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Cultural District Roundabout


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#1 mosteijn

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Posted 15 August 2004 - 02:26 PM

I was looking at the old forum and came accross the Roundabout thread. I read it, and it just kind of ended, with no further discussion of the topic. What happened to the project? Did it get cancelled indefinately, or is there still some slimmer of hope it might happen? I would really like to see it happen, as I understand many of you would too.

Oh yeah, and who was this Anne Marion person who was proposing the thing in the first place?

#2 Doug

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Posted 15 August 2004 - 02:44 PM

Here's a little info on Anne:
http://www.forbes.co...datatype=Person

#3 JBB

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Posted 15 August 2004 - 03:11 PM

I think this fell apart when the private donations were withdrawn.

On an unrelated note, has anyone seen or heard of the new roundabout in Southlake? It's at the intersection of Carroll Ave. and Continental on the eastern edge of Timmeron Country Club. It was the 4-way stop from hell before and they're using the roundabout to improve traffic flow. It is very small and very low speed. I've only driven through it at lower traffic times, so I haven't seen it at full use. Very interesting that they would use this as opposed to a traffic signal.

#4 Willy1

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Posted 15 August 2004 - 10:16 PM

Yep, one of FW's finest contributors was going to pretty much pay for the entire thing, from what I understand. She was going to pay like $26 million for the intersection to be transformed into a round-a-bout and new "gateway" to the cultural district and camp bowie. But, when the economy went south after 9-11 she withdrew her plans because of the downward turn in the economy. I read something about all this in the No-named Startlegram.

#5 Doug

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Posted 15 August 2004 - 11:21 PM

From a S-T article from June of 2002:
It follows a ruling last month by the city's Historic and Cultural Landmarks Commission that the theater could not be torn down for 180 days, until Oct. 14.

The bulk of the suggestions Thursday were tied to whether a roundabout, a low-speed version of a traffic circle, would be built at the six-point intersection near the theater.

Last year, local philanthropist Anne W. Marion offered up to $25 million to build a roundabout to serve as a new gateway into the Cultural District. Marion spearheaded establishment of the FPA Foundation to oversee the project.

After months of studies, however, Marion cited tough economic times and withdrew her planned donation - less than a day before the City Council was to pick a design.

City officials have continued to study the idea, however, with the hope of getting public or private funding to build it.

And here's another link to the design:
http://www.fortworth.../cp20010806.asp

#6 mosteijn

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 04:22 PM

Interesting, however I HATE the design they have on their website. Looks way too suburban. They need to have the streets continue their courses (except perhaps University) and none of those excess medians. I'm thinking this roundabout should be likened to Place de la Bastille in Paris or Dupont Circle in D.C.

I really hope someone can put forth some funding for this. Perhaps the Basses are getting bored with Sundance? ;)

#7 RD Milhollin

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 07:34 PM

My experience with traffic circles or "roundabouts" is that the diameter needs to be fairly large with room for merging traffic between the intersecting streets for the thing to work well. I suppose I should say that this seems to work for circular intersections on larger, high volume arterials, since small roundabouts apparently work well on small secondary streets. All traffic entering the intersection needs to yield to that already circling around, and vehicle speed needs to be severely moderated once in the flow. I used to live in Hollywood Florida and one of the major circles there on Hollywood Blvd. had the city hall in the middle, and the older, larger one where H'Wood meets US 1 has an outdoor concert pavillion that hosts an annual jazz festival. The Benbrook circle in Fort Worth is scary, perhaps because of the high-speed traffic entering southbound from 183 Alta Mere, and the need for traffic in the circle to pause or stop and wait for an opening to continue around. Bluebonnet Circle works well, as long as the high school kids and drunks can slow adequately to make the turn when entering the intersection.

The plans I have seen of the once-proposed intersection at 6-Points seems too small to be effective, if safe.

Pup

#8 jubjubking

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 07:44 PM

Nothing wrong with a roundabout. I was in london last year and it seems the city is full of them. It needs to be something not only thats safe, but eyecatching as well. Maybe a nice monument or statue or fountain in the middle covered in greenspace for people to enjoy it

#9 John T Roberts

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 07:49 PM

I believe that a fountain was proposed for the center of this one as part of the Gateway into the Cultural District.

#10 mosteijn

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 07:55 PM

I would personally like to see a pillar with a statue on top (which is why I mentioned Place de la Bastille). Amon Carter doesn't have a big enough monument to himself in this city which he's done so much for, so that's who I'd nominate to be on top of the pillar. Perhaps a fountain could be incorporated at the bottom? And of course some grass, to incorporate an important element in Dupont Circle.

