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#51 djold1

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 04:51 PM

Why are you assuming that the bikini lady is driving the bus? Posted Image

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#52 Brian Luenser

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 06:39 PM

Because I was assuming the lady driving the streetcar would be the lady with the headache! :laugh:
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#53 djold1

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 07:23 PM

<groan>

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#54 mmiller2002

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 07:49 PM

The startlegram had a story today about "rubber tired streetcars." This is very modern since rubber tires came after steel rails.

Will the money spent on these "streetcars" by FW get recouped? :mellow:

#55 renamerusk

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 10:52 PM

Heliport proposed for I-30 @ Montgomery Street - this is and was news to me.
http://www.fortworth...ation/heliport/

I would add this to "horse arena" as something the mayor and council will have a lot to explain to the street car constituents. Interestingly enough, Fort Worth cites Portland, Oregon as a city having a heliport....Hmmmm!

#56 AndyN

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 10:31 AM

Temporary in a leased parking lot. Would have only been used during the Stuporbowl.
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#57 mmiller2002

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 12:27 PM

They are using Lockheed's parking lot for VIP transport to the super bowl festivities.

I didn't see anything in that S-T link about Montgomery.

They are using part of Lockheed's Montgomery St. facility parking lot for VIP transport to the super bowl festivities.

I didn't see anything in that S-T link about Montgomery.

#58 renamerusk

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 09:56 PM

They are using Lockheed's parking lot for VIP transport to the super bowl festivities.

I didn't see anything in that S-T link about Montgomery.

They are using part of Lockheed's Montgomery St. facility parking lot for VIP transport to the super bowl festivities.

I didn't see anything in that S-T link about Montgomery.


http://www.star-tele...cil-briefs.html

#59 FoUTASportscaster

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 07:24 AM

Heliport proposed for I-30 @ Montgomery Street - this is and was news to me.
http://www.fortworth...ation/heliport/

I would add this to "horse arena" as something the mayor and council will have a lot to explain to the street car constituents. Interestingly enough, Fort Worth cites Portland, Oregon as a city having a heliport....Hmmmm!


It quotes the Dallas heliport as one that is in use, but as a downtown resident/worker who is near the convention center often, I have never seen this in use. This smells of pure pork.

#60 JKC

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 06:00 PM

It may not be the most intriguing of explanations, but I think the permanent heliport is really the result of a City aviation department goal of separating fixed wing and rotor traffic (an operational issue), adding a true heliport to the list of amenities the city has, + gas money already available to pay for it that is restricted to "aviation-related use only" by federal rule.

I suspect the temporary version was a plan to respond to Super Bowl demand, had it been needed.


#61 Binx

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 09:04 PM

Looks like Oklahoma City is proceeding with its own streetcar project. I find this interesting because it is a city of comparable size and political make-up to Fort Worth.

http://www.kfor.com/...0,7768204.story

http://www.newsok.com/article/3555655

#62 renamerusk

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 10:19 PM

The powers-to-be whom some of us believe conspired to derail Fort Worth's Streetcar Initiative attempted to sneak a fast one by us by introducing a Fort Worth specific bill in the Legislature to boost funding for a horse arena. Of course, all of Fort Worth would pay for this project which would benefit only "one council district". Sound familiar? Read for yourself and you decide…..
http://www.fwweekly....olis&Itemid=377

Remember "The Streetcar!"

#63 renamerusk

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 09:01 PM

The last line in today's Star Telegram "New Bus Route" story has an "I can't help it" anti-streetcar bias for which I have to say leaves me searching for answers; and keeps me from subscribing to their paper. Why does the S-T allow its Arlington/ NE Tarrant County Bureau to present the newspaper's editorial lead for the Lancaster Avenue Bus Route? Why not have Bud Kennedy or Mitch Schnurman write the opinion, either in whom I find more credibility than I find in Mike Norman when the subject is Fort Worth?

http://www.star-tele...oes-modern.html

Keep Fort Worth folksy.

