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#101 Doohickie

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 01:10 PM

I think it is time for our mayor to consider firing the current administration at The T.


I think you don't know how The T works. The T is governed by a nine-member board of directors with eight appointed by the Fort Worth City Council and one by Tarrant County Commissioners Court. The mayor can't fire them.
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#102 renamerusk

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 05:09 PM


I think it is time for our mayor to consider firing the current administration at The T.


I think you don't know how The T works. The T is governed by a nine-member board of directors with eight appointed by the Fort Worth City Council and one by Tarrant County Commissioners Court. The mayor can't fire them.


So you are saying that they are unaccountable to anyone. Are you really okay with that?

#103 Doohickie

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 11:29 PM

That's not what I said at all. I said they are accountable to the city council and the Tarrant County Commissioners Court. And I made no comment on the accountability structure; I just stated fact.
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#104 cberen1

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 06:23 AM

Still, someone would need to spearhead an overhaul. Wouldn't the mayor be the most likely champion of such an effort?

I'm not suggesting that the change needs to happen. I haven't formed my opinion on it yet. But I do think the mayor has a role in forcing that change if required.

#105 cberen1

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:18 AM

Not that I want to re-hash old discussions, but I recently had a chance to ask Mike Moncrief about the streetcar issue and his vote. His comment was that at the time he didn't feel like the city had the money in the coffers to pursue it. I didn't push on the federal money issue or anything else. I sensed that this was not the first time he'd been asked and pushing would have been impolite.

That being said, he offerred up the completely unsolicited opinion that the T would have been unable to manage the project or maybe anything except busses. His statement echoed almost word for word the talking point that the T is basically just a big bus company and that leadership change might be needed if it is to be responsible for anything else. He also suggested that a regional rail transportation authority that combines the efforts in Tarrant, Denton and Dallas might make the most sense.

I disagree on the combined entity but agree on the leadership issues at the T.

#106 Doohickie

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 10:02 AM

That's a thought. The problem is that DART already does rail now, so what I see is a conflict and lack of cooperation from the the Ft Worth side if they tried to expand into Tarrant County. It would be tough to sell it to Tarrant County when they already have The T, even if DART was performing a different mission (rail).
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#107 Electricron

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 10:21 AM

Not that I want to re-hash old discussions, but I recently had a chance to ask Mike Moncrief about the streetcar issue and his vote. His comment was that at the time he didn't feel like the city had the money in the coffers to pursue it. I didn't push on the federal money issue or anything else. I sensed that this was not the first time he'd been asked and pushing would have been impolite.

That being said, he offerred up the completely unsolicited opinion that the T would have been unable to manage the project or maybe anything except busses. His statement echoed almost word for word the talking point that the T is basically just a big bus company and that leadership change might be needed if it is to be responsible for anything else. He also suggested that a regional rail transportation authority that combines the efforts in Tarrant, Denton and Dallas might make the most sense.

I disagree on the combined entity but agree on the leadership issues at the T.

I would like to add the mayor was probably correct stating the City didn't have the money to fund its share of the streetcar project. Look at the amount of money (over $40 Million) Dallas had to allocate just to qualify for $25 Million Tiger funds. Most of that local funding came from a DART account, never-the-less it was money granted by DART for specific Dallas projects. I really don't think Fort Worth had that much money lying around in an account unallocated. But I'll admit FWTA did have that much lying around in an account unallocated, but it was planned to be spent on TexRail. The argument wasn't whether to build the streetcar at all as much as what should be built first. And I think most council members favored TexRail over the streetcar.

The only way Fort Worth (ie FWTA) could finance both rail projects at the same time is to increase its sales tax revenues. That means finding another source of money (increasing other taxes) to replace the half cent sales tax for crime prevention for the city. The required referendum for the sales tax change would have complicated matters, and definitely set back the time to find local revenues to match the Tiger grant past the deadline.

I would like to ask another question, does Fort Worth really need a modern streetcar? Couldn't a cheaper to build and operate historic, or replica, streetcar work in Fort Worth? Cities with historic streetcars include San Francisco, Dallas, Little Rock, Memphis, New Orleans, and Tampa.

