Dallas (Uptown/Downtown) Westlake or Fort Worth? 

 

Also Gov. Brown (California) cited comments from Toyota who said the decision to consolidate operations in Texas (Plano) was based partly on its proximity to manufacturing plants in Texas, Kentucky, Mississippi and Indiana. So then why not relocate to San Antonio?



#100 johnfwd

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 10:57 AM

Regionalism is in the eye of the COG planner and the beholder. The North Texas COG planner, of course, sees an interconnecting, interdependent solitary entity consisting largely of three cities--Fort Worth, Denton, Dallas. The beholder is anyone who doesn't live in Texas and sees all of our area as "Dallas." Makes no difference to a re-locating Toyota executive in California whether the Toyota corporate move is to Plano, or North Richland Hills, or Arlington, or even Fort Worth. "Where we moving to?" the exec asks the CEO. The CEO replies, "To Dallas."

Somebody mentioned the San Francisco-Oakland analogy. If someone in Texas, say, is accepted for a job in Oakland, he'll probably tell a friend, "Goin' to San Francisco!" It's an unfortunately reality that regionalism obscures all subordinate urban entities under the name of the major metropolitan leader, whether it's San Francisco or Dallas. Unfortunately, the "image" of Fort Worth is, in actuality, a shadow of Dallas.




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