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Convention Center Arena Study

Downtown Arena Convention Center

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#51 RenaissanceMan

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:26 PM

Very interesting! It seems to me it'd be the cities best interest to build a new arena with its primary focus on gatherings (IE concerts, speakers, etc), rather than sports. I can't help but wonder if what they really need is an auditorium? What advantages would having a 360 degree seating pattern have for most of what the current Convention Center holds or could hold? Besides Hockey, Basketball, Wresting and maybe some other sports. I guess the seating capacity of an arena would probably be larger. I do hope they build an arena though, and are perhaps able to attract some minor league teams (especially hockey, it's my favorite)
 
I also heard a plaza in there, seems a bit silly to build a plaza on the same block as the CC. Just build the building all the way to the sidewalk, they need as much room as they can get, and turn General Worth Square into a more proper plaza. Close down that block of Main, no one needs it anyway. 


Would be interesting if for certain concerts and for Main St. Arts Fest the stage were able to open up to the outside facing General Worth Square.

#52 renamerusk

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:41 PM

Very interesting! It seems to me it'd be the cities best interest to build a new arena with its primary focus on gatherings (IE concerts, speakers, etc), rather than sports. I can't help but wonder if what they really need is an auditorium?

 

It seems that that is just what the city should do. A one of its kind venue tailored just for conventions.



#53 John T Roberts

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:47 PM

Austin, we tore down the John F. Kennedy Auditorium at the south end of the Convention Center in 2000 to build the current ballroom and expansion of the building.



#54 Jeriat

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:16 PM

Austin, we tore down the John F. Kennedy Auditorium at the south end of the Convention Center in 2000 to build the current ballroom and expansion of the building.

 

I still just barely remember that set up.

Very "60's"...


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#55 John T Roberts

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 07:05 AM

1968 to be exact.



#56 RD Milhollin

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 08:06 AM

From what I have read the identified need is exhibit or "ballroom" space, not a theater. When and if a theater facility is needed people should loudly lament the destruction of the Majestic Theater formerly located right across Commerce Street. 



#57 Jeriat

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 01:05 PM

From what I have read the identified need is exhibit or "ballroom" space, not a theater. When and if a theater facility is needed people should loudly lament the destruction of the Majestic Theater formerly located right across Commerce Street. 


I know it wouldn't be the same, but that could become another Majestic, only this time it would be connected to the Convention Center

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#58 Fort Worthology

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 01:11 PM

From what I have read the identified need is exhibit or "ballroom" space, not a theater. When and if a theater facility is needed people should loudly lament the destruction of the Majestic Theater formerly located right across Commerce Street. 

 

"Hey guys, we want to build a HIDEOUSLY UGLY windowless bunker for the Convention Center HVAC system.  Let's tear down this historic theater to build it."

 

"What about literally any of these other lots anywhere around the Convention Center?"

 

"Nope!  Gotta be this one!  I got a hankerin' to slaughter some history and replace it with charmless, unfriendly garbage!" *

 

*note - this sentence also applies to the overall Convention Center project


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#59 brownjd

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 11:48 AM

 

From what I have read the identified need is exhibit or "ballroom" space, not a theater. When and if a theater facility is needed people should loudly lament the destruction of the Majestic Theater formerly located right across Commerce Street. 

 

"Hey guys, we want to build a HIDEOUSLY UGLY windowless bunker for the Convention Center HVAC system.  Let's tear down this historic theater to build it."

 

"What about literally any of these other lots anywhere around the Convention Center?"

 

"Nope!  Gotta be this one!  I got a hankerin' to slaughter some history and replace it with charmless, unfriendly garbage!" *

 

*note - this sentence also applies to the overall Convention Center project

 

 

You did get a nice curve in the street out of the deal.

 

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#60 John T Roberts

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 04:06 PM

The latest report was made to City Council at this afternoon's Pre-Council Meeting.  Here's the Star-Telegram's account of the report.  Tonight, the Fort Worth City Council will vote on the new arena at Will Rogers.