#64 johnfwd

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:04 PM

The last line in today's Star Telegram "New Bus Route" story has an "I can't help it" anti-streetcar bias for which I have to say leaves me searching for answers; and keeps me from subscribing to their paper. Why does the S-T allow its Arlington/ NE Tarrant County Bureau to present the newspaper's editorial lead for the Lancaster Avenue Bus Route? Why not have Bud Kennedy or Mitch Schnurman write the opinion, either in whom I find more credibility than I find in Mike Norman when the subject is Fort Worth?

http://www.star-tele...oes-modern.html

Keep Fort Worth folksy.

I agree, but the article you cite reflects not just “anti-streetcar bias,” but also anti-rail bias. To be honest, I for one hate buses. And I don’t believe even larger buses holding more people is the answer to lessening arterial traffic congestion. These vehicles merely join the bumper-to-bumper party out there, in my opinion. In fact, I believe larger buses, just like the big semi’s, not only add to congestion they are a traffic safety hazard.

#65 Keller Pirate

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 07:31 PM

Just to get the topic going, I have a link to an Oregon Live article about public transportation in Portland, everyones poster child for streetcars and bicycle commuting. Among the many counter to popular opinion stats, I thought the statement that a commuter using public transportation takes 20 minutes longer than a commuter in a vehicle. I believe that is a national stat, not just Portland. Some of the commenters noted that Portland has spent billions on public transit and they aren't any better off than folks in Southern California. Although, I did find the guy planning to live to 125 by riding his bike amusing.



http://blog.oregonli..._region_st.html

#66 RD Milhollin

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 07:32 PM

[/quote]
... I don’t believe even larger buses holding more people is the answer to lessening arterial traffic congestion. These vehicles merely join the bumper-to-bumper party out there, in my opinion. In fact, I believe larger buses, just like the big semi’s, not only add to congestion they are a traffic safety hazard.
[/quote]

The large buses would be appropriate for dedicated lanes, used only by buses, but to have that sort of dedication be efficient (and acceptable to the public) they would have to get a lot of use. Nearly everywhere a bus can go, light rail could go. If we can't have light rail (for whatever reason) perhaps the next best alternative would be to develop express bus lanes that could be easily converted to light rail use in the future. Dedicated lanes, viaducts over busy intersections, shortcut bridges over congestion spots such as rail tracks and water courses or through restricted points where multiple traffic lanes are not practical would give the buses / future rail advantages over autos in getting from point to point. Single and double lane bridges etc. would be considerably less expensive than 6 - 8 lane wide construction...

#67 johnfwd

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 11:16 AM

Good points, all. Yes, there can be dedicated express lanes for buses. But, allow me to interject the phrase “never the twain shall meet…” By that I mean, in this context, dedicated bus lanes eventually have to rejoin the rest of us bumper-to-bumper unfortunates unless it’s possible to somehow build lanes that are completely separate from start to finish. And I don’t believe, because of financing, you can build bus lanes apart from the cars in every neighborhood of a large city. On the other hand, rails mostly start and end on their own turf…yes they often intersect with streets, but I believe wise planners can ameliorate that problem with less expense than building new motor vehicle lanes.

#68 djold1

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 07:08 PM

Public transportation is public transportation. Just that.

How ridiculous is it to say "I hate streetcars" or "I hate buses"? In a city business district both take up equal space in an environment already crowded by private cars and service vehicles of all kinds. How is a streetcar that holds 60 people in any way smaller or more flexible than a comparable bus?

How ridiculous is it to say: "I hate buses! I wouldn't get into a bus for any reason", even if that bus was built by a company that also builds streetcars and trolley buses and looked the same inside and out. Fort Worth lost a world class streetcar system in 1936 simply because there were loud protests about them at the time. They were not modern or efficient, etc. All false for the most part, but done just exactly like anti-bus protesters are doing now.