#11 jubjubking

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 08:06 PM

How about Will Rogers, in his cowboy duds with a lasso loop, roping out to the west. That, or maybe Sally Rand, famous cowgirl exhibitionist in a hat and revealing outfit??? ;)

I was joking on the last ones guys. I think either carter or rogers would be great for this monument.

#12 normanfd

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 12:09 AM

I agree with Preirie Pup that the design looks way too compact to deal with the enormous traffic at that intersection.

However, besides the roundabouts described in London and Paris above, Mexico City's Avenida de la Reforma also offers axamples of beautiful roundabouts.

#13 redhead

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 03:00 PM

I think the subject is moot. And I really don't think Ms. Marion's withdrawal of the offer had to do with the economic climate, but rather the political one at that time.

#14 RD Milhollin

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 04:02 PM

With the 7th Street Theater out of the way there may be room for a proper roundabout, with or without statue and fountain. We may need to find another patron to pick up the tab though. As regards the Paseo de la Reforma, I would not class the circles there as true roundabouts, the circular intersections are more like "wide spots in the road" where left turns are permitted, with room for monumental monuments in the middle. The traffic going from to or from Chapultapec does not yield to side traffic if I remember correctly.

Regardless, there is potential for a couple of impressive, though probably not "monumental", streets in Fort Worth. 7th Street was once and probably could be again a principal thoroughfare, the circle/fountain/statue/gateway to the Museums would be nice but not essentail. I am just as stoked about the potential for Lancaster downtown, I hope the city planning does not drop the ball on this one and allow a Wall-Mart to be build on the site of the T&P Warehouse.

Pup

#15 mosteijn

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 04:14 PM

I am just as stoked about the potential for Lancaster downtow, I hope the city planning does not drop the ball on this one and allow a Wall-Mart to be build on the site of the T&P Warehouse.

I know! If those morons let that happen again, I will raise hell to them personally. I don't care if they wouldn't trust the judgement of a teenager, but I'm pretty sure it would be a nasty blow to their egos to have a kid lecture the people SUPPOSED TO BE IN CHARGE about what true urbanity is... :smwink:

And thanks normanfd for mentioning Paseo de la Reforma. I was trying to think what that street with the monument was called because that's something I would also like to see happen at this intersection. As to it being too small, I think (at least in my opinion) it needs to be small. If it was controlled by lights anyways, it wouldn't need to be bigger than the one that's already there, 4-6 lanes should be enough. It would seem more urban if it was smaller, and that's what I think should be one of the main reasons behind building it, along with easing traffic. The monument in the center would seem more important if the road around it had a smaller diameter, too.

#16 ghughes

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 08:15 PM

I don't know if the intersection in question is a good place for a roundabout, but if they are done right they work quite well.

The first rule should be that those in the circle have the right-of-way over those entering. Period, end of story. Anything else causes too much confusion (Weatherford and Bluebonnet both being examples of letting traffic engineers into the room at the wrong time).

Second rule: signs before you enter should show the sequence of exits. That's how it's done in France and it really helps.

For Example (using local highways)
Posted Image

You just read the sign in advance, count the number of exits, and then when in the circle just know to get off at the 2nd one or whatever.

#17 John T Roberts

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 04:11 PM

That is a good idea. Maybe, we shouldn't let the traffic engineers in the room at all?

#18 Buck

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 05:14 PM

ghughes, you just mapped the long-gone Weatherford Traffic Circle at Alta Mere (183) and what is now Camp Bowie West.

not to be confused with the Benbrook Traffic Circle, which is often mistakenly called the Weatherford Traffic Circle.

#19 Call me Arch Stanton

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 05:19 PM

While I know that most of you speak in jest, it has been my experience that traffic engineers, much like weathermen, endure much more criticism than they deserve.

#20 mosteijn

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 10:25 PM

For Example (using local highways)
Posted Image

You just read the sign in advance, count the number of exits, and then when in the circle just know to get off at the 2nd one or whatever.

That's exactly how they are in Argentina, too. But, they're only used at important intersections or intersections of highways. The streets that intersect here, while being major thoroughfares, aren't really THAT crowded or carry THAT much volume to warrant anything like the Benbrook circle. If there were lights so that only one street's traffic is on the circle at a time, it wouldn't need to be big at all.

I think the main focus should be on making the intersection dynamic and attractive, while at the same time adding a (not very big) step in traffic congestion control. We have a tremendous opportunity here, and I hope the city (should they someday choose to persue the roundabout idea) doesn't screw this urban space up like they've done or let happen on so many other occasions.