#108 cberen1

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:14 AM

I would like to ask another question, does Fort Worth really need a modern streetcar? Couldn't a cheaper to build and operate historic, or replica, streetcar work in Fort Worth? Cities with historic streetcars include San Francisco, Dallas, Little Rock, Memphis, New Orleans, and Tampa.


I only just thought of this as it relates to streetcars, but I recently had the chance to choose between trains and busses in an unfamiliar place. I was in Paris for a little bit and got to choose from lots of public transportation options as a visitor with no familiarity with the city. We talked about hopping on the busses and decided that we would opt to just figure out the Tube. I just felt more comfortable that I could get where I wanted on a train and if I messed up I get back where I had been.

I think the same concept applies to streetcars (although it's not a perfect corollary). People have said it over and over again, busses and streetcars aren't the same thing. I've used the streetcars in San Fran and in New Orleans. I don't believe I would have ever gotten on a bus in either city.

In five to ten years I think we will really regret not having done the streetcar project when we could have. The near southside, northside and west 7th would have been much more accessible to downtown with the streetcar circulator in place.

#109 AndyN

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 11:36 AM

Part of the study that was underway when the plug was pulled included financing. As I recall, the sources for adequate funding were identified and a financing outfit had sent a letter of interest to the city to underwrite the project. Additionally, the route established had one of the best cost per rider mile ratios of any that were funded. I think killing the project based on funding was the easy excuse.
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#110 Russ Graham

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:08 PM

Here's the "synopsis report" of the engineering study from Phase 1 & 2:

http://fortworthtexa...opsisreport.pdf

Part of the study was to look at the governing structure - there were 5 options looked at, including having the City directly run the streetcar, or letting The T run the show.

The recommended option was a "Local Government Corporation" separate from the city and the T.

So, I would say that the FWTA's percieved inability to run a streetcar is a pretty lousy argument - since this was addressed in the synopsis report.

#111 Russ Graham

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:15 PM

I only just thought of this as it relates to streetcars, but I recently had the chance to choose between trains and busses in an unfamiliar place. I was in Paris for a little bit and got to choose from lots of public transportation options as a visitor with no familiarity with the city. We talked about hopping on the busses and decided that we would opt to just figure out the Tube. I just felt more comfortable that I could get where I wanted on a train and if I messed up I get back where I had been.

I think the same concept applies to streetcars (although it's not a perfect corollary). People have said it over and over again, busses and streetcars aren't the same thing. I've used the streetcars in San Fran and in New Orleans. I don't believe I would have ever gotten on a bus in either city.

In five to ten years I think we will really regret not having done the streetcar project when we could have. The near southside, northside and west 7th would have been much more accessible to downtown with the streetcar circulator in place.


Great examples, I completely agree.

#112 Russ Graham

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:40 PM

But I'll admit FWTA did have that much lying around in an account unallocated, but it was planned to be spent on TexRail. The argument wasn't whether to build the streetcar at all as much as what should be built first. And I think most council members favored TexRail over the streetcar.


FWTA's budget was not (to my knowledge) proposed as a source of funds for streetcar construction. Construction was to be funded almost entirely through the federal grant, plus proceeds from the TRV and Near Southside TIFS. None of which appear to conflict with the TexRail funding... So what am I missing?

#113 Phil Phillips

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:37 PM

No "choice" riders are going to use a bus. Bus riders, by definition, don't have cars or can't afford to operate them. The key is to lure us car owners to use public transportation. That means clean, safe and convenient, with no bi-polar fellow travelers. Public transportation works in cities in which "normal" working people and students can travel. I've used public transportation in Boston and many European cities. NY is marginal (Ok in Manhatten, forget about Queens or the Bronx); Chicago is scary. Why can Dublin begin a subway system, in the middle of an economic crisis, with a bit over a million souls and Fort Worth can't build a decent system?

#114 ron4Life

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:02 AM

You know, there are a lot of spots to develop close to downtown but the community wants to expand outward in a sporadic kind of way. It's definitely time for Fort Worth to revisit the streetcar conversation.

