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#1 Brian Luenser

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 07:23 PM

I have been wanting to do side by side comparisons for years. It is more difficult than you would think. Besides matching the time of day, exposure, framing, focal length (that must match, cropping does not equate) the BIG problem? TREES. We used to have bare tree-less streets. Now there are trees everywhere. Not that I am not a big fan of trees (And an even bigger fan of oxygen) but it makes many comparisons almost impossible. In many cases if you stand in the same spot as the original photographer you are now staring straight at a tree. So I may have to cheat here and there.

Here is my first attempt. I hope to get better at this. (Please do try this yourselves) This is a scan of one of my thousand or so post cards I have collected of old Fort Worth. This is a scan of West 7th street around Main Street. Trees in the way of course. you will notice there is no Palace Theater. (Welcome the Carter Burgess Building where the Aviation Building used to be.) Many other differences, like the Barnett building appearing in the distance. I think that bank is Dell Frisco's Steak House.

Oh Ya, the 1966, 67 cars are replaced by a Japanese hybrid. (Standing by for my Chevy Volt. A real electric) Movie at the Palace? Wild in the Streets. Wild.



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#2 mbdalton1

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 08:51 PM

Wait, that's the Palace Theatre, right??

I believe the Majestic Theatre used to stand where the A/C mechanical building for the Convention Center is today.

Very nifty comparison, by the way!!

smile.gif mb

#3 Brian Luenser

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 09:06 PM

QUOTE (mbdalton1 @ Oct 11 2008, 09:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wait, that's the Palace Theatre, right??

I believe the Majestic Theatre used to stand where the A/C mechanical building for the Convention Center is today.

Very nifty comparison, by the way!!

smile.gif mb



Wow. I spent an hour with that old post card today and I still called the Palace the Majestic. Therein lies the reason I am not a detective. Really.

BTW I went in and edited my post so if people then read your post and think you had it wrong they should know that! I probably shouldn't do that but I can't help it.
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#4 Brian Luenser

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 02:37 PM

OK, here's our next victim. 1945 City Hall and Carnegie Library. (South Throckmorton St. looking North.) Took this shot Saturday evening. (Yesterday) Fun comparison here. This card had been posted previously without the comparison shot. It is too bad that the huge Carter Burgess building blended so perfectly with the sky for this shot. I may do it again another time.

I think I got the card shot pretty good. Let's take a look, shall we?


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#5 cbellomy

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 03:16 PM

monee, in the first pair, the FWNB motor bank is now Ruth's Chris. Prior to that, it was the Crystal Cactus restaurant and bar. The upper floor is ballroom space for the Hilton. When the first photo was taken, I don't know if Hotel Texas was using the 2nd floor space there or not.


#6 John T Roberts

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 07:27 PM

The hotel has always used the 2nd floor space as a ballroom since the FWNB Motor Bank was constructed. I believe John F. Kennedy spoke to a breakfast meeting in the ballroom the day he was assassinated.

#7 EwingFTW

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 01:34 PM

QUOTE (John T Roberts @ Oct 12 2008, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The hotel has always used the 2nd floor space as a ballroom since the FWNB Motor Bank was constructed. I believe John F. Kennedy spoke to a breakfast meeting in the ballroom the day he was assassinated.


President Kennedy did speak in that ballroom. I was there.

#8 Brian Luenser

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 07:42 PM

OK. Next victims. Houston Street looking South. (toward the Flat Iron building)

At first glance you may think I blew it with getting my location correct. I didn't. (now put your GPS enabled laser measuring device away, I mean close enough.) It is mostly that problem with the trees I talked about in a post above.





Now here is another shot where I cheated and moved to the right several feet to look around some pretty big trees. May actually be a better comparison even if not in the exact location.


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#9 John T Roberts

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 09:05 PM

Monee, this is a better comparison because you can actually see the buildings on the street. The AT&T Building has been expanded 5 additional floors, the Park Central motel has been remodeled, the Flatiron looks the same, and Houston Place had the porcelain panels removed with the facade restored. Also, I think the date on the 1960's post card is incorrect. I see the Convention Center and it's old marquee along with the Park Central Inn. Those buildings opened in 1968.

