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GOODBYE WILL ROGERS!?????


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#1 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 06:13 AM

What a shame. I hope they at least keep the tower. Of course, with the city not investing any money in its upkeep, it, too, would eventually become "unsafe" (like brick smokestacks often do!) and demolition would be the "only" option.

http://www.dfw.com/m...an/16551679.htm

Who will join me in lying down in front of the bulldozers?
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For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




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#2 jmilam

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 06:56 AM

Yes, I would imagine they would keep the tower. I agree, the tower is a well loved landmark. I would hate to see it go as you can view it from so many areas of the city. I really like the new Cowgirl Hall of Fame, and I would think, any new facility would follow those design elements.

I think we have to wait to pass judgement until the project plans are proposed. The Bass's haven't done anything I know of that has not greatly benefited Fort Worth. They also seem to include many other opinions in the process as well.

#3 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 07:41 AM

QUOTE(jmilam @ Feb 6 2007, 08:56 AM) View Post

Yes, I would imagine they would keep the tower. I agree, the tower is a well loved landmark. I would hate to see it go as you can view it from so many areas of the city. I really like the new Cowgirl Hall of Fame, and I would think, any new facility would follow those design elements.

I think we have to wait to pass judgement until the project plans are proposed. The Bass's haven't done anything I know of that has not greatly benefited Fort Worth. They also seem to include many other opinions in the process as well.


First, it is outrageous and COMPLETELY unacceptable that the auditorium or coliseum be demolished.

Second, if you don't won't to see the Will Rogers demolished madgo.gif , you don't wait until the plans are proposed.

NEVER wait until the plans are proposed!

By then it is a "done deal" and it will be a "oh, gosh, gee, it will cost money to go back and re-think the plan" situation. Additionally, anyone opposed to the plan, especially historic preservationists, will be branded "reactionaries," "obstructionists," "anti-progressives," "trouble-makers," or WORSE!

Interested parties should be included in the planning process at the BEGINNING!

This is my last post as "kip.wright." I shall henceforth be known as "Fire-Eater."
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History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#4 seurto

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 07:46 AM

OMG - That has me going in all sorts of directions. I guess I knew it was a possibility but never thought it would actually happen.

My first thought is NOOOOOOOOO; I love WR, I love the style, the look, the auditorium, etc., etc. It is such an icon. However, also having gone to the rodeo this year for the first time in many, many years, I can also say that it just isn't as big as I remembered it being. There probably could be many, many improvements made.

But SURELY they would keep the look consistent; maybe gut it and re-do?? Don't you think?? I'd hate to see it look modern or terribly different. And they would HAVE to keep the tower!! You don't think they would change it up too much!?!?!?

oooooo wacko.gif

#5 JulieM

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 08:00 AM

Hiya Kip!

I will be there right in front of the bulldozers. Shoot, I learned to ice skate there. I watched the Fort Worth Texans play hockey there. I graduated there...I tell my kids I had to skate in, but they don't believe me.

I'm hoping that they will preserve some of it.

#6 grow_smart

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 08:10 AM

QUOTE(Kip.Wright @ Feb 6 2007, 06:13 AM) View Post

What a shame. I hope they at least keep the tower. Of course, with the city not investing any money in its upkeep, it, too, would eventually become "unsafe" (like brick smokestacks often do!) and demolition would be the "only" option.

http://www.dfw.com/m...an/16551679.htm

Who will join me in lying down in front of the bulldozers?


No where in the article does it say the old arena will be torn down. I thought the new arena was going to go south of Harley, just east of Montgomery.

If it were me, I would find out all the facts before I laid down in front of any heavy machinery.

#7 jmilam

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 08:15 AM

That would make a lot of sense. As the old one could be used for smaller venues...and no one would be flattened in the process...

#8 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 08:36 AM

QUOTE(seurto @ Feb 6 2007, 09:46 AM) View Post

But SURELY they would keep the look consistent; maybe gut it and re-do?? Don't you think?? I'd hate to see it look modern or terribly different. And they would HAVE to keep the tower!! You don't think they would change it up too much!?!?!?

oooooo wacko.gif


Fire-Eater says:

"SURELY" nothing! Nothing is for sure. Who knows? I don't trust any of them with my city's historic resources!