Or is this whole controversy about something else? Could it be a perceived bias as to the suitability fo the type of people that supposedly ride buses vs. those that ride streetcars? Could we call this "class action traction"? The city has admitted long ago that they want to cherry-pick streetcar riders from selected citizens of their "urban villages". And, in more expensive equipment that will take the cost per fare out of sight.

There has been more spin on this subject in the past few years than everything but the fabled "Southwest Parkway".. I have attended a number of the past Streetcar meetings for the public trying to weight the pros and cons and I have to say that I have heard these supposedly neutral consultants say the most outrageous things. They apparently assume that we all are gullible idiots.

I will say again the same thing that I have said in this forum for years: I firmly believe that there is a good place for streetcars (not light rail) in Fort Worth. In conjunction with all other forms of public transportation. I think there are some innovative ways that both streetcars and bus operations could be improved.

Yes, I believe in streetcars for Fort Worth. But only if the public process of getting them in places that they are most suitable is done honestly and aboveboard with as little political BS as possible. Not likely right now, I'm afraid..

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#69 David Love

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 08:57 AM

I've never really cared for all the residual wiring that went along with streetcars, it's always there, you only smell a bus for a short while once it's gone by, but the streetcar cabling visual pollution is ALWAYS there.

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#70 djold1

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 06:37 PM

The overhead wire may look objectionable to some especially if it's in a downtown area with lots of curves & intersections. as it was in the old days. As far as I can tell, so-called "modern" system lines are so sparse with fewer intersections that it probably would not be too noticeable. Of course there are hybrid streetcars that can run on battery without overhead wired for some distance. As to bus fumes, the "T" buses all run on Compressed natural Gas (CNG) and they do not seem to smell much compared to the diesel trucks that also share space..

Another option that seems to be totally ignored are trolley buses. Electric powered buses that take their power from overhead wires. They have been around as long as motor buses have been and are used in Europe and around the world with good success. Seattle and I think San Francisco use them as well as other US cities if I'm not mistaken. They have most of the street flexibility of the bus, don't require rebuilding to put rails in the street, eliminate the problem of electrolysis damage to underground piping that can happen with streetcars and are as clean as their power plant source is. Consultants seem to ignore them without giving any reasons why.

Trolleybuses.

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#71 Volare

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 04:12 PM

You think the overhead wires from streetcars are bad, you should see the wires for the trolley buses. Much much worse, because the bus needs to be able to range the full width of the street. Seattle has them downtown and they are blight. Lots of talk in Seattle about replacing them with Diesel/Electric hybrid buses.

#72 AndyN

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 04:34 PM

Electric vehicles require a circuit to operate the electric motors. Just like a lamp, one wire is hot or positive and the other is cold, negative or neutral (a return path). Streetcars use a single overhead wire to to acquire the necessary energy and the steel rails provide the return path to the powerhouse. Because an electric trolley bus (ETB) runs on rubber tires on asphalt or concrete, a second wire is included in the overhead contact system to provide a return path. Notice that ETBs have dual trolley poles. (+) and (-). This makes the overhead more complicated and visually offensive.

The visual pollution of simple trolley wire on a tangent is way over imagined in my opinion. It is mainly the curves or switches where the hardware gets excessive. San Francisco has developed a minimalist hanger system and there are many practices developed to reduce the visual impact. This ain't your father's overhead contact system.
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#73 renamerusk

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 06:22 PM

How would you rate these images of streetcar overhead lines in Tampa: acceptable or unacceptable?



http://www.railwaypr...ey_163_3_sm.JPG

http://www.railwaypr...verview_sm3.jpg

http://www.railwaypr...y_163_5_sm2.jpg

http://www.railwaypr...ircle_2_sm2.jpg

I, myself, rate them very acceptable.

Keep Fort Worth folksy.