#10 cbellomy

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 09:14 PM

It's interesting to me how, at some unconscious level, the city looks more urban and bustling without trees. Maybe the additional traffic in the postcard adds to the effect, but somehow the trees make the setting look serene instead of on the go.


#11 Brian Luenser

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 09:53 PM

QUOTE (John T Roberts @ Oct 21 2008, 10:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Monee, this is a better comparison because you can actually see the buildings on the street. The AT&T Building has been expanded 5 additional floors, the Park Central motel has been remodeled, the Flatiron looks the same, and Houston Place had the porcelain panels removed with the facade restored. Also, I think the date on the 1960's post card is incorrect. I see the Convention Center and it's old marquee along with the Park Central Inn. Those buildings opened in 1968.



Sure enough. You caught me on the date... Without knowing the information you provided about facts of the buildings and their time-line, another check of the picture pointed to later model cars. I know my cars very well. (Much better than I know my buildings for sure) and I quickly spotted a 1963 Chevy and worse yet, a 1967 Chevy!

I just guessed at the 1960 based on the 1950's cars I see. I do think that back then, a greater percentage of cars may have been 10 years old.
And funny, I did not know the At&T building had 5 floors added to it. It makes me laugh when I think about taking the pic and thinking, "no, I'm still too close" based on the relationship between that building and the Flatiron Building. Never occurred to me that the buildings that I was fairly familiar with had changed that much. Don't remember ever hearing that before... and to think that it is one of the few buildings that would have looked better had they removed 5 floors. Or more.
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#12 Brian Luenser

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 10:09 PM

QUOTE (cbellomy @ Oct 21 2008, 10:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's interesting to me how, at some unconscious level, the city looks more urban and bustling without trees. Maybe the additional traffic in the postcard adds to the effect, but somehow the trees make the setting look serene instead of on the go.



I'm glad you brought that up. I have similar thoughts on the tree scene Downtown. I am and have always been a big tree fan, but Downtown Downtown may be another matter. The old pictures of the City absolutely do look more urban and city-like. I know of many streets where the trees are really covering up some fantastic buildings. I have wondered if they either need to be cut down or trimmed like crazy. And I really do love trees. In fact, I just planted 2 live Oaks at my business. (They really look great and necessary but have a lot of space, not taking over a sidewalk.)

The trick may be trees that stay in the teenager stage... kind of small. At least the sidewalk trees in front of buildings. Maybe we could bind their roots like they used to bind Chinese girl's feet. Another side benefit would surely be less of a bird problem. A huge problem. Save those huge trees for the parks etc...

In fact, I am going to do some comparison pics with old pics where it is really obvious that the trees have become too much of the City look. Stand-by...
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#13 Fort Worthology

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 07:38 AM

Trees serve a purpose in at least one regard - since we've removed a lot of on-street parking from some of these streets in favor of more travel lanes (the merits of which decision would be another topic, I suppose), the street trees arrayed in an orderly line against the edge of the sidewalk serve as a barrier between pedestrians and cars, a barrier that would previously have been parked cars.

A good example of what happens when you remove the parking, convert the street to a traffic sewer, and *don't* install street trees is 7th Street from Burnett Park through the heart of downtown. It's noticeably less pleasant to walk it with four lanes of (often speeding) cars barreling past with no barrier of any sort. (It's doubly worse because 7th has been made one-way, which combined with the lack of barriers along the sidewalk further encourages speeding.)

And there's a general feeling that we have to "green up" everything in this country. Trees covering the streets of downtown is one example (another being the ridiculous berms and juniper shrub "nature band-aids" that try to disguise your typical suburban big-box store's depressing-ness). A great space doesn't require greening - the plaza in front of the Pantheon in Rome, for example, has few (or no) green things in it at all, but it's a fantastic space nonetheless. The architecture does the job of being wonderful.

Of course, when you introduce four lanes of cars a la, say, Houston Street, with no street parking, the trees are worthwhile in terms of physical and psychological separation between pedestrians and cars.