I wouldn't put it past them to level the whole joint. Why else would the city have neglected to do the obvious: designate the Will Rogers as a protected historic property under the city's preservation ordinance??? The whole stinkin' complex is UNPROTECTED -- Get it?

WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#9 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 08:42 AM

QUOTE(grow_smart @ Feb 6 2007, 10:10 AM) View Post

No where in the article does it say the old arena will be torn down. I thought the new arena was going to go south of Harley, just east of Montgomery.



GROW SMART! Read between the lines!

As a preservationist for the past 20 years, I've learned that you MUST think ahead of The Man, because, actually, he's already there! The Man has the Money and, especially if he's done a lot of "good" for the city, NO ONE dares to oppose him (city council, take heed!)

"And the Man doth look down upon His Creation and it looks Good to Him. The Man giveth and the Man taketh away. He sayeth "demolish," and lo it be done!" Fire-Eater speaks.

WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#10 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 08:52 AM

QUOTE(grow_smart @ Feb 6 2007, 10:10 AM) View Post


If it were me, I would find out all the facts before I laid down in front of any heavy machinery.



Fire-Eater speaketh:

If the bulldozers are there, it's time to lie down. If you go out to try and find facts at that point, it'll be rubble when you return.

I'm all for fact finding, but I expect the worse.

Let's just say, for naivete's sake, that they plan to build anew and they will leave the Will Rogers alone. That's not good because they need to spend some money on the Will Rogers for maintenance. Otherwise it will become "demolition by neglect." The article talks about what poor condition it's in -- WELL, the city needs to FIX IT! (I guess they're saving their money for the new coliseum!)

WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#11 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 08:57 AM

Old News, but relevant: http://www.fwweekly....sp?article=3343
WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#12 seurto

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 10:15 AM

In all honesty, I think Fire-Eater may have some valid worries. No doubt looking at the situation from a strictly economic standpoint, it probably would be much less expensive and way more useful to tear the whole thing down and start from scratch. We can only hope, and if necessary, lie down in front of bulldozers, to prevent anything catastrophic from happening. I do think improvements need to be made and if they could build a new arena off Harley and leave the original WRC as is, certainly that is the best idea; however, at this point I'm not opposed to internal improvements (tastefully done) if those can be done without compromising the integrity, look, feel, history of the building. I can guarantee that if the plan consists of leveling the ground to put up a convention center space ship, I'll be lying there waiting for the bulldozers!

#13 Keller Pirate

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 10:18 AM

The FW Weekly article makes it clear the new coliseum is going no where near Will Rogers. It is interesting that several things in the Weekly article have come to pass since it was written. Such as the Cattle Raisers Museum closing to move into a rebuilt Museum of Science and Industry.

Also interesting, in the Weekly article they refer to Will Rogers as "Inadequate and Outdated." In the S-T they say "Dilapidated and in Disrepair." The S-T reads like an opinion piece rather than reporting. Of course I consider most everything the S-T has in it these days to be opinion. I don't think they employ any reporters.

The new coliseum will not be built on top of Will Rogers and I hope Will Rogers will remain as just a smaller venue for events while the big stuff moves to the new arena. Fire Eater, you should get the Will Rogers Coliseum on the list of historic buildings. I think you will have plenty of time before anything is built to replace it.


#14 JBB

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 12:39 PM

I think the brakes need to be tapped just a tad. There has been no proposal whatsoever to build a new arena in place of a demolished WR facility. I know Fort Worth wouldn't exactly receive an A+ for preservation, but we're talking about publicly owned property here. Is anybody really, deep down, worried about this? Can you imagine the uproar?

#15 JulieM

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 02:52 PM

Does this not have historic status?

#16 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 03:28 PM

QUOTE(JulieM @ Feb 6 2007, 04:52 PM) View Post

Does this not have historic status?


Only in our minds. It has no legal or regulatory status as a "historic" building. Unless there's federal involvement.
WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#17 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 03:32 PM

QUOTE(JBB @ Feb 6 2007, 02:39 PM) View Post

I think the brakes need to be tapped just a tad. There has been no proposal whatsoever to build a new arena in place of a demolished WR facility. I know Fort Worth wouldn't exactly receive an A+ for preservation, but we're talking about publicly owned property here. Is anybody really, deep down, worried about this? Can you imagine the uproar?


