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Rainbow Club Incident


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#1 AndyN

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 03:38 PM

Not sure if this topic is too hot for FW Arch Forum but dang if we aren't getting slammed on the Dallas Observer Blog.

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Once again we're all labelled as a big bunch of red neck oppressors.
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#2 AndyN

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 03:46 PM

QUOTE
Why is the behavior of the Fort Worth police surprising? I had the bad judgment to have moved to Fort Worth from the northeast a little over two years ago. I lasted nine months before high-tailing it to downtown Dallas (knowing that Dallas still has a ways to grow). That meant paying rent for my Dallas digs and for my vacated Fort Worth apartment for three months. That is how badly I wanted to get away from what might be the most bigoted, backward backwater in the USA. Fort Worth is a city of 800,000 people with the mentality of some rural Alabama hell hole. One ruling family jealously controls everything downtown. Who can imagine in 2009 a city that large not having a downtown with stores, food markets, post offices, dry cleaners, liquor stores, and other amenities that are standard in even the smallest of cities. Why is this family so opposed to making downtown liveable? Is it because the "wrong sort of people" might want to make it their home? The police are a ubiquitous, menacing presence downtown, giving it the feel of a state of marshal law. Restaurants and bars exist only for the legions of office workers from the far-flung suburbs. There is still a lingering hatred of anyone from north of the Mason-Dixon line, and an inhospitable attitude that I wholly did not expect from Texans. To be sure, Dallas has a way to go, but I'm heartened by its "we want you" feel as opposed to Fort Worth's "go away" sentiment.


All 800,000 of us are ignorant surburbanite Alabama escapees. Talk about painting with a broad brush.
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#3 cbellomy

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 04:57 PM

That comment is exactly right. This city is horrible in every way, and in others as well. Do not come over here or we will kill you and/or your pets and/or possibly that cockroach over there. STOMP. See, I told you we would.

...

As you can see, I'm giving that comment exactly the consideration it deserves.

#4 Templeofheaven

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 05:51 PM

Ironically enough we had just talked about attracting more gays and artists, and that’s usually a sign of a larger "creative class", which our city administration wants to attract. mellow.gif

#5 ramjet

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 05:52 PM

True, that comment is ridiculous. And I'm sure many Fort Worth citizens are rightly concerned. But a raid on a gay bar on the 40th anniversary of Stonewall is about as tone deaf and bone headed as it comes. What some bitter Dallasonian thinks - I don't care so much. But this story has international legs, and I do care about Fort Worth's image. So much for attracting the creative class. Two steps forward, 40 years of steps back. The city needs to do some serious damage control in my opinion...

Another article (there were over 100 on international news feeds...)

Fort Worth Police Celebrate Gay Pride, Texas Style




#6 Papaw

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 07:33 PM

I honestly doubt if the Fort Worth Police or anyone involved in this raid ever considered the 40th anniversary of stonewall - whatever that is. They are probably like me and never even heard of stonewall. They had a job to do and did it and there is always protesters that that feel their rights were violated by associating the action to some other remotely related event that might have happened on some sort of time similarity. I think if this thread goes much further it will possible lead to some pretty heavy opinions that will boil down to a gay - straight discussion that could get a little nasty.
I never heard of gays or lesbians until I was in high school and at that time they were referred to with a different name. This did happen to be about the same time I heard of people coming in from the North as Yankees. In no way am I saying these two classes are related as they certainly are not! I am just stating how many true native Texans seemed so isolated from other accents and different traditions for so many years, although I am sure we have had a little bit of social variety around for a long time - it just wasn't as open as it is now.

#7 Brian Luenser

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 08:33 PM

QUOTE (Templeofheaven @ Jun 29 2009, 06:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ironically enough we had just talked about attracting more gays and artists, and that’s usually a sign of a larger "creative class", which our city administration wants to attract. mellow.gif


I personally don't care where gay people live but I will say most of the gay people I know are neither creative nor artistic.
(not saying they don't have as good of odds of being so)

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#8 Fort Worthology

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 08:36 PM

I want to know more of the facts before I completely slam FWPD and TABC, but yes - this is horrible for Fort Worth. For all the progress we made, it just takes an incident like this to send it crashing down in the eyes of the world.

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#9 Recyclican

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 09:24 PM

For all you Facebookers, there is a group out there to discuss and share news about the incident: http://www.facebook....id=109253439840

#10 Keller Pirate

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 09:38 PM

It's possible things went down the way the FWPD says they did, or maybe gay bars have a preplanned action plan for raids to make the police look bad, but I am skeptical. This just doesn't smell right. I agree with Papaw, I don't think the police had any idea about Stonewall, if they did I'm sure they would have been smart enough to not make any anniversary raids on gay bars.

As for attracting the creative class, that may have to wait a while now. However, the folks I saw on TV didn't look to be much more creative than me, I stand by my statements on the other thread, about gays being no more creative than straight people. Florida was talking about celebrities, not creative people, he is caught up in our celebrity driven society.

I think the new police chief needs to get a grip on his department. For an incident of this magnitude he came out in full defense of his people too quick, better to have taken a wait and investigate position.

#11 cbellomy

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 09:58 PM

All I can say is that I'm sure there were a great many more drunks at Billy Bob's than at the Rainbow. The TABC's choice was, at best, suspect.

#12 Templeofheaven

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 10:54 PM

QUOTE (monee9696 @ Jun 29 2009, 09:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Templeofheaven @ Jun 29 2009, 06:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ironically enough we had just talked about attracting more gays and artists, and that’s usually a sign of a larger "creative class", which our city administration wants to attract. mellow.gif


I personally don't care where gay people live but I will say most of the gay people I know are neither creative nor artistic.
(not saying they don't have as good of odds of being so)



I think Mr. Florida might mean that where you find more gays, you find more creative class... not necessarily gays themselves are synonyms of the creative class.

Is the word gays less respectful? Sorry if it is!

#13 Fort Worthology

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 07:28 AM

Yes, it's not about "gay = creative." I imagine it has something more to do with one finding more creative types in places where they feel free to be themselves without worrying about getting their skull cracked.