 

http://www.star-tele...adlines-default

 

The Business Press has a very extensive article on the study linked below:

 

http://fwbusinesspre...otel-rooms.aspx



#61 renamerusk

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 09:04 PM

The latest report was made to City Council at this afternoon's Pre-Council Meeting.  Here's the Star-Telegram's account of the report.  Tonight, the Fort Worth City Council will vote on the new arena at Will Rogers....The Business Press has a very extensive article on the study linked below:

 

Very bold and far reaching.



#62 John T Roberts

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 09:15 PM

The Council voted and it passed.  Therefore, at some point in time, there will be an election to build the arena.



#63 JBB

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 09:30 PM

I'm curious to see all of the nuts and bolts of the financing. I know it's an even private-public split, but I'm curious about ownership and if the arrangement will allow the city to make money from the events other than the mechanisms in place to repay the debt on the building. The rodeo has been pretty good at talking the city into one-sided deals in their favor in the past few years.

#64 johnfwd

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 05:38 AM

Finally, a city council with a vision and the willingness to enact policy implementing it!  As an aside, I noted in the FW Business Press article that many apparently believe the Water Gardens should be preserved (as is, I guess), because of its "sacred status."  Not sure what sacred status means in this context, but we've discussed the Water Gardens at length elsewhere in the Forum.  If sacred refers to the exclusive (i.e., less open to immediate access) aspect of the park, I agree to a limited extent.  But I also believe at least the south end of the Water Gardens should be made more public accessible, given the future expansion of hotel business in the area.



#65 RenaissanceMan

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 06:54 AM

Finally, a city council with a vision and the willingness to enact policy implementing it!  As an aside, I noted in the FW Business Press article that many apparently believe the Water Gardens should be preserved (as is, I guess), because of its "sacred status."  Not sure what sacred status means in this context, but we've discussed the Water Gardens at length elsewhere in the Forum.  If sacred refers to the exclusive (i.e., less open to immediate access) aspect of the park, I agree to a limited extent.  But I also believe at least the south end of the Water Gardens should be made more public accessible, given the future expansion of hotel business in the area.


I don't think that that was on reference to any thoughts on making improvements to the water gardens but a response to some who have gone so far as to suggest it as a site for a future hotel (an idea that has never been taken seriously by anyone).

#66 Volare

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 01:27 PM

So we need a lot more hotel rooms downtown and then we are gonna demolish the cc arena then build a new arena nowhere near all these new hotel rooms with no transit to connect the two. Yep, sounds about right.

#67 Fort Worthology

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:20 AM

So we need a lot more hotel rooms downtown and then we are gonna demolish the cc arena then build a new arena nowhere near all these new hotel rooms with no transit to connect the two. Yep, sounds about right.

 

The Fort Worth Way.


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#68 djold1

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:45 AM

 

So we need a lot more hotel rooms downtown and then we are gonna demolish the cc arena then build a new arena nowhere near all these new hotel rooms with no transit to connect the two. Yep, sounds about right.

 

Or, you could say that the downtown needs the convention center remodeling to justify new downtown hotels and at the same time make a case for new hotel space near the Will Rogers to cover the arena needs there. That way you get growth both ways...

 


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#69 cberen1

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 10:48 AM

 

So we need a lot more hotel rooms downtown and then we are gonna demolish the cc arena then build a new arena nowhere near all these new hotel rooms with no transit to connect the two. Yep, sounds about right.

 

The Fort Worth Way.

 

 

Aren't they drawing largely two different kinds of crowds?  Seems like CC space draws a lot of out of town visitors, and performance/sports venue space draws much more locally.



#70 mmiller2002

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 11:33 AM

How much use does the CC Arena get?  I don't know why, but I have the impression that the convention rooms get the most use.