#74 AndyN

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 06:49 PM

First picture is an aberration. As I recall, they cross a CSX freight line on single track and use the double contact wire to avoid having a frog (union) in the overhead wire where they change from double track. The frog is perceived as a potential dewiring point and they don't want the streetcar to have any reason to stall on the freight line, thus the double wire at that point. It's a safety thing.

Also, the wheels under No. 163 is a design I worked on with the Chief Operating Office of MATA, adapting the wheels from Dallas' No. 636 for use on the Florida car. The original design is designated 78-LSS and I think the Florida version is 78-LSS2. I am very proud of that work. That car has some powerful motors.
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#75 David Love

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 07:07 PM

How would you rate these images of streetcar overhead lines in Tampa: acceptable or unacceptable?

http://www.railwaypr...ey_163_3_sm.JPG

http://www.railwaypr...verview_sm3.jpg

http://www.railwaypr...y_163_5_sm2.jpg

http://www.railwaypr...ircle_2_sm2.jpg

I, myself, rate them very acceptable.

Keep Fort Worth folksy.


Not too bad but to make a qualified call you'd need to see the intersections, junctions, etc... mid line and with nothing but open spaces they look "okay" but it's when you install them into existing older locations where things get cluttered and tight, they don't always look the same.

Like the SouthSide of downtown, plenty of space, doubt you'd even notice them as long as they stopped BEFORE they got into downtown, say no farther than 9th.

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#76 AndyN

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 07:08 PM

And if you really want to geek out on this line of conversation that we have jumped into, then Google Books has the thing for you!

Reducing The Visual Impact of Overhead Contact Systems By John S. Kulpa, Arthur D. Schwartz.
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#77 renamerusk

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:34 PM

More bitter sweet news for us in Fort Worth as DART keeps rolling along.

http://www.progressi...t-report--28286

#78 Brian Luenser

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 10:36 PM

I am very happy for Dart. The are doing terrific. It only reminds me how great it would be to have some light rail in Fort Worth. I would start with a Downtown to alliance park and ride. In the mean time, I am glad that I can at least ride Dart around Dallas. I would never consider going to the Fair any more if the Green Line was not on-line. Of course Dallas and Fort Worth are different places. I bet there are are greater percentage of people in Dallas that do not own a car than in Fort Worth. And of course just being a bigger city with more people. And then a full 1% MTA tax vs. Fort Worth's .5%. And on a much smaller base. Dallas just plain has a lot more money in that pot. But again, good for them. Our air is cleaner in Fort Worth because Dart exists and is doing well. (and provides half the funding for the Trinity Railway.)
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#79 AndyN

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 11:24 AM

Stuff happening in other cities.

Good thing we saved ourselves from the dreaded modern streetcar.
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#80 John S.

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 08:58 PM

Stuff happening in other cities.

Good thing we saved ourselves from the dreaded modern streetcar.


Hi Andy,
Welcome back, neighbor. I won't debate the merits or disadvantages of a modern streetcar system in Fort Worth. It had its short day in the sun and was vetoed by our former mayor. (who, by the way, has business connections to the oil industry with its main customers being the American car driving public) Anyhow, as you know, while we cherish the 25+ years we've called the Fort Worth area home, (22+ on Samuels Ave) we're ready to sell and relocate with Cincinnati, OH being a strong prospect. That Midwestern city, by the way, once had a proposed streetcar system almost given up for dead as the Ohio governor had nixed state funding for the project but supporter-voters persevered and have managed to get funding restored with groundbreaking for the new street car system scheduled for early 2012. It will be a "shortline" initially but if successful will be expanded in the future. Doubtful we could do the same in FW as just too few here are very passionate about it. Better get used to "Molly the Trolley" because that's as close as we are likely to get to a "streetcar" anytime soon.

#81 AndyN

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 11:41 PM

I don't know. Watch the downtown vision work coming up. Let's gage it there. We have new leadership in the mayor's office. If the US doesn't go bankrupt, there's still a chance. San Antonio just pushed through a system completely locally funded, IIRC and Cinci just beat back a ballot initiative to kill the modern streetcar. FWIW, Molly is a bus.
Www.fortwortharchitecture.com

#82 John S.

