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TCU: Speaking of the Berry St. Initiative


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#1 AdamB

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 03:38 PM

I came across these renderings, don't know if they have been posted or not. I have no idea what we are looking at though!

Posted Image

Posted Image

Cooper Carry

Has anyone else seen images of this project or know of an anticipated timeframe for the transformation of Berry?

#2 Thurman52

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 05:30 PM

At last weeks zoning meeting TCU asked clean-up some missed tracks in their bid to rezone to MU2.

Also at that meeting they requested approval of the site plan for the first project. A nice 6 story structure 20 ft from Berry St. Surprisingly all white, not TCU yellow brick. Parking Garage in the center and 5 story structure a bit more TCU like along Bowie.

The renderings look nice. 1st floor retail top 5 market rate apartments. I was under the impresssion they were student housing, but that is just the target market, it's open to all.

If anyone could find rendings, I would appreciate it, I searched but to no avail.

#3 mosteijn

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 05:44 PM

Wait, 20 feet from Berry? This better be all sidewalk, with possible landscaping and/or outdoor seating. 20 feet is a bit too far back for my taste. And what's this about ALL white? I'm not too sure that's going to look good, but I went to the architect's website and they've done good things in all they're other projects (no info on this one yet): http://www.ramsa.com

And did the city ever approve the rezoning for the south side of Berry?

Also, was there ever a trolley line on Berry? If not, I'd like to see one run at least from Paschal west down Berry where the majority of this new activity will be. Not only will it add to the urban atmosphere, but I can guarantee if it's decently priced A LOT of Paschalites would take it to retail establishments that are too far to walk to during the 1 hour lunch period. B)

#4 John T Roberts

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 08:49 PM

Thurman, I thought that was on this week's (today) Council Agenda. If it was, we have a chance to catch it on replay on Cable Channel 7. Where did you see the renderings?

#5 Thurman52

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 09:19 PM

Yes, John, it was on last weeks zoning for this week's council meeting. The rep that presented to the zoning board indicated that they need this quick turn around to have the building completed in time to lease for next Fall. I suspect we should see the dirt flying soon.

Johnny, the developer mentioned he envisioned sidewalk cafe's along the sidewalk between the building and Berry. He also noted it will actully be farther once Berry is completed b/c there will be on street parking.

#6 John T Roberts

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 09:23 PM

The older drawings that I had seen had the building on the property line and if there are bulb outs at the intersections and on-street parking, then the property line would actually be further from the lanes of the street than they are now. I checked on both agendas and it appears that we will be able to catch the replays of the Zoning Commission for one month unless they replace the replays with the special meetings and the Council for one week.

Adam, that first drawing shows Cleburne Road and the RR tracks crossing Berry at the angled intersection on the right side.

#7 mosteijn

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 02:52 PM

But if the on street parking is going to be head in, wouldn't that take more space from existing Berry than there is? If they plan to narrow it to 2 lanes, head in parking, and a median, and all they have to work with is 3 lanes and a center turning lane, wouldn't that mean they would take a little bit from the sidewalk (although I assume the sidewalks would be widened anyways)? 6 storeys is going look mighty nice fronting Berry though. B)

Can someone answe my trolley question, though?

#8 AdamB

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 04:05 PM

Anyone ever been to Lawrence, KS?? I would love to see Berry St. turn into a Mass St.

#9 ghughes

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 08:24 PM

The on-street parking is designed to be parallel with either bulb-outs or mouse ears. I like mouse ears because they sound better.

Johnny, I don't think there has ever been a trolley on Berry.

#10 mosteijn

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 09:34 PM

Oh, I always thought it was going to be head in parking. Ni importa, B) ! But that's even more of a reason they should add the trolley-teenagers don't like to parallel park.

