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Streetcar Circulator Update


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#101 Fort Worthology

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 09:52 AM

QUOTE (FoUTASportscaster @ Dec 12 2008, 08:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To put it in perspective, next week I will be taking a honeymoon in New York. In planning the transportation from La Guardia to the hotel in Manhattan, there are two times we will have to walk a block. And it is the long block of the numbered streets, or the equivalent of a little more than 2 east-west blocks in DTFW.



That's something else worth keeping in mind, by the way - the concept of a "block." Fort Worth is unlike nearly every other city in the United States, because Downtown Fort Worth has tiny 200' long blocks. One or two blocks from the ITC is very nearly within spitting distance thanks to our block sizes. That block size is one of the great, and under-appreciated, things about Fort Worth's old urban environment. Saying something is "x blocks" from something else in Fort Worth only gets the point across if one is familiar with Fort Worth - those blocks can be far larger in other cities.

Incidentally, one of the handful of other US cities with blocks as small as ours?

Portland, Oregon.

Comparing our city to Portland is not due to fashion or fad - there are some very real design similarities between the two cities and comparisons can be very instructive indeed.

#102 cberen1

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 02:32 PM

QUOTE (FoUTASportscaster @ Dec 12 2008, 10:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
New Yorkers must laugh when they read stuff like this. Walking a block or two or three or five is nothing for them. But in comparison, 1/2 of households in the city own no car, 3/4 in affluent Manhattan don't and it boast the largest ridership of any transit system in the country by 4-5 times that of number 2. If you compare just the heavy rail aspect, it is 8 times that of number 2.


Ridership is certainly a function of the convenience, accessability, etc. of public transportation in New York. But the other half is still that the automobile is so inconvenient in New York. Hard to park, hard to drive, expensive in a lot of ways.

It's going to take a long time for that kind of public transportation reliance to develop in Fort Worth. I don't know if I'll live long enough to see more than a few hundred residents in downtown Fort Worth live without a car altogether.

#103 Fort Worthology

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 02:45 PM

I think it was just an example - nobody's expecting NYC-style transit usage in Fort Worthy any time soon. But there is a world of possibility between where we're at now and NYC. Enabling people to just own one car instead of two or three. Reducing/eliminating car trips for short errands. And on and on it goes. There is plenty of progress to be made here. One doesn't have to be completely car free to use and enjoy good transit.

#104 McHand

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 04:58 PM

QUOTE (Templeofheaven @ Dec 11 2008, 09:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
density along 7th is not high enough so local residents may not adequately support the streetcar. Then we need travelers/out of town visitors. So if the Lines do not connect with ITC, streetcars are doomed to fail.


Density right on 7th may not be high enough right now, but what about the residential neighborhoods behind and around 7th? Is this the low density you're talking about, or has this already been considered? Just throwing a question out there.

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#105 Templeofheaven

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 03:16 PM

I still cannot believe that the streetcars will not be connected to the ITC. Can someone give me a few examples where the rail-based public transportation lines operate independently of each other among the US cities? You guys mention Portland a lot. I know for sure Portland have their streetcars connected to their MAX light rail lines. Having the lines connected to each other creates 1 + 1> 2 synergy. Why cannot we do it right outright?

Earlier, by "fail", i meant unsuccessful.

#106 FoUTASportscaster

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Posted 13 December 2008 - 05:03 PM

^One of the things to consider is time lost if the streetcar goes the two blocks out of the way to go to the ITC, then takes the two blocks to get back. That will reduce ridership for those using it for non-ITC purposes, which should be big in a neighborhood circulator. Will the extra connection increase ridership in any measurable degree, likely not, since walking the two blocks is not a big impediment to using the system. It's presence will actually add riders to the TRE, since connections to downtown will be easier.

The cost will be higher, though not by a large amount, but if $10 million can be saved, then that makes it worth it.

I think it is important to say that two blocks in FW does qualify as being close enough to be a transfer.

QUOTE (cberen1 @ Dec 12 2008, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (FoUTASportscaster @ Dec 12 2008, 10:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
New Yorkers must laugh when they read stuff like this. Walking a block or two or three or five is nothing for them. But in comparison, 1/2 of households in the city own no car, 3/4 in affluent Manhattan don't and it boast the largest ridership of any transit system in the country by 4-5 times that of number 2. If you compare just the heavy rail aspect, it is 8 times that of number 2.


Ridership is certainly a function of the convenience, accessability, etc. of public transportation in New York. But the other half is still that the automobile is so inconvenient in New York. Hard to park, hard to drive, expensive in a lot of ways.

It's going to take a long time for that kind of public transportation reliance to develop in Fort Worth. I don't know if I'll live long enough to see more than a few hundred residents in downtown Fort Worth live without a car altogether.


Yes New York is inconvenient to the car, but it is so because transit is so convenient. The land uses there facilitate walking and transit. So does DTFW and surrounding neighborhoods. No city, not Boston, San Fransisco or DC will see MTA's ridership numbers, but does that mean we should scrap every transit design principle?

#107 dustin

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 10:05 AM

As i mentioned before, if the line goes down calhoun, it would be just ONE block off of the ITC. In every other major city in the world I have been to with a subway, when you have to switch lines, you can walk a good bit to get to the new line, up and down escalators and through a labyrinth of corridors. In cities like NY, DC, or London, sometimes that walk can be a lot longer than a city block, it is just underground so perhaps it isnt as noticeable. I dont think that visitors are going to be too off put by a block to get to the streetcar. Further, a public art project can make that walk pleasant and with a visual connection to the ITC, people wont even notice.

Also, a significant number of the visitor traffic is going to be from hotels and the convention center. Making those connections are going to be what makes the visitor traffic successful.

#108 JKC

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:30 AM

Standing just outside the main entry to the intermodal and looking west on 9th, Calhoun and Commerce are very visible and appear very close. Also I agree that a "dress up" of the walk along 9th would make it very easy.

#109 360texas

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 09:48 AM

I would think this is all about getting people to where they need to go. People have a 'need' get to their destination. People have choices - take the car, walk, ride a bike, or take a street car. If it is more convenient to get to the ITC they will use all means of transport that is easiest to get there. It might not be the street car. I would think that making a street walkway more inviting is not the answer. Install a covered people mover conveyor [like at airports] for 1 block.