Lookee here, now. You can look all across America -- I'll find you some links in a minute -- to absolute TREASURES; treasures loved and adored by people like you and me; that "had" to be demolished because (sniff) it just didn't fit in with the developer's [twisted] vision. I'm thinking specifically in the genre of sporting venues . . .
WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#18 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 04:00 PM

QUOTE(Fire-Eater @ Feb 6 2007, 05:32 PM) View Post


Lookee here, now. You can look all across America -- I'll find you some links in a minute -- to absolute TREASURES; treasures loved and adored by people like you and me; that "had" to be demolished because (sniff) it just didn't fit in with the developer's [twisted] vision. I'm thinking specifically in the genre of sporting venues . . .


Googling “demolished landmark” pulls up a lot of stuff! Here's a sampling . . .

Movie theaters: http://cinematreasures.org/polls/16/
Stadiums: http://www.recentpas...enas/index.html
Demolished Stadium Briefs: http://www.joshbach....products_id=394
In Cleveland: http://www.stadiumso...landStadium.htm
In New York City: http://query.nytimes...756C0A9649C8B63

Of course, one man’s treasure is another man’s parking lot.

Success stories in Chicago:
http://www.suntimes....rwell05.article
http://www.nationalt...2007/011807.htm

For Art Deco in San Francisco, public outcry can help, but is no sure fix:
http://www.jewishsf....splaystory.html

The problem with Fort Worth is that the historic preservation ordinance is not as strong as the ones in New York, San Francisco, Chicago, New Orleans or Savannah.

Yankee Stadium is slated for partial demolition as they erect a new one next door.

Bottom Line: "Don't Hesitate . . . DESIGNATE!" But the City Council won't do it . . . and the Will Rogers is city property. Q: What does that tell you? A: Don't trust the city with your historic landmarks!!!



WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#19 JBB

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 04:35 PM

It does have historic designation on the state level, I believe. How do you know the city won't give it their own historical designation? (I'm not being contrarian or antagonistic, I'm just curious.)

#20 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 04:43 PM

QUOTE(JBB @ Feb 6 2007, 06:35 PM) View Post

It does have historic designation on the state level, I believe. How do you know the city won't give it their own historical designation? (I'm not being contrarian or antagonistic, I'm just curious.)



Of course not! I invite any and all queries.

The city council has designated remarkably few local landmarks and (especially) historic districts. Check the list (they have one, and it's a short one.)

State designation, if it has it, will afford no protection from locally authorized/official vandalism.
WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#21 JBB

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 04:50 PM

My memory is fuzzy, but don't requests for historical designation have to come from the owners? What is their record on turning down requests? If people aren't asking, then they're not to blame.

#22 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 04:52 PM

QUOTE(Fire-Eater @ Feb 6 2007, 06:43 PM) View Post




The city council has designated remarkably few local landmarks and (especially) historic districts. Check the list (they have one, and it's a short one.)





The City Council, being the political animal it is, is cautious about designating any landmarks or historic districts, since it would hate to offend developers, property owners, or other monied interests. MUSTN'T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS!!!

I'm sure (?) that they haven't designated the Will Rogers so that they can keep their option$ open.


Guess what? There's only a "demolition delay" on the Kimball Museum. They can tear it down after submitting a request and waiting 90(?) days. Or is it 60 days? Either way, it's the same result: Rubble.

People say, "OH, they'd NEVER tear THAT down!" Oh yeah? Well, then how about them donating a facade easement to Historic Fort Worth!?!
WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#23 Keller Pirate

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 04:55 PM

From Fire Eaters FW Weekly story.

An earlier price tag of $120 million for the new arena is outdated, Watt said, but didn’t offer another estimate. He said no architectural renderings of the proposed facility have been done, but that it would occupy a 150-foot by 250-foot area similar to the existing Will Rogers Coliseum while offering more than twice as many seats. The plan is to build it on the current site of the maintenance yard and part of the former Ross Heights subdivision property now paved for parking near the corner of Montgomery and Harley.

As I said the rest of the Weeklys info has come to pass, so I think by spelling out the location, no where near WR, is probably good too.