(And no, we don't really know what went down at the Rainbow Lounge - this is more a perception thing, as evidenced by the Observer comments and the like.)

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#14 shipman

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 10:34 AM

I have a straight friend who was there with some lady friends of his that night, and he tells me that the police were being VERY intimidating, and came on really strong with no visible provocation...

I mean, come on, whether or not the police knew about Stonewall or not, no one should have ended up at the ICU as a result of a "routine" TABC inspection...

#15 cjyoung

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 11:07 AM

QUOTE (AndyN @ Jun 29 2009, 04:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not sure if this topic is too hot for FW Arch Forum but dang if we aren't getting slammed on the Dallas Observer Blog.

Dallas Observer's Unfair Park

Once again we're all labelled as a big bunch of red neck oppressors.


Who cares what they think!

#16 jefffwd

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 11:26 AM

QUOTE (Atomic Glee @ Jun 29 2009, 09:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I want to know more of the facts before I completely slam FWPD and TABC, but yes - this is horrible for Fort Worth. For all the progress we made, it just takes an incident like this to send it crashing down in the eyes of the world.


Kevin,

If you want to find out the real story contact former Star-Telegram staffer Todd Camp who was there celebrating his birthday.


#17 jefffwd

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 11:37 AM

The Dallas Morning News had a great article regarding the incident in this morning's paper...

Fort Worth police better start clarifying gay bar 'check'
Jacquielynn Floyd

12:00 AM CDT on Tuesday, June 30, 2009

The Fort Worth Police Department still has some explaining to do about what happened early Sunday at a southside gay bar called the Rainbow Lounge.

Or some clarifying or some illuminating or some supplementary detailing – anything to mitigate the apparently self-administered public-relations shot-to-the-foot it suffered after what it keeps calling a routine "bar check."

'Cause – Problem No. 1 – bar patrons who were there say it wasn't a "check," it was a "raid." Problem No. 2, this particular "check" ended with a kid in the intensive-care unit with a head injury.

Problem No. 3, in what I can only hope is a spectacularly infelicitous coincidence, all this took place on the 40th anniversary of the Stonewall Raid.

The short version is this: About 1 a.m. Sunday, two Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission agents and six FWPD cops showed up at the club for an inspection.

These checks, which have gotten a lot of attention in the last few years, target bars in search of patrons who are obviously intoxicated.

Well, I'm certainly willing to believe it is possible to find a drunk in a bar at 1 a.m. The TABC carries these out with an eye to curbing public intoxication and drunken driving, as well as reminding bartenders that it is illegal to serve somebody who is already loaded.

At this point, however, accounts between patrons and police diverge.

Police Chief Jeff Halstead has said only that there will be a thorough investigation.

But in an earlier official statement, police said they encountered hostile, argumentative drunks, some of whom "made sexually explicit movements" (my imagination runs wild) toward the officers. One young patron allegedly "assaulted [a] TABC agent by grabbing the TABC agent's groin."

OK, hold on. First, witnesses say the officers showed up ready to make arrests, their fists full of plastic zip-cuffs.

"They were hyped up. They were loaded for bear," said Todd Camp, a veteran journalist who was there celebrating his birthday with friends. "They were just randomly grabbing people, telling them they were drunk."

Camp told me he has been in bars during TABC/police "checks" before, "and it was never anything like this." Usually, he said, officers discreetly walk through, looking for anybody who has had too much. This was different.

"They were shoving patrons," Camp said, "asking, 'How much have you had to drink?' "

Maybe you can call that a difference in perception, a disagreement over the degree of aggressiveness on both sides.

But there are flat contradictions about how Chad Gibson was injured. The Dallas Voice reported Monday that Gibson is hospitalized with bleeding around his brain.

"He was taken down hard," said Camp, with "four or five" officers wrestling him to the floor inside the club.

Cellphone photos shot by patrons and posted to blogs show a person being held facedown by officers in a short hallway inside the club, then show a dent in the wall where his head was apparently banged.

But a Fort Worth police spokesman told me Gibson was injured outside , when he fell and struck his head because he was so drunk.

"He was the one that groped the TABC agent," said Sgt. Pedro Criado. "He was injured by falling and hitting his head."

When I asked Sgt. Criado how he identified Gibson as the "groper," he said he was reading from a police report filed by cops on the scene. I asked for further details, but he said I'd have to file a Freedom of Information request.

"The truth will come out. We don't want to make any assumptions," he said. "We got to gather all the facts."

What Camp says, and what other people who claim to have been there say in comments posted to news stories, is that they were scared.

"I hate to say I was afraid of my own police department, but I was," Camp said.

His description of frightened, distraught patrons just does not seem to square with police accounts of being subjected to a drunken, groin-grabbing gantlet during a routine "bar inspection."

Fort Worth is a fine and tolerant city. The police officers I personally know over there are decent, stand-up people. But today, in the Twitter-and-blog-enabled process of rapid dissemination, they're getting an ugly reputation.

And the flames of indiscriminate opinion about Texas being a stagnant backwater of vicious, insular, hate-crazed xenophobes dance higher.

So, Fort Worth, we need some answers, please, and quickly.

This is no time to stonewall.


#18 Brian Luenser

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 12:01 PM

Story on this on Channel 5 last night. (Maybe other channels as well.) I heard the police version. (and they weren't drunk at the time.)

Exact quote was, "Police said Gibson groped an officer, was extremely drunk, and hit his head when he fell on his own."

I surely was not there. But A: I tend to side with law enforcement's version of things and B: I tend to believe sober people over intoxicated people.

Talk that the Police did this check on the 40th anniversary of some event nobody ever heard of is the silliest of the stories.
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#19 Fort Worthology

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 12:07 PM

QUOTE (monee9696 @ Jun 30 2009, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Story on this on Channel 5 last night. (Maybe other channels as well.) I heard the police version. (and they weren't drunk at the time.)

Exact quote was, "Police said Gibson groped an officer, was extremely drunk, and hit his head when he fell on his own."

I surely was not there. But A: I tend to side with law enforcement's version of things and B: I tend to believe sober people over intoxicated people.