#11 John T Roberts

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 09:35 PM

Greg is correct. The trolley line did not run down Berry. The nearest line ran down Fairmount/Willing to Devitt and then ran west on Devitt to Gordon, south on Gordon to W. Biddison St. N. and then west to Belt Junction. Belt Junction is the triangular railroad interchange at Amsco Steel and the old Tandy Wire and Cable Industrial Area between McCart and Granbury Road. The trolley line ended at McCart. It is interesting that in 1920, the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary was served by a trolley line, yet TCU was not. You can still see evidence of these streetcar lines by the wide streets and gentle curves on some of these residential streets that appear this way for no apparent reason. On Willing, you can actually see the cracks in the asphalt pavement that mark the location of the tracks.

Jonny, we need to arrange for you to get your copy of the Antique Maps of Texas CD. If you had it, you could see where the trolley lines were located.

#12 mosteijn

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 02:50 PM

Thanks for the trolley info. I'm sorry I haven't gotten around to setting a time yet, I'll drop an e-mail for you sometime tonight.

Can you imagine what a narrower, tree lined Berry would look like if all of the subsequent projects were around the same height? I think it would have to be renamed Parisian Boulevard at that point. I'm looking forward to more projects, this is hopefully only the beginning. :D

#13 mosteijn

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 12:27 PM

So, any word on the building that's supposed to be built on the parking lot at Waits & Greene? I couldn't find any info on the websites of the people involved, and one of the articles says the lot would be closed by August for preconstruction, yet it's still operating and no work has gone on. Perotti's hasn't even moved yet, I don't think. Do any TCU students have inside info?

#14 ghughes

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 07:42 PM

Johnny (and anyone else interested, of course), TCU projects are on the agenda when the University Neighborhood Alliance (UNA) meets at the DJ Kelly Alumni Center on the TCU Campus at 7:00 p.m. on Monday, October 11. The alumni center is on Stadium Drive, just south of Cantey Street.

The Agenda thus far is as follows:
Update on Bluebonnet Circle Development
Update on Berry Street Redevelopment
Presentations by Candidates for House Seat 97 (Anna Mowery and Nancy Stevens)
Update on TCU development plans and progress
City of Fort Worth 2005 Update to Comprehensive Plan

#15 John T Roberts

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 07:55 PM

Greg, this sounds like something that should be placed on the Calendar.

#16 mosteijn

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Posted 25 September 2004 - 10:50 PM

The Agenda thus far is as follows:
Update on Bluebonnet Circle Development

View Post

Oh yeah, I heard something about the Bluebonnet Circle plan, what type of issues are being discussed about it? Also, if I can't make the meeting, will you post some highlights?

#17 Buck

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 12:20 AM

Maybe there wasn't a streetcar line.

But there was a bus line named the Berry Street Shuttle.

I think it ran from Hemphill to University and back, connecting all the lines that crossed Berry.

So there is a history of frequent public transportation on Berry.

#18 djold1

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 04:22 PM

The trolley line did not run down Berry. The nearest line ran down Fairmount/Willing to Devitt and then ran west on Devitt to Gordon, south on Gordon to W. Biddison St. N. and then west to Belt Junction. Belt Junction is the triangular railroad interchange at Amsco Steel and the old Tandy Wire and Cable Industrial Area between McCart and Granbury Road. The trolley line ended at McCart. It is interesting that in 1920, the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary was served by a trolley line, yet TCU was not.

Actually there was a streetcar car line to TCU in this period. The 1920 FW map does show it. It goes down Forest Park Blvd south to what was Forest, turns west and then onto Forest Park Blvd again. University was not a through street at this time. The line apparently dead-ended in front of the Admin building. A number of the old yearbooks mention the trolley line and Northern Texas Traction advertised in these yearbooks as well.

I have a few freebie copies of Antique Maps of Texas for forum members if they will contact me at electricbooks@juno.com with a name & mailing address.

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Large format reproductions of original antique and vintage Texas & southwestern maps
 


#19 John T Roberts

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Posted 26 September 2004 - 04:29 PM

Pete, do you know when the streetcar line was put in? For those who don't have a copy of the CD, please tell what street was named Forest at that time. This shows my ignorance, but the reason that I stated there wasn't a line is that I couldn't find any maps that showed it. Naturally, I assumed that it didn't exist.

