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#1 renamerusk

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 01:41 PM

With the Wright Amendment scheduled to expire soon and regional air service becoming more of the norm, there have been some interesting occurrences over the last 12 months that I am following and that I am thinking could provide the city with a unique opportunity to develop a regional airport. Here are some recent excerpts from articles about these occurrences:

"President Obama and Congress, in an effort to get control of the government's huge deficits, agreed on a budget deal that could cut projected defense spending by more than $1 trillion over the next decade; $350-500 billion in the first round now underway; and an additional $600 billion facing DOD in a second round".

"American's and American Eagle's parent, AMR Corp., has until June 26 to accept or reject its lease agreement with the airport, which the airline signed in October 2010. DFW received $130 million from AMR last year, all dictated by terms of its lease agreement. Assuming that American accepts the lease, it would have to pay what it owes the airport at that point. The airline is current on its post-petition obligation, a bankruptcy requirement".

If Carswell is significantly downsized or closed; and if AMR decides to save money by not renewing the gates used by American Eagle, should Fort Worth begin discussions now with AMR about the possibility of planning, financing construction and relocating those American Eagle gates at Carswell instead of allowing them to go to Love Field as a one of AMR's options? Is the western/southwestern half of the Metroplex large enough now to support a second regional airport?
What do you think?

Keep Fort Worth folksy

#2 Brian Luenser

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:57 PM

Could be outstanding. Concrete is very expensive these days. A comfortable distance from DFW traffic patterns.

I used to go to Amarillo frequently on business. (2000 to 2005) and for the first year I flew out of DFW. But then I started driving it. Door to door it took me 5 hours to drive and 3 to fly. And I saved the rental car expenses. Had I Fort Worth options, that would have been my choice.

Personally, I would like enough local competition to put Southwest Airlines out of business. (For the constant desire to ignore and change the Wright amendment). Dallas and Fort Worth had a great deal and shared the cost of DFW with the idea of all interstate flights utilizing it.
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#3 David Love

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 06:27 PM

Way too much going on to make any predictions on just the commercial side so a wag on the government side would still be a long time coming.

I think it would be a lose / lose for Fort Worth, with most of DFW falling within Fort Worth, so any traffic pulled would be mostly from DFW.

I don't see any regional airport replacing the industrial income that would be lost from losing Carswell, NAS/JRB.

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#4 renamerusk

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 11:16 PM

Could be outstanding. Concrete is very expensive these days. A comfortable distance from DFW traffic patterns.

I used to go to Amarillo frequently on business. (2000 to 2005) and for the first year I flew out of DFW. But then I started driving it. Door to door it took me 5 hours to drive and 3 to fly. And I saved the rental car expenses. Had I Fort Worth options, that would have been my choice.

Personally, I would like enough local competition to put Southwest Airlines out of business. (For the constant desire to ignore and change the Wright amendment). Dallas and Fort Worth had a great deal and shared the cost of DFW with the idea of all interstate flights utilizing it.


BL,

I can find nothing from your reply in which to disagree. Even as frequent as has been the case when you and I find ourselves coming to an issue from differing perspectives, I appreciate the fact of your considerable experience as a successful businessman; and so, it is very gratifying when we can find common ground as has been done here.

And now to points being raised by Mr. Love -

"I think it would be a lose / lose for Fort Worth, with most of DFW falling within Fort Worth, so any traffic pulled would be mostly from DFW....I don't see any regional airport replacing the industrial income that would be lost from losing Carswell, NAS/JRB".- DL

DL,

I am assuming that a post-bankrupt AMR may want to concentrate the efforts of its American Airlines(AA) division on routes between twenty or so major U.S. business markets and its international routes; and that AMR may divest itself of American Eagle (AE) to enhance cash on hand. I take AMR at its word when it says that it will reemerge as a smaller more competitive carrier. The all around upgrades in regional service (jets/labor) make routes like Fort Worth to Amarillo appealing and more in demand. An untethered AE in its on airport could fair very well as has been demonstrated by the Southwest/Love project; while concentrating AA considerable energy on business and international service will make a reemerged AA a very formidable competitor.

I am further assuming that NAS/JRB will be high on the list of defense facilities to be cut for a number of sound reasons. Transferring a DOD facility to a FAA facility has been done successfully in a number cities and has generated economic income that exceed the income generated by defense (Austin,TX). Except for the important responsibility of security, the input:output ratio of defense installations is not as significant in an economy the size of the Metroplex, but an airport is.

Even though DFW Airport will suffer some activity that began historically with the reopening of Love Field, it will be a more focus airport with the mission of being the business and international airport for North Texas and of attracting more international carriers. Geographically, an airport west of downtown Fort Worth will meet the needs and makes sense for the ever growing population in this part of the Metroplex. I think that Fort Worth will gain additional business as did Dallas/Love Field. Over all, a win/win for Fort Worth.

As BL suggested, the circumstances once thought unimaginable (AA bankruptcy) and the agreement (Wright Amendment) once thought to be honored have changed. Competition is on!

Keep Fort Worth folksy

#5 David Love

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:13 PM

I see no net gain for Fort Worth, a small amount of air traffic would move from DFW to (NAS Fort Worth JRB), but you'd still be short one military base and that would be bad, very bad for Fort Worth.

As BL suggested, the circumstances once thought unimaginable (AA bankruptcy) and the agreement (Wright Amendment) once thought to be honored have changed. Competition is on!

I think it would be interesting if AMR chose to up and move their headquarters, it's not out of the question and I'm sure it's being considered, it was headquartered in New York before 1979 and with the industry changing as it is DFW is not as important, location wise, as it once was. Not sure why so many seem to take pride in AMR permanently eliminating a large number of job classifications? Those jobs won't be coming back, at least not until someone does an embedded reporter type expose on work standards in say El Salvador or God forbid a rash of air disasters.

The current state of the airline industry was foreseen by most that had actually spent time in the industry, I know I was whining about it years ago on this very forum, my only surprise was that it took AMR as long as it did, my target guess made way back, was 2010. I think competition has played a very small part in the negative state of the industry today but with airlines shrinking and becoming more "efficient" I think the passenger is going to wind up on the short end of the stick, short end of the seat, and very short end of the leg room, short end on selection. Then guess what, prices start going back up. The large airlines are becoming more like low cost airlines and the low cost airlines are starting to mimic some features of the larger airlines, they have no choice if they want to survive. It's starting to remind me of picking a cell phone carrier ...and it's going to get worse, a lot worse.

If any government agency is eying Carswell JRB then the city of Fort Worth had best get on their social media marketing campaign horn and start sounding the alarm because the loss of a large military base in the best of economies can be summed up in a single word, devastating. Not only do you lose the jobs and income from the military and government entities homed there but you also lose the government contractors that surround the core of the base, then you lose all the mom and pop businesses surrounding them, then the chain stores, the neighborhoods get hit during the entire process.