The police say the guy fell on his own outside because he was drunk. Patrons - and cell phone camera shots, apparently - show him being thrown to the ground inside the club with 4-6 officers on top of him.

I'm not sure who to believe 100%, but things frankly aren't looking too good for the official line here.

(EDIT: I also wouldn't say that Stonewall is "some event nobody ever heard of" - it's pretty well-known in LGBT communities from what I gather, and elsewhere. Even if FWPD had no clue about it - and they probably didn't - doesn't mean that the knowledge of it by others and the timing doesn't make FWPD look *horrible* in this to the affected groups.)

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#20 jefffwd

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 12:39 PM

QUOTE (monee9696 @ Jun 30 2009, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Story on this on Channel 5 last night. (Maybe other channels as well.) I heard the police version. (and they weren't drunk at the time.)

Exact quote was, "Police said Gibson groped an officer, was extremely drunk, and hit his head when he fell on his own."

I surely was not there. But A: I tend to side with law enforcement's version of things and B: I tend to believe sober people over intoxicated people.

Talk that the Police did this check on the 40th anniversary of some event nobody ever heard of is the silliest of the stories.


The 40th anniversary of some event nobody ever heard of!?!?! Are you freaking kidding me? madgo.gif

Let me educate you with a little history...

The Stonewall riots were a series of spontaneous, violent demonstrations against a police raid that took place in the early morning hours of June 28, 1969, at the Stonewall Inn, in the Greenwich Village neighborhood of New York City. They are frequently cited as the first instance in American history when people in the homosexual community fought back against a government-sponsored system that persecuted sexual minorities, and they have become the defining event that marked the start of the gay rights movement in the United States and around the world.

American gays and lesbians in the 1950s and 1960s faced a legal system more anti-homosexual than those of some Warsaw Pact countries. Early homophile groups in the U.S. sought to prove that gay people could be assimilated into society, and they favored non-confrontational education for homosexuals and heterosexuals alike. The last years of the 1960s, however, were very contentious, as many social movements were active, including the African American Civil Rights Movement, the Counterculture of the 1960s, and antiwar demonstrations. These influences, along with the liberal environment of Greenwich Village, served as catalysts for the Stonewall riots.

Very few establishments welcomed openly gay people in the 1950s and 1960s. Those that did were often bars, although bar owners and managers were rarely gay. The Stonewall Inn, at the time, was owned by the Mafia. It catered to an assortment of patrons, but it was known to be popular with the poorest and most marginalized people in the gay community: drag queens, and representatives of a newly self-aware transgender community, effeminate young men, hustlers, and homeless youth. Police raids on gay bars were routine in the 1960s, but officers quickly lost control of the situation at the Stonewall Inn, and attracted a crowd that was incited to riot. Tensions between New York City police and gay residents of Greenwich Village erupted into more protests the next evening, and again several nights later. Within weeks, Village residents quickly organized into activist groups to concentrate efforts on establishing places for gays and lesbians to be open about their sexual orientation without fear of being arrested.

After the Stonewall riots, gays and lesbians in New York City faced gender, class, and generational obstacles to becoming a cohesive community. Within six months, two gay activist organizations were formed in New York, concentrating on confrontational tactics, and three newspapers were established to promote rights for gays and lesbians. Within a few years, gay rights organizations were founded across the U.S. and the world. On June 28, 1970, the first Gay Pride marches took place in Los Angeles and New York commemorating the anniversary of the riots. Similar marches were organized in other cities. Today, Gay Pride events are held annually throughout the world toward the end of June to mark the Stonewall riots.

Oh, and I can see why you would "tend to side with law enforcement's version of things" because we all know that the police are not capable of being unethical http://www.talkleft....tion/misconduct and one last thing... just because someone is out with friends having drinks does not automatically mean that they are intoxicated. Don't you ever go out with friends for drinks without becoming wasted or do you just sit on your balcony and take pictures? glare.gif

#21 Brian Luenser

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 01:40 PM

QUOTE (jefffwd @ Jun 30 2009, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (monee9696 @ Jun 30 2009, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Story on this on Channel 5 last night. (Maybe other channels as well.) I heard the police version. (and they weren't drunk at the time.)

Exact quote was, "Police said Gibson groped an officer, was extremely drunk, and hit his head when he fell on his own."

I surely was not there. But A: I tend to side with law enforcement's version of things and B: I tend to believe sober people over intoxicated people.

Talk that the Police did this check on the 40th anniversary of some event nobody ever heard of is the silliest of the stories.


The 40th anniversary of some event nobody ever heard of!?!?! Are you freaking kidding me? madgo.gif

Let me educate you with a little history...

The Stonewall riots were a series of spontaneous, violent demonstrations against a police raid that took place in the early morning hours of June 28, 1969, at the Stonewall Inn, in the Greenwich Village neighborhood of New York City. They are frequently cited as the first instance in American history when people in the homosexual community fought back against a government-sponsored system that persecuted sexual minorities, and they have become the defining event that marked the start of the gay rights movement in the United States and around the world.

American gays and lesbians in the 1950s and 1960s faced a legal system more anti-homosexual than those of some Warsaw Pact countries. Early homophile groups in the U.S. sought to prove that gay people could be assimilated into society, and they favored non-confrontational education for homosexuals and heterosexuals alike. The last years of the 1960s, however, were very contentious, as many social movements were active, including the African American Civil Rights Movement, the Counterculture of the 1960s, and antiwar demonstrations. These influences, along with the liberal environment of Greenwich Village, served as catalysts for the Stonewall riots.

Very few establishments welcomed openly gay people in the 1950s and 1960s. Those that did were often bars, although bar owners and managers were rarely gay. The Stonewall Inn, at the time, was owned by the Mafia. It catered to an assortment of patrons, but it was known to be popular with the poorest and most marginalized people in the gay community: drag queens, and representatives of a newly self-aware transgender community, effeminate young men, hustlers, and homeless youth. Police raids on gay bars were routine in the 1960s, but officers quickly lost control of the situation at the Stonewall Inn, and attracted a crowd that was incited to riot. Tensions between New York City police and gay residents of Greenwich Village erupted into more protests the next evening, and again several nights later. Within weeks, Village residents quickly organized into activist groups to concentrate efforts on establishing places for gays and lesbians to be open about their sexual orientation without fear of being arrested.