Steet Cars are people transportation - Get the people to where they need to go.

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#110 Templeofheaven

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 12:58 PM

I recommend that the Fort Worth streetcars, instead of going all the way straight on Commerce, go along Commerce --> 9th --> Jones --> 12th --> commerce, to accommodate connecting to the ITC. I assume this may increase cost but not hugely while becoming more pedestrian friendly. Thought?

#111 Keller Pirate

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 02:57 PM

Not connecting to the ITC is a major flaw in my opinion. You can't put a price on connectivity. Saving $10 million isn't a good reason not to connect, because if money were a consideration, you wouldn't build a circulator around the downtown area. As pointed out, the blocks are short in Ft Worth and it is a walkable downtown, once you are in it. Also streetcars are only marginally faster than walking, so taking too long to go by the ITC doesn't make sense either. When I come downtown I park once and walk from place to place without moving my car everytime I change location.

If I was staying at the Worthington and needed to go to the convention center, I would most likely walk, unless I came out the door of the hotel and a streetcar was stopped at the corner. If one wasn't stopped nearby, I would walk to my destination in DT Ft Worth because it would be faster than waiting for a streetcar to come along. I can't see any way a streetcar line that loops from Belknap to Lancaster and back would ever provide any kind of decent return on investment. Therefore money is no object and a streetcar line should connect to the other rail mode in Ft Worth where the "choice" riders will be coming to town.

The TRE line to the airport should be running by 2012, probably before the streetcars, it will provide a direct rail connection to Ft Worth without the bus ride required today. I think this could provide an advantage in tourism that Ft Worth doesn't have today. Without a rail connection you will be dropping visitors off in a creepy area and expecting them to walk to their final destination. I donít even like to leave my car there, it is an area that could use some redevelopment. Is this the front door to Ft Worth you want to show? Or is it the back door?

Of course, the hotels probably will provide shuttle busses to pick up guests because they wouldnít expect people to walk in that area. The other choice for travelers in the know might be to ride the TRE to the T&P depot and catch a streetcar from there. That would probably be the choice of most travelers from both the airport and Dallas. I guess that would turn the ITC a poorly used white elephant as the connectivity of the T&P is known. Amtrak passengers will still have to use the ITC and walk to their destinations or call for shuttles.

I realize the circulator around the DT business area isnít the only part of the starter route, but that is what we are talking about here. Not connecting to the ITC would be a blunder.


#112 JBB

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 03:21 PM

We're talking, what, one or two blocks here? Maybe I'm missing something in the "connectivity" argument, but if the assumption is that people aren't going to be willing to walk the 1 to 2 blocks from the ITC to the street car line, why build the line at all? If we're assuming that people aren't willing to walk a block or 2 at the ITC, then wouldn't you be assuming that the only people riding the line would be those that are going doorstep to doorstep? I'm not saying you guys are wrong, but this whole problem with connectivity to the ITC seems to be straw grasping at best.

#113 Fort Worthology

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 03:51 PM

QUOTE (JBB @ Dec 16 2008, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not saying you guys are wrong, but this whole problem with connectivity to the ITC seems to be straw grasping at best.


Agreed. I'd like to point out that there is already a plan drawn up to rework 9th Street to become more pedestrian friendly and more attractive, with brick sidewalk pavers and trees and whatnot, from the ITC to Throckmorton Street. And should the streetcar help spur infill on those parking lots near the ITC, then virtually every problem with the connection is removed.

http://fortworthgov....posed_Final.pdf

The city's web site lists this 9th Street makeover as happening in 2009.

One or two blocks to the ITC is, IMHO, grasping at straws, indeed.

#114 Keller Pirate

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 04:28 PM

Why not got to the ITC? Why build a circulator at all, what will it do for downtown?

#115 360texas

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 04:32 PM

The ITC was designed to be "The" transportation connection hub location. Get the street car design done Right the First Time ... and you won't have to walk 1 block or carry on this silly discussion.

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#116 Templeofheaven

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 05:08 PM

QUOTE (Atomic Glee @ Dec 16 2008, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (JBB @ Dec 16 2008, 03:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not saying you guys are wrong, but this whole problem with connectivity to the ITC seems to be straw grasping at best.



One or two blocks to the ITC is, IMHO, grasping at straws, indeed.


Can someone explain what Intermodel really means? Why did we bring commuter rail, bus, and greyhound under one roof, instead of spreading them along the blocks? I think it's called synergy of 1 + 1 > 2.

You need to know that we, fort worth forumers, do not represent or are not a good sample of the general public. You don't mind walking two blocks, i have no doubt. Don't generalize to the public please. The mistake could be costly.

I doubt the committee even studies that, i.e. the cost of having connectivity of 2 blocks away.

#117 djold1

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 05:23 PM

QUOTE
Why not got to the ITC? Why build a circulator at all, what will it do for downtown?

Right to the heart of the matter KP..

A scenario:

A couple from Dallas plans to spend a long summer weekend at the Omni and being smart and thoughtful folk decide that the TRE is the way to go. Friday evening after work they pack two bags, a laptop and a cloth tote bag and take Dart or the MAT to the TRE station which is directly adjacent. Walk across the platfom and away we go.

After a delightful ride into the FW Intermodel they disembark in a giddy mood ready for their weekend to begin. They have tickets for the Bass Hall and a great show. Carrying their modest baggage they exit the front of the Intermodal to climb aboard the new streetcar they have heard of to make their energy efficient and modern trip to the Omni.

What? Where is this electric coach of our dreams?

The gentle old family retainer at the curbside politely informs them that they "need only to walk 1 block to the west to the streetcar stop on Commerce. The way is nicely marked and lighted."

Oh.. say they...

At this point it might be wise to inject an informational note. Being summer, the outside temperature is hovering at 95+ (it's a mild day).

Or,

FW is having one of it's little tornado watches that includes some driving showers mixed with mud from out in Odessa.

And then they find that must go 8 to 10 blocks on the modern streetcar circulator system to get to the Omni which is actually only two blocks more west of the Commerce street stop.
Would you please get us a stinking, broken down, pollution spewing taxi,,, kind sir?