#71 RD Milhollin

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 12:52 PM

FW Business Press editorial on the linking of new rodeo arena to demolition of downtown arena and Convention Center expansion: subterfuge:

 

http://fwbusinesspre...-is-a-sham.aspx



#72 360texas

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 01:10 PM

Looks like a duck, walks like a duck but its really SUBTERFUGE !

 

Who on the City Council is trying to pull this one off ?   Name (s) please.  Then we need to follow the money trail.


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#73 RenaissanceMan

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 02:28 PM

FW Business Press editorial on the linking of new rodeo arena to demolition of downtown arena and Convention Center expansion: subterfuge:
 
http://fwbusinesspre...-is-a-sham.aspx

I personally felt that this editorial was way off base. The two are connected in the sense that they are both current and or planned venues and have a role in the broader issues relating to Fort Worth's meetings, conventions and events, and taking one offline and bringing the other online does have certain implications for what events the city can host when changes/upgrades are brig made to either the Will Rogers campus or the convention center. Yes the consultant made reference to both in his report. Yes the City made reference to both when addressing that report and, separately, the new Will Rogers arena. But I think that any effort to paint the City as having directly linked the two in an effort to dupe or sell the public on either project is simply a case of reading way too much into things.

#74 McHand

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:18 PM

 

 

The city should also encourage Omni Hotels to expand its popular 614-room Convention Center hotel by another 400 rooms, the study says. If the Omni does not expand, the city should look to add a “third large hotel adjacent” to the Convention Center, the study, by Hunden Strategic Partners, says.

 

Is it too late to convert the T&P depot into a hotel? 


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#75 RD Milhollin

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 01:03 AM

The T&P Passenger Station has been sold as condos. The freight warehouse is rotting away with a couple of sub-floors filled with rainwater and trees growing out of the roof. There is an opportunity to build a new convention-based hotel on top of the new space to be constructed where the arena is today, or east of the convention center when Commerce Street is straightened out. I believe everyone is still waiting to hear about a boutique hotel where the bus station used to be at Commerce and 9th Streets.



#76 prideftw

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:17 PM

Who owns that freight warehouse? i don't understand why the city won't gut it and rebuild it from the inside out and make the 1st floor retail and lobby and the rest of the building hotel. In fact add five additional floors and some good lighting. This would be beautiful and make the Lancastor area look more Downtown



#77 McHand

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:25 PM

Someone named Cleopatra.  She won't sell and she won't maintain it.


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#78 prideftw

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:08 AM

Can't the city just seize the property? 



#79 RenaissanceMan

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:35 AM

Can't the city just seize the property? 


Not without prompting a major lawsuit. Cleopatra has done an amazing job of doing just enough to not be at risk of losing the property.

#80 RD Milhollin

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:01 AM

Cleopatra has done an amazing job of doing just enough to not be at risk of losing the property.

 

 

What has been done there besides legal wiggling? If this was a residential structure it would have been razed long ago. I am not favoring destroying the warehouse by any means, just curious at this point how the present owner is getting by with such obvious willful neglect. 



#81 JBB

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:32 AM

 
What has been done there besides legal wiggling?


The owner is paying taxes on a structure valued at $1.2 million. That goes away if the city seizes the property.

#82 renamerusk

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:38 AM

 

Can't the city just seize the property? 


Not without prompting a major lawsuit. Cleopatra has done an amazing job of doing just enough to not be at risk of losing the property.

 

 

 

Cleopatra has done an amazing job of doing just enough to not be at risk of losing the property.

 

What has been done there besides legal wiggling? ..... just curious at this point how the present owner is getting by

 

 

 

 

The owner is paying taxes on a structure valued at $1.2 million. That goes away if the city seizes the property.

 

 There are residential and other commercial properties that are value at or above $1.2m and the city has routinely given tax breaks in the past; so I don't think that is the hold up.  I think the lawsuit might be a bigger concern for the city.