From Wiki, just the military tenants, I'm sure I'm missing a lot: pdf map of base

Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base Fort Worth: Tenant Units

Naval Units:

Marine Corps units:

Air Force Reserve units:

Air National Guard units:

Army Reserve units:

Not sure what the income base of Love Field would be and I have no idea how you would calculate the financial totals of the military units, government contractors, supporting private companies surrounding the base to come up with a total, but I'd doubt a small regional airport would come anywhere close and it wouldn't be new income, it would be drained from DFW, so it would be a big loss for Fort Worth. Now tap on the loss of Alliance Maintenance Base.

We already have an airport west of DFW: Meacham, I see small jets flying in there all the time, I enjoy watching them fly in and out, very relaxing.

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#6 elpingüino

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 06:58 PM

Regardless of the naval air station's viability as a commercial airport, there is one big reason AMR won't shift American Eagle flights away from DFW: That would effectively sever those flights from the rest of American's network.

I looked through the timetables that list all flights for American and its partners, and here are the destinations whose only AMR service is on Eagle to/from DFW:


Abilene; Aguascalientes, Mexico; Alexandria, La.; Amarillo; Baton Rouge; Brownsville; Cheyenne, Wyo.; Chihuahua, Mexico; College Station; Columbia, SC; Columbus, Ga.; Corpus Christi; Durango, Colo.; Fort Walton Beach, Fla.; Grand Island, Neb.; Grand Junction, Colo.; Greenville, SC; Gulfport, Miss.; Houston Hobby; Jackson, Miss.; Joplin, Mo.; Killeen (Fort Hood); Lafayette, La.; Lake Charles, La.; Laredo; Lawton, Okla. (Fort Sill); Leon, Mexico; Longview; Lubbock; Mazatlan, Mexico; Midland/Odessa; Mobile, Ala.; Monroe, La.; Montgomery, Ala.; Morelia, Mexico; Queretaro, Mexico; Rapid City, SD; Roswell, NM; San Angelo; San Luis Potosi, Mexico; Savannah, Ga.; Shreveport, La.; Texarkana; Torreon, Mexico; Tyler; Veracruz, Mexico; Waco; Wichita Falls.
That is, for any passenger going to or coming from those 48 cities, if they're flying American, they must take an American Eagle flight through DFW. I don't have data on how many of them are connecting to somewhere else on American's network and how many are originating/ending at DFW; maybe someone who knows their way around SEC filings can find that. Yes, some are going to or from the Metroplex, so they would still take those flights whether they were leaving from DFW or Carswell or Love or wherever. But I would wager that the majority are just connecting at DFW, so if their Eagle flight dropped them at Carswell, they'd have to take a shuttle to DFW to continue traveling. Most, then, would probably pick a different airline -- or at least enough that AMR won't risk losing them just to save money on gate rental fees.

#7 David Love

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 07:31 PM

Regardless of the naval air station's viability as a commercial airport, there is one big reason AMR won't shift American Eagle flights away from DFW: That would effectively sever those flights from the rest of American's network.

I looked through the timetables that list all flights for American and its partners, and here are the destinations whose only AMR service is on Eagle to/from DFW:

Abilene; Aguascalientes, Mexico; Alexandria, La.; Amarillo; Baton Rouge; Brownsville; Cheyenne, Wyo.; Chihuahua, Mexico; College Station; Columbia, SC; Columbus, Ga.; Corpus Christi; Durango, Colo.; Fort Walton Beach, Fla.; Grand Island, Neb.; Grand Junction, Colo.; Greenville, SC; Gulfport, Miss.; Houston Hobby; Jackson, Miss.; Joplin, Mo.; Killeen (Fort Hood); Lafayette, La.; Lake Charles, La.; Laredo; Lawton, Okla. (Fort Sill); Leon, Mexico; Longview; Lubbock; Mazatlan, Mexico; Midland/Odessa; Mobile, Ala.; Monroe, La.; Montgomery, Ala.; Morelia, Mexico; Queretaro, Mexico; Rapid City, SD; Roswell, NM; San Angelo; San Luis Potosi, Mexico; Savannah, Ga.; Shreveport, La.; Texarkana; Torreon, Mexico; Tyler; Veracruz, Mexico; Waco; Wichita Falls.That is, for any passenger going to or coming from those 48 cities, if they're flying American, they must take an American Eagle flight through DFW. I don't have data on how many of them are connecting to somewhere else on American's network and how many are originating/ending at DFW; maybe someone who knows their way around SEC filings can find that. Yes, some are going to or from the Metroplex, so they would still take those flights whether they were leaving from DFW or Carswell or Love or wherever. But I would wager that the majority are just connecting at DFW, so if their Eagle flight dropped them at Carswell, they'd have to take a shuttle to DFW to continue traveling. Most, then, would probably pick a different airline -- or at least enough that AMR won't risk losing them just to save money on gate rental fees.

So what if they're losing money routes?

That's the great thing about a SouthWest routing system, they only provide service to places that are profitable, if your city isn't a profitable one you fly with someone else or drive.

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#8 renamerusk

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 07:49 PM

I see no net gain for Fort Worth, a small amount of air traffic would move from DFW to (NAS Fort Worth JRB), but you'd still be short one military base and that would be bad, very bad for Fort Worth. .....
If any government agency is eying Carswell JRB then the city of Fort Worth had best get on their social media marketing campaign horn and start sounding the alarm because the loss of a large military base in the best of economies can be summed up in a single word, devastating. Not only do you lose the jobs and income from the military and government entities homed there but you also lose the government contractors that surround the core of the base, then you lose all the mom and pop businesses surrounding them, then the chain stores, the neighborhoods get hit during the entire process.


I would like to direct you to a Star-Telegram Editorial published 2/5/12. I think that we can all agree that the base closures are going to happen to meet the Presidential and Congressional mandate to reduce the national debt. NAS/JRB will probably again come under evaluation. The question is not if but when does Fort Worth began to plan for a viable replacement for the existing airport infrastructure at NAS/JRB.

Panetta's announcement brings up serious business of base closures | Editorials | Fort Worth,...

#9 renamerusk

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:19 PM

..... Not only do you lose the jobs and income from the military and government entities homed there but you also lose the government contractors that surround the core of the base, then you lose all the mom and pop businesses surrounding them, then the chain stores, the neighborhoods get hit during the entire process.