Otherwise our couple has a fine time, enjoying the show and the sights...
Until Sunday evening when it's time to leave....

And they realize that the good old TRE doesn't run on Sundays...

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#118 JBB

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 05:25 PM

What are people that are currently riding on the TRE to the two stations that are in the hinterlands with respect to downtown activity doing? They're walking way more than a block or two to get to their destination right now.

#119 Fort Worthology

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 06:37 PM

QUOTE (Templeofheaven @ Dec 16 2008, 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I doubt the committee even studies that, i.e. the cost of having connectivity of 2 blocks away.


I can assure you that the committee absolutely 100% has thought about the system's relationship to the ITC. They just came to a different conclusion than you.

And these aren't stupid people - there are some very, very talented planners involved in this.

#120 Templeofheaven

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Posted 16 December 2008 - 08:47 PM

Atomic, Can you tell us HOW you can assure me of that?


"has thought about" is not enough. What are primary and secondary research that have been done on the system's relationship to the ITC?

I am sure there are very talented planners involved. However, that alone does not suffice.

#121 Keller Pirate

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 08:23 AM

QUOTE (Atomic Glee @ Dec 16 2008, 06:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And these aren't stupid people - there are some very, very talented planners involved in this.

How talented are they? Can they do magic tricks or juggle chain saws?

Weíre just talking here, as far as I know, none of us is on the committee and I donít believe their work is cast in stone, so why would any of the "No Intermodal Center" folks be in favor of that?

How do you judge a talented planner? A talented planner in my book would have started at the ITC and drawn their lines out from that point.

Are the T and committee afraid to go to the ITC and compete with the bus franchise?

Ft Worth schedules a huge amount of events every year to attract people to town. Why not make it easy for them to get there. A travel article about how easy it was to get from the airport to a hotel and never needing a car all weekend, beats an article that says rent a car at DFW, the transportation system is poorly planned, you are dropped off in a seedy area after dark to walk to your destination.

In Ft Worth it is never Cold or Hot or Rains and people coming from other cities won't have baggage and won't mind walking along urine smelling streets for just a block or two.

The bums won't hang out in that area because the police will move them out of town to keep them from peeing on the nice brick sidewalk where visitorís bags are rolling along.

People riding the TRE today only have the choice, walk or bus, but I guarantee you in four years almost every traveler that gets off a train from the airport and walks until they come to the track are going to say to themselves, "how stupid,Ē just like I did when I rode the McKinney Ave trolley that stopped short of the DART rail by a couple of blocks.



#122 AndyN

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 08:37 AM

Hey, KP

In all fairness, the McKinney Avenue streetcar was there many years before the DART line. It's the DART line that missed. FWIW, the engineering to extend that line to the nearby DART station is almost complete and maybe construction begins in early 2009.

As for the intelligence of the design committee, I was at the meetings and I am afraid private interests did get in the way of the best routing. I hope the consultant has the lattitude to fix the errors in the downtown area and the southside.
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#123 djold1

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 09:01 AM

The December 16th proposals are ready for a PDF download:
(Scroll down the website to the Presentations and Handouts)

December 16th Streetcar Proposal to City Council

I would suggest that the best approach at this time would be to clear the boards and invite proposals from at least three competent transit planners. After their proposals are made, then the political infighting and turf wars could begin. It should never have happened this early in the process.

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#124 360texas

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 10:19 AM

I did a quick look at most all the PDF's for recommended routing.

Between 1998 to November 17, 2008 the route appears to have an east /west loop to and from the ITC.

In the December 16 2008 presentation that E/W loop to the ITC seems to have been removed from the proposed or recommended route

What happened ? Why was the ITC loop removed? Who removed the ITC loop?


Looking at the Tacoma, Portland and Seattle routes, they all seem to have direct interconnectivity or compatibility with their regional light rail systems. Why doesn't Fort Worth want transit [read people] interconnectivity between "
Modern street car system" and regional transportation systems? '1 block walk doesn't cut it'

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#125 AndyN

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 10:51 AM

I think that is where the private interests outweighed common sense. There were finance subcommittee meetings going on which I did not attend. I imagine some of the developers whose projects will be kicking in a chunk of change said that for the project to get their support, the route needs to go....

Is the disconnect to the ITC the hand of Bass? I have no clue. But I think that decision, the routing of the line on 7th after it passes University, and the Samuels spur were all decisions made at the request of developers/landowners. I know that some financial commitments and in-kind improvements to accomodate the streetcar line were discussed regarding far West 7th street.

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#126 Fort Worthology

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 11:29 AM

QUOTE (AndyN @ Dec 17 2008, 08:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hope the consultant has the lattitude to fix the errors in the downtown area and the southside.


Andy - what errors do you see in the Near Southside route? South Main and Magnolia are exactly the two streets that ought to be home to the system - the original Hemphill and Rosedale route was the one that seemed an error to me (and FWSI). These streets will be the primary mixed-use corridors for the district and have both plenty of existing stock for redevelopment and plenty of vacant lots and unloved post-war junk for infill.

If it's more 7th Avenue, I speak from experience with the selection of that route - it was based on a specific set of needs and desires and there was communication with the hospitals involved. It evolved a great deal from the initial layout that I was sent. The end result is a route that allows connections to all five major hospitals and both of the district's designated primary mixed-use corridors, one of which is already the premiere destination street in the district.

(There's also an alternate route that that would run a little further up 7th and then connect over to the Midtown train station, but it's not really out in the open just yet and it's not that far along.)

I can't speak about the inner workings of other parts of the system, but I've been privy to a lot of the Near Southside process. There's room for refinement but I would consider any other route than Magnolia to be a badly missed opportunity.

#127 Keller Pirate

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 11:30 AM

QUOTE (AndyN @ Dec 17 2008, 08:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey, KP

In all fairness, the McKinney Avenue streetcar was there many years before the DART line. It's the DART line that missed. FWIW, the engineering to extend that line to the nearby DART station is almost complete and maybe construction begins in early 2009.

As for the intelligence of the design committee, I was at the meetings and I am afraid private interests did get in the way of the best routing. I hope the consultant has the lattitude to fix the errors in the downtown area and the southside.