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 12:32 PM

I don't know. Watch the downtown vision work coming up. Let's gage it there. We have new leadership in the mayor's office. If the US doesn't go bankrupt, there's still a chance. San Antonio just pushed through a system completely locally funded, IIRC and Cinci just beat back a ballot initiative to kill the modern streetcar. FWIW, Molly is a bus.


Yes, I know all about "Molly the Trolley"...it is frequently parked down in front of the extended stay Marriot at Samuels and Belknap. That was my point, instead of a real streetcar, we instead get a gasoline or diesel powered BUS (maybe even Nat. gas?) dolled up to look somewhat like an "old trolley car". I'd like to think there could someday be a real streetcar in FW but austerity and financial caution are today's reality. Back when the Tandy Center had their little electric streetcar "shortline" from the parking lot into the Center it was nearly always full. (being toll free surely helped) I feel fairly confident that mass rail transportation has a future in Fort Worth but not until the economy improves and funds become more available. I'm also optimistic about the new mayoral leadership, certainly more so than the previous administration.

#83 Brian Luenser

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 01:38 PM

I think Fort Worth has been and is blessed with our past and current Mayor. Mayor Moncrief was originally for old street cars. But after the economy tanked (Fort Worth and United States) he realized it was time to stop playing house. A streetcar in Fort Worth is not real transportation. It saves no fuel or pollution. I think creates more pollution by clogging up our streets. I was proud of the Mayor for not going for the shiny toy. Fort Worth has real transportation concerns that must be met by real alternatives to cars. Light rail, rail, increased auto lanes, synchronized intelligent traffic lights and getting lazy people to walk.

I never voted for Mayor Moncrief. But think we cannot find a more honorable man. He did not vote against street cars because he has friends in the oil business. (Oswald actually killed Kennedy too) The Mayor knew the economic timing was wrong for a streetcar. Unlike Moncrief, I think never is the best time. Don't clog our streets with junk. There would not have been 30 people that rode a streetcar to work. (To pay our taxes to pay for real solutions)

I think Mayor Price is as smart as Mayor Moncrief. I could not be more grateful. Street cars need to live only on my antique postcards.
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#84 AndyN

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 03:45 PM

Yes, it's great that we know each other's talking points, Brian. Did you read the linked article and have any comment on what was discussed there?
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#85 renamerusk

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 04:22 PM

I think Fort Worth has been and is blessed with our past and current Mayor. Mayor Moncrief was originally for old street cars. But after the economy tanked (Fort Worth and United States) he realized it was time to stop playing house. A streetcar in Fort Worth is not real transportation. It saves no fuel or pollution.... I never voted for Mayor Moncrief. But think we cannot find a more honorable man...Street cars need to live only on my antique postcards.


I think there is a quick and easily implemented solution that you would favor: convert the two inside lanes of 35W from DTFW to I20 into reversible toll lanes. This would provide you and other auto dependent suburban commuters a choice. So far I have been able to avoid using the rapidly expanding toll way network which is being developed in the Metroplex; and will continue to do so. Personally, I have no objections to making all interstate highways toll roads, thus allowing you to have this choice wherever you drive. As a proponent of Central City commuters, the streetcar would have provided us with a choice that the opponents were unwilling to give to persons such as myself. In reality, the streetcar was a central city project which did not interfere with the highway network, although it was and continues to be mischaracterized as such. It is, as Dallas is demonstrating, a component of a network of highway, toll roads, light rail, bus and street car developed to serve a variety of users. Does this mean that Dallas is not a modern city, but a city of relics?

We in DFW pay for higher gasoline because of the enormous auto emissions that significantly contribute to poor air quality in the region. The public health in itself is argument enough to provide the region with alternative means of transportation.