The Star-Telegram Editorial cites an annual economic impact contributed by NAS/JRB at $1 Billion. As one guess, Dallas in its efforts to justify keeping operations at Love Field commissioned DMJM Aviation to do a 103p analysis:"Dallas Love Field Analysis Update 5/31/2006; DMJM Aviation. In Section 5 you will find that the analysis found that Love Field generated annually (2005) $4.3 Billion to the Dallas/Metro Area.

#10 elpingüino

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:24 PM

So what if they're losing money routes?

That's the great thing about a SouthWest routing system, they only provide service to places that are profitable, if your city isn't a profitable one you fly with someone else or drive.


I'm confused -- maybe I miscommunicated my point. AMR is making money on these American Eagle routes, but that profitability depends on the passengers being able to connect to the network -- it depends on those flights staying at DFW. Passengers who now fly, for example, College Station to DFW to Chicago, or San Luis Potosi to DFW to Nashville, will stop flying American if their Eagle flights move to Carswell.

Someone in the industry can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't know why any airline, whether it uses a hub-and-spoke network like American or a mostly direct-connection network like Southwest, would fly anywhere for very long if it isn't making money on those routes.

#11 renamerusk

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:26 PM

Regardless of the naval air station's viability as a commercial airport, there is one big reason AMR won't shift American Eagle flights away from DFW: That would effectively sever those flights from the rest of American's network...But I would wager that the majority are just connecting at DFW, so if their Eagle flight dropped them at Carswell, they'd have to take a shuttle to DFW to continue traveling. Most, then, would probably pick a different airline -- or at least enough that AMR won't risk losing them just to save money on gate rental fees.


To be clear, I was a strong opponent of reopening Love Field. However, the landscape today is nowhere like it was pre-2001; The Great Recession has seen to that. AMR will be significantly smaller but much more competitive once it reemerges. I don't think that AMR believes in the hub-system model anymore. I think what we are likely to see is AA become a "point to point" carrier between the major profitable markets while AE will continue to be a "point to point" carrier between the secondary profitable markets. I don't think that thru-connectivity will matter much in the New AMR. If you want to come to Dallas, well there is always Southwest; and if your destination is Fort Worth, you could fly on AE/Carswell; and that dude, is an choice I would LOVE to have!

#12 David Love

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:38 PM

It's a nice theory for discussion but I don't see it closing any time soon, if anything it'll be used as a template for consolidating other bases, "that's my hope," maybe even growing.

IF it ever does close it would be nothing short of a catastrophe for the city of Fort Worth. With airlines cutting back the way they are I think filling the existing gates in the metroplex is going to be a stretch for some time. I suspect a lot of Americans are going to wind up driving a lot farther to get to an airport that services their region, I think for many the drive from west Fort Worth to DFW would be a commute to envy.

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#13 renamerusk

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:39 PM


So what if they're losing money routes?

That's the great thing about a SouthWest routing system, they only provide service to places that are profitable, if your city isn't a profitable one you fly with someone else or drive.


I'm confused -- maybe I miscommunicated my point. AMR is making money on these American Eagle routes, but that profitability depends on the passengers being able to connect to the network -- it depends on those flights staying at DFW. Passengers who now fly, for example, College Station to DFW to Chicago, or San Luis Potosi to DFW to Nashville, will stop flying American if their Eagle flights move to Carswell.

Someone in the industry can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't know why any airline, whether it uses a hub-and-spoke network like American or a mostly direct-connection network like Southwest, would fly anywhere for very long if it isn't making money on those routes.


Exactly, they won't ..DL is right; and the proof is Southwest. You will not see SW flying to College Station and cities of the like. And if anything is certain, airlines are going to copy the model which has been proven to be most successful: The Southwest Model. Carswell is far better situated away from DFW than Love Field; and just awaits the right investment to make it a go; build it and they will come.

#14 renamerusk

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 09:04 PM

IF it ever does close it would be nothing short of a catastrophe for the city of Fort Worth. With airlines cutting back the way they are I think filling the existing gates in the metroplex is going to be a stretch for some time.....


DL, I think we are dealing with an "IF"; but I don't believe that a catastrophe for the city of Fort Worth will be viewed even more or less important than a catastrophe for any other U.S. city in this era of budget cutting. The tenor of our Congressional Representation is not helpful in the current administration and may put NAS/JRB at greater risk by reducing the hearing Texans get in the DOD. The question is or will be what to do with a closed installation if it comes under the budgetary ax.

Fort Worth, I believe, is a large enough city/metro with supporting demographics to take over the NAS/JRB infrastructure for air service use. Look, I believe that we will be getting a golden opportunity, if like Austin had when its military installation was closed, to make a negative (closure) into a positive (new airport).

By the way, here is my choice for an airport code: FWF.....Time will tell.

Keep Fort Worth folksy

#15 David Love

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 07:30 AM

I'm praying it doesn't close and that we have some representation with enough backbone that makes sure it doesn't.

With the real estate market as it is I really feel for those that own houses or work in the area, newspaper articles alone are enough to scare home buyers away and more than likely nix any plans for business expansions.

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#16 hannerhan

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 09:10 AM

AMR would never go to the NAS/JRB is there was service there...for the reasons mentioned above that involve cutting off their connections.

That said, Southwest might very well be a candidate for such an airport. They would pull people from as far as Abilene to the West, and given that it's a full hour from Love Field, probably wouldn't cannibalize too much of their current traffic there. And as mentioned, SWA's point to point system can easily incorporate adding a de novo location like that.

The thought of being able to hop on SWA right in Fort Worth makes me giddy.

#17 Doohickie

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 12:52 PM

They would pull people from as far as Abilene to the West, and given that it's a full hour from Love Field, probably wouldn't cannibalize too much of their current traffic there.

The thought of being able to hop on SWA right in Fort Worth makes me giddy.

You just contradicted yourself. You said there wouldn't be cannibalization of the Love Field market, then say you would abandon any thoughts of going to Love Field for a new Fort Worth airport. Tarrant County population is approaching 2 million; if you set up a new airport as an alternative to Love Field in the county, virtually all of that market would be chopped out of the Love Field business model.

The more likely scenario would be to put a wholly different airline like.... Jet Blue.... where they would go from being just another airline at DFW Airport to the featured airline at a new Tarrant field.

I used to take pride in the fact the AA was based at DFW, but long before the bankruptcy I came to dread flying them, even though I pretty much have to when I travel for work. Their ticket counter, gate, and flight personnel are just grouchy all the time. ALL. THE. TIME. Whenever we fly for personal reasons, we've used Southwest. Their prices are reasonable, they don't charge extra for checked bags, and they're happy to have me.
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#18 hannerhan

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 05:44 PM


They would pull people from as far as Abilene to the West, and given that it's a full hour from Love Field, probably wouldn't cannibalize too much of their current traffic there.