#20 DTCB

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 08:32 AM

While looking at the aerial photos of Berry street I noticed at the SW corner.The intersection of the railroad tracks and the Eastbound lanes of Berry, there is a round slab of cement. ;)
Was there a building or something behind that business that is there now?

#21 EricTCU

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 10:08 AM

So, any word on the building that's supposed to be built on the parking lot at Waits & Greene? I couldn't find any info on the websites of the people involved, and one of the articles says the lot would be closed by August for preconstruction, yet it's still operating and no work has gone on. Perotti's hasn't even moved yet, I don't think. Do any TCU students have inside info?

View Post


I was always assuming the white building with apartments and a parking garage was for that parking lot??? Is that for another site?

Also, I know the empty field on the West side of Stadium @ Berry and the new parking lot on the east side of Stadium @ Berry (former Bellaire Condos) are scheduled for more on-campus apartments in the future.

I also know the 3050 blocks of Odessa, Wabash, Cockrell, & Lubbock are slowly being bought up (including my current residence) for more academic buildings & housing. The goal there is to expand campus all the way to Berry Street from Lubbock to Stadium. Many of the existing homes there are either owned and leased by TCU, have been grazed for parking, or converted into offices.

I have also noticed a couple of TCU watering holes in the University Drive shopping strip are gone! I think the tough part for the expansion is going to be getting rid of Kings Liquor and those businesses right next to the bookstore on Cockrell and Greene.

#22 John T Roberts

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 11:12 AM

While looking at the aerial photos of Berry street I noticed at the SW corner.The intersection of the railroad tracks and the Eastbound lanes of Berry, there is a round slab of cement. ;)
Was there a building or something behind that business that is there now?

View Post


If you are referring to the railroad tracks just east of Berry and 6th Avenue, the round object there was once either a water tower or a water tank. Doug could probably remember better than I can because that was a long time ago when it was there.

#23 mosteijn

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 04:33 PM

I was always assuming the white building with apartments and a parking garage was for that parking lot???  Is that for another site?

View Post

No, it's the same parking lot. The Skiff called it the East Commuter Lot I think...anywho it's still operating, so I'm not sure if they've gotten behind schedule again, but they developer said it would start construction in December so I'll just have to wait and see.

#24 Doug

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 08:47 PM

If this is the circle:
http://www.dfwmaps.c...tures&Zoomby=12
Then it was indeed one of about 5 duplicate water towers in FW. This one was removed in the 60's --I think-- whilst I was in college.

#25 Doug

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Posted 30 September 2004 - 08:58 PM

Another interesting memory (at bottom of linked page) is Fire Station 21 facing Berry on the NE corner of University/Berry. Removed I think also in the 60's.


http://www.fwfd.net/...s/station21.htm

#26 DTCB

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 08:24 AM

Thanks Doug. I have always been fascinated with the Berry St corridor. I spent most of my youth at Travis Ave. Church with lunches in Capps Park.

#27 mosteijn

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 09:48 PM

Another interesting memory (at bottom of linked page) is Fire Station 21 facing Berry on the NE corner of University/Berry.  Removed I think also in the 60's.


http://www.fwfd.net/...s/station21.htm

View Post

Such a pity Berry had to be mutilated during the 60's (or was it 70's?)

I think they should open a case into whether or not it was domestic abuse, the city could use another lawsuit <_<

#28 John T Roberts

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 09:56 PM

It was in the 1970's while I was attending Paschal ('72-'76).

#29 mosteijn

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 09:59 PM

Heh, John, it's kind of ironic that you saw the destruction of what was a great street when you went to Paschal and now I'm seeing it's rebirth during my high school days. <_<

#30 John T Roberts

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 10:00 PM

Yes, it is.

#31 gdvanc

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 10:49 PM

but it's a shame it has taken the better part of a third of a century for the recovery to begin.