 

What the city must do is to keep on to Ms. Cleo by stringently enforcing code violations and pile on every conceivable and onerous fine in its arsenal.

 

Simply put, bleed the hell out of her!



#83 prideftw

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 11:23 AM

Well they need to do just that. i wish i could find out who she was because she is really dumb for not getting this property fixed up and used. I mean that is a lot of money she could be making



#84 RenaissanceMan

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:48 PM

She's land banking. The MO so far has been to take it right up to the point where the City is forced to do something and then toss out a few renderings and inquire about working with the TIF on redeveloping the property or pumping out the floodwater from the basement and buy some more time. She's a wealthy dallasite (hey... that rhymes with parasite... hmm...) who doesn't seem to care too much about the role of that building in Fort Worth's efforts to revitalize its downtown.

#85 johnfwd

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:32 PM

Recall that the fate of the T&P Warehouse has been discussed at length in other threads.  Be that as it may, please recall a posting back on January 16, 2012 which stated that the rehab of the warehouse was on hold until the city completes the Lamar/Hemphill street connection that will run on the west side of the building.  Apparently the delay is being caused by the city, not the property owner.  Have no idea why the city is dragging its feet.

 

But a city can condemn any property that is a hazard to public health and safety.   The warehouse would be liable as an attractive nuisance if some kid got injured by falling glass or some other mishap either inside or outside that structure.



#86 Fort Worthology

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 02:10 PM

Yeah, that's what she says the hold up is now.  There's always another excuse.  Hemphill-Lamar is just the latest in a years-long line.


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#87 RenaissanceMan

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 03:46 PM

Curious if the gas well on her property is contributing to any of the hold up on the extension of Hemphill-Lamar.
Curious if the gas well on her property is contributing to any of the hold up on the extension of Hemphill-Lamar.

#88 John T Roberts

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 09:24 PM

I think this has drifted off topic.  There is another thread on the T&P Warehouse elsewhere.  Let's get back to the Convention Center Study.



#89 Austin55

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 09:19 PM

Despite plans to tear it down, there is demand to replace the 10,000+ seats in the arena for around $950,000.

 

http://www.star-tele...le27931219.html

 

The article mentions that 50 conventions are scheduled to use the arena in the next 5 years, so maybe not a bad investment. Perhaps it's also tied to the WNBA announcement?



#90 John T Roberts

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 07:25 AM

Regarding the WNBA announcement, I was wondering the same thing.



#91 Big Frog II

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 08:02 AM

Our Convention Center Arena is terrible for basketball.  Too many seats behind the basket and not enough between the goals.  I have been to 4 or 5 games there, and it is poorly built for sports.  



#92 renamerusk

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 08:35 AM

Despite plans to tear it down, there is demand to replace the 10,000+ seats in the arena for around $950,000....The article mentions that 50 conventions are scheduled to use the arena in the next 5 years, so maybe not a bad investment.

 

 With the WRMC arena coming, planners might be working on a transit plan to connect the existing and expanded convention space to the new arena.  For instance, build a designated convention connector train in Calhoun Street ("bad name historically) to connect the FWCC via Lancaster Avenue [Grand Avenue of Fort Worth] over the river and cross through Farrington to WRMC/Arena.

 

Here is where we ask why the Oak Cliff Street Car funds were allowed to slip away? No vision! 

 

I think two convention arenas is a luxury that the city need not pursue. Save the money renovating FWCC and use it for planning and seeking federal transit funds.



#93 Jeriat

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 09:04 AM

Our Convention Center Arena is terrible for basketball.  Too many seats behind the basket and not enough between the goals.  I have been to 4 or 5 games there, and it is poorly built for sports.  


It's the WNBA.

I don't think it would matter that much...

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#94 McHand

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 09:04 PM

 

Our Convention Center Arena is terrible for basketball.  Too many seats behind the basket and not enough between the goals.  I have been to 4 or 5 games there, and it is poorly built for sports.  