#115 Joshw

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:27 AM

You know, there are a lot of spots to develop close to downtown but the community wants to expand outward in a sporadic kind of way. It's definitely time for Fort Worth to revisit the streetcar conversation.


The Powers That Be don't believe that to be the case. Perhaps when we have a new City Council we can revisit it....

#116 Jeriat

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:48 PM

I rode The T yesterday (had to thanks to someone texting and driving, smashing into the back of the car) from SWFW to Downtown. We went through Rosedale and College Ave and I see plenty being built or plenty of space open for redevelopment.

Something
needs to happen....

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#117 Austin55

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 04:53 PM

Something connecting Downtown, So7 and the stockyards would be used by me. I really want to take a good visit to those areas again, but doing so by car is just so impractical and I just park at TCC for free so I usually just walk around downtown. Of course that's not to far a walk but still.

I hope its a matter of when, not if.

#118 Jeriat

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:10 AM

Something connecting Downtown, So7 and the stockyards would be used by me. I really want to take a good visit to those areas again, but doing so by car is just so impractical and I just park at TCC for free so I usually just walk around downtown. Of course that's not to far a walk but still.

I hope its a matter of when, not if.


It is a matter of 'when'. And that 'when' has been elongated for at least another decade.....

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#119 Volare

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:33 PM

It is a matter of 'when'. And that 'when' has been elongated for at least another decade.....


And not only that, the cost has been at least doubled. The best time to build infrastructure is in a down economy. The land aquisition alone will be vastly more expensive.

Oh well- Dallas thanks us for our money that we "sent back to Washington." We sure showed them, eh?! :wacko:

#120 Russ Graham

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 02:01 PM

Also, with Sen. Cruz replacing Sen. Hutchison, I would expect to see much fewer opportunities to spend federal money on local projects. Personally I'm curious to see how this will affect our place in line for things like New Starts funding for TEX.

#121 RD Milhollin

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 02:10 PM

Here is a link to an article showing th design of the cars chosen for the Dallas / Oak Cliff streetcar route, made possible in part from TIGER funds turned down by Fort Worth:

http://transportatio...e-project.html/

#122 ron4Life

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:33 PM

Also, with Sen. Cruz replacing Sen. Hutchison, I would expect to see much fewer opportunities to spend federal money on local projects. Personally I'm curious to see how this will affect our place in line for things like New Starts funding for TEX.

Awh I wouldn't worry about that, we have Ms. Kay Granger on our behalf. Anyway was Ms. Hutchison tied to Dallas?

#123 Brian Luenser

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:16 PM

Hopefully the current and future city council people/ Senators/ other legislators are too smart to fall for a 120 year old transportation system. It is too slow, too expensive, gets in the way of everything, too ugly and removed many decades ago as they were obsolete. They are even more obsolete now. Send that money back to Washington. They can send it back to China where it came from. We don't have any money. We have to borrow it. That is why we will turn into Greece soon enough.

Light rail. Move workers back and forth quickly to get to work and pay their taxes. Streetcars are dead. Move on.
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#124 Austin55

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 06:29 PM

Hey Mr. Bass, got any $$$ to spare?

#125 Doohickie

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 12:31 PM

The Bass interests are not interested in rail. Downtown interests killed it last time.
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#126 Russ Graham

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:17 PM

Also, with Sen. Cruz replacing Sen. Hutchison, I would expect to see much fewer opportunities to spend federal money on local projects. Personally I'm curious to see how this will affect our place in line for things like New Starts funding for TEX.

Awh I wouldn't worry about that, we have Ms. Kay Granger on our behalf. Anyway was Ms. Hutchison tied to Dallas?


Well, the reason I said that is that Sen. Hutchison is/was the ranking member of the Senate committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation, and a big believer in bringing federal money back to Texas. In contrast, Sen.-elect Cruz, as a tea-party guy, is supposed to be opposed to this kind of spending. So... what makes you say you wouldn't worry about it? Do you mean you think it won't affect our ability to get Federal funds? Agreed that Kay Granger is still representing us in the House of Rep's, and she's done a good job of bringing back funds for the TRV - but I don't think she's on any committees related to transportation. And she's one of 435 members in the House, where Kay Hutchison was one of 100 in the Senate - a little bit of a different level of power there.