Is Will Rogers owned by the city?

#24 JBB

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 05:22 PM

Yes, it is.

#25 grow_smart

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 09:55 PM

QUOTE(Fire-Eater @ Feb 6 2007, 04:00 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Fire-Eater @ Feb 6 2007, 05:32 PM) View Post


Lookee here, now. You can look all across America -- I'll find you some links in a minute -- to absolute TREASURES; treasures loved and adored by people like you and me; that "had" to be demolished because (sniff) it just didn't fit in with the developer's [twisted] vision. I'm thinking specifically in the genre of sporting venues . . .


Googling “demolished landmark” pulls up a lot of stuff! Here's a sampling . . .

Movie theaters: http://cinematreasures.org/polls/16/
Stadiums: http://www.recentpas...enas/index.html
Demolished Stadium Briefs: http://www.joshbach....products_id=394
In Cleveland: http://www.stadiumso...landStadium.htm
In New York City: http://query.nytimes...756C0A9649C8B63

Of course, one man’s treasure is another man’s parking lot.

Success stories in Chicago:
http://www.suntimes....rwell05.article
http://www.nationalt...2007/011807.htm

For Art Deco in San Francisco, public outcry can help, but is no sure fix:
http://www.jewishsf....splaystory.html

The problem with Fort Worth is that the historic preservation ordinance is not as strong as the ones in New York, San Francisco, Chicago, New Orleans or Savannah.

Yankee Stadium is slated for partial demolition as they erect a new one next door.

Bottom Line: "Don't Hesitate . . . DESIGNATE!" But the City Council won't do it . . . and the Will Rogers is city property. Q: What does that tell you? A: Don't trust the city with your historic landmarks!!!



Wow - I love the passion for saving historic structures. If only everyone cared as much as you do about something the world would be a better place.

I guess my reading between the lines skills need to be improved.

Side thought - can you provide me a definition of what makes something historic or worthy of preservation, besides it just being old? I'm guessing I could google and find something, but I want to know how to classify something. For example, a shanty town built in 1930 during the depression doesn't qualify, does it? But obviously, according to your definition, an arena does. So where do we draw the line?

#26 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 10:07 PM

QUOTE(grow_smart @ Feb 6 2007, 11:55 PM) View Post

Side thought - can you provide me a definition of what makes something historic or worthy of preservation, besides it just being old? I'm guessing I could google and find something, but I want to know how to classify something. For example, a shanty town built in 1930 during the depression doesn't qualify, does it? But obviously, according to your definition, an arena does. So where do we draw the line?


Shanty town? Probably none still stand. But a mill village built around a factory might qualify as historical. For example, Cabbage Town, near downtown ATL, was built around a cotton textile mill and it's considered historic.

City of Fort Worth's
Criteria for Designation:
1. Distinctive in character, interest or value; strongly exemplifies the cultural, economic, social, ethnic or historical heritage of the City of Fort Worth, State of Texas or the United States
2. An important example of a particular architectural type or specimen in the City of Fort Worth
3. Has been identified as the work of an important architect or master builder whose individual work has contributed to the development of the City of Fort Worth
4. Embodies elements of architectural design, detail, materials, or craftsmanship, which represent a significant architectural innovation
5. Bears an important and significant relationship to other distinctive structures, sites, or areas, either as an important collection of properties or architectural style or craftsmanship with few intrusions, or by contributing to the overall character of the area according to the plan based on architectural, historic or cultural motif
6. Possesses significant archeological value that has produced or is likely to produce data affecting theories of historic or prehistoric interest
7. Is the site of a significant historic event
8. Is identified with a person or persons who significantly contributed to the culture and development of the City of Fort Worth, State of Texas or the United States
9. Represents a resource, whether natural or man-made, which greatly contributes to the character or image of a defined neighborhood or community area
10. Is designated as a Recorded Texas Landmark or State Archeological Landmark, or is included on the National Register of Historic Places

WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#27 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 10:11 PM

QUOTE(Fire-Eater @ Feb 7 2007, 12:07 AM) View Post

QUOTE(grow_smart @ Feb 6 2007, 11:55 PM) View Post

Side thought - can you provide me a definition of what makes something historic or worthy of preservation, besides it just being old? I'm guessing I could google and find something, but I want to know how to classify something. For example, a shanty town built in 1930 during the depression doesn't qualify, does it? But obviously, according to your definition, an arena does. So where do we draw the line?