The thought of being able to hop on SWA right in Fort Worth makes me giddy.

You just contradicted yourself. You said there wouldn't be cannibalization of the Love Field market, then say you would abandon any thoughts of going to Love Field for a new Fort Worth airport.



I didn't contradict myself because I didn't say anything about whether I currently provide any business for Southwest at Love. The fact is that I rarely ever fly out of Love Field because I prefer the shorter drive of DFW, and because I purposefully avoid doing business in Dallas when I can do it closer. I have an irrational loyalty to Tarrant County, and will willingly suffer through the AA pains that you accurately describe, just so I can feel like I'm not selling out Fort Worth.

But given the opportunity to patronize SWA in Fort Worth, I would jump on it.

#19 David Love

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 07:09 PM

I was the LAN admin at AA's Flight Academy for one very long year.

The super sweet, super nice girls coming in had a 2 in 3 chance of not making it past week 3. The grumpy, chip on their shoulder, always angry but could feign a smile on command, they ALWAYS made it through to the the end of flight attendant training.

If I want happy flight attendants I fly Delta, if I'm flying through rough air or over hazardous areas I fly AA.

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#20 renamerusk

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 07:10 PM

AMR would never go to the NAS/JRB is there was service there...for the reasons mentioned above that involve cutting off their connections........
That said, Southwest might very well be a candidate for such an airport.


Never say never. (exception to follow)

In an interview with Bloomberg News, newly appointed AMR Corp's CEO Tom Horton predicts that AMR will reemerge as a leaner and stronger carrier with greater emphasis on its business and international network. His strategy, even though it has not been stated officially, would suggest that connections between the lower markets will not be a priority post-bankruptcy. For example, a passenger who lives in Wichita Falls or Waco and who flies Southwest in search of cheaper fares now drive to Love Field; this is a key component of what is known industry wide as the SWA model and where the start/end legs of travel are not provided. This model has been proven to be an unqualified success and is the envy of the industry.

Bankruptcy will give AMR the opportunity to discord its archaic connector model for its own version of the SWA model. AMR interest one year ago to sell American Eagle (AE) signaled its long held intention to deemphasize costly regional service in favor of a Hub to Hub strategy.

I am merely suggesting that a regional airport in West Fort Worth served by an independent AE or whoever would benefit the entire region; and that the city might want to begin planning for such a scenario given the real possibility of NAS/JRB being decommissioned as the American military is downsized.

The following exception – for one, SWA will never serve two airports in the same region and for more, SWA knows that Fort Worth will come to them as their model has proven.

FYI, you can read the Bloomberg News interview with AMR's Mr. Horton at the link below -

AMR's Horton Expects American Airlines to Leave Bankruptcy Without Merger - Bloomberg

#21 David Love

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 08:14 PM

I think Meacham and better yet Alliance Airports will pick up the regional slack and since AMR is shuttering Alliance, you have runways large enough for 767's and 777's, think about it.

I see Alliance happening before NAS/JRB, for one you'd have to kill a perfectly operational military base that's home to three branches of our military pumping 1 Billion Plus into Fort Worth's economy. Then you have Meacham which is under utilized in my opinion, then again I'm not sure what its capacity is or could be.

The big question I have is why are there no Army units stationed at Carswell?

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#22 renamerusk

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 11:01 PM

I think Meacham and better yet Alliance Airports will pick up the regional slack and since AMR is shuttering Alliance, you have runways large enough for 767's and 777's, think about it.....for one you'd have to kill a perfectly operational military base....you have Meacham which is under utilized in my opinion...The big question I have is why are there no Army units stationed at Carswell?


I think NAS/JRB is a better choice than Meacham or Alliance Airports for these reasons:

Meacham has developed into an excellent place for flight school training, small aircraft and corporate jet services. It could be a mistake to mix commercial air service with flights school students and corporate jets in the same location and unnecessarily hindering the already striving businesses operating there now.

Alliance is an internationally-known industrial airport; and even though AMR is closing down its maintenance operations there, it is possible and feasible to believe, given the readily available pool of aircraft engineers, that in time someone will setup there and provide outsourcing maintenance to the airline industry. Likewise, it could be a mistake to risk a change in the specialized and unique mission of what is widely held to be the premier U.S. inland port.

Why NAS/JRB? I believe it has the superior location to downtown, west and southwest Fort Worth, Johnson, Parker and Hood Counties over either Alliance or Meacham. And even though it is highly unlikely that a regional carrier would deploy super jet service, the runways at NAS/JRB are capable of handling large military aircrafts, the B-52's, fighter jets, and as has been demonstrated, NASA's Flight Shuttle.

As is painfully evident, the fate of NAS/JRB will be determined by Washington and not by Fort Worth. If or when the decision to close NAS/JRB is made, the city, as I see it, will have to choose to let it remain a shuttered wasteland, and admittedly scary thought; convert it into yet another industrial district, that it does not need; or to build a terminal along Alta Mere/Roaring Springs for a commercial airport that would generate a permanent economic impact to this region. I think what to do with a closed NAS/JRB would be an impossible problem to ignore and would take precedent over both Alliance and Meacham as neither would address the immediate problem.

#23 Doohickie

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 11:23 AM

I didn't contradict myself because I didn't say anything about whether I currently provide any business for Southwest at Love. The fact is that I rarely ever fly out of Love Field because I prefer the shorter drive of DFW, and because I purposefully avoid doing business in Dallas when I can do it closer. I have an irrational loyalty to Tarrant County, and will willingly suffer through the AA pains that you accurately describe, just so I can feel like I'm not selling out Fort Worth.

But given the opportunity to patronize SWA in Fort Worth, I would jump on it.

Regardless of whether you, personally, patronize SWA at Love Field, you are still part of the Tarrant County market of nearly 2 million potential fliers which would be cut off from the SWA Love Field market if they were to start operations at Carswell. They may gain a small number of fliers like yourself who don't drive to Dallas County, but overall, their business at Love would decrease by people flying out of Tarrant.
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#24 johnfwd

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 12:13 PM

Somewhat off the regional airport topic but in answer to DL's query as to why no army units at the Joint Naval Air Station. I used to teach at the Naval Air Station in Grand Prairie (alas, Dallas...) There were no army units there, only Air Force and Navy reserve. The Pentagon decided years ago to transfer much of that operation to the former Carswell AFB. This is an AF/Navy thing, no Army. Oh, I agree with DL that Alliance or Meacham are in line ahead of any other FW area airport that would rival DFW and Love Field.