#21 JBB

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 10:51 PM

The streets that intersect here, while being major thoroughfares, aren't really THAT crowded or carry THAT much volume to warrant anything like the Benbrook circle.

You probably haven't spent much time driving through there at rush hour, during lunch time, or especially during the Stock Show. I've waited through multiple lights at that intersection on more than one occasion.

#22 mosteijn

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 11:25 PM

The streets that intersect here, while being major thoroughfares, aren't really THAT crowded or carry THAT much volume to warrant anything like the Benbrook circle.

You probably haven't spent much time driving through there at rush hour, during lunch time, or especially during the Stock Show. I've waited through multiple lights at that intersection on more than one occasion.

Well, I have been a few times during rush hour, but it really didn't seem that bad. Still, a big traffic circle is not the answer for the intersection. If it's going to be controlled by lights, the circle can be as big or as small as you want it, diameter wise. In this case, given the supposedly urban setting, a small(er) circle would probably work the best. Maybe 6 lanes?

#23 RD Milhollin

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Posted 22 August 2004 - 09:42 AM

As regards the waiting time at the "six-points" intersection:

At one time it was widely acknowledged that that was the longest wait for traffic signals of any intersection in town, hands down. Has that changed in the past few years? Is there another intersection that takes longer to get through if you arrive at the end of a yellow light?

Back in the late 70's or early 80's there was a billboard sign at the slice of land between Bailey and University facing oncoming traffic going north on University. Since it was set back from the intersection it could be seen from most of the positions where traffic had to stop. It was print only, no graphic that I remember, and the text read something like this:

"Well, here you are at the longest intersection in town. You are going to be here several minutes so you might as well read this" ...

This was of course before cell phones, PDA's, notebook computers, and portable DVD players, but I have seen men using electric shavers and women putting on their makeup there, plenty of time you see.

Grrrrr
Pup

#24 kenkuhl

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 07:25 AM

Another thing to do while you're waiting at this intersection is fiddle with your stopwatch. I go through it at least twice a day. The average time for a full cycle is 3.5 minutes.

If you're one of those that would rather take longer using a shortcut than just sitting there, there are some alternate routes on the north side of 7th, but as University gets busier it gets harder and harder to get across.

Another long wait is nearby at the Camp Bowie-Montgomery-Lancaster intersection.

#25 Willy1

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 03:49 PM

At one time it was widely acknowledged that that was the longest wait for traffic signals of any intersection in town, hands down. Has that changed in the past few years?

Nothing has changed except the tornado wiped out a few of the billboards near teh internsection. In fact, there are still bent steel beams from one of the old billboards between the intersection and the self-wash car wash off of Univ or Bailey. I think it would be cool to use those beams in a prominant way to remind us of May 26th, 2000. That tornado really had an impact on the neighborhood. More specifically, it had a $20,000 impact on my house!

I like the idea of a roundabout replacing that intersection b/c it's only a few blocks from me and I do anything to avoid it! Jonny - not to belittle your age - but once you actually start driving yourself around town, you will learn to hate this intersection like the rest of us. It is ridiculous how long it takes to get through the cycle! And, I believe, it is still considered the longest traffic signal wait in the city. And, congestion at that intersection is already horrible. But with downtown booming and the cultural district's appeal it will only get worse!

If we're voting on who to put in the center of the fountain I'd like to nominate another of FW's finest. John Denver. (JUST KIDDING) Can you imagine having John Denver welcoming everyone to the cultural district? Maybe the fountain could play "Thank God I'm a Country Boy" too! I always thought it was funny that one of his biggest hits was a song about being from the country when he went to Arlington Heights and grew up on the West Side of FW. I guess we could also nominate Bill Paxton... Hey, maybe it could be a statue of Bill Paxton with the Tornado of 2000. How's that for irony!

#26 mosteijn

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 04:12 PM

At one time it was widely acknowledged that that was the longest wait for traffic signals of any intersection in town, hands down. Has that changed in the past few years?

And, I believe, it is still considered the longest traffic signal wait in the city.

No, actually the light at 820 (eastbound) and Hulen is the longest. I think it was something like in the top 6 for waits at signals in the entire metroplex.

Jonny - not to belittle your age - but once you actually start driving yourself around town, you will learn to hate this intersection like the rest of us.

Lol, it's ok, but I should be in driver's ed by now, darn it! My parents are being cheap, and I only have about 2 more months for me to take the test and get my permit in time to get my license by my birthday...it's so frustrating! :blink:

#27 Willy1

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 04:51 PM

LOL - How could I have forgotten the nightmare that is Hulen and 20. I can't believe Bryant Irvin isn't on the list somewhere!