I haven't heard a lot of people talking about this, but I'd be interested in hearing what you guys think about it.

#127 Russ Graham

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:23 PM

Hopefully the current and future city council people/ Senators/ other legislators are too smart to fall for a 120 year old transportation system. It is too slow, too expensive, gets in the way of everything, too ugly and removed many decades ago as they were obsolete. They are even more obsolete now. Send that money back to Washington. They can send it back to China where it came from. We don't have any money. We have to borrow it. That is why we will turn into Greece soon enough.

Light rail. Move workers back and forth quickly to get to work and pay their taxes. Streetcars are dead. Move on.


I agree with the exact opposite of everything you just said - it's almost comical.

The first cars were built in 1769, (source: http://en.wikipedia...._the_automobile) so they are 243 years old - so in contrast, streetcars being 120 years old are right up to the minute, modern conveniences!

#128 RD Milhollin

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:26 PM

Those poor luddites in Portland and Seattle must really envy us in Fort Worth :laugh:

I do like streetcars, but would like to see them run on side-streets so as not to obstruct automobile traffic, and vice versa. A street featuring streetcar traffic would likely attract a different mix of business (and housing) than a major traffic thoroughfare... might be very good for the city.

#129 Jeriat

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:04 AM

I do like streetcars, but would like to see them run on side-streets so as not to obstruct automobile traffic, and vice versa. A street featuring streetcar traffic would likely attract a different mix of business (and housing) than a major traffic thoroughfare... might be very good for the city.


So basically just LRVs like DART Rail and METRORail (Houston)?

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#130 Brian Luenser

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:12 PM


Hopefully the current and future city council people/ Senators/ other legislators are too smart to fall for a 120 year old transportation system. It is too slow, too expensive, gets in the way of everything, too ugly and removed many decades ago as they were obsolete. They are even more obsolete now. Send that money back to Washington. They can send it back to China where it came from. We don't have any money. We have to borrow it. That is why we will turn into Greece soon enough.

Light rail. Move workers back and forth quickly to get to work and pay their taxes. Streetcars are dead. Move on.


I agree with the exact opposite of everything you just said - it's almost comical.

The first cars were built in 1769, (source: http://en.wikipedia...._the_automobile) so they are 243 years old - so in contrast, streetcars being 120 years old are right up to the minute, modern conveniences!


If you like links, try this one... http://dictionary.re...se/Opposite?s=t
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#131 RD Milhollin

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 08:39 PM

So basically just LRVs like DART Rail and METRORail (Houston)?


No, we were talking about streetcars. I like streetcars, but would prefer to see a system where they don't run down major traffic arteries. There are streets often running just one block off a major artery that would, IMO be better to run streetcars on. Car traffic is typically fast, or at best unpredictable, and consists of individual often overpowered vehicles that are capable of steering any number of potential trajectories. The average automobile is loud and also emits toxic fumes as it passes. Not a good situation for pedestrians and pedestrian-oriented businesses. A side street with rails for streetcars installed would be much quieter, cleaner, and safer for pedestrians, bicycles, cafes, walk-in retail, mixed-use with upstairs apartments, etc. That's all I was saying. I do like light rail as well, but that is a different thread.

#132 Doohickie

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:43 AM

Those poor luddites in Portland and Seattle must really envy us in Fort Worth :laugh:

I do like streetcars, but would like to see them run on side-streets so as not to obstruct automobile traffic, and vice versa. A street featuring streetcar traffic would likely attract a different mix of business (and housing) than a major traffic thoroughfare... might be very good for the city.


Totally disagree.

I recently went to Houston and they run their rail mostly down main streets. It works well.
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#133 David Love

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 05:40 PM

If it's the streetcars with overhead cabling, personally I think they're an eye sore.