#25 David Love

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 05:29 PM

Somewhat off the regional airport topic but in answer to DL's query as to why no army units at the Joint Naval Air Station. I used to teach at the Naval Air Station in Grand Prairie (alas, Dallas...) There were no army units there, only Air Force and Navy reserve. The Pentagon decided years ago to transfer much of that operation to the former Carswell AFB. This is an AF/Navy thing, no Army. Oh, I agree with DL that Alliance or Meacham are in line ahead of any other FW area airport that would rival DFW and Love Field.


I think the key point is we have Navy, Marines and Air Force effectively leveraging the base resources reducing the overall cost of ownership to all three branches. A great model of cost savings in an era of belt tightening.

So for your proposal to move forward, the Navy, Marines and Air Force would have to be shuffled to other bases, if anything I could see more units being moved to Fort Worth. I don't see anything at NAS/JRB that the Army could leverage, which is my guess as to why they concentrate their resources elsewhere.

To get a public airport at Carswell:
  • You'd need NAS/JRB vacated.
  • DFW and Love Field developing a gate shortage.
  • Meacham and Alliance off the table.
Any one of those, as of today, are a long shot, to get all three to line up, even more so.

I see Meacham's traffic increasing, and lots of open gates at Love Field due to AMR pulling back there and now even more to open at DFW for the same reason. Airports work on a meritocracy so trainees and silver haired gods of the sky often share the same airspace so I'm sure Meacham can deal with more traffic.

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#26 renamerusk

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 05:43 PM

......Oh, I agree with DL that Alliance or Meacham are in line ahead of any other FW area airport that would rival DFW and Love Field.


Tapping Alliance or Meacham as the more likely candidate for a regional airport to serve Fort Worth/Tarrant and its adjacent western/southern counties does nothing to solve the big problem Fort Worth would have if NAS/JRB is closed. Were either Alliance or Meacham in play, commercial air serve would already be in place at one of these locations. Given that a suddenly closed NAS/JRB problem would have little to do with Alliance or Meacham, the city would be compelled to come up with a permanent solution instead of doing nothing? If not a regional airport, what then?

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#27 renamerusk

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 06:33 PM

To get a public airport at Carswell:

  • You'd need NAS/JRB vacated.
  • DFW and Love Field developing a gate shortage.
  • Meacham and Alliance off the table.
Any one of those, as of today, are a long shot, to get all three to line up, even more so.


Bullet Point 1 - Speculative but a real possibility due to budget reduction; I am guessing that nearly every military installation will be evaluated and will have to justify its continuation. It will be, excuse the pun, a "war"

Bullet Point 2 – There has never been a gate shortage at DFW, yet Love Field continued to operate and flourish

Bullet Point 3 – Meacham and Alliance are really irrelevant and logistically too close to DFW and its immediate western markets HEB/Arlington. Any airport without specifically targeting the residents in West Fort Worth and environs would be dead politically.(IMO)


Because Fort Worth more so than Dallas was more overly protective and committed towards DFW and AMR, the city gave up its rights to expand its own airports. The landscape is very different today (AMR bankrupt, Wright Amendment overturned, the military being downsized). Before, I would have called these happenings a long shot.

Looking to the future, Fort Worth will very likely have a regional airport that is strategically located in the western/southern half of the Metroplex. Knowing what Dallas did to keep Love Field operating, Fort Worth will no longer remain on the sideline. If NAS/JRB becomes available, Fort Worth should jump on it!

#28 hannerhan

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 08:42 AM

Bullet Point 3 – Meacham and Alliance are really irrelevant and logistically too close to DFW and its immediate western markets HEB/Arlington. Any airport without specifically targeting the residents in West Fort Worth and environs would be dead politically.(IMO)


Totally agree. Who in the world is going to drive up I-35 to Alliance when DFW is the same distance from downtown FW? IF there is ever a chance of FW getting an airport, there has to be a real convenience advantage or it's dead in the water. The base seems to be the best shot.

#29 David Love

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 11:27 AM


Bullet Point 3 – Meacham and Alliance are really irrelevant and logistically too close to DFW and its immediate western markets HEB/Arlington. Any airport without specifically targeting the residents in West Fort Worth and environs would be dead politically.(IMO)

Totally agree. Who in the world is going to drive up I-35 to Alliance when DFW is the same distance from downtown FW? IF there is ever a chance of FW getting an airport, there has to be a real convenience advantage or it's dead in the water. The base seems to be the best shot.

Both of your arguments would make Meacham the obvious choice, both Meacham and Alliance are farther from DFW than Love Field, almost twice as far. Look at a map!

Both Meacham and Alliance would serve a larger flying population than the NAS/JRB location would, don't forget, you remove NAS/JRB you remove 60% plus of the flying population surrounding it because you've lost all the jobs in that area, $1,000,000,000.00 worth of jobs, the majority of the new jobs created by a small airport would be jobs that would give the residents no choice but to fly out of Love Field, assuming they could afford to fly at all.

Last Friday American reiterated its desire to close Alliance, why is this important to the City of Fort Worth? "Fort Worth owns the building and land and leases it to American." Bankruptcy terminates the lease ...so there's your airport, bought and paid for!

Then you have the human factor, the tendency to buy the lowest cost ticket regardless of many external influences so an extra 25 to 50 mile drive seems to be nothing if they're saving a hundred bucks on a ticket. That gives your future regional airport a much larger buffer zone location wise if you're courting proletariat level airlines, and proletariat is Ralph Nader's word choice, not mine.

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#30 renamerusk

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 07:58 PM

Both of your arguments would make Meacham the obvious choice, both Meacham and Alliance are farther from DFW than Love Field, almost twice as far. Look at a map!

Both Meacham and Alliance would serve a larger flying population than the NAS/JRB location would, don't forget, you remove NAS/JRB you remove 60% plus of the flying population surrounding it because you've lost all the jobs in that area, $1,000,000,000.00 worth of jobs, the majority of the new jobs created by a small airport would be jobs that would give the residents no choice but to fly out of Love Field, assuming they could afford to fly at all.


Addressing two of your points for now: (1) Distance Argument (2) Economic Argument

(1) Factually, the airport that is farthest from either DFW or Love Field is NAS/JRB, hands down and this along with the fact that the flying population surrounding or nearest to NAS/JRB has the greatest distance to drive to any airport in the region. These two facts in themselves make for the strongest argument for the need of an airport to serve this population and reasonable expectations that such an airport would be successful. (Taking a wider look at your map)

(2) DFW is the sixth largest economy in the U.S. having an estimated 2008 Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of $379 Billion. If he Star-Telegram estimates are to be believed, then NAS/JRB generates an annual economic impact of $1 Billion or .0026% to the regions overall GDP. Compare that with what Dallas estimates Love Field annually generates - a $4 Billion economic impact to the region's overall GDP.

Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, Texas GDP - Gross Domestic Product - GDP | EconPost

In both instances, the distance away from DFW and Love Field favors NAS/JRB for obvious reasons; and the expected economic impact of a regional airport would more than offset the lost of a military installation in our regional economy. Military personnel by nature of their service are transient workers; while airport personnel are stable to a region

You do understand that NAS/JRB is a massively downsized version of what it once was; and we can all reasonably agree that the DFW economy has continued to be among the best nationally even with a considerably smaller Carswell.

#31 David Love

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 10:11 AM

NAS/JRB has been in it's current configuration since 1994. NAS/JRB is pumping money into the Fort Worth economy today, it will still be pumping money into the economy two years from now. Alliance is about to stop and could actually become a drain on the city since it's owned by Fort Worth, land and building. As airport related issues go, if the Metroplex really "needs" another airport, Alliance will be the only choice in the short term.

As of today, people in West Fort Worth drive right by DFW to take flights out of Love Field, if distance was the driving force behind which airport people chose 60% of the Metroplex would never fly out of Love Field, I doubt the airport could exist on just the people with the shortest drive.

Everything about NAS/JRB is a what if scenario, we already have "two" major airports, the reason DFW is where it is was due to it's centralized location, "it's equally inconvenient to everyone," Love Field was an accident. Airlines are shrinking, SouthWest is pulling back in some markets because they've realized they can't make money on more and more legs, and as airlines totally stop serving some markets it's going to impact SouthWest even more.

One option that may be on the table in the future, big maybe: Move the military functions of NAS/JRB to Alliance and then you might get your airport close to your house, but that's if you could come up with why it would be cost effective to move an entire military installation, I know your best case is to close it. What most don't realize is most military installations have the potential to become Superfund sites once they enter the public domain, no one knows what it's going to take to make that place environmentally safe for the public, it's been there since 1942. I've worked on bases that had sections that looked like Chernobyl housing, you could drive through but would be arrested if your vehicle stopped due to contamination levels, I'm talking bases in the US, in the middle of major population areas.

Investments in the Metroplex's highway infrastructure is exponentially more important than a 3rd hub.

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#32 renamerusk

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 06:41 PM

.... NAS/JRB is pumping money into the Fort Worth economy today,... Alliance is about to stop and could actually become a drain on the city since it's owned by Fort Worth, land and building....As of today, people in West Fort Worth drive right by DFW to take flights out of Love Field,....Everything about NAS/JRB is a what if scenario,...." Love Field was an accident....Move the military functions of NAS/JRB to Alliance....

First, I would like to go on the record as not advocating the closure of NAS/JRB; but as suggesting what could be done with the installation should it be closed by the Pentagon.

The point that NAS/JRB pumps money into the Fort Worth economy is not in dispute. As in previous rounds of base closures, the Pentagon is tasked with deciding what is in the best interest of the national defense; not what is in the best interest of a local economy. In fact, arguing local economics would not be a strong argument as studies have shown that NAS/JRB contributes the smallest percentage to its local economy than does it any other Texas installation to its local economy.

Relocating or shifting NAS/JRB is a non issue; and certainly one that I have never advocated. Can we agree that the final decision will not be Fort Worth's to make?

I also believe that the prospects for Alliance are not as bleak as are being portrayed. The void will and can be filled by other private companies in the airline maintenance industry. A reemerged AMR will probably continue to avail itself to maintenance being outsourced at Alliance, only they will be just another customer.

American Airlines' maintenance base has been mainstay at Alliance Airport | American Airli...

As for Love Field being an accident, I am not sure of the validity of that point. The revival of Love Field was based on two principles: low fares and convenience. If anything, Love Field is strong evidence that pricing and convenience can be a stronger incentive for building a robust airport than centralization. I see no reason why the same principles practiced at Love Field can not be applied at NAS/JRB if the circumstances arise.

IMO, a once closed NAS/JRB would be initially a great dilemma for the city but soon after seen as a great opportunity to make something permanent and robust for this section of the region.

#33 johnfwd

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:39 PM

As a brief aside from the issue of a regional airport in Fort Worth, I felt the desire to comment about the economic viability of NAS/JRB. I haven’t any revenue figures to support the view one way of the other as to how Fort Worth has benefitted from NAS/JRB (and would thereby lose out significantly if the Pentagon closes the facility). But I suspect that NAS/JRB hardly compares to the former Carswell Air Force Base in terms of its economic impact (especially so during the SAC heydays of the Cold War). I do remember the severe adverse impact that the closure of Carswell had on the city’s west side including the River Oaks area. NAS/JRB, as I understand it, is more of a part-time military base (weekend warriors with a relatively small permanent staff). If that's the case, then NAS/JRB may actually be a long-term drag on Fort Worth's economy because it is taking up land space that could be used for a regional airport or further industrial/commercial development. If I'm not correct in my anecdotal analysis and conclusions, feel free to correct me.

#34 renamerusk

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:55 PM

.... If I'm not correct in my anecdotal analysis and conclusions, feel free to correct me.


John,

I think that your observations are spot on. I and my family have a personal connection with Carswell that goes back to the 50's. Yes, it was a much different place back then than today; and I have wonderful memories of visiting the base monthly for many years hearing the roar of the jets and bomber; and seeing thousands of airmen in perfectly uniformed. Today, the hospital is a federal prison and all the military housing has been removed. It is but a shell of what was at the time greatest.

I do think that space can be returned to the economic engine that it once was but with a different purpose - Civil Aviation.

#35 Brian Luenser

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:57 PM

And of course, not to forget, that Carswell Air Force Base brought John Denver to live in Fort Worth. (His dad was an Air Force Pilot stationed here.) John later said it instilled in him his love for flying.

As most know, John Denver then when to Arlington Heights High School (Like Lee Harvey Oswald) and worked at restaurants on Camp Bowie. (Prompting his Dad to warn him to leave his guitar at home as he needed to get serious about making a living.)
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#36 David Love

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 08:23 PM

I believe the whole Alliance situation is going to turn out a bit more complex than most realize.

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#37 renamerusk

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:56 PM

I believe the whole Alliance situation is going to turn out a bit more complex than most realize.


Interesting observation.

FYI, found this timely news brief to the debate at hand -

Sky Talk: Texas airports form a new association

#38 David Love

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:19 AM


I believe the whole Alliance situation is going to turn out a bit more complex than most realize.


Interesting observation.

FYI, found this timely news brief to the debate at hand -

Sky Talk: Texas airports form a new association

Translation - Texas airport super pac.

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#39 renamerusk

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 12:39 AM

Information is starting to trickle in about proposed cuts at NAS/JRB. Could this be the news that will see the city contemplating contingency plans for NAS/JRB as it continues to shrink?.