After the Stonewall riots, gays and lesbians in New York City faced gender, class, and generational obstacles to becoming a cohesive community. Within six months, two gay activist organizations were formed in New York, concentrating on confrontational tactics, and three newspapers were established to promote rights for gays and lesbians. Within a few years, gay rights organizations were founded across the U.S. and the world. On June 28, 1970, the first Gay Pride marches took place in Los Angeles and New York commemorating the anniversary of the riots. Similar marches were organized in other cities. Today, Gay Pride events are held annually throughout the world toward the end of June to mark the Stonewall riots.

Oh, and I can see why you would "tend to side with law enforcement's version of things" because we all know that the police are not capable of being unethical http://www.talkleft....tion/misconduct and one last thing... just because someone is out with friends having drinks does not automatically mean that they are intoxicated. Don't you ever go out with friends for drinks without becoming wasted or do you just sit on your balcony and take pictures? glare.gif


I only sit on my balcony and take pictures
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#22 FoUTASportscaster

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 02:14 PM

QUOTE (monee9696 @ Jun 30 2009, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Story on this on Channel 5 last night. (Maybe other channels as well.) I heard the police version. (and they weren't drunk at the time.)

Exact quote was, "Police said Gibson groped an officer, was extremely drunk, and hit his head when he fell on his own."

I surely was not there. But A: I tend to side with law enforcement's version of things and B: I tend to believe sober people over intoxicated people.

Talk that the Police did this check on the 40th anniversary of some event nobody ever heard of is the silliest of the stories.


There were also pictures taken showing a head-sized hole next to a bleeding head inside the club. There are times where personal feelings get in the way of policing duties.

#23 Sam Stone

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 02:26 PM

This whole thing is terrible. I hope that poor guy is ok. I saw it on CNN and it definitely makes FW look bad.

I happen to think that the TABC has no business looking for drunk people. Their activities should be restricted to licensing and tax collection. For the record, I don't think any law enforcement agency has any business looking for drunk people unless they are behind the wheel of a car.

#24 jefffwd

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 02:35 PM

QUOTE (Sam Stone @ Jun 30 2009, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This whole thing is terrible. I hope that poor guy is ok. I saw it on CNN and it definitely makes FW look bad.

I happen to think that the TABC has no business looking for drunk people. Their activities should be restricted to licensing and tax collection. For the record, I don't think any law enforcement agency has any business looking for drunk people unless they are behind the wheel of a car.


From NBC5:


"We were walking this way to the bathroom,” said Gibson’s friend, Matt Meador, pointing to the back of the bar. “I had his hand.”

Meador said a Fort Worth officer shoved Gibson against the wall without provocation, apparently offended the two men were holding hands.

Two other witnesses also insisted Gibson had done nothing, and was not resisting when two other officers and a TABC agent jumped in.

"After they pulled his head back, he had time to ask, ‘What's going on?’" said Rocky Croker.

Officers tied Gibson's hands behind his back before they threw him to the ground, hitting his head on a step, the witnesses said.

They said a TABC agent later held him down outside.

"They had him down like this with his knee in his back,” Meador said.

Fort Worth Police Chief Jeffrey Halstead said he ordered an internal investigation after learning a patron in police custody was seriously injured.

"In the police report, it stated he was handcuffed and showed signs of over intoxication, possible alcohol poisoning, and he fell face first," Halstead said.

The chief said police check bars all the time looking for drunken patrons, and were not targeting this one.

"If anyone was a witness to something they feel was unprofessional, they need to come forward," the chief said.

Other questions involve the police timetable.

Police wrote Gibson a ticket for public intoxication and assaulting an officer at 2:10 a.m., noting he couldn't sign the ticket because he was "at the hospital."

But Medstar ambulance service reported it didn't get the call for “an assault” outside the bar until 2:22 a.m., 12 minutes later.

Gibson’s friends say his head injury occurred even earlier.

"A good 30, 45 minutes before they even called the ambulance,” Croker said.

Chad's mother said her son will remain in the hospital at least a week as doctors try to control bleeding on his brain.

"I think they made a big mistake when they did what they did,” Karen Carter said. “And they're trying to cover it up now."

Carter said a neurologist told her that her son's injury could not have been caused by a simple fall.

Councilman Joel Burns, the first openly gay elected official in Tarrant County, said he is also looking into what happened.

"I've asked for as thorough a report as possible ... to reassure folks that the police are not singling out any group," Burns said Monday.

Mayor Pro Tem Kathleen Hicks said she was "very concerned" after hearing from patrons and others in the community about what happened.

George Armstrong, 41, said he had been at the Rainbow Lounge about 30 minutes and had ordered one drink when officers stormed inside. He said as an officer passed him, he smiled and flashed the peace sign, but then he was suddenly grabbed and tackled to the floor with his arm twisted behind his back.

"He was yelling at me to stop resisting arrest, but I wasn't doing anything. It was horrible. I really thought he had broken my shoulder," Armstrong told The Associated Press on Monday.

"I've never been so embarrassed and humiliated. I didn't do anything to him," he said.

Armstrong was arrested, but he said no officers advised him of his Miranda rights or administered any tests to determine his blood-alcohol level.

He said he noticed that other people who were arrested were injured or said police had tackled them.

When Armstrong was released from jail the next day, he went to the hospital, where his arm was put in a sling after X-rays determined his shoulder and back were severely bruised and strained, he said.

Armstrong said he never saw anyone inside the Rainbow Lounge make lewd gestures at or grab the officers. He said the raid happened very quickly at the club that had just reopened.

"To me it seemed like they were trying to make a point," Armstrong said.

The Human Rights Campaign on Monday also called for an investigation into the incident. It is the nation's largest lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender civil rights organization.


#25 Keller Pirate

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 05:00 PM

QUOTE (Keller Pirate @ Jun 29 2009, 10:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the new police chief needs to get a grip on his department. For an incident of this magnitude he came out in full defense of his people too quick, better to have taken a wait and investigate position.