I've been watching them build the route through Las Colinas, at first I thought the way they were routing them over 114 was going to look pretty cool, then they added power power poles and cablings along the entire route and I swear it looked as if they went 8 decades back in time.

In a word: Blight!

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#134 Electricron

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 01:05 AM

If it's the streetcars with overhead cabling, personally I think they're an eye sore.

I've been watching them build the route through Las Colinas, at first I thought the way they were routing them over 114 was going to look pretty cool, then they added power power poles and cablings along the entire route and I swear it looked as if they went 8 decades back in time.

In a word: Blight!


That's DART's Orange line going through Las Colinas, that's light rail - not a streetcar.

Whereas I will agree, running a streetcar line on a street one block away major arterial street is workable, it's not in Fort Worth.
Here's why, freight railroad lines surround downtown Fort Worth in every compass direction, streetcars must go over or under them, and only major arterial streets in Fort Worth do so, and not all of them do.

Let's refresh our memories of the railroad lines surrounding downtown Fort Worth. The FWWR lies to the west and north, the UP to the south, and the TRE, UP, and BNSF to the east. To the northeast, the FWWR turns into the Cotton Belt.

Only three streets cross the FWWR with grade separation leaving downtown Fort Worth; Lancaster, I-30, and Rosedale - all heading west. I-35W crosses the Cotton Belt with grade separation heading north. Heading east, TX 347 Spur (extension of TX 121), 3rd-4th Street, TX 280 (extension of US 287), I--30, Lancaster, Vickery, and Rosedale have grade separations. To the South, I-35W, Main, Jennings, Henderson, and 8th have grade separations. Will you agree with me that controlled access highways are poor choices to run streetcars on? That would eliminate I-30, I-35W, TX 347 Spur, TX 280 as viable choices. Rosedale and Vickery aren't technically in downtown Fort Worth, so we should eliminate them too. We're left with South Main, Jennings, Henderson and 8th (to the south); 3rd-4th Street (to the east) and Lancaster (to both the east and west) as viable streetcar routes as is. That's assuming the structures are strong enough to carry relatively heavy streetcars. Note: not one existing city street to the north is grade separated.

Of course, grade separations over or under freight railroad lines can be built where needed, but that will immediately add $25 Million or so capital costs to any streetcar project. If Fort Worth plans to use targeted property tax zones to fund them, they'll be hard pressed to find that additional $25 Million. Therefore, the few viable streets for a relative cheap to build streetcar lines to leave downtown Fort Worth are very limited.

#135 AndyN

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 11:11 AM

If it's the streetcars with overhead cabling, personally I think they're an eye sore.

I've been watching them build the route through Las Colinas, at first I thought the way they were routing them over 114 was going to look pretty cool, then they added power power poles and cablings along the entire route and I swear it looked as if they went 8 decades back in time.

In a word: Blight!


I feel the same way about motorcycles with loud mufflers. And buses belching smoke or ruining pavement.

I used to feel the same way about PCC cars because I only knew them as a symbol of 1960s urban decay from seeing them in the intro to Good Times. Then I saw them running in nice places with new paint and they have a whole new appeal.

The antiquated technology argument is somewhat sad as the internal combustion automobile predates the electric streetcar by a couple of years.

The overhead wire argument is negated by the modern wireless cars.

If I put on my moderator hat, I have to wonder why it is we are having the same discussion on the practice, theory and aesthetics of streetcars when I am pretty sure we've all made our opinions felt at least 2 or 3 times before on this forum. It seems very circular, but I suppose we have new people in the conversation.
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#136 cberen1

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 09:14 AM

How about cable cars? Let's do that. ;)

#137 Russ Graham

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:04 PM

Only three streets cross the FWWR with grade separation leaving downtown Fort Worth; Lancaster, I-30, and Rosedale - all heading west.


Interesting perspective - I've always assumed 7th street would be the connector to the west. But you're right, 7th street crosses that rail line at grade. Since we're putting in a brand new bridge at 7th and not addressing the rail crossing (right?), can we assume 7th street will "always" (i.e. for the foreseeable future) have an at-grade rail crossing? Or are there other permutations at work in the various Tower-55 options that would somehow address this?