I remember waiting for my birthday so I could get my license... and my bday ended up falling on good friday and the dvm was closed so I had to wait. It sucked! Anyway, you should get your permit so you can start enjoying the joys of FW's growing traffic problems like the rest of us. And, don't be like me... I crashed my car 2 weeks after I got my license - I think it's some sort of record. And, to make matters worse, I TKO'd my dad's business partner's brick mailbox in Ridglea CC Estates in the process of doing $3800 damage to my car (not to mention the $1500 mailbox)! And, to make it even worse - dad's partner's daughter was one of the prettiest girls at my school and she saw the entire thing (I was being a bad teen driver and speeding in the rain). But, she was really great and took up for me and told my parents it wasn't my fault. ;-) To my credit, everyone does crash there - the mailman, ups, etc. In fact the mail truck crashed in their yard twice in one day! Anyway - be safe when you get your license!!!!! I was dumb!

#28 mosteijn

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Posted 31 August 2004 - 04:57 PM

Wow, that sucks about the mailbox! I don't think I'll have anything to worry about when it comes to driving safely since I'm totally freaked out by the conecpt of ME driving, so I'll probably end up driving slower/safer than those blue-haired old ladies in their cadillacs, lol.

But back on topic (somewhat), I remember a news report about Bryant Irvin and Hulen, and how they had the most traffic volume of any arterials in Fort Worth or the metroplex or something, but that could have changed.

#29 mosteijn

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Posted 12 September 2004 - 02:51 PM

I was at the intersection on Friday, and I guess I can see how bad it is. But, there really is no way around the long wait at the lights unless it was made a true traffic circle which didn't have lights at all, although such a design probably wouldn't work well at that intersection. That's how most of them are in Europe, though.

Here's one being built in Houston that caught me eye, it's what I would like to see the 6 points intersection become, only on a larger scale and controlled by lights:

Posted Image

#30 Thurman52

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 01:36 PM

So running a few errands this afternoon, I noticed the horrid strip shopping center at the intersection is getting a facelift. Temp Banner Signs are in place and the red brick appears to be getting a fresh white paint.

Hopefully, they will do some landscaping along the intersection and rid us of that extremely tall sign.

#31 John T Roberts

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 01:41 PM

I was by there the other day and noticed the signs removed and the banners in place, but I didn't see the brick being painted. I dislike painted brick.

#32 trafficnerd

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Posted 21 December 2005 - 06:01 PM

QUOTE(JBB @ Aug 15 2004, 03:11 PM) View Post

On an unrelated note, has anyone seen or heard of the new roundabout in Southlake? It's at the intersection of Carroll Ave. and Continental on the eastern edge of Timmeron Country Club. It was the 4-way stop from hell before and they're using the roundabout to improve traffic flow. It is very small and very low speed. I've only driven through it at lower traffic times, so I haven't seen it at full use. Very interesting that they would use this as opposed to a traffic signal.


Sorry to bring such an old thread back to life, but.... The intersection of Carroll and Continental met signal warrants but the City did not want to get into the signal business. Currently every signal in Southlake is on a state route and maintained by TxDOT. A signal at the old intersection would have cost between 85-110k. The roundabout cost $121k, but has lower maintenance costs over the long term, is a far safer intersection, and has lower off peak delay than a signal, so they gave it a shot.

#33 hooked

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 03:15 PM

I've always believed that traffic circles would work better at many intersections than lights, but perhaps because we don't have many of them, people here aren't comfortable at this type intersection. I just got back from Freeport, in the Bahamas, where traffic circles are used much more frequently than lights, and they seem to work very well; the traffic is constantly in motion. I did have a bit of a problem driving on the left at first, and circling the roundabouts clockwise was really wierd.

#34 redhead

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 04:41 PM

Signalized roundabouts work really well in DC. I don't know why every other city seems scared of them...but I would not be bold enough to tackle one as busy as they are in DC going in the wrong direction. Yikes!

#35 Russ Graham

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 01:04 PM

Ten years later, we're still talking about this! 



#36 Austin55

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 01:47 PM

Here's the recent ST article Jeriat spoke about

 

Nkk6AVd.jpg

 

http://www.star-tele...le12348470.html



#37 Jeriat

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 01:58 PM

Here's the recent ST article Jeriat spoke about
 
Nkk6AVd.jpg
 
http://www.star-tele...le12348470.html


There it is.

Had no idea how long people were on this.

7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#38 John T Roberts

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 03:13 PM

It's been a long time, and I want to thank JBB for correcting my faulty memory.  I thought it was earlier than 2004, but that was the date on this generation of the forum, so I couldn't remember if I had copied some of the older posts over here. 