I am forced to retract this comment. The first clip I saw of the chief must have been edited to only show him defending his officers. He seems to be committed to an investigation of the incident, which is the smart thing to do, no matter what he really thinks happened.

Further thoughts, remember a few years ago when the TABC went into some hotel bars in Dallas with TV reporters in tow and arrested patrons for public intoxication? It made news around the country and later Dallas complained that they were losing convention business because nobody wanted to come to Dallas to get arrested in a bar. Seems to me TABC didn't learn much from that incident and now they have extended the favor to Ft Worth.

I also think the police are making too much out of the groping gesture or attempted grope, whatever it was. I believe that policeman routinely grope suspects when they arrest them to make sure they aren't hiding weapons, and they practice techniques on each other. I know it isn't the same thing, but they are the ones placing a lot of value on it. Sort of like an excuse.


#26 Papaw

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Posted 30 June 2009 - 05:06 PM

jeffwd - Thanks for the history as I really had never heard of this before and I feel there are more people that have not heard of it than there are that have heard of it.

#27 UncaMikey

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 09:23 AM

This is a really sad incident. TABC cops have had a reputation over many years of being abusive and out of control.

#28 cbellomy

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 09:27 PM

Here's my paranoid hypothesis about this incident. Did I mention that it's paranoid? Yes, this is paranoid. And probably wrong. But worth a moment's thought, I think.

Imagine a wealthy FW insider with ties to the oil and gas business is unhappy with the current representation out of District 9 on the City Council. Imagine he has close ties to the governor and has the juice to get a raid like this arranged, only one week into the existence of this new club. Imagine he wants to set up a confrontation between District 9's councilman (who happens to be gay) and the FW Police, to drive a wedge between them.

Imagine that he knows about Stonewall Day, even if the cops and TABC don't. Imagine that he knows the reaction will be amplified if the raid takes place on that date.

Imagine there are millions of dollars on the line for him and his friends if the Council remains friendly to gas drilling interests.

Plausible?


#29 Dismuke

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 09:43 PM

QUOTE (Sam Stone @ Jun 30 2009, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I happen to think that the TABC has no business looking for drunk people. Their activities should be restricted to licensing and tax collection. For the record, I don't think any law enforcement agency has any business looking for drunk people unless they are behind the wheel of a car.


I agree completely. The whole notion of "public intoxication" is profoundly dubious as far as I am concerned. If they get behind the wheel of a car, that is a different matter. So why not just station undercover cops outside of bars and arrest any obviously intoxicated person who gets in and starts a car - and leave any who might be passengers, ride the bus home or crawl home on the sidewalk alone?

Also, is it usual practice for so many officers to show up for something like that? Eight (two state and six Fort Worth) strikes me as an awful lot.

Not to sound stereotypical or anything, but do patrons of gay bars in particular have some sort of track record that would give cause for one to believe that they are more inclined towards violence than, say, patrons of other types of bars in certain other parts of town? It strikes me as kind of odd that a newspaper reporter would be patronizing the sort of establishment where the police would have legitimate concerns about being especially violent.

Obviously, anybody who is unable to set aside whatever personal opinions, biases, prejudices and dislikes they may have and behave in an impartial, professional manner has zero business being in law enforcement.

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#30 Dismuke

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 09:52 PM

QUOTE (cbellomy @ Jul 1 2009, 10:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Imagine a wealthy FW insider with ties to the oil and gas business is unhappy with the current representation out of District 9 on the City Council. Imagine he has close ties to the governor and has the juice to get a raid like this arranged, only one week into the existence of this new club. Imagine he wants to set up a confrontation between District 9's councilman (who happens to be gay) and the FW Police, to drive a wedge between them.

Imagine that he knows about Stonewall Day, even if the cops and TABC don't. Imagine that he knows the reaction will be amplified if the raid takes place on that date.

Imagine there are millions of dollars on the line for him and his friends if the Council remains friendly to gas drilling interests.

Plausible?



I am not sure I understand it. How would a confrontation and wedge between the District 9 councilman and the Fort Worth police have an impact one way or another on the District 9 councilman's or any other council person's position on gas drilling? I don't see the connection. Are you suggesting that there might be some sort of backlash in District 9 against the councilman? I don't see how that would happen. After all, it was already widely known before the election that he is gay. If there is a backlash, it would be against the police - and I don't see how that would impact gas drilling.
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#31 Papaw

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 09:59 PM

At least this is taking a little attention off Michael Jackson but both are equally as trivial. What impact do either one of these events have on the average persons life? I thought health care and the economy were getting worn out but I will welcome them back into the headlines to replace this crap.

#32 cbellomy

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 10:22 PM

Dismuke, the link I neglected to write was that the point of the wedge was to separate Burns from an important constituency for re-election, in the process making defeating him easier.

#33 cbellomy

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 10:24 PM

QUOTE (Papaw @ Jul 1 2009, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
At least this is taking a little attention off Michael Jackson but both are equally as trivial. What impact do either one of these events have on the average persons life?


Whenever law enforcement agencies encroach on the human rights of the citizens, it's an urgent thing and a major story. You don't know, it could be some group you're in that gets singled out next.

#34 Dismuke

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 10:40 PM

QUOTE (Papaw @ Jul 1 2009, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What impact do either one of these events have on the average persons life?


With regard to Michael Jackson, zero influence, unless one happens to be a fan.

With regard to the TABC incident - I would think that a police department which treats citizens in an unnecessarily rough manner and behaves differently towards one group of citizens than any other group of citizens is something that could have a great deal of impact on an average person's life. It doesn't matter whether or not you happen to be gay. At some point in the future, YOU or someone YOU care about might very well end up in some sort of group that is singled out and targeted by government officials, be they the local police, the IRS or various regulatory agencies.