#138 Electricron

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:18 PM

Interesting perspective - I've always assumed 7th street would be the connector to the west. But you're right, 7th street crosses that rail line at grade. Since we're putting in a brand new bridge at 7th and not addressing the rail crossing (right?), can we assume 7th street will "always" (i.e. for the foreseeable future) have an at-grade rail crossing? Or are there other permutations at work in the various Tower-55 options that would somehow address this?

I'm not aware of any solution that doesn't cost $25 Million to resolve this issue. The main transportation based purpose of a streetcar line heading west would be to connect Downtown with the Will Rogers Complex, and that can be done on Lancaster far easier and cheaper than on 7th. A secondary purpose is real estate developments, and there are more vacant lots on Lancaster than 7th today. I would use Lancaster - assuming the existing bridge is strong enough to handle streetcars. If not, $25 Million would have to be spent building a new bridge anyways, so either 7th or Lancaster come into play.

#139 Russ Graham

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

I'm not aware of any solution that doesn't cost $25 Million to resolve this issue. The main transportation based purpose of a streetcar line heading west would be to connect Downtown with the Will Rogers Complex, and that can be done on Lancaster far easier and cheaper than on 7th. A secondary purpose is real estate developments, and there are more vacant lots on Lancaster than 7th today. I would use Lancaster - assuming the existing bridge is strong enough to handle streetcars. If not, $25 Million would have to be spent building a new bridge anyways, so either 7th or Lancaster come into play.


I know I've read somewhere that the new 7th street bridge is going to be structurally capable to support a possible future streetcar installation. I guess one way to "resolve" the issue of an at-grade intersection is to just ignore it, I don't see why this would be any more onerous for a streetcar than it is for the rest of us, or for a bus.

On a side note (and not to start an argument or anything) but I'm not following your reasoning on the main purpose of connecting Downtown to Will Rodgers... maybe true at one point in Ft Worth's history - but downtown is not a "population center", it's really just a business park. So both downtown and Will Rogers are not "sources" of people, but "sinks" - you're connecting two positive voltages together - no current will flow.

#140 Electricron

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 04:43 PM

On a side note (and not to start an argument or anything) but I'm not following your reasoning on the main purpose of connecting Downtown to Will Rodgers... maybe true at one point in Ft Worth's history - but downtown is not a "population center", it's really just a business park. So both downtown and Will Rogers are not "sources" of people, but "sinks" - you're connecting two positive voltages together - no current will flow.


You may have a point, but I'll look at historic streetcar routes to find an answer. Destinations for all rail lines are important. That's why most go through downtown. But there was usually an anchor on the other end as well; be it a shopping center, university, event staging areas, amusement parks, and zoos. Will Rogers area is an event staging area, cultural museum area, school district management area, plus a city park. The Stockyards is another event staging area to the north. To the south is a major hospital district. There are universities to the east and southwest. On every route, to the north, west, south, and east the prospective streetcar lines travel through residential neighborhoods.
Building a streetcar line just to residential areas won't generate traffic all day long. You need destinations that will attract passengers all day long. Otherwise you should build a commuter rail line and just run trains during the morning and evening rush.
I don't think the streetcar can ignore the FWWR tracks. If an overpass or underpass isn't built, then temporal separation will be required, where the train track is locked out of service when the streetcars are running. I don't think the FWWR will allow that.

#141 johnfwd

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:22 AM

I was on the west side of downtown Dallas not long ago and my car drove parallel to a street car with overhead cable. Quaint looking townhomes and apartment buildings on one side and commercial on the other, if I recall. Forget which street it was on. And I didn't observe how many riders were aboard.

#142 AndyN

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 10:18 AM

http://www.dallasnew...y-ridership.ece

If I remember correctly, the 1.4 mile long Dallas streetcar carried about 15,000 riders in 1993. Using 4 antiquated cars with no air conditioning and a hard ride.