I knew that, you were the person that told me McKinney Ave was built before DART. My point was my reaction, how stupid, until I was enlightened by you. How many people are out there that didnít have the benefit of talking with AndyN?

I believe the committee is being too downtown business district concentric by leaving out the ITC. They either didn't consider the impact of a direct connection to the airport or can't see the larger picture. Could this affect decisions in communities like Colleyville and North Richland Hills that the T is trying to get in on the new rail line?

Also, not mentioned so far, is the proposed regional commuter train network leaders have been planning, if only they can get the money. Why wouldn't Ft Worth want to be connected to that? Would a lack of connectivity be something for opponents to grasp when taxes for this project come up for a vote?

Transportation is regional, I hate to see the biggest city in Tarrant County screw it up and pull a TCC.



#128 Recyclican

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 08:26 PM

QUOTE (Keller Pirate @ Dec 17 2008, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
...and pull a TCC.


More like pull a De La Garza?


#129 Keller Pirate

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 05:24 PM

Reading Mike Lee's article in Wednesday's Star-Telegram leads me to believe that Joel Burns gets the connectivity issue.

I have been reading the committee report and a few things are worth commenting on.

The size of the starter plan is huge compared to the three systems the committee studied, Seattle 1.3 miles, Tacoma 1.6 miles and Portland 2.4 miles. Ft Worth 11-12 miles. However if you have the money, dare to dream big.

The Southside and Seventh Street lines seem reasonable to me.

Looking at just the report and not having the benefit of seeing the presentation I think the downtown portion is too ambitious. As Atomic and others have pointed out Ft Worth is very walkable. The report shows 2 loops around DT FW. Since it is such a walkable town, one loop around the central business district should be sufficient and save some cash for the extensions. Of course, a loop should include the ITC. smile.gif

Funding; I think the numbers look good for capital and operating costs in 2008 dollars. Since this is going to take a while before construction starts I would increase capital costs upward a bit. Will Mayor Mike turn loose some of the gas money?

Operating costs show an estimated $8.1 million a year for the full system. Farebox revenues are lumped with advertising revenue and sponsorships, so it is hard to tell what actual farebox recovery is projected, but I'm sure it is in the 5-10% range. This is such a small amount of the cost I would like to suggest the Ft Worth be bold and demonstrate national leadership by making the service free for riders. It will carry exponentially more riders if it is free. I know that is not the case elsewhere but it would set Ft Worth up to be the city other cities visit to learn about streetcars.

I also see that a small amount of both capital and operating costs will come from Tarrant County. Some operating costs will come from notorious agencies like JPS and TCC. Will these sources of revenue be subject to a vote of the citizens that pay taxes to these entities?

Somewhere, I think there is a big smile on Andy's face as I realize that I may have some of my hard earned tax dollars going into the Ft Worth streetcar. ninja.gif

#130 AndyN

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 05:12 PM

I am curious what they are going to call the system. For what it's worth, NTHT, Inc. adopted the name "Fort Worth Streetcar" back in 2005 for our streetcar operating division. Of course, we are not operating at this time, so the name is not being used as much as NTHT Inc., but I do have meeting minutes that show adoption of the name, receipts for website domains, and marketing materials that we were using for fundraising purposes. I'm not trying to stick my thumb in the City or Atomicglee's eye, but it seems like if that is the name they want to use, we could come to an agreement about transfer.
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#131 SurplusPopulation

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 08:46 PM

I don't usually weigh in on these things (I prefer to sit back and read all sides). However, I have a couple of thoughts...

1) I've taken the TRE to Mavs and Stars games several times from downtown (ITC & T&P). The train is great even though it drops you off a block or so from the door of the AAC. Before any of you jump all over me, I know that I'm talking apples and oranges. The point is that I never mind the walk and the people who pack the special trains before and after games don't seem to mind either.

2) Is this streetcar going to drop every rider off at the door of their desired location? If a "couple from Dallas" takes the TRE to downtown and wants to go to Bass Hall, then Reata, then to Pete's Piano Bar, finishing up the night at Paddy Red's, will the streetcar go to all locations? If so, great! There's gonna be a little walking involved on one or both ends of their ride. I don't think the point of street cars (or any system of mass transit) is to take people frm door to door. I see the street car as encouraging people to explore parts of the city that they might not normally 'mess' with or to cut down on transport to get from point A to a kinda far flung point B.

3) Andy, you mentioned that some developers weighed heavily on the routing decisions and implied that that's a negative thing. Isn't that what we want? Local business leaders taking an active role in building Fort Worth's infrastructure in order to bring citizens to their developments. That's good, right? Who should be making these decisions? Aren't civic leaders (business leaders) the ones who were influential in the decision making processes in previous generations?

These things being said I would prefer that it connect to the ITC. However it is not a deal-breaker in my mind. It is absolutely impossible for this thing to be all things to all people. A block walk along a redeveloped sidewalk is not preferable but is not worth turning our backs on the entire project and what it could mean for this city.

#132 JKC

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 04:13 PM

QUOTE (Keller Pirate @ Dec 19 2008, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Looking at just the report and not having the benefit of seeing the presentation I think the downtown portion is too ambitious. As Atomic and others have pointed out Ft Worth is very walkable. The report shows 2 loops around DT FW. Since it is such a walkable town, one loop around the central business district should be sufficient and save some cash for the extensions.



Those are two "options" for A loop.

#133 FoUTASportscaster

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 01:20 PM

QUOTE (SurplusPopulation @ Dec 29 2008, 08:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1) I've taken the TRE to Mavs and Stars games several times from downtown (ITC & T&P). The train is great even though it drops you off a block or so from the door of the AAC. Before any of you jump all over me, I know that I'm talking apples and oranges. The point is that I never mind the walk and the people who pack the special trains before and after games don't seem to mind either.


Agreed. I don't get the "it doesn't drop people off directly at the doors, so it doesn't connect" idea. If someone drives down there, they are going to walk farther to get to their destination than if they take commuter rail, which has no where near enough frequency to merit adding 3-5 minutes to every streetcar route that will go through there.

As a transportation planning student, I have yet to see a report, study or prevailing idea that suggests a transfer of this type reduces ridership potential.