#32 John T Roberts

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 10:59 PM

Donnie, the funny thing about the street widening project back in the 70's was that I thought the expansion would destroy the streetscape. I was about Jonny's age at the time. The way that I remember is before I drove, my aunt would pick me up from school on her weekly Friday visits to Fort Worth from Cleburne. I can remember her coming by to pick me up on Berry and I would be on the edge of Paschal's grounds and I would have to dash through the construction to get into the car and do it as fast as possible to keep from delaying traffic.

For those of you who are curious, before Berry was widened, it was paved with brick.

#33 gdvanc

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Posted 01 October 2004 - 11:11 PM

Donnie, the funny thing about the street widening project back in the 70's was that I thought the expansion would destroy the streetscape.  I was about Jonny's age at the time.  The way that I remember is before I drove, my aunt would pick me up from school on her weekly Friday visits to Fort Worth from Cleburne.  I can remember her coming by to pick me up on Berry and I would be on the edge of Paschal's grounds and I would have to dash through the construction to get into the car and do it as fast as possible to keep from delaying traffic.

For those of you who are curious, before Berry was widened, it was paved with brick.

View Post


Perceptive of you at that age to see the potential damage. It seems a rational leap to go from "more traffic" to "more business", but that ignores several parts of the picture.

Thoughtful of you to show concern for the motorists crossing your path. Times have certainly changed. Some people seem to enjoy a sense of power and control by ambling across the street as slowly as possible.

#34 John T Roberts

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 08:38 AM

Things have changed since the 1970's.

Donnie, it is good to have you back posting.

#35 mosteijn

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 11:55 AM

In searching the city's website, I found these small, color renderings:

Bowie St. view
Posted Image

Berry view
Posted Image

I hope the final product for the Berry facade has better windows, the ones in this rendering make it look kind of like a prison.

#36 ghughes

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 05:03 PM

I really hope they are successful at filling the ground floor space with street-friendly retail. Good find on the renderings, Johnny, they are the latest presented at any meetings.

#37 Urbndwlr

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Posted 02 October 2004 - 10:52 PM

Those look good. The Berry facade appears Spanish Colonial, which I like.

Who is the developer? Did someone say Stern is the architect?

#38 normanfd

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Posted 05 October 2004 - 02:26 PM

I think it would be great if the neighborhoods around Berry organized to support restoring the red brick to the street. Historic Camp Bowie Inc. has raised private money for the purpose of helping the city maintain and improve the appearance of Camp Bowie. I'm sure their expertise could be of assistance.

Driving over brick streets encourages people to moderate their speeds which would be helpful when you're trying to encourage pedestrian usage.

Plus, I think Fort Worth looked so much better when many of the city's major thoroughfares were paved in brick when I was young.

#39 ghughes

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Posted 06 October 2004 - 05:15 AM

That's a good idea, normanfd. I'll pass it along to those who are thus engaged. I recall from some renderings that the intersections will have brick or pavers defining crosswalks, but, yes, bricking the entire street would be better.

#40 normanfd

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Posted 08 October 2004 - 01:01 AM

That's a good idea, normanfd. I'll pass it along to those who are thus engaged. I recall from some renderings that the intersections will have brick or pavers defining crosswalks, but, yes, bricking the entire street would be better.

View Post

I suspect the original brick still exists underneath all the subsequent repavings the street has undergone over the decades. Still, I think it should be considered as a long-term goal that perhaps should be accomplished in several small annual phases in order not to break the bank.

Another thought is that I've heard repeatedly during my childhood that the original red brick still exists under the Ridglea portion of Camp Bowie. In a topic on the old forum, I previously advocated without much thought the idea of restoring that section. It wouldn't work, because the red brick roadway was much narrower than what current traffic demands. This idea does work on Berry because the plan is to narrow the street, reduce lanes of traffic, and expand sidewalks to more or less the way the street was when it was still red brick.

It's a shame that the city spent so much money during the period from the 50s to the 70s repaving all the old brick roads that were so ubiquitous in Fort Worth. It's akin to the level of destruction that architects of the same period visited upon the Baker Building and others. If Fort Worth still had all those old red brick streets, the streets would be Fort Worth's signature memory for travellers to the city. Most of the streets in Downtown and the Medical District were brick. Think how cool that would look today along Magnolia, Pennsylvania, Rosedale, Hemphill, Jennings! That would give impetus to restoring the area's historic structures!