As for our past administration and its leader being a beacon of honor, I do not share your accolades. The Fort Worth Weekly (December, 2010) published an excellent investigative report on the derailment of the streetcar initiative. A strong argument was made by the FWW that City Hall, Downtown Fort Worth, Inc., FWST and Sundance Square were expressing publicly their support for the streetcar initiative while in actuality they were working in a concerted effort to derail the initiative so as to advance their own interests.


Keep Fort Worth folksy

#86 Jamie

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:14 PM

A streetcar in Fort Worth is not real transportation. It saves no fuel or pollution. I think creates more pollution by clogging up our streets. I was proud of the Mayor for not going for the shiny toy. <...>

I'll say that streetcars have their niche - even in Fort Worth.
The Tandy Center Subway took between 2,000 and 3,000 vehicles off downtown streets every day. These were not "toys" - they were workhorses that carried thousands of passengers and were packed with standees during rush hours - right up until the last day of operation.
Tandy's PCC cars didn't clog the streets because they didn't run in the streets. Yes, they were free - they didn't use a penny of taxpayer money either.

#87 renamerusk

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 07:18 PM


A streetcar in Fort Worth is not real transportation. It saves no fuel or pollution. I think creates more pollution by clogging up our streets. I was proud of the Mayor for not going for the shiny toy. <...>

I'll say that streetcars have their niche - even in Fort Worth.
The Tandy Center Subway took between 2,000 and 3,000 vehicles off downtown streets every day. These were not "toys" - they were workhorses that carried thousands of passengers and were packed with standees during rush hours - right up until the last day of operation.
Tandy's PCC cars didn't clog the streets because they didn't run in the streets. Yes, they were free - they didn't use a penny of taxpayer money either.


Agreed!

#88 Jeriat

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 11:28 PM

All I know is, Waco better not get rail before we do.

I'll clip someone's n*ts if that happens...

p.s., there's a reason why they're called MODERN streetcars, so I'm not gonna say they need to be stuck in the past. I feel we have to get something going.... someday.

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#89 ramjet

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:07 AM

Very interesting article in today's Austin American-Statesman about the disappointing lack of economic development around Austin's Metro Rail stops over the last couple of years. I know it won't be music to the urbanism-isticals, but perhaps in-town rail is not the magic economic genie as has been touted.

Economic Development Disappointing Thus Far

The AAS also looked at development around DART stations in the Dallas area and appears to have come to the same conclusion with a few exceptions:

Slow in Dallas Too

Interesting references to Portland's (I know, urban Oz) rail system and the heavy government subsidies it took to get economic development rolling.

I'm going now to wash my car.

#90 Electricron

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:06 AM

Very interesting article in today's Austin American-Statesman about the disappointing lack of economic development around Austin's Metro Rail stops over the last couple of years. I know it won't be music to the urbanism-isticals, but perhaps in-town rail is not the magic economic genie as has been touted.
Economic Development Disappointing Thus Far
The AAS also looked at development around DART stations in the Dallas area and appears to have come to the same conclusion with a few exceptions:

The amount of economic development around train stations is proportional to the number of riders of the trains, which is proportional to the number of trains visiting that station. Most, note I didn't say all, of the economic development at DART train stations have occurred in the central districts before lines start branching off. For example, Mockingbird has tons of economic development where the Red and Blue lines merge, but not Lovers Lane or NW Highway stations. Mockingbird has twice the trains and double the frequency of trains than Lovers Lane or NW Highway. We should see similar economic development results on the tracks for the Green and Orange lines share, up to Bachman Lake.

Austin's Red Line is a commuter rail line more similar to DCTA and TRE than DART, lower frequency means less riders, therefore less development near its stations.

#91 Russ Graham

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 09:45 PM

Saw this note in the ST this morning:

http://www.star-tele...worth-back.html

The 105,800-square-foot facility will have 740 premium horse stalls, exercise arenas, RV parking and 570 linear feet of tunnels. In June 2010, the city borrowed $34.7 million to finance the multipurpose center and other improvements. The city is using its portion of the rental car tax at Dallas/Fort Worth Airport to service the debt, which is scheduled to be paid off in March 2031, but did not go to voters for approval.