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#14 Big Frog II

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 08:08 AM

I think the trees are a big plus to downtown. They soften the buildings. They provide shade for the sidewalks. Finally they shade parts of the street thereby lowering the temperature of the asphalt. I think we would make a lot more of our streets pedestrian friendly by adding trees. They keep the temperatures down encouraging walking. I was very fortunate to have grown up on Martel.(One block west of Oakland). Some of my fondest memories was walking or riding my bike to friends houses on the sidewalks under thr Pecan trees. Those sidewalks and trees encouraged people to walk or ride their bikes because it was safe and always much, much cooler. It is a shame that there are so few streets with this kind of set up any more. I think the more trees we can plant and the more pedestrian friendly sidewalks there are the more we will encourage people to get outside and use them. Planting trees along the streets will also go a long way in reducing the urban heat island problem that gets worse by the year.

Finally, thanks Atomic Glee for these great pictures. They bring back a lot of great memories.

#15 cbellomy

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 07:00 PM

Yeah, to be clear my comment was merely about how my perception is altered by the presence of trees. As much as I like the hustling urban look, I know in my mind that trees are a huge net plus for human habitation. They may need better pruning and management, but the shade and fresh air they generate are absolute goods.


#16 Brian Luenser

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 08:53 PM

My next set to compare. Houston Street. Looking South from Third. 1917. Interesting but less satisfying as so much has changed I might as well have compared to another city. It turns out this game is more fun when most of the buildings remain. But there is still a shot from the same coordinates on this planet, just a different time. I would not have even known I was in the right spot except for one landmark. In the 1917 photo, you can just barely see the top of the Burk Burnett Building. (Same spot in new pic, but not visible from the exact spot. ) Same change has indeed occurred in this spot.
Let's take a look, shall we?

Picture pulled temporarily while I re-do.
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#17 Phil Phillips

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 12:29 PM

Here are some comparisons I took last year. Need to update the Lancaster ones since the street is now complete. Old photos are off the web, TDOT and who knows where. Several may be part of the Jack White Collection at UTA and/or from the fortwortharchitecture.com site.
Posted Image
280 Spur going west into downtown - 1963
Posted Image
2008 - New photo that better replicates the angle.

I'll see how these show up before posting others since I'm not sure how to post photos.

#18 Phil Phillips

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 12:44 PM

Posted Image
Looking south on Hemphill just north of Magnolia 1930s
Posted Image
2007

#19 Phil Phillips

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 12:50 PM

Posted Image
Looking north on I35 from Berry St. bridge - 1958
Posted Image
2007
You can no longer see the houses on the right top, but they are still present.

#20 Phil Phillips

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 12:53 PM

Posted Image
Post Office 1930s
Posted Image
2007

#21 Brian Luenser

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 01:22 PM



Wow! Amazing job Mr. Phillips! I've been photographically humiliated. (And putting the new ones in B&W is just a plain unconscionable advantage...) I may be too embarrassed to continue. Cripes.
I wonder where those great old photo's came from? Your really nailed the angles and focal lengths etc...
I hope your shots can go beyond this Forum. Many of those business owners would love such comparisons.

I am surprised how incredibly little the Post Office has changed. By my eyeballs, the only difference is that the wind shifted the flag from North to South. (And now I'm surprised you didn't Photoshop the flag to come from the same direction... pretty sloppy on your part!) Really, seeing what has not changed is at least as fun as seeing what has.

I should give up now on doing more of these comparisons now that you have set the bar too high, but I must continue... and when I copy your techniques, be polite and don't notice.

A+ Do some more!
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#22 Phil Phillips

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 01:52 PM

Actually, I think you did an excellant job on yours and hope you keep them coming. The only reason I did the new in B&W is because the old were in B&W.