Shanty town? Probably none still stand. But a mill village built around a factory might qualify as historical. For example, Cabbage Town, near downtown ATL, was built around a cotton textile mill and it's considered historic.

City of Fort Worth's
Criteria for Designation:
1. Distinctive in character, interest or value; strongly exemplifies the cultural, economic, social, ethnic or historical heritage of the City of Fort Worth, State of Texas or the United States
2. An important example of a particular architectural type or specimen in the City of Fort Worth
3. Has been identified as the work of an important architect or master builder whose individual work has contributed to the development of the City of Fort Worth
4. Embodies elements of architectural design, detail, materials, or craftsmanship, which represent a significant architectural innovation
5. Bears an important and significant relationship to other distinctive structures, sites, or areas, either as an important collection of properties or architectural style or craftsmanship with few intrusions, or by contributing to the overall character of the area according to the plan based on architectural, historic or cultural motif
6. Possesses significant archeological value that has produced or is likely to produce data affecting theories of historic or prehistoric interest
7. Is the site of a significant historic event
8. Is identified with a person or persons who significantly contributed to the culture and development of the City of Fort Worth, State of Texas or the United States
9. Represents a resource, whether natural or man-made, which greatly contributes to the character or image of a defined neighborhood or community area
10. Is designated as a Recorded Texas Landmark or State Archeological Landmark, or is included on the National Register of Historic Places


For Federal Guidelines, check the National Register of Historic Places (NRHP) and it's "Criteria of Evaluation."

Note: if you own a National Historic Landmark [i][u]you can demolish it tomorrow if it is not LOCALLY protected and you don't involve the feds. NRHP designation only protects properties from "Federal Undertakings," such as permitting or grant money!

WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#28 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 10:16 PM

State designation don't do squat neither!

It's gotta be local, because historic designations and districts are a type of zoning, which, under most (if not all) state constitutions is a local power only.

[I only know this because I took a Historic Preservation Law class in college! Whoda thunk!?!]
WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#29 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 10:23 PM

QUOTE(grow_smart @ Feb 6 2007, 11:55 PM) View Post


Wow - I love the passion for saving historic structures. If only everyone cared as much as you do about something the world would be a better place.



Check out Charleston, Savannah, New Orleans, Chicago, San Francisco, New York -- these cities have SERIOUS historic preservation ordinances, and it makes a HUGE difference (architecturally speaking!) Fort Worth has a good one, but the City Council, which has the power, REFUSES to designate properties.

Why do Americans go to Europe for vacation? They may or may not realize it, but it's for the ARCHITECTURE, which Europe does a great job of preserving (when its not busy blowing it up in a World War.)
WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#30 JBB

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 10:26 PM

You earlier cited NYC as an example of a city demolishing landmarks and now you're praising them for their preservation efforts?

#31 John T Roberts

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 11:15 PM

Fire-Eater is right on everything he has posted. I've hinted on this forum several times for the members to do the research to find out about these things. I thought that if someone researching discovered that our architectural "historic" treasures in this city are not recognized as legally "historic", it might occur to them that things need to be changed.

Granted, the articles do not say that Will Rogers will be torn down. The articles do state the new arena will be built to the south of Harley Street. However, just look at the condition of other public buildings and you might think that Fire-Eater could be right. After the events are not held at Will Rogers, there may be no money put into the building for maintenance and repairs.

Listing on the National Register or as a Recorded Texas Historic Landmark does not legally protect buildings. Only local zoning ordinances can legally protect structures from demolition by neglect or actual demolition.

The local designation of Demolition Delay can keep a building in place for up to 180 days. The ordinance also requires a meeting with "interested parties" to see if there are alternatives to demolition. This meeting is only required to be held within the 180 days. If someone is wondering about the point when the clock starts ticking, it is the date of the filing of the Demolition Permit. Depending on city schedules, it could be almost two months before the case goes to the Historic and Cultural Landmarks Commission. Most often, the time frame is less, but it all depends on filing dates, agenda deadline dates, and actual meeting dates.