Another real world example in Dallas. The most used transit stations are West End train station and CBD West Transfer Center. They are a block apart and people walk all hours of the day. It is the most heavily traveled block in downtown. The third most used multi-modal transfer point in the DART system is Pearl train station and CBD East Transfer Center. It is two long blocks away and not even visable from each other.

I'd also like to point out that the streetcar system is for local travel between neighborhoods. It is not meant to be a higher capacity regional system. It is meant to help people get from downtown to the Cultural District or residents on the south side to the restaurants downtown. These riders will patronize the system less if you add the time it would take to go to the ITC. The distance between the two will not be a deterant to using the system for the locals who do travel to it for the TRE. TRE ridership will not fall. Those using the trains now will still use it. Ridership actually will go up as people can now take it and then board a streetcar who would otherwise not board a bus.

So, if the system is designed for locals, and locals will ride it less if it detours to the ITC, and TRE ridership will rise at least marginally and a small walking transfer can still be made, what is the issue?

QUOTE
2) Is this streetcar going to drop every rider off at the door of their desired location? If a "couple from Dallas" takes the TRE to downtown and wants to go to Bass Hall, then Reata, then to Pete's Piano Bar, finishing up the night at Paddy Red's, will the streetcar go to all locations? If so, great! There's gonna be a little walking involved on one or both ends of their ride. I don't think the point of street cars (or any system of mass transit) is to take people frm door to door. I see the street car as encouraging people to explore parts of the city that they might not normally 'mess' with or to cut down on transport to get from point A to a kinda far flung point B.


I will also point out that car users will also have the ability to use the streetcar, further clouding the reason that a detour to the ITC must be made.

QUOTE
3) Andy, you mentioned that some developers weighed heavily on the routing decisions and implied that that's a negative thing. Isn't that what we want? Local business leaders taking an active role in building Fort Worth's infrastructure in order to bring citizens to their developments. That's good, right? Who should be making these decisions? Aren't civic leaders (business leaders) the ones who were influential in the decision making processes in previous generations?


Agreed here too. In looking at the past history, Fort Worth developed what it is because businessman and real estate developers built streetcar routes to their properties. While exisiting properties still need attention and solid transportation acumen must be applied, it is refreshing to see former NIMBY's turn into YIMBY's.

QUOTE
These things being said I would prefer that it connect to the ITC. However it is not a deal-breaker in my mind. It is absolutely impossible for this thing to be all things to all people. A block walk along a redeveloped sidewalk is not preferable but is not worth turning our backs on the entire project and what it could mean for this city.


In this case a think it is preferable. Adequate signage, pleasant walking experience and an already visible location are all that is needed. Ridership, while admittedly not running the modeling, will be higher on a local system if it is designed for the locals.

I also find it ironic that some of the people most critical of the lack of a direct connection to the ITC are also generally the mosty critical of transit in general.

#134 AndyN

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 02:48 PM

WTS Greater Dallas-Fort Worth Chapter
March Luncheon Program

Tuesday, March 17, 2009
Intermodal Transportation Center, Fort Worth
1001 Jones Street, Fort Worth, TX 76102
11:45 Registration * 12:00-12:30 pm Lunch * 12:30-1:00 pm Presentation

Modern Streetcar Proposals
For Fort Worth & Dallas

Fort Worth: Featuring Dana Burghdoff, Deputy Director Ė Planning, Planning and Development Department, City of Fort Worth

Dallas: Featuring Jay Kline, Assistant Vice President Ė Dallas Area Rapid Transit


As regional rail commuter programs are being planned for the entire region, each of the largest two cities in the area are examining the potential for modern streetcar systems to connect to those rail facilities and circulate within the downtowns and near downtown areas.

Join us in the March WTS meeting as we hear the status of plans in Fort Worth and Dallas. Staff leaders from the City of Fort Worth and Dallas Area Rapid Transit will describe the work that has been accomplished in each community, and the next steps for consideration in turning these dreams into reality.

Lunch & Program - $10.00 members / $15.00 non-members
No shows will be billed.
Walkups without a reservation will be charged an additional $5.00
~Please indicate any special dietary requirements.~

RSVP by Friday, March 13 to Rosalind Miller
Phone: 817/215-8930 * Fax: 817/215-8934
Email: rmiller@the-t.com

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#135 Electricron

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:06 PM

I thought Fort Worth would be building two streetcar lines initially. One heading west towards Will Rogers District, the other heading south towards the Hospital District.

Ideally, imho, the streetcar line heading west on should reach all the way towards the ITC where it reverses direction. The line heading south should reach the Tarrant County courthouse where it loops back. I'm assuming the line heading south must follow parallel streets, either Taylor or Throckmorton and Commerce or Calhoun. I'm also assuming the west line uses 7th street. If in a single street alignment, it could turn south on Jones for a terminus station at the front of the ITC. If in a loop, the east end of the loop should reach Jones street. Where 7th street turns northeastward at the intersection of Lamar, one end of the loop proceeds on 7th, but the other end turns south until 10th, where it turns east onto 9th at the intersection of Throckmorton.

Those who would rather walk the block or two to reach the ITC can, and those who would rather wait for the other streetcar can too.

There's a solution to keep close to Main, and get to the ITC too. Streetcar tracks can cross one another you know. Those on the south streetcar line who rather walk one to two blocks can, and those who rather wait for the west streetcar line can wait for the other streetcar to go to the ITC. This solution solves everyones problems.

#136 FoUTASportscaster

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 12:47 PM

This could potentially affect a streetcar system downtown.

http://www.lightrail...tm#USA_20090414

#137 Fort Worthology

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 01:05 PM

I would expect to be seeing an official site for the Fort Worth Streetcar at some point in the not-too-distant future. I owned a domain name, fortworthstreetcar.org , which I had intended to use for my own site about the project, but I recently sold it to the city.

#138 AndyN

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Posted 17 July 2009 - 12:53 AM

Click Here to read the full story in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

Regional focus shifts to funding streetcar system in Fort Worth, Dallas
By GORDON DICKSON
gdickson@star-telegram.com

Streetcar lines could return to downtown Fort Worth and Dallas by 2012, or at least be under construction by then, if the cities can secure federal stimulus money for the projects, officials said Thursday.