Now, I am NOT suggesting anything necessarily was done inappropriately on the part of the Fort Worth police or even the TABC because I simply do not know and have no means of knowing what happened. But complaints and accusations of this sort must ALWAYS be investigated and thoroughly looked into because the potential consequences of official abuse of police powers or an out of control rogue element within a police department are PROFOUNDLY dangerous. One of the things that differentiates the United States from a great many country is that peaceful, law abiding people can walk the streets and go about their lives WITHOUT having to be afraid of the police - and peaceful, law abiding people who happen to be gay should be no exception.

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#35 Dismuke

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Posted 01 July 2009 - 11:42 PM

QUOTE (cbellomy @ Jul 1 2009, 11:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Dismuke, the link I neglected to write was that the point of the wedge was to separate Burns from an important constituency for re-election, in the process making defeating him easier.



I would think that would be a very risky, politically stupid and potentially suicidal thing for a governor to be party to. If word got out, that would definitely be a scandal. My guess is ALL governors from time to time have to say "no" to rich backers in order to protect their own political viability and that they quickly learn how to do so in a diplomatic sort of way.

If I were the sort inclined to come up with conspiracy theories, my first question would be: who owns the club and who might have a reason for wanting to frighten away this person's customers? Not that I am actually asking such a question.
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#36 FoUTASportscaster

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 05:55 AM

QUOTE (cbellomy @ Jul 1 2009, 11:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Dismuke, the link I neglected to write was that the point of the wedge was to separate Burns from an important constituency for re-election, in the process making defeating him easier.


Subjugation against one is a threat to subjugation of all.

Tolerance of this type of behavior equates to condoning the behavior.

All men are created equal.

#37 cbellomy

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 09:21 AM

QUOTE (Dismuke @ Jul 2 2009, 12:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (cbellomy @ Jul 1 2009, 11:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Dismuke, the link I neglected to write was that the point of the wedge was to separate Burns from an important constituency for re-election, in the process making defeating him easier.



I would think that would be a very risky, politically stupid and potentially suicidal thing for a governor to be party to. If word got out, that would definitely be a scandal.


"Hey Bill... get Jones at TABC on the phone and ask his folks to take a look at this new gay bar in Fort Worth this weekend. The neighbors aren't very happy about it being there in the first place... let's make sure they're following the law to the letter."

Plausible deniability is easy.


#38 JKC

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 09:30 AM

QUOTE (cbellomy @ Jul 1 2009, 10:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Here's my paranoid hypothesis about this incident. Did I mention that it's paranoid? Yes, this is paranoid. And probably wrong. But worth a moment's thought, I think.

Imagine a wealthy FW insider with ties to the oil and gas business is unhappy with the current representation out of District 9 on the City Council. Imagine he has close ties to the governor and has the juice to get a raid like this arranged, only one week into the existence of this new club. Imagine he wants to set up a confrontation between District 9's councilman (who happens to be gay) and the FW Police, to drive a wedge between them.

Imagine that he knows about Stonewall Day, even if the cops and TABC don't. Imagine that he knows the reaction will be amplified if the raid takes place on that date.

Imagine there are millions of dollars on the line for him and his friends if the Council remains friendly to gas drilling interests.

Plausible?


Not in the least.. I suggest that you change your profile photo or at least stop staring at it!! rolleyes.gif

#39 cbellomy

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 10:53 AM

Maybe I've seen "Chinatown" one time too many. tongue.gif

#40 Dismuke

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 11:01 AM

QUOTE (cbellomy @ Jul 2 2009, 10:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Plausible deniability is easy.



Here is the problem with conspiracy theories such as yours - they lack evidence. One cannot even put them in some sort of halfway category and say "well, perhaps it's possible." To assert that something is possible also requires evidence.

Is it possible that cbellomy is mean to small children and kicks puppy dogs? Well, it is true that cbellomy has the capacity to engage in such behavior if he choses to do so - as is the case with everybody. But to assert the possibility that YOU in particular engage in such behavior requires at least some amount of evidence. Otherwise, it places you in an impossible position. Prove to us that you are NOT mean to small children and that you DON'T kick puppy dogs. You can't do so - it is not possible to prove a negative. Thus all of the burden always rests with the person making the assertion.

In terms of the Rainbow Club incident, one could just as easily come up with a similar conspiracy for pretty much anybody who might have had some potential motive to wish for or potentially benefit from the outcome of events.

For example - one could easily concoct something up along these lines: The head of some radical Gay Power organization is frustrated and concerned. Revenues are way down. Rent on the organization's offices is due in a few weeks and the money to pay it does not exist. The last fund raising letters had weak response. There's just way too much tolerance going on out there. Heck, in Fort Worth, first they elect a gay council member. Then this Baptist church there gets kicked out of its parent organization for being too nice to gay people. Then the Chamber of Commerce listens to some speaker talk about how it would benefit the city to have more gay people living there - and the locals on a city specific message board have a thread about the same thing and nobody on the board is talking about what a blight gay people are on the morals of the community and that they should thus be kept out. And this is in Fort Worth. All Texans are supposed to be redneck bigots. And Fort Worth has the Stockyards - one would at least expect homophobia in that city. If this keeps up, the head of the organization might end up being out of a job and a career - it is hard to make a career out of fighting oppression if not as many people are being oppressed. And while there is still bigotry out there, it is becoming increasing underground and thus less visible with fewer dramatic incidents that make it to the news and are thus the subject of great fund raising letters. What's needed is some REALLY big event that will SHOW the world that Texas IS still a redneck backwater and SHOW that things really haven't changed much since the riots 40 years ago and CONVINCE people that they need to once again send in big donations to The Cause. Oh, and then there is this big wig state official down in Texas - the social conservative with a picture perfect wife and kids who visits out-of-state gay bars on State sponsored business trips and who once made a sexual advance towards the head of the organization. The head of the organization knows what this official is all about - too bad his wife and kids don't. The head of the organization effectively OWNS this official - and now is a good time to cash in on it. So he picks up a phone and orders the official to have the TABC pull off a raid to be conducted specifically in Fort Worth on the anniversary of Stonewall in such a way that it will make national headlines. A new fund raising letter goes out stressing the urgency of the situation. The letter is a great success and money flows in - more than enough to cover the rent. Problem solved.