Let's get specifically to Will Rogers. If you apply the criteria to this building it will meet the following and the reasons in brief:
  • 1. Building is distinctive in character; the tile murals on the front facade are unique to the complex; the complex has played a role in Fort Worth's cultural, economic, social, and historical heritage by hosting the Stock Show and before that, the livestock exposition for the 1936 Texas Centennial.
  • 2. Will Rogers is one of the city's finest examples of Zig-Zag Moderne Architecture (Art Deco).
  • 3. Wyatt C. Hedrick was the architect and Herbert M. Hinckley was the Structural Engineer.
  • 4. First building designed with arched trusses joining at a ridge in the center; First completely column free domed structure.
  • 5. Cultural District and Art Deco Architecture
  • 7. 1936 Livestock Exposition for the Texas Centennial; Stock Show and Rodeo
  • 8. Amon G. Carter; Wyatt C. Hedrick
  • 9. Cultural District thematic group of buildings in the immediate area; Art Deco thematic group of buildings in the city.
  • 10. Is already designated a Recorded Texas Historic Landmark.

As you can see, the Will Rogers Auditorium, Coliseum, and Pioneer Tower meet 9 of the 10 criteria for designation as a City of Fort Worth Landmark. This means that it would more that qualify to be designated as a Highly Significant Endangered Landmark, the city's highest level of historic designation. I could think of only one or two other buildings in the city that could meet 9 of 10 criteria.

Now a little bit on ownership. The City of Fort Worth owns the property. According to the Historic Preservation section of the Zoning Ordinance, only the property owner, the City Manager, the City Council, or the Landmarks Commission may nominate a structure for designation. After nomination, the case must be heard before the Landmarks Commission, the Zoning Board, and the City Council before it can be designated. As you can see here, all steps of the process belong to the City of Fort Worth.

This is an excellent example of why our next forum meeting is very important. If you attend, you will be able to learn more about preservation and how the citizens can change thing in the city.

Finally one more teaser -- many of our "historic" public schools also do not have any local historic designations! If you think we need to get Arlington Heights High School, Polytechnic High, and other historic schools designated, talk to your school board member! The one good thing about the schools is that a few have been locally designated and several more lie with locally designated historic districts, so the FWISD is doing a little better than the City of Fort Worth.

#32 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 11:29 PM

QUOTE(JBB @ Feb 7 2007, 12:26 AM) View Post

You earlier cited NYC as an example of a city demolishing landmarks and now you're praising them for their preservation efforts?


I don't think I'm being inconsistent:

I posted one article about a landmark being demolished in NYC. It was a designated landmark. There was some controversy about it because it appears that the developer & landmarks commission didn't follow proper procedures.

I praised New York's preservation ordinance because it actually has some teeth to it. They're somewhat serious about preserving their historic architecture.

And the City of New York actually DESIGNATES properties.

Heck, the City of Fort Worth won't even designate properties it owns!
WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#33 Willy1

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 12:25 AM

When I was in college, one of the toughest classes I ever took was a Philosophy class. The reason it was so hard was because the concepts were so difficult to grasp and because there were no right or wrong answers. We were graded on our pro or con arguments and the way we presented our supporting arguments for whatever stance we took on a subject. This whole Will Rogers thing reminds me of one of the exam questions we had:

If you buy a row boat made of nothing but wood and nails, and over 10 years each nail and each board has to be replaced because of rot and rust respectively... At the end of 10 years, after all the original parts have been replaced, is it the same row boat you bought, or is it a different row boat than the one you purchased 10 years earlier?

I believe that if the Basses tear down the historic WRMC and replace it with a new one, Fort Worth with no longer be the same city. I hope they realize that progress is good, but not if it cost you your soul. WRMC is part of the soul of our fine city. To me, tearing down WR is just as bad as tearing down the Courthouse, The Kimble, or wiping out the Stock Yards.

There are a lot of treasures in this city that would be horrible losses if torn down... But, tearing down WRMC changes the fabric of the Cultural District in a way that cannot be recreated.