The two cities, with help from the North Central Texas Council of Governments, plan to apply for $95 million in federal grants by a Sept. 19 deadline. While itís unclear how the money would be divided, it would help kick-start a streetcar line that Fort Worth officials have talked about running from downtown to museums, hospitals and the Stockyards. It has been estimated that the project could cost as much as $250 million.

"Itís a huge shift," said Fort Worth Councilman Joel Burns. "Until a few days ago, we were talking about still being in the planning process in 2012."...

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#139 RD Milhollin

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Posted 17 July 2009 - 08:17 AM

Securing funding for streetcars would be a huge shift in transportation priorities for Fort Worth-area officials. Until now, the Fort Worth Transportation Authority has maintained that the most important project on the table is a proposed $471 million commuter rail line from southwest Fort Worth to Grapevine.

That project is expected to be at least partly operational by 2013 ó but only if Congress can be persuaded to approve a federal new-start transit grant for up to half the cost.

T officials view the streetcar project as mostly an economic development vehicle, and say they will continue to focus on the more regionally significant commuter rail line to Grapevine.


I would be a little concerned that this streetcar incentive program, as beneficial as it may be for downtown Fort Worth, could be a major distraction for The T if they don't stay focused. The T has to run the local bus system as well as partner in the TRE and be involved in planning for the SW2NE; is this agency up to these simultaneous multiple tasks? I am not saying they aren't, but just a few years ago all they did was run buses, and not really well at that. Would The T have to be the steering agency for the streetcar program, or would it be possible for another agency to concentrate on that? Alternatively, could the new "cooperative spirit" between Dallas and Fort Worth allow for all the regional rail projects including the SW2NE and the Denton A-Train lines to be combined and run by a regional agency? Seems that would help standardize equipment needs for the region and allow a coordinated approach to grant writing/admin for funding requests.

Itís not yet clear how the cities would divide the money, or what parts of their streetcar systems they would tackle first.

While Fort Worth would get nowhere near what it will cost to build the entire project, it might be enough to build a couple of miles of tracks and perhaps some streetcar stop improvements.


I hate to be pessimistic, but I feel this plan would result in Fort Worth getting a small part of the short end of the funding stick. Combining STREETCAR funding is going to probably result in Dallas getting to decide what is best for Fort Worth. The streetcar is best seen as local transportation, and surely Fort Worth is capable of deciding how best to plan and implement a Fort Worth system. The opposing view might be that there is more experience with this sort of thing in Dallas due to their time planning, building, and running DART.

I would feel a little better if regional rail lines were administered regionally and local rail streetcars administered locally.


#140 AndyN

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Posted 17 July 2009 - 09:59 AM

To my knowledge, the T has not been selected as the operator, manager, builder or anything for the downtown streetcar. While they have been involved in the committee meetings, the streetcar circulator study was a City of Fort Worth initiative, not the T. It would not be a good thing for a circulator to compete with the commuter rail for federal dollars, but I would hope we could manage both.
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#141 Electricron

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Posted 17 July 2009 - 09:51 PM

It sure would be nice to get some federal funds for streetcars, but is Fort Worth and Dallas ready to spend the money?

Lots of other cities are putting in requests for rail stimulus funds too, not sure how much Dallas and Fort Worth should expect?



#142 jefffwd

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 07:09 AM

Why do we need streetcars when we just got shiny new buses that look like streetcars? rotflmao.gif

#143 Electricron

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 01:32 PM

QUOTE (jefffwd @ Jul 18 2009, 08:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why do we need streetcars when we just got shiny new buses that look like streetcars? rotflmao.gif


Because the shiny new buses aren't going to go everywhere the streetcars will.
Because the shiny new buses aren't going to drive redevelopments along their routes.



#144 Jamie

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 05:57 PM

QUOTE (Electricron @ Jul 18 2009, 01:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (jefffwd @ Jul 18 2009, 08:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why do we need streetcars when we just got shiny new buses that look like streetcars? rotflmao.gif

Because the shiny new buses aren't going to go everywhere the streetcars will.
Because the shiny new buses aren't going to drive redevelopments along their routes.

I'll add another one: "Permanence". When a streetcar route is established, it's extremely difficult to "move" the line to a different routing. This is a valuable asset to long-term development along the route.

#145 Dismuke

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Posted 18 July 2009 - 08:16 PM

QUOTE (jefffwd @ Jul 18 2009, 08:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why do we need streetcars when we just got shiny new buses that look like streetcars? rotflmao.gif



You are making a joke, of course. But there actually is a valid point behind it.

Why is it believed that streetcars will attract development while buses won't? From a passenger standpoint, what is the advantage of a streetcar verses a really nice bus that is just as roomy and comfortable? From a logistics standpoint, the advantages of the bus are obvious: the infrastructure is already in place. And bus routes are completely flexible - new ones can be added with very short notice in response to special events or growing demand for additional coverage. Not only is the infrastructure already in place for buses, it makes use of the money that has already been and would already need to be spent on roads.

Let's be candid - the primary advantage of putting in streetcars is because buses have a horrible image problem. They are things that school children and adults who are too poor to afford any other means of getting around ride. Think yellow with hard green seats. Think Greyhound. Think of the current T and Dart buses.

Aren't the routes that the proposed streetcar system will travel along already covered by buses? Will the streetcars get people to where they need to go any faster than the new style buses which have the ability to override traffic lights?

And here is the big question: the people who are projected to ride the new streetcar system (assuming that somebody has taken a study to determine if such people actually exist in significant numbers), how are they currently getting to wherever they will be going? Are they taking the bus? Or are they driving simply because they either think that riding one of the current buses instead is either too horrible an experience or is somehow beneath them? Will that change if there is a streetcar? If so - well, you have to admit that is being finicky in a way that is VERY expensive. Would the upgraded buses which are supposed to be more comfortable be enough to persuade them? If not - then what does that really say about such people?