#23 cbellomy

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 04:59 PM

monee, one reason your latest comparison shot doesn't work is because you shot it from Throckmorton Street, not Houston. cool.gif

#24 Brian Luenser

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 05:36 PM

QUOTE (cbellomy @ Oct 24 2008, 05:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
monee, one reason your latest comparison shot doesn't work is because you shot it from Throckmorton Street, not Houston. cool.gif


Does anybody know if Trinity Terrace is a decent retirement home? blush.gif

Now my only question is, are you the first person to discover this? Or have other Forum Members noticed and let me wallow in my shame?

That comparison has been driving me nuts. Just didn't get it. As my comparison photo was so old, I just figured EVERYTHING changed.

And to try to garner an understanding for my complete laps of geographical adaptivity, I am driven nuts by this... I live in the Tower. 500 Throckmorton St. But the only resident entrance is on Taylor Street. So I figure the block to the East is Houston street. In fact there is no entrance to the Tower on Throckmorton St. except for a restaurant.

BTW, I took my original comparison pic down to avoid unnecessary confusion. And stand-by for a good comparison replacement.

Anyway, if you see me wandering aimlessly Downtown this evening please point me to my home or call my wife, whom has her phone number pinned to my bib...

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#25 cbellomy

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 09:57 PM

Well, to be fair, I'm not sure Houston is going to be that much more recognizable, at least not in the foreground...


#26 cajunmike

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 07:38 PM

Thanks to all of you who post the before and after photos. I love to see the past history.
Mike

#27 RD Milhollin

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Posted 26 October 2008 - 12:11 PM

I am really enjoying this thread. Maybe the photographers engaged in this exercise would consider putting on a forum-sponsored exhibition in conjunction with Historic Fort Worth at the Community Arts Center or the Central Library. This reminds me of what a friend did a few years back. He is an accomplished photographer and able researcher and has lived in DC for many years. He spent about three or four years researching the Library of Congress and private collections for suitable old historic and significant photos of the city and then went out and using photogrammetric methods set up the same shot using modern equipment. The result was a book he had published entitled "Washington DC, Past and Present". Here is a link to the Amazon source for the book:

http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/0962984116

I thought that Pete came up with a pretty smart idea, as the subject matter of the book appeals to to serious tourists and Washington has more than it's share of these every year. Looks like a pretty good way to set up a retirement income stream (better than 401-k's at this point in time I would venture).

#28 Phil Phillips

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 01:47 PM

Posted Image
Looking north on Jones at 16th - probably 1920s
Posted Image
2008

#29 Phil Phillips

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:02 PM

Posted Image
I don' know the date, but you can see the northern Bass tower under construction. I don't remember if the southern tower was also underconstruction and we just can't see it yet or if it came later.
Posted Image
2008. Now we can clearly see the southern tower and just a piece of the northern tower, since the addition to the base of the old Ft. Worth Natn Bldg (now The Towers) obstructs the view. Large shadow of a building across the street in foreground of older photo is now missing because the building has been torn down and is now a parking lot.

#30 360texas

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 03:31 PM

Phil, good work. !
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#31 DTCB

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Posted 28 October 2008 - 04:38 PM

Great Job ELwood!
Those are great pics, you have been holding out on us.
Keep them coming. You really do capture that feeling of being there.

D

#32 Phil Phillips

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 11:21 AM

Posted Image
Looking east on the West Freeway - 1958

Posted Image
2008. When the freeway was widened, there were new bridges, changes in grade, etc. that makes a decent comparison photo unobtainable. Comment has been made about the increase in trees downtown and that is also apparent in this area of FW.

#33 Phil Phillips

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 12:25 PM

Posted Image
Fire Station #5, 500 block of Bryan Ave - unknown date

Posted Image
2008

#34 Owen

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 02:24 PM

The shots on the I-30 are of great interest to me, since that was my old stomping ground when I was a kid. The major landmark is Arlington Heights HS, and it appears not only did they lose most of their front lawn, they've added some building just west of the main building. And yes, there are many more trees in that area now than when I last visited the area.

#35 cajunmike

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 03:24 PM

In the 1958 photo of the west freeway, was the Channel 11 & KFJZ studio along the south acess road at that time?
Mike

#36 Phil Phillips

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 03:52 PM

Yes, that is the KFJZ building on the right access road.