The Bass Family has always kept FW's best interest in mind and I've never really seen them do anything that wasn't in the best interest of FW. I have faith they will build a new arena, but I also have faith they will preserve the historical flavor of the Cultural District. WRMC is the heart of the Cultural District. Without it, the CULTURAL District is no longer "cultural". If the Bass family tears down this beloved landmark, they run the risk of also destroying the legacy their family has built in this city. I will be SHOCKED if they do tear it down.

#34 seurto

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 08:18 AM

QUOTE(John T Roberts @ Feb 7 2007, 01:15 AM) View Post


This is an excellent example of why our next forum meeting is very important. If you attend, you will be able to learn more about preservation and how the citizens can change thing in the city.

Finally one more teaser -- many of our "historic" public schools also do not have any local historic designations! If you think we need to get Arlington Heights High School, Polytechnic High, and other historic schools designated, talk to your school board member! The one good thing about the schools is that a few have been locally designated and several more lie with locally designated historic districts, so the FWISD is doing a little better than the City of Fort Worth.


This is gonna be one Heck of a Forum meeting!! We might be there all night figuring things out!! biggrin.gif I can't wait.

#35 Buck

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 11:12 AM

It's irresponsible to throw Will Rogers out as a straw man just to stir up this board about historic designations.

Will Rogers is not going anywhere. The arena plans also call for rehabbing Will Rogers and using it the same way the Justin Arena is used.

The reason we don't designate city properties as historic is because we already control their future through our elected officials.

Historic designations protect private property on behalf of the public. There is no need to protect the public from the public.

I think this entire thread is a lamentable misuse of the board.



#36 Fire-Eater

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 01:35 PM

Dear Buck,

Am I irresponsible? Does this historic complex have ANY protection whatsoever? I believe the CITY is "irresponsible" by not protecting our architectural heritage. People need to know that this city is remiss in designating properties! Based upon what I've read, this board NEEDS to get stirred up! Folks just sittin' 'round chattin' 'bout history and architecture while it's all coming down around them.

"Will Rogers is not going anywhere." Can you guarantee that? Have you seen the plans? Might the plans change? Who's to say that the city won't, through lack of funding, let it deteriorate so that it then has to be demolished "for public safety." Haven't you read the various assessments of its current condition??? When rehab time comes along might the city budget not have enough for the rehab and decide to put that off for another decade and just build the new arena? Will the project be completed with a combination of private and public funds? Who would then be the decision-maker in the planning process? I'm glad all your questions have been answered, because I have a lot.

I've been in the business for twenty years, and I've seen a lot of underhanded, sneaky stuff go on at the expense of historic properties.

If you have access to the plans, I would love to take a look. Is it all a done deal? Or is it just a draft? Would you please provide me with a copy? Whose plan is it? The city's? If it's a draft, might it change? What happens if they don't get all the land they need?

"The reason we don't designate city properties as historic is because we already control their future through our elected officials." Do you really believe you have control over your elected officials? Sure, at election time, but what about in between? Do you really trust the city council to do the honorable and just thing for historic preservation? I'm sorry; I love everybody like Jesus told me to do, but I have a healthy mistrust of all elected officials, ESPECIALLY when it comes to historic preservation!!! I congratulate you on your trust in government.

"Historic designations protect private property on behalf of the public. There is no need to protect the public from the public." So you don't believe there's a need to designate city properties? I guess you don't believe in congressional oversight, either. You also trust Tarrant County College to protect our architectural and landscape heritage??? (Hey, we need a thread on THEM!) Goodness, I believe a bicameral house and Checks & Balances are good things. Buck, you have more trust in elected officials than they have in each other.

This thread is a "lamentable" use of this board? No. I disagree. What I think is lamentable is the state of historic preservation in this city (holy cow, I've watched the West Side gradually demolished over the past five years--and there's more to come [or "go," as the case may be]!) Maybe you're not interested in historic preservation, in which case your opinion makes sense to me (except for the bit about trust in elected officials).

When a nice building gets torn down, people say, "Gee, what a shame . . . but, hey, that's progress . . . there's nothing we could do about it." I say those people are wrong: there IS something they can do about it! Instead of sitting back and trusting their elected officials to do the right thing, they should stand-up and hold the government accountable.

They need to look their city council representative in the eye and say, "Designate -- Don't hesitate!"