It's the WNBA.

I don't think it would matter that much...

 

 

Put a low-attended sport in a poor arena for the few who come to games, and give fans a below-par experience. Makes perfect sense!


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#95 RD Milhollin

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 10:10 PM

 

Despite plans to tear it down, there is demand to replace the 10,000+ seats in the arena for around $950,000....The article mentions that 50 conventions are scheduled to use the arena in the next 5 years, so maybe not a bad investment.

 

 

I think two convention arenas is a luxury that the city need not pursue. Save the money renovating FWCC and use it for planning and seeking federal transit funds.

 

 

Hmmm, On the one hand if the lights go up during one of those conventions the attendees may be reluctant to come back for another show/party.

 

On the other hand, if the downtown arena is going to be toast anyway , why throw good money after bad.

 

Middle ground?

 

There looked to be two options presented: repairing the damaged seats (sounds reasonable, eh?) or replacing all the seats (WHAT?!) 

 

Well, how about replacing the old arena seats with seats that could be used in the new "Horsie" arena on Montgomery? There are going to be many "regular" type seats for regular people who want to attend a rodeo or concert, while the box seats for sponsors/investors could be ordered from Lazy Boy or another appropriate source. I think it would be very wasteful to pay for 11k new seats only to throw them out after 5-10 years. 

 

Transit from Convention Center to new arena.... not in this decade, or the next. We are going to need a new generation of city leadership to make things like inner-city rail transit happen. The last generation has yet to make the TEXRail happen, given 20 years... 



#96 fortworthhorn

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 01:02 PM

 

 

Despite plans to tear it down, there is demand to replace the 10,000+ seats in the arena for around $950,000....The article mentions that 50 conventions are scheduled to use the arena in the next 5 years, so maybe not a bad investment.

 

 

I think two convention arenas is a luxury that the city need not pursue. Save the money renovating FWCC and use it for planning and seeking federal transit funds.

 

 

Hmmm, On the one hand if the lights go up during one of those conventions the attendees may be reluctant to come back for another show/party.

 

On the other hand, if the downtown arena is going to be toast anyway , why throw good money after bad.

 

Middle ground?

 

There looked to be two options presented: repairing the damaged seats (sounds reasonable, eh?) or replacing all the seats (WHAT?!) 

 

Well, how about replacing the old arena seats with seats that could be used in the new "Horsie" arena on Montgomery? There are going to be many "regular" type seats for regular people who want to attend a rodeo or concert, while the box seats for sponsors/investors could be ordered from Lazy Boy or another appropriate source. I think it would be very wasteful to pay for 11k new seats only to throw them out after 5-10 years. 

 

Transit from Convention Center to new arena.... not in this decade, or the next. We are going to need a new generation of city leadership to make things like inner-city rail transit happen. The last generation has yet to make the TEXRail happen, given 20 years... 

 

You are correct on transit.  From the most recent transportation meeting I attended, my understanding is that at this time there are no plans to increase frequency on the T from downtown to the cultural district area.

That could certainly change though.



#97 Austin55

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 08:14 PM

There is an opportunity to build a new convention-based hotel on top of the new space to be constructed where the arena is today, or east of the convention center when Commerce Street is straightened out. 

 

Austin recently unveiled plans to expand it's convention center, I think a similar situation would work well in Fort Worth. 

 

http://communityimpa...nter-expansion/



#98 BlueMound

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 09:04 PM

Interesting.
Urban park on the roof.

#99 NSFW

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Posted 17 September 2015 - 04:52 AM

Convention center hotel could be 1,000 rooms. 

 

http://dfw.cbslocal....-to-fort-worth/


Adrian


#100 Austin55

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Posted 17 September 2015 - 06:25 AM

Here's another thread where we've talked about that a bit more in depth. 

http://www.fortworth...vention +center







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