#37 JBB

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 11:21 AM

QUOTE (Owen @ Oct 29 2008, 03:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The major landmark is Arlington Heights HS, and it appears not only did they lose most of their front lawn, they've added some building just west of the main building.


I think that's the Chapel Hill shopping center on the west side of Hulen that you're seeing in the present day shot.

#38 Phil Phillips

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 01:29 PM

Yes, here is a zoom and crop that shows the "dome" of the NE corner of that shopping center and part of the sign.

Posted Image

#39 Phil Phillips

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 01:32 PM

Posted Image
Looking S on Main at Kress Bldg - 1936

Posted Image
2008. Damn trees!

#40 360texas

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 03:19 PM

LOLOLLL... now remember Trees are your friends

It appears in your imaging.. there far more number of cars in the older photo.

I wonder what the air polutions ratings were back then.
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#41 Brian Luenser

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 03:55 PM

QUOTE (360texas @ Oct 30 2008, 04:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LOLOLLL... now remember Trees are your friends

It appears in your imaging.. there far more number of cars in the older photo.

I wonder what the air polutions ratings were back then.


Each one of those cars polluted about 20 times more than a modern car. So let's see, 20 times the cars times 20 times the pollution. (Crap, what did I do with my calculator.)

LOTS of pollution. I am always amazed at the old pictures where you can't see a few blocks down.
Add to that lead and other heavy metals pouring from the smokestacks... No wonder they died young.

Now to the Master, Phil Phillips. Surely he does this exact thing for a living. Can't be trial and error. (my way) Talk about nailing it! Just amazingly good comparisons. He must be using the exact same camera etc... I am wanting to do some more comparisons myself but it is like someone saying, "Here is a football. Go out in the field and throw few passes back and forth to Tony Romo." Yikes...

I not only didn't nail it, but I was even on the wrong street in my last attempt! newlaugh.gif


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#42 Phil Phillips

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 04:08 PM

What struck me while planning the shot of the Kress was how much wider Main St. was back then. Parking on both sides of the street, with a lane of traffic each way plus two sets of tracks in the middle.

Thanks for the kind comments, monee. I think I am going to wait until the leaves are off the trees to do shots like this again. I am far from a pro. Trial and error and a few tricks I picked up.

#43 BillyG

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Posted 01 November 2008 - 07:20 AM

QUOTE (Phil Phillips @ Oct 29 2008, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, that is the KFJZ building on the right access road.


I remember going in there when I was on Romper Room with Miss Mary Lynn.

#44 Phil Phillips

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 09:29 AM

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Skyline from the Oakwood Cemetary - 1970s

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2008. Must retake this when trees are bare, as was original. Maybe the drilling rig will be gone by then.

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A better view of the skyline, closer to river and further east than original.

#45 Brian Luenser

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 11:42 AM

If this guy, Phil, was any photographer at all, he would have started out defoliating those trees for a good comp pic.

(This guy is the stinking master of perspective.) He is going to have to post 20 stinkers in a row before I even get back in the water.
I am ready for him to come clean. He has got to be A. A professional Photographer, B. Independently wealthy with too much time on his hands, C. Getting help from the photographic society, The Fort Worth Historical Society, the FBI photo lab and the State Fair Pie contest judging panel.
www.fortworthview.com

#46 longhornz32

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 01:10 PM

Is that a huge digital clock?

#47 Phil Phillips

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 05:00 PM

There was a revolving clock on top of the CNB building.

Actually, monee, the next piece of photo equipment I buy may be a chain saw.

#48 Recyclican

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Posted 08 November 2008 - 05:00 PM

QUOTE (longhornz32 @ Nov 8 2008, 01:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is that a huge digital clock?


Indeed it was:


The infamous tornado of 2000 damaged, and it was removed from the building (which also, as of 2006, no longer stands). From this page: http://www.fortworth...om/landmark.htm

#49 Phil Phillips

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 02:52 PM

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Montgomery Ward 1933

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2008

#50 Phil Phillips

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 01:31 PM

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7th St. looking east - 1930s

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2008




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