Air Force plan would remove transport planes from Naval Air Station Fort Worth | Local New...

I say lets offer a deal to Washington – swap NAS/JRB for a regional airport. Just for fun here is an image of the airport in Toledo, Ohio; and city one could say is comparable in some ways to Fort Worth

URS Corporation > Projects > Infrastructure > Facilities > Airport Terminals & Hangars > Toledo Express Airport Terminal Development Master Plan

#40 David Love

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 10:40 AM

Information is starting to trickle in about proposed cuts at NAS/JRB. Could this be the news that will see the city contemplating contingency plans for NAS/JRB as it continues to shrink?.

Air Force plan would remove transport planes from Naval Air Station Fort Worth | Local New...

I say lets offer a deal to Washington – swap NAS/JRB for a regional airport. Just for fun here is an image of the airport in Toledo, Ohio; and city one could say is comparable in some ways to Fort Worth

URS Corporation > Projects > Infrastructure > Facilities > Airport Terminals & Hangars > Toledo Express Airport Terminal Development Master Plan


Think it's a bit premature to start closing the base, nothing would start for 2 years and it's theoretically just 8 aircraft out of the 136th Wing. We'll be hearing a lot more possibilities floated in the next couple years. That's the nice thing about a Joint Reserve Base, some branches fair better during expansions, some better during downsizing, the only Achilles heal it has is no Army.

...I believe NAS / JRB has a few secrets to disclose before they'll be ready to close or move it any time soon.

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#41 renamerusk

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 02:09 PM

Think it's a bit premature to start closing the base, nothing would start for 2 years....


Instead of premature, I prefer to use the term prudent.

A news of a financially struggling AMR was well publicized. Fort Worth as well as many of us was hoping for the best and we collectively took what can be viewed as a wait and see approach. Clearly the actuality of the AMR bankruptcy and its timing caught the city and us off guard. Agree?

Dallas, approve of it or not, never approached the fate of AMR as did Fort Worth having a totally different approach to the impending 2014 end of the Wright Amendment than Fort Worth. Whether it will admit it or not, Dallas likely views the AMR bankruptcy as both a stroke of good luck [or the payoff of its conspiracy] and a validation of its strategy to upgrade Love Field/SWA. As this modest 3-paged pdf documents

lovefield012909.pdf (application/pdf Object)

The good news, timeswise, coming from the downsizing of NAS/JRB is that it provides our city ample time to plan for and develop a combination regional airport/air guard facility as has been done in Jackson, Mississippi. Hopefully by now, the shock of the AMR bankruptcy has worn off. Now more than ever, it is prudent that Fort Worth not remain on the sidelines and join in as an aggressive participant in the reality of what is today's airline industry model.

#42 David Love

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 12:19 PM

I don't see AMR's bankruptcy as a disaster or even unforeseen, considering every one of its major competitors has filed and emerged from bankruptcy at least once, it had to happen and as I said before I'm surprised it took this long.

If you look at all the small airports on a map it would appear the Tarrant county side has the monopoly, Fort Worth already has DFW Airport but it's the loss of Alliance I'm most worried about, most of the facility was built for wide bodies and almost all wide body maintenance is now outside the US so finding a replacement use for it might be a challenge.

Any airport in or near Tarrant County has the potential to become a regional airport, the only problem I see is finding a company in the airline industry strong enough to anchor a regional airport.

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#43 renamerusk

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 09:11 PM

I don't see AMR's bankruptcy as a disaster or even unforeseen, considering every one of its major competitors has filed and emerged from bankruptcy at least once, it had to happen and as I said before I'm surprised it took this long......

DL,

I too do not see AMR's bankruptcy as a disaster. Instead it may be seen as a period of adverse circumstances from which will come the opportunity to define for itself a new mission. It also may be seen as an opportunity for Fort Worth, something that I have been stipulating throughout this blog.

As an outsider, I was really pulling for AMR because I was watching a company that seemed to me to be fighting to do the right thing while all of its major competitors did not. Instead of being surprised, I was sadden and disillusioned , but found a greater respect for CEO Arpey when the good fight was ultimately lost.

Taking A Moral Stand, American Airlines CEO Retires With No Severance Package As Company Goes Bankrupt | ThinkProgress

#44 David Love

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 11:08 AM


I don't see AMR's bankruptcy as a disaster or even unforeseen, considering every one of its major competitors has filed and emerged from bankruptcy at least once, it had to happen and as I said before I'm surprised it took this long......

DL,

I too do not see AMR's bankruptcy as a disaster. Instead it may be seen as a period of adverse circumstances from which will come the opportunity to define for itself a new mission. It also may be seen as an opportunity for Fort Worth, something that I have been stipulating throughout this blog.

As an outsider, I was really pulling for AMR because I was watching a company that seemed to me to be fighting to do the right thing while all of its major competitors did not. Instead of being surprised, I was sadden and disillusioned , but found a greater respect for CEO Arpey when the good fight was ultimately lost.

Taking A Moral Stand, American Airlines CEO Retires With No Severance Package As Company Goes Bankrupt | ThinkProgress



State Sen. Davis wants state fund used to save American Airlines jobs

Alliance in the short term is going to take precedence, for at least the next year anyway...

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#45 renamerusk

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 11:03 PM

Alliance in the short term is going to take precedence, for at least the next year anyway...


And in the short term, IMO, Fort Worth focusing on Alliance is being short sighted all the while as Dallas' Love Field by 2014 is set to become the primary short haul regional airport for North Texas. It is becoming more evident that AMR's operations from DFW will be primarily long haul business and international routes which are their most profitable streams of revenue and that AMR is willing to cede the more competitive short haul service to other carriers. By 2014 Fort Worth to Houston will most likely require a trip thru Dallas.

I too read the S-T article about State Senator Wendy Davis wanting local and state tax incentives to maintain AMR's alliance operations. While I generally support most if not all of what the senator does, I believe that her efforts are likely to be unpersuasive to AMR who it seems is strongly committed to the internal plans and timetable that it has set for itself to reemerge out of bankruptcy. One can reasonably assume that this is the case from statements attributed to Mayor Price and reported in the same article

Since American's parent company, AMR Corp., filed for bankruptcy in November, Price said that the city has sent a "clear message" that it is willing to do what it can to keep the Alliance facility open…….."Unfortunately, there isn't any incentive that would change the decisions made by American," Price said in a statement on Monday. "The question is not so much what we can do for American Airlines, but what we can do for those employees."- Fort Worth Star-Telegram (2-27-12)

Mayor Price's analysis of the situation appears more grounded in reality than does Senator Davis'. It is probably in the best interest of both the city and Alliance that any incentives package be directed to efforts to relocate one of a number of private Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul (MRO) companies to Alliance as a replacement hoping that it would employ the workers being displaced by AMR.