There's been too much hesitation in the past decade, and much has been lost.
conf.gif

WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#37 Redshirt

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 03:25 PM

So does this mean that there will be no further use for the "flying saucer" end of the convention center if this thing is to be so massive that it will cover so many events?

#38 Fire-Eater

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 04:01 PM

QUOTE(Redshirt @ Feb 7 2007, 05:25 PM) View Post

So does this mean that there will be no further use for the "flying saucer" end of the convention center if this thing is to be so massive that it will cover so many events?


I think they want to tear-down the Mother Ship. I think that's part of the phased construction plan. Will they replace it with another arena space? Would that create a glut for sporting venues in the Fort Worth market???


WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#39 jmilam

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 04:01 PM

QUOTE(Fire-Eater @ Feb 7 2007, 01:35 PM) View Post

There's been too much hesitation in the past decade, and much has been lost.
conf.gif


Can you give us some pictures and examples of Fort Worth properties that you are talking about? That might help...

#40 JBB

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 04:06 PM

QUOTE(Fire-Eater @ Feb 7 2007, 04:01 PM) View Post

I think they want to tear-down the Mother Ship. I think that's part of the phased construction plan. Will they replace it with another arena space? Would that create a glut for sporting venues in the Fort Worth market???


The plan is to tear down the "saucer", tear down the east side of the old exhibit space, straighten out Commerce, and build more exhibit and meeting space on the site of the arena. I don't believe that plan was funded with the most recent expansions at the CC.

#41 Fire-Eater

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 04:32 PM

QUOTE(jmilam @ Feb 7 2007, 06:01 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Fire-Eater @ Feb 7 2007, 01:35 PM) View Post

There's been too much hesitation in the past decade, and much has been lost.
conf.gif


Can you give us some pictures and examples of Fort Worth properties that you are talking about? That might help...


I can't give you pictures because they're gone.

Buttload of tear-downs in the North Hi-Mount area, for starters. I did a windshield survey February 2005. It's lost viability as a historic district in the last two years. Tear downs are rampant around the country club, and the people in Monticello have even raised a concerned eyebrow as their enclave is infected with the terminal disease.

Of course, there was the illegal demolition of the Seventh Street Theater. I'm sure the city council severely penalized the perpetrators (NOT!) Of course, to be fair, Planning Department screwed that one up: OOPS, the developer "didn't get the fax!" Heck, the bulldozer operator just laughed at John Boswell and almost ran him over.

How about all that stuff around the Courthouse? Workman's Hotel was probably one of Fort Worth's oldest historic commercial properties. It was destroyed without even a yawn.

Blockclearing on the Bluffs -- John Roberts and I surveyed the area in Summer of 2005 -- there COULD'VE been a historic district up around the cemetery, and they still may salvage something.

A lot of times something gets gone and you say, "hmmmmm, wasn't there something there?" And then you remember and say, "Omigosh!"

How about the hideous demolition by neglect of that very nice building across for the Firestone?

Look around -- the historic fabric of Fort Worth is eroding with each passing day (well, month).


WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#42 jmilam

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 04:48 PM

QUOTE(Fire-Eater @ Feb 7 2007, 04:32 PM) View Post

QUOTE(jmilam @ Feb 7 2007, 06:01 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Fire-Eater @ Feb 7 2007, 01:35 PM) View Post

There's been too much hesitation in the past decade, and much has been lost.
conf.gif


Can you give us some pictures and examples of Fort Worth properties that you are talking about? That might help...


I can't give you pictures because they're gone.

Buttload of tear-downs in the North Hi-Mount area, for starters. I did a windshield survey February 2005. It's lost viability as a historic district in the last two years. Tear downs are rampant around the country club, and the people in Monticello have even raised a concerned eyebrow as their enclave is infected with the terminal disease.

Of course, there was the illegal demolition of the Seventh Street Theater. I'm sure the city council severely penalized the perpetrators (NOT!) Of course, to be fair, Planning Department screwed that one up: OOPS, the developer "didn't get the fax!" Heck, the bulldozer operator just laughed at John Boswell and almost ran him over.

How about all that stuff around the Courthouse? Workman's Hotel was probably one of Fort Worth's oldest historic commercial properties. It was destroyed without even a yawn.

Blockclearing on the Bluffs -- John Roberts and I surveyed