#39 renamerusk

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 11:22 PM

It's been a long time, and I want to thank JBB for correcting my faulty memory.  I thought it was earlier than 2004.....

 

JTR, I too thought it was earlier than 2004 recalling news of Fort Worth Philanthropist Ann Marion proposing to construct a  roundabout at the confluence of 7th/Camp Bowie/Bailey/University and the subsequent decision not to go forward.  So it was as your memory suggests first, the Event of 9-11; and second, the immediate downturn in the economy resulting from that tragedy atrocity.

(footnotes--post #4/5)

 

I remember how disappointing the news of the decision not to go forward was to hear and holding out hope that the project might be constructed in the future.  Seems like TXDOT was not too interested in a roundabout and gave us what we have today.

 

http://www.bizjourna...4.html?page=all

 

http://en.wikipedia....Windfohr_Marion



#40 elpingüino

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 06:47 AM

Here's a document from 2001 with the roundabout proposal: http://fortworthtexa...utions/2752.pdf

 

If I understand the schematic correctly, it looks like the streets would have to be significantly realigned to approach the intersection from the correct angle. That would have been more feasible 14 years ago, but today it would mean tearing down new buildings.



#41 John T Roberts

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 07:03 AM

Yes, the streets were realigned.  You are also correct in your statement that all of the new buildings would have to be demolished.  From the looks of this diagram and reality, I guess we will have to live with a signalized intersection.



#42 Jeriat

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 07:38 AM

Another missed opportunity...

Oh well.

7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#43 Russ Graham

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 08:30 AM

I bet this could be adjusted to the existing conditions, with a smaller diameter.  Also I think 7th street west of that intersection would work better as an eastbound one-way street, due to all the valet activity and people crossing the road. 

 

I'm sure there'll be no complaints out of anybody on this board if the University leg north of the intersection happens to require demolition of the strip mall...



#44 Fort Worthology

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 10:24 AM

The 2001 proposal that would require demolition is not the same one as shown in the renderings posted by Austin.  That is a new design proposal from the Blue Zones program and, presumably, would not require demolishing any new buildings.


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#45 John T Roberts

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 01:25 PM

Thanks for the clarification.  I can see by the rendering the new buildings are not demolished.  Sometimes, I'm not thinking.



#46 Jeriat

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:08 PM

Judging by the pic, I think you may have to reduce a lane (or two) for each on coming street to still make it happen.

7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#47 johnfwd

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:28 PM

Fine.  Why has the city sat on its hands for the past 14 years without taking action?  And now that we're viewing a picturesque art rendering of a grass-covered traffic circle that might result in a smooth and quicker flow of traffic in this bustling cultural district, should we expect quicker action by the city?  Don't hold your breath waiting.



#48 Fort Worthology

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:58 PM

Judging by the pic, I think you may have to reduce a lane (or two) for each on coming street to still make it happen.

 

I believe that was also part of the Blue Zones recommendation, yes.


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#49 Russ Graham

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 03:03 PM

I think this is just a "what if" rendering to get a concept of what it would look like, not an actual proposal for a budget item or anything.  The next step is to incorporate these design principles into the Master Thoroughfare plan.  From a practical political point of view the city would be foolish to move forward with this roundabout until there are one or two active roundabouts functioning in Fort Worth.  Once the roundabouts at Rosedale and Ayers and the one on Henderson are up and running, the city can point to those as evidence that these things work "right here in Cowtown".  Until that happens there will be all kinds of uproar for any newfangled traffic thingey.  (*cough* Forest Park Road Diet *cough*)

 

I think there's lots of room for "removal" of lanes as you come up to the intersection - think of northbound University where it splits from three lanes into three left turn lanes, two (or three?) through lanes, and one right turn lane.  In a roundabout scenario this would be replaced by two "through or left" lanes, and one right turn lane.  Similarly on westbound 7th street, the mess of left turn lanes (one for University, one and a half for Camp Bowie) and a right turn lane (for Bailey, or 7th, or University) would be replaced by just three incoming lanes, one of which would be a right turn lane bypassing the roundabout entirely.  

 

EDIT - aaand this is not what the picture shows... so never mind.  It could be done though.



#50 PPoole

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Posted 11 October 2015 - 04:04 PM

Having lived through all the discussions on the roundabout.There are no existing examples of placing the diameter circle available with over 50,000 vehicles going through it a day. Europe has traffic circles and not modern roundabouts. The city engaged a world famous authority to review the counter directed entry points and found the design flawed. 






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