Isn't it odd that, just a few years after Downtown Main Street was paved over, the city chose to restore the brick for aesthetic reasons?

At the time, repavings were justified because of the cost of maintaining the brick due to both its labor intensive nature and the closing of the red brick factory in Thurbur. However, the surviving brick streets, such as Camp Bowie and other roads like the original roadway of US 180 between Weatherford and Mineral Wells, which wasn't paved until around 1980 despite higher speed limits and heavier truck traffic, show that these roads are long-lasting and durable.

#41 eshigginbotham

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 09:24 PM

That's a good idea, normanfd. I'll pass it along to those who are thus engaged. I recall from some renderings that the intersections will have brick or pavers defining crosswalks, but, yes, bricking the entire street would be better.

View Post



I have lurked here for a while and saw a discussion on Killerfrogs.com about the new War Memorial at TCU. This is not entirely related to Berry St. Initiative but this is what TCU is doing on University.

Killerfrogs Discussion

"The east and west sides of the plaza will be connected across University Drive with brick paving intended to slow traffic and offer a clear crosswalk for pedestrians."-From http://www.dfw.com/m...al/10039822.htm
GO FROGS!!!

#42 mosteijn

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 09:40 PM

I was going to post the article somewhere...I just couldn't figure out where. This seems appropriate enough. From what I read in the paper, it sounds great! I'm still trying to picture what existing "columns" they're talking about, but I like the idea of bricking the pedestrian walkway across University.

#43 eshigginbotham

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 09:49 PM

I was going to post the article somewhere...I just couldn't figure out where. This seems appropriate enough. From what I read in the paper, it sounds great! I'm still trying to picture what existing "columns" they're talking about, but I like the idea of bricking the pedestrian walkway across University.

View Post


These columns in front of Reed Hall are on the west side of the crosswalk without the traffic light.

http://portfolio.tcu...with_tulips.jpg
GO FROGS!!!

#44 John T Roberts

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 10:43 PM

Welcome, TCUTrumpet Guy.

Jonny, the pictures place the columns. I'm surprised that you haven't noticed them before. This last weekend, I was actually admiring them as I was walking down University Drive.

#45 mosteijn

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 11:05 PM

I was going to post the article somewhere...I just couldn't figure out where. This seems appropriate enough. From what I read in the paper, it sounds great! I'm still trying to picture what existing "columns" they're talking about, but I like the idea of bricking the pedestrian walkway across University.

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These columns in front of Reed Hall are on the west side of the crosswalk without the traffic light.

http://portfolio.tcu...with_tulips.jpg

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Oh THOSE columns! The article confused me into thinking they ran perpendicular all the way to the Hall from University...yes I have seen those columns before but never looked at them in detail. Thanks for the picture, trumpet (don't mind if I call you that, do ya?)!

#46 DTCB

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 05:22 PM

Here is another piece of information on Berry St., but it has a Hemphill address!
http://cinematreasur...g/theater/7805/

#47 John T Roberts

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 06:33 PM

The Berry Theater will be a part of the Urban Village at Berry and Hemphill. This is a separate project from the Urban Village and redevelopment of Berry in the TCU Area. I realize the two projects are very close to each other, but I think they are considered as separate villages and projects.

#48 mosteijn

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 08:27 PM

I think the Berry Theater, and to an extent, Stage West, are perfect candidates to be converted into arthouse/indy film theaters. They're small, historic, located in areas with VERY promising urban futures, and have virtually no competition anywhere near either theater.

#49 RD Milhollin

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 08:34 PM

The rumor mill says that Stage West (the old TCU Theater) will be converted to a club.

Pup :rolleyes:

#50 John T Roberts

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Posted 02 November 2004 - 08:44 PM

Pup, they're already accepting applications. It appears it will be some type of club.




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