Same timeframe and roughly the same amount of money as the streetcar project would have needed. I remember speculation at the time that this was the reason the streetcar was killed.

It's interesting to compare the two projects, if this is the reason the streetcar study was ended. I wonder if somebody could run the numbers on which would have brought more "bang for the buck" to Ft Worth... for one thing, the streetcar would have netted us $25 million right off the top from the feds. What will this shiny new horse barn bring us?

#92 Brian Luenser

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 10:15 PM

I am against streetcars and care nothing about horses activities. But horse barns beat streetcars any day. I would not take the streetcars for free. (And as I always say, the Feds can keep the 25 million they don't have) If they have an extra 25 million bucks sitting around they should make a tiny interest payment to the Chinese on our debt.

I am not a horse guy and very much against any animal "Games", but the Star-Telegram story gives the reason for its need... keeps Fort Worth the horse show place. Horses are huge money. If you want big money in your town attract horse people. (Also see Alice Walton) I would say it is money well spent.
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#93 Jeriat

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 10:54 PM

I want SOME kind of light rail in this city....

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#94 renamerusk

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 11:39 PM

...the city borrowed $34.7 million to finance the multipurpose center and other improvements. The city is using its portion of the rental car tax at Dallas/Fort Worth Airport to service the debt, which is scheduled to be paid off in March 2031, but did not go to voters for approval....I remember speculation at the time that this was the reason the streetcar was killed. It's interesting to compare the two projects, if this is the reason the streetcar study was ended?....


Nothing in recent memory has disappointed me more than the derailment of the Streetcar Starter Project (SSP); that being said, I think that the WRMC Equestrian Center (EC) and the SSP are not the same.

Generally speaking, an arena is not likely to be considered a public good infrastructure project because of its narrow, specific use. The extensive use of federal funds to build projects such as The Ballpark in Arlington or Cowboys Stadium would not be politically palatable. The city's final resolve was to use a specialty auto rental tax in order to have its specialty EC. The WRMC proposed arena to replace the current structure will be faced with the same political hurdle. For instance, the most recent attempt to clear this hurdle was to create a specialty hotel tax specific to Fort Worth only and which in the end was successfully tabled. Give credit to Mr. Jerry Jones whatever his faults; he is one billionaire that at least put in the lion share of the money for his stadium. Would be nice, if our local billionaire was to do the same!

On the other hand, infrastructure projects such as water, roads, schools and transportation are deemed to be in the public good overall; and federal funding is generally expected and sought after. In fact, federal funding was already allocated for the SSP; Fort Worth simply decided in a split vote to refuse the start up money. With the need for jobs, I'm pretty sure that the money to complete vital public good infrastructure projects will be available in the end given the sorry state of the country's aging infrastructure.

The most interesting take away from the new story was how the decision was made to use the specialty tax without a public vote. In the decision to scuttle the SSP, public opinion for decades was favorable to the SSP; and given a public vote, the proponents of the SSP would prevail under the leadership of Mayor Price.

Keep Fort Worth folksy

#95 AndyN

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 09:03 AM

I am considering changing the name of this thread to something other than what is there now. Perhaps something like "2011 Modern Streetcar Effort Ended" and start a new thread, "2012 Modern Streetcar Proposal". I'm sure Brian will be thrilled.
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#96 RD Milhollin

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 09:53 AM

I am considering changing the name of this thread to something other than what is there now. Perhaps something like "2011 Modern Streetcar Effort Ended" and start a new thread, "2012 Modern Streetcar Proposal". I'm sure Brian will be thrilled.