Of course the problem with the above is it is all completely arbitrary. How is that any different than your conspiracy theory?

I am not saying that conspiracy theories are always inappropriate to post - and you did the right thing by, in so many words, labeling yours as such. I think there are times when it is ok to engage in speculation, especially when it comes to the motivation of certain public officials. There are times when I have observed patterns of behavior on the part of politicians and have engaged in speculation as to "what is he really after?" "what is his grand strategy?" But any such speculation needs to be clearly labeled as such. Conspiracy theories are sometimes fun to think about - in the same way that fictional stories are fun to think about.

But when it comes to asking people if a given theory is plausible or to make it the subject of serious consideration and discussion as if it was a valid possibility - that requires evidence. So the question regarding your conspiracy theory really comes down to: where's your evidence? The little conspiracy theory that I presented above offers zero evidence - and thus what any rational person must do is simply dismiss it out of hand as being arbitrary and as having no more cognitive value than someone's invented fiction, which is what it, in fact, was. How is your conspiracy theory different?
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#41 cbellomy

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 01:27 PM

Dismuke, I chose "hypothesis" over "theory" on purpose. A hypothesis, of course, is just a guess -- an educated guess, sure, but still just a guess. And I did say that I was probably wrong.

I trotted the idea out there not to start pointing fingers, but rather to attempt to conjure a possible motive for TABC to do what they did, which at this point, to these eyes, looks... very odd. As the story unfolds, I think the possibility of some sort of underlying political chicanery shouldn't be discounted, especially if a wedge between the police and Burns develops and an insider attempts to exploit it come the next election. I think this sort of thing has happened in Texas more than most ever realize.

That said, there is no evidence to support it, at least not yet. I wouldn't be shocked, though, if the story went that direction. That's all I mean by this.

#42 Papaw

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 06:53 PM

This raid must have stirred up more public interest than I realized. While discussing this with a number of friends and neighbors there were two questions that were brought up that I honestly don't have an answer to.

Since the Broadway Baptist controversy over gay membership and with the location of it and most of these gay bars in the same approximate area, could it be stated that this is a homosexual neighborhood of Fort Worth?

Are homosexuals born that way making it hard or impossible to ever straighten up or do they choose this path at a later time due to their reactions to personal or social pressures?

#43 ramjet

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 08:05 PM

QUOTE (Papaw @ Jul 2 2009, 07:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This raid must have stirred up more public interest than I realized. While discussing this with a number of friends and neighbors there were two questions that were brought up that I honestly don't have an answer to.

Since the Broadway Baptist controversy over gay membership and with the location of it and most of these gay bars in the same approximate area, could it be stated that this is a homosexual neighborhood of Fort Worth?

Are homosexuals born that way making it hard or impossible to ever straighten up or do they choose this path at a later time due to their reactions to personal or social pressures?


I think the fact that this bar is close to Broadway Baptist Church is a coincidence. I'd guess most gay Broadway members are the Rivercrest/Westover types. I don't think Fort Worth really has a "gay" neighborhood - say, like Oak Lawn in Dallas. Even the notion of a gay neighborhood is so 1990. Most of world has moved on and gay folks have assimilated into all kinds of neighborhoods across the world. (And we're great for real estate values, by the way. We dig interesting architecture, are willing to take risks in transitional neighborhoods, rehab homes in stylish paint colors and accents, and keep our yards!)

Being one (a gay), I believe it's born in. Comes with formerly blond hair, big feet, and propensity to learn many languages. If not, I think my and my family's close affiliation with the Southern Baptists and all their many edicts would have scared me into a life of Southlake, Prestonwood Baptist, and grandchildren (not that there's anything at all wrong with that). My life has taken a different path of rewarding career, world travel, strong and close circle of friends who are like family, pets who are like children, and a haircut and look that defies my age (not that there's anything wrong with that, either).

Regardless, gay men and women are Americans, Texans, and Fort Worthians, and deserve more than they received from the TABC and FWPD last weekend. For the first time EVER, I am ashamed of my hometown. I anxiously await how the city leadership will respond. I'm proud of and support the citizens and politicians in the city who are speaking out. Last Saturday was Fort Worth's Stonewall... Let it be a watershed that brings about change in hearts and minds and brings this great city into the 21st century...

#44 UncaMikey

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 08:48 PM

QUOTE (Papaw @ Jul 2 2009, 07:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Are homosexuals born that way making it hard or impossible to ever straighten up or do they choose this path at a later time due to their reactions to personal or social pressures?


Assuming you are straight, like me, would you say you were born that way? When you were 5 or 8 or 13, did you feel inner stirrings that just seemed to come out of nowhere? Or did you make a conscious decision to be attracted to the opposite sex, reacting to personal or social pressures?

Like most everything else in this world, human sexuality is very complicated. I don't think there's just two types, or three, or twelve, but rather a whole continuum of feelings and emotions.

What person, straight or gay or bi or transgender or whatever, can control, much less consciously direct, their sexual proclivities? Their actions, perhaps, but their inner desires?

#45 Dismuke

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 11:09 PM

I cannot imagine why anyone would choose a lifestyle which, until fairly recently here in the West, very often meant a life of loneliness, ridicule, social isolation and legal harassment - and which is still punishable by torture and/or death in many parts of the world (such as the Middle East and in Iran where gays are hanged).

But even if it is chosen - why should it matter? If it is a choice (which I don't think it is), a person has every right in the world to make such a choice. It is really nobody else's business - and most certainly not the government's or the police's.
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#46 Templeofheaven

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 11:24 PM

QUOTE (UncaMikey @ Jul 2 2009, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Papaw @ Jul 2 2009, 07:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Are homosexuals born that way making it hard or impossible to ever straighten up or do they choose this path at a later time due to their reactions to personal or social pressures?




I would like to think being gay or straight, is like your preference to food/flavor.

Did you guys realize that Star-Telegram had to shut down the "comments" to reports on this incident? The reason being there were too much disagreements and polarized attitudes. However, on Dallas Morning News, the comments have been open and it seems people there who had commented so far have been more sympathetic and accepting.