However, I still maintain that Alliance is fundamentally immaterial to the issue with regards to NAS/JRB and the ultimate use of that property believing that a regional airport or a concurrent military/civil scheme are and will be better uses of a downsized NAS/JRB that even today and as being projected will become in the future underused. I do wish that in this case, Fort Worth had the vision of Dallas.

#46 David Love

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 01:18 PM

Alliance trade zone leads U.S. for fourth time in five years

I was not aware of this interesting fact, 4 Billion, which is slightly ahead of Chicago in close second.

...is this "just" Alliance?


Here's one of the huge issues facing NAS/JRE, it's been a military base since the 40's serving many, many military industrial roles and as most know, military entities are not held to the same standards as even the worst public companies. I did my industrial engineering undergrad work on a military base and for a chemical safety project I pulled up chemical spills, PCB no go zones and the military equivalent of super fund sites. Everything was public to the military and all areas disclosed and documented, then I compared the lists to my shops and living areas, I discovered about 50% of the issues in areas I was aware of, were not on the lists they were supposed to be listed on. Turned out, one was being used as an outdoor break area in my work location and was on no list anywhere.

Here's an article about an Orange County building built on top of a site used to make drilling equipment, I'd consider that use fairly tame hazard wise compared to military air operations. I suspect it will be a lot like asbestos cleanups, it's often cheaper and sometimes safer to leave it alone and this opens the plethora of possibilities where the future of NAS/JRB is concerned.

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#47 renamerusk

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 06:54 PM

[Alliance Airport] I was not aware of this interesting fact, 4 Billion, which is slightly ahead of Chicago in close second....

Here's one of the huge issues facing NAS/JRE, it's been a military base since the 40's serving many, many military industrial roles and as most know, military entities are not held to the same standards as even the worst public companies...it's often cheaper and sometimes safer to leave it alone and this opens the plethora of possibilities where the future of NAS/JRB is concerned.


This fact as the headline cites is a statistic that the Star-Telegram and other regional newspapers have reported annually; and is not surprising. It is a statistic that Fort Worth is obviously very proud of. It is also a fact that dispels the notion that all is gloom and despair for Alliance because of the AMR closure. What is interesting is that according to this statistic, Alliance is on par with Dallas Love Field when it comes to its economic impact on the region. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

As for the huge issues facing NAS/JRB, I cite for starters Austin, TX, Orlando, FL and Cincinnati, OH as cities that have been successful in converting former military bases into civil aviation reuse. In those cases it was not thought to be cheaper or safer to leave the property fallow. Has it been established that NAS/JRB is anymore a potential super fund site than other former military installations?; and the EPA administers a "Five Point Plan" specifically created for DOD transfer to the local community. Besides, I imagine that there is ample room along Roaring Springs Road west of Alta Mere Drive to construct a terminal that would presumably sidestep such an issue as the area that I refer to was formerly used for base housing and recreation (golf course) and today has been developed into a string of retail shopping centers. One can assume that any contamination that was there before has been removed.

Imagine the double barrel economic impact of a $4B industrial Alliance in the northern half of the city and of a $2B civil aviation/military NAS/JRB in the western half of the city.

Here are more examples, both national and international of military to civil conversion -

Ex-military Bases — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net

#48 David Love

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 03:39 PM

Yes, there are bases that have transitioned and I'd guess the cost was not insignificant, but what you don't see are the bases where issues were uncovered that took the base off the table at a random point in the vetting process. It's never, "We've finally discovered a place where we can dump all the stuff we still have from Love Canal," it's generally just some joint committee decision that gives all the credit to state reps and things are quiet until the next round of budget cuts.

If you could keep the existing military units there or grow them AND integrate a public airport on part of the property, that would be a huge win for Fort Worth. ..but nixing the base entirely would be a mistake. The only shopping centers next to DFW are in the bedroom communities around the airport, not sure about Love Field, last time I flew out of there I would not have stopped anywhere near it, could be totally different now.

How many small airports are in and around Tarrant County? You look up airport on a map and the west side of the metroplex appears to have a monopoly.

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#49 johnfwd

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 04:38 PM

For DL: Well, there’s Spinks Airport south of Fort Worth. No comparison to Meacham or even Alliance, but it’s making improvements. Check out the city’s website and a nice video on the airport.

http://fortworthtexa...viation/spinks/

#50 renamerusk

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 09:25 PM

Yes, there are bases that have transitioned ....

If you could keep the existing military units there or grow them.....

The only shopping centers next to DFW are in the bedroom communities around the airport, not sure about Love Field...

You look up airport on a map and the west side of the metroplex appears to have a monopoly.


DL, "don't know exactly where you are going in your first paragraph". Are you suggesting that NAS/JRB has been used as a dumping ground for contaminated waste and by-products from other federal installations? I would hope and believe that Fort Worth and Texas would be aware of such a policy; and would not have allowed the tremendous growth along the Alta Mere corridor to have occurred should that had been the case. Even the gobermint (EPA) would have not allowed it. For clarification and for a second time, unless otherwise proven not to be, the Alta Mere/Roar Springs Corridors should be presumed clear of any contaminants.

To your subsequent points -

Keeping NAS/JRB as is; is emphatically out of the control of the city. It is federal land that does not come under the jurisdiction of Fort Worth. I do suspect that someday NAS/JRB will be closed completely, if not this round then in a future round. We should want every military decision to be predicated on what is best for national defense; not what is a huge win for any particular local economy. Unless one realizes and accepts this fundamental principal, then a community cannot move on and begin to develop a set of contingency plans for the future reuse of a vast piece of land within its vicinity. There is nothing that equals the potential to be offered to the city then some form of civil aviation at NAS/JRB.

If NAS/JRB is shuttered or is spared but significantly reduced in scope, an integrated military and civil use of NAS/JRB is a plan that I have also advocated. Given the overwhelming successes that have occurred at post military installations in other cities, what would you propose to do if presented with a similar opportunity?

DFW's original master plan provide for the purchase of a large amount of surrounding land specifically to prevent encroachment. Development however, quickly sprung up at the fringes in Grapevine, Las Colinas and Centerport. Love Field is surrounded by and abundance of thriving and compatible retail and residential usage which goes to support my prediction for the economic impact to be realized should NAS/JRB be repurposed into civil aviation.

Finally, when allowing for scheduled passenger airports only, here is the arithmetic: Dallas County – Love Field (100%); DFW (50%). Tarrant County – DFW (50%). West side monopoly is a myth.

Just for fun, here is another regional airport currently being developed - Joliet, IL (Suburban Chicago):
Welcome to the South Suburban Airport Website




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