Andy, surely all the work that was done previously does not need to be rehashed. Fort Worth has a new mayor who has new, not just rehashed good-old-boy-downtown-club ideas, and a couple of new council members, but they will need more progressive minds and a better fiscal base to work from to get the streetcar project back "on track". This is now obviously the correct way to go with inner-city transportation, as evidenced with the full-throttle manner in which Dallas is moving ahead with their project.

Again, ditch "The T" and join DART for improved transportation options in North Texas.

#97 Jeriat

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 10:39 AM


I am considering changing the name of this thread to something other than what is there now. Perhaps something like "2011 Modern Streetcar Effort Ended" and start a new thread, "2012 Modern Streetcar Proposal". I'm sure Brian will be thrilled.


Andy, surely all the work that was done previously does not need to be rehashed. Fort Worth has a new mayor who has new, not just rehashed good-old-boy-downtown-club ideas, and a couple of new council members, but they will need more progressive minds and a better fiscal base to work from to get the streetcar project back "on track". This is now obviously the correct way to go with inner-city transportation, as evidenced with the full-throttle manner in which Dallas is moving ahead with their project.

Again, ditch "The T" and join DART for improved transportation options in North Texas.


*sigh*..... I agree.

This is the ONE thing I believe Fort Worth should work with Dallas on. Public transportation.

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#98 renamerusk

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 11:01 AM

... Fort Worth has a new mayor who has new, not just rehashed good-old-boy-downtown-club ideas, and a couple of new council members, but they will need more progressive minds and a better fiscal base to work from to get the streetcar project back "on track". This is now obviously the correct way to go with inner-city transportation, as evidenced with the full-throttle manner in which Dallas is moving ahead with their project.....Again, ditch "The T" and join DART for improved transportation options in North Texas.



In the past I have been disinclined to the idea of Fort Worth (The T) becoming a member of Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) believing that Fort Worth/Tarrant must retain its own identity; but if what is being reported in today's FWST proves yet again to add too an already long string of blunders under the current administration leading The T, then I think it is time for our mayor to consider firing the current administration at The T. The mayor should then fill the board with an entirely new set of administrators who can deliver some accomplishments.

I would not be averse to hiring some DART administrators for their proven expertise and for better regional coordination.

The quest for commuter rail on Fort Worth's north side | Your Commute | News from Fort W...

Keep Fort Worth folksy

#99 Electricron

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 11:23 AM

If Fort Worth is really serious about adding rail components to its transit system, it's going to have to raise the sales tax to subsidize it. A half cent sales tax is sufficient to subsidize a bus transit system, it's not enough to subsidize a bus and rail transit system.
It's taking FWTA decades longer to raise the capital to afford constructing commuter rail lines. Both DART and FWTA started in the early 1980s. In that period, both FWTA and DART have subsidized TRE commuter rail and large bus systems, only DART has been subsidizing construction and operation of a soon to be over 90 mile light rail system.
The TEXrail line has gone through a name change from SW2NE, which hash''t helped to date in gaining a full funding agreement from the FTA or FRA. By the time it does, DART may have found a way to fund and match it with the Cotton Belt line, still leaving DART with it's huge light rail system advantage.
One could argue DART has a larger tax base, but I would argue FWTA could be operating a proportionally smaller light rail system right now if it had been levying a full penny sales tax all this time. As is, it's handicapped by that half cent sales tax into a mostly bus system with very little rail.

#100 Brian Luenser

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 12:39 PM

Fort Worth can't raise their sales taxes as they are at the current maximum. (8.25%)
All they could do would be to give up the Crime Control tax of .5% to make their MTA tax 1%.

But Dallas does have that huge advantage of extra transit money. More people, more sales taxes and double the MTA tax rate. (It is not the function of a genius DART board as it turns out)

So then our choice in Fort Worth might be, a crime ridden city with mass transit or a safer city without. Dallas took the crime + light rail.

I really wish Fort Worth had light rail options. But if I were King, I don't think I would trade the crime tax for a transit tax. Safe beats fast, in my book. I do wish we could increase our sales tax rate, as to me it would be worth it for light rail.
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