If they bring a streetcar down Camp Bowie, I would only use it VERY rarely. Such a streetcar would be of zero benefit to me as I work far beyond downtown or anyplace the system will go. If I wanted to go to Montgomery Plaza, for instance, to do some shopping - well, I would be much better off taking my vehicle so that I could have something to carry it back in rather than having to carry it myself. Now, if I had out of town company, I might take my guests on the streetcar to a restaurant or to tour downtown because there would be a certain novelty factor to it. I certainly would not tell my guests: "Lets catch a bus to downtown instead of driving." Somehow I don't think that would go over very well - there is zero novelty factor to a bus. In that respect, I would only use the streetcar as a tourist.

On the other hand, if I worked downtown and had no need to run errands during the day or immediately after work, I probably would ALREADY ride the bus to work - especially if parking was a hassle or I had to pay for it. In other words, if I had any use for the streetcar, I probably would ALREADY be riding the bus. I admit that there is a novelty factor to riding a streetcar. But if one rides it daily, that novelty factor will go away very quickly. And once that novelty does wear off - well, again, from a passenger standpoint, what are the advantages of a streetcar verses a fancy bus that is just as comfortable?
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#146 djold1

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 09:27 AM

QUOTE
Why do we need streetcars when we just got shiny new buses that look like streetcars?


As Dismuke said.. while this line may have been partly in jest, it is central to the core of the whole streetcar vs buses conversation.

The three responses to it were of the knee-jerk variety and about as shallow and thoughtless as anything I have read.

QUOTE
Because the shiny new buses aren't going to go everywhere the streetcars will.


What do you really mean by this? A bus can go anywhere that there is a street that will accomodate it. One of the advantages of a bus is that routing is much more flexible. If the transit company decides to change or add a route then it's a matter of days. Not easily possible with overhead wire fed tracked or wheeled vechicles.

QUOTE
Because the shiny new buses aren't going to drive redevelopments along their routes.


The real question is whether in Fort Worth any kind of transit will drive development or redevelopment. There is very little solid evidence resulting from studies in multiple cities that have the same characteristics as Fort Worth including climate that a lot of economic improvement is due to transit of any kind. Two smaller cities in the very temperate Pacific Northwest do not make a solid case study for Fort Worth. Unlike one of those NW cities, none of the Fort Worth Urban Villages is in a rotten slum state.

And who is to say that if a super bus with exactly the same characteristics and finish as the streetcars that are being suggested were laid into exclusive curbside running routes with built up curbs that there would not be a positive response? Show me a study that says it can't. A bus or streetcar can be built on almost exactly the same chassis. The interiors can be almost identical. In fact, most of the streetcar manufacturers also make buses. The identical bus would cost a lot less. And those buses would run on clean CNG as the Fort Worth buses do instead of taking power from the largely coal fed electric power grid. Do your Googling. No affordable and easily developed power source is cleaner than CNG. You would have to go all atomic, wind and solar to beat it.

Please don't try to lump the development produced by light rail on Dart in with this subject. That development essentially promotes the anathema that some on this forum call "urban sprawl" since the development centers are a long way out from the city center and cannot be classsed as urban. I'm not saying that the Dart development didn't happen or wasn't good. The same thing may happen on the TRE and the NE2SW. It just isn't streetcar development. Two different things.

Incredibly, the streetcar plans for Fort Worth have nothing to do with public transit. The City of Fort Worth is very clear about this. They insist that the burden of the several hundred million dollar cost (About one-third the current estimated costs of the TRV) will be born by donation and by those on the routes that it serves. Can streetcars fly?

But now we find that there is some possiblity that the streetcar plan will be partially financed by some of the stimulus money. This changes the playing field. Stimulus money is public money and it is yours and mine as tax dollars. And I personally do not want to help finance a private transit system plan that is designed to cherry-pick high income people and somehow seduce them into using a very expensive private valet system that will probably only be used when no other source is available. The subsidy cost on a per-rider fare basis on this plan will be enormous.

The private, non-transit streetcar plan is supposed to help in the development and redevelopment of "urban villages" near the downtown area. The farthest away is the Stockyards which in spite of the promotion is not even in the near future plans. The other basic areas are west as far as Montgomery and south through the Medical district with a line to just east of I-35 as a political sop. Also consider that everyone of these areas is already served by modern, energy efficient buses. Service is available now to the level of demand.

Think back a year to when times were good. The 7th street corridor was booming. Why would it need help? The southside was making good progress and I doubt that a streetcar to susbstitute for the already existing bus service would add much to the development pace or quality. And the Stockyards, which probably could use it best because it is a tourist based economy really wasn't in the plans anyway except to pacify the politicians.

QUOTE
"Permanence". When a streetcar route is established, it's extremely difficult to "move" the line to a different routing. This is a valuable asset to long-term development along the route.


Of all the excuses this is the most ridiculous. So,, somehow the prospective rider will see steel rails in the street and "know" that superior(?) transportation will be available at some time. Duh! Of course that rider has to be at a place where there is a streetcar stop and boarding sign. Just like the bus stop and boarding signs and shelters that exist now. The rider has no more idea when looking at those shiny rails where they go, or if they have been built and then, as used to happen in Fort Worth in the past, the line was disused for some reason either temporarily or permanently.

I thought the idea of the streetcar was to attract high income and presumably intelligent riders. Do they really need steel rails in the street at their IQ level? Most of them will be looking at the route map and schedule on their Blackberry instead.

Or, what about if we stay with buses at the curb and just paint a 4" to 6" silver center line studded with occastional reflectors in the street? For those in doubt, the words "bus line" could be painted on the strip every 10 feet. And maybe a tiny bus image. It would have exactly the same effect at a fraction of the steel rail cost.

If youi haven't already please take the time to read Dismuke's comment above. they are pretty much right on and don't need to be repeated here.

In spite of all the above, I am very much in favor of the use of streetcars in the mix of public transit in Fort Worth. Just not the boondoggle private "circulator" plan that the city and some private factions seems intent upon driving down the throats of the citizens.

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#147 FoUTASportscaster

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 07:08 AM

QUOTE (djold1 @ Jul 20 2009, 10:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The real question is whether in Fort Worth any kind of transit will drive development or redevelopment. There is very little solid evidence resulting from studies in multiple cities that have the same characteristics as Fort Worth including climate that a lot of economic improvement is due to transit of any kind. Two smaller cities in the very temperate Pacific Northwest do not make a solid case study for Fort Worth. Unlike one of those NW cities, none of the Fort Worth Urban Villages is in a rotten slum state.