#47 Brian Luenser

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 07:04 AM

QUOTE (ramjet @ Jul 2 2009, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Papaw @ Jul 2 2009, 07:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This raid must have stirred up more public interest than I realized. While discussing this with a number of friends and neighbors there were two questions that were brought up that I honestly don't have an answer to.

Since the Broadway Baptist controversy over gay membership and with the location of it and most of these gay bars in the same approximate area, could it be stated that this is a homosexual neighborhood of Fort Worth?

Are homosexuals born that way making it hard or impossible to ever straighten up or do they choose this path at a later time due to their reactions to personal or social pressures?


I think the fact that this bar is close to Broadway Baptist Church is a coincidence. I'd guess most gay Broadway members are the Rivercrest/Westover types. I don't think Fort Worth really has a "gay" neighborhood - say, like Oak Lawn in Dallas. Even the notion of a gay neighborhood is so 1990. Most of world has moved on and gay folks have assimilated into all kinds of neighborhoods across the world. (And we're great for real estate values, by the way. We dig interesting architecture, are willing to take risks in transitional neighborhoods, rehab homes in stylish paint colors and accents, and keep our yards!)

Being one (a gay), I believe it's born in. Comes with formerly blond hair, big feet, and propensity to learn many languages. If not, I think my and my family's close affiliation with the Southern Baptists and all their many edicts would have scared me into a life of Southlake, Prestonwood Baptist, and grandchildren (not that there's anything at all wrong with that). My life has taken a different path of rewarding career, world travel, strong and close circle of friends who are like family, pets who are like children, and a haircut and look that defies my age (not that there's anything wrong with that, either).

Regardless, gay men and women are Americans, Texans, and Fort Worthians, and deserve more than they received from the TABC and FWPD last weekend. For the first time EVER, I am ashamed of my hometown. I anxiously await how the city leadership will respond. I'm proud of and support the citizens and politicians in the city who are speaking out. Last Saturday was Fort Worth's Stonewall... Let it be a watershed that brings about change in hearts and minds and brings this great city into the 21st century...


All very well stated ramjet.

I would like to make these observations. As a way straight guy.

I am a lover of Fort Worth. I am way glad to have any good citizens live in my town. Gay or straight. And I agree that gay neighborhoods are a thing of the past. (to a large extent, though not completely.) But I think an incident like at the Rainbow Bar polarizes the community. I do not know any persons outside of this forum that don't want the homosexual demonstrators to go home or back to work.

I think most people are concerned about their police officers acting properly. I believe the average citizen would be very unhappy to think the police are looking for homosexuals to bash. I don't believe this was the case nor does anybody I know. Of course we don't know nor does anybody but like 3 people what really transpired. Even if the injured party was injured by the police I don't think the average citizen takes that any way but an unfortunate incident. I am never going to get slammed to the ground by the police so I am not concerned for myself. I will never get slammed to the ground by the police because of my respect for the authorities that I pay a lot of money to keep my community safe. I will always act respectfully to the police no matter what. I do not think for a minute that all the people, including the injured party can say they were acting respectful to the police. I speculate that I am not in the minority with this viewpoint.

Now I do not expect you, ramjet, to answer for the entire gay community but I ask you this. Do you not feel that this incident has harmed the gay movement in Fort Worth? I believe it has. Very much so. I believe if the gay community is going to assemble in protest after protest that it should be for a cause greater than a guy in a gay bar getting injured by his head hitting a board while getting questioned/ arrested at 1am? Many people, including on this Forum, will take this incident and use it as an example of the horrible police state that we live in. Guy can't even go to a bar for a beer with some friends without getting his head bashed in. A complete over-reaction I am certain. If the citizens of this city thought that was the case there would be a lot more unhappy demonstrators than we are seeing, believe me.

I think the biggest effect of this incident is not pointing out a pattern of police brutality or gay bashing. I think the biggest effect is to polarize the gay and straight communities. A shame. But I am starting to think that most of the demonstrators I see on the news (non-stop) want the gay and straight communities to be polarized. I don't really know why. I think the average straight guy is sitting on his couch watching the news thinking to himself, "why can't they just blend in with the community rather than stratify themselves so profoundly?"

Now I am standing by for many to quickly point out that today the police are coming after Gay's but watch out, tomorrow they will be coming after fans of architecture or photographers. Crap, of course. I don't believe they are coming after anybody today. I do know the community is tired of this event and wants the city, city hall and the police department to get back to work. This next city council meeting is going to be a zoo. We have got a thousand bigger issues at hand, especially considering the police most involved were not Fort Worth police. It is times like these that make me wonder how they get people to run for City Council. I would call in sick.

And ramjet, don't think for a second that I don't have respect for you or any other Gay Forum people. First, I don't know that I am not only one of four straight Forum members. And I have always enjoyed your posts. I am going to believe that as Forum brothers we have a lot more in common than I do with my straight neighbors. You are my kind of people. Believe that.
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#48 Fort Worthology

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 07:07 AM

QUOTE (Templeofheaven @ Jul 3 2009, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Did you guys realize that Star-Telegram had to shut down the "comments" to reports on this incident? The reason being there were too much disagreements and polarized attitudes. However, on Dallas Morning News, the comments have been open and it seems people there who had commented so far have been more sympathetic and accepting.


One of my rules in life is to NEVER read the Star-Telegram web site comments. They are nearly always extremely closed-minded and hateful.

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#49 Papaw

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 07:37 AM

ramjet and monee -- valid and well stated comments.

#50 jefffwd

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 10:27 AM

wink.gif
QUOTE (Papaw @ Jul 3 2009, 08:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ramjet and monee -- valid and well stated comments.


I second that! Thank you monee for clarifying your stance on the situation. I have to agree with ramjet that you are born gay.

Someone made the comment that the neighbors might not have wanted The Rainbow Lounge to open in the neighborhood... I just wanted to point out that that location for many, many years was a gay country bar called The 651 and it is a couple doors down from The Crossroads Lounge and within walking distance of Stampede (both also gay bars) so I don't think it was the neighbors... Speaking of country gay bars... I've always wondered how they decided who leads when dancing? wink.gif




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