In 2012, the line 0.6 miles longer and the same antiquated cars are in use with the addition of air conditioning on 3 of the 4. In my opinion, the cars are falling apart but somehow they keep them on the tracks while newer cars are in the works. Projections for ridership by the end of this year is 450,000 riders and perhaps double that number when the new southern track extension is completed.

There has been hundreds of millions of dollars worth of development along the route. I can only wonder what they could have accomplished with modern equipment.

Good thing Fort Worth has spurned the costly, disasterous effects that might have happened here. (/sarcasm)
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#143 djold1

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:56 PM

Andy.. There is certainly something to what you say..

However..

How much sense does it make to run out West Seventh Street in Fort Worth up to the cultural area which has already been developed with gajillions of dollars investment? And then hope to cherry-pick enough fickle "premium" riders to fill the cars? Particularly when the avowed intent is NOT to cater to tourists to the two areas by avoiding using the Camp Bowie connection? Unless the intent is to extend the line out Camp Bowie past Montgomery there is really very little that the line can do to add to the development of the area.. This is just one of the things about the FW plans that bother me..

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Website: Antique Maps of Texas
Large format reproductions of original antique and vintage Texas & southwestern maps
 


#144 AndyN

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:34 PM

West 7th was not the totality of the plan, the killed line went to south of downtown, the hospital district and into southeast Fort Worth. Not sure why you are focused solely on West 7th, but even if it was the sole focus of the plan (ignoring the actual engineering studies and the line south of downtown), there is still land to be built on or built up and the corridor has considerable ability to generate revenue and riders. If you look only at development potential and neglect to consider ridership, then you will have empty cars. That is why an engineering study was done and the best routes were picked to account for ridership and numerous other factors.

But there is no Fort Worth plan anymore, so it's a moot point. I'm not specifically addressing Fort Worth's failures with the link above, merely pointing out Dallas' success. The little streetcar that could. And did.
Www.fortwortharchitecture.com

#145 renamerusk

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:45 PM

... I like streetcars, but would prefer to see a system where they don't run down major traffic arteries. There are streets often running just one block off a major artery that would, IMO be better to run streetcars on.. A side street with rails for streetcars installed would be much quieter, cleaner, and safer for pedestrians, bicycles, cafes, walk-in retail, mixed-use with upstairs apartments, etc.


Agree with this line of thinking.

I attempted a search, having no success, to find a earlier reply/suggestion that I posted regarding the desirability of a transit-only corridor; so now I will restate my thoughts as such as they pertain to the cultural district/downtown connecter phase of a street car system.
It might be feasible to use 6th Street west of the river and 5th Street east of the river as a transit-only corridor. Such a route would nullify most of the concerns and problems associated with an admittedly more complicated 7th Street route. Such a route would also generate new development and activity north of 7th Street west of the river; and area that is lagging behind the area south of 7th Street.

Keep Fort Worth folksy

#146 Jeriat

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:16 AM

Personally, I believe that it WILL happen.

It's just been held back at least another decade... like several other projects in this town.

7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#147 Volare

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 03:48 PM

More info on that Streetcar that will now be installed in Dallas and not Fort Worth:

 

http://oakcliffblog....shop-arts.html/

 

Compare/Contrast the quotes from the city council folks at the end of the linked article...



#148 RD Milhollin

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:29 PM

They obviously have no clue what they are talking about. It will never work. People don't ride streetcars. Is this transportation or economic development? We need more roads! 

 

:rolleyes:



#149 renamerusk

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:29 PM

They obviously have no clue what they are talking about. It will never work. People don't ride streetcars. Is this transportation or economic development? We need more roads! 

 

:rolleyes:

 

For godsake's,  someone tell them that we can't afford this; don't they know there is a recession and we are spending our great great great grand kids' money. Odd how Dallas manages to get both roads and transit funding too.

 

  :wacko:



#150 Brian Luenser

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:45 PM

For sure, Fort Worth is not Dallas.   And it won't be worth the money in Dallas.  Streetcars not only are pathetic for getting taxpayers back and forth to work, but they inhibit meaningful traffic.   Horses, no.  Mules, no.  Streetcars, no.   Rail, yes.  Light rail, yes.  More and bigger roads, yes.


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