Unless you separate Fort Worth from the rest of the region, there is plenty of evidence. It has happened in Dallas (both DART and MATA), Plano, Richardson, Garland, Carrollton and Denton. The last two haven't even had rail service yet, but TOD's are sprouting. Why would FT. Worth be different?

QUOTE
And who is to say that if a super bus with exactly the same characteristics and finish as the streetcars that are being suggested were laid into exclusive curbside running routes with built up curbs that there would not be a positive response? Show me a study that says it can't.


There's been plenty. LA has the BRT and nothing to show for it, but its rail systems have spawned quite a bit of development. Same thing in Cleveland, Boston, Pittsburgh and even Brisbane Australia. The only place where BRT has had any impact is in Churitiba, Brazil and they are now considering rail to replace it.

QUOTE
A bus or streetcar can be built on almost exactly the same chassis. The interiors can be almost identical. In fact, most of the streetcar manufacturers also make buses. The identical bus would cost a lot less. And those buses would run on clean CNG as the Fort Worth buses do instead of taking power from the largely coal fed electric power grid. Do your Googling. No affordable and easily developed power source is cleaner than CNG. You would have to go all atomic, wind and solar to beat it.


That's all well and good, but like it or not, rail transit attracts more riders.

QUOTE
Please don't try to lump the development produced by light rail on Dart in with this subject. That development essentially promotes the anathema that some on this forum call "urban sprawl" since the development centers are a long way out from the city center and cannot be classsed as urban. I'm not saying that the Dart development didn't happen or wasn't good. The same thing may happen on the TRE and the NE2SW. It just isn't streetcar development. Two different things.


Statistically, they types of development are similar, regardless of style. There is little difference between Uptown around upper McKinney which was spawned by the streetcar and downtown Plano, which was spawned by the light rail.

And as for urban sprawl, there is a difference. Sprawl is defined by its form, not distance from a downtown. If you definition is correct, then Brooklyn is sprawl. Since it is compact and mixed-use in nature it isn't sprawl.

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Incredibly, the streetcar plans for Fort Worth have nothing to do with public transit. The City of Fort Worth is very clear about this. They insist that the burden of the several hundred million dollar cost (About one-third the current estimated costs of the TRV) will be born by donation and by those on the routes that it serves. Can streetcars fly?


Most transportation projects aren't about transportation. Never have been. From historic streetcars to current highways, it has always been about real estate development.

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But now we find that there is some possiblity that the streetcar plan will be partially financed by some of the stimulus money. This changes the playing field. Stimulus money is public money and it is yours and mine as tax dollars. And I personally do not want to help finance a private transit system plan that is designed to cherry-pick high income people and somehow seduce them into using a very expensive private valet system that will probably only be used when no other source is available. The subsidy cost on a per-rider fare basis on this plan will be enormous.


The interstate highway system was financed by the feds. For every dollare the state put toward construction, the feds put in 9. Transit will never be financed that way, but I do find it odd that you complain about them giving money to a mode that has proven to shape development patterns and have higher ridership over a mode that doesn't do either. And FYI, it isn't a private transit. Fort Worth is a public entity.

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Think back a year to when times were good. The 7th street corridor was booming. Why would it need help? The southside was making good progress and I doubt that a streetcar to susbstitute for the already existing bus service would add much to the development pace or quality. And the Stockyards, which probably could use it best because it is a tourist based economy really wasn't in the plans anyway except to pacify the politicians.


Unless you disbelieve the developers themselves, part of the reason for the boom along 7th Street was the promise of the streetcar. WHy do you think that is going to be among the first?

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Of all the excuses this is the most ridiculous. So,, somehow the prospective rider will see steel rails in the street and "know" that superior(?) transportation will be available at some time. Duh! Of course that rider has to be at a place where there is a streetcar stop and boarding sign. Just like the bus stop and boarding signs and shelters that exist now. The rider has no more idea when looking at those shiny rails where they go, or if they have been built and then, as used to happen in Fort Worth in the past, the line was disused for some reason either temporarily or permanently.


It's quite obvious you missed the point. A bus stop isn't permanent. Let me give you an real world, personal example. I used to work at 3500 Maple in Dallas. I did and still live at 1900 Elm. The bus I used to get to work was the #8. It picked me up a block away, went straight there and dropped me off in front of the building. At quitting time, it would pick me up on the opposite side of the street, go straight home and drop me off in front of my residential building. My wife now works a block away from my old building. However, the 8 no longer serves that area. So she has to get on the #31, which goes through downtown, then curves back up toward Maple and Oak Lawn. A bus ride that took me 10 minutes takes her over 20. Because the route wasn't permanent, the convenience that I had isn't afforded to her.

Except in areas where multiple routes can converge (and even then it is minor one block changes) streetcars don't change routes. Once a track is laid, you can be sure service will be here today and tomorrow, up until we put asphalt over the tracks (here's to hoping we learned out lesson the first time). Except when there has been an expansion, MATA hasn't altered service since it upened in 1989. 20 years later, the route still runs on the same track.

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I thought the idea of the streetcar was to attract high income and presumably intelligent riders. Do they really need steel rails in the street at their IQ level? Most of them will be looking at the route map and schedule on their Blackberry instead.


A mild bus system like Fort Worth can be quite confusing. A larger one like Dallas, Houston or LA can be mind-boggling. To be fair, so can rail systems. New York, London or Shanghai can be confusing as well.

#148 Electricron

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 09:43 PM

From http://oakcliffblog....k-cliff-st.html

The Regional Transportation Council is expected to consider the proposal on Aug. 13. With its blessing, the North Central Texas Council of Governments would seek a $96 million grant for both the Oak Cliff system and a streetcar line in Fort Worth.



#149 tamtagon

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 10:26 PM

Railing the downtowns together (again) makes so much sense it's easy to forget about it, and the biggest reason the $96 grant is likely to be awarded. The TRE has been a successful collaboration between The T and DART scoring a strong level of confidence that the two will be successful with streetcar construction, operation and management.

#150 NThomas

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 07:46 PM

So are the DTD and OCTA lines going to just be a single system or are they just applying together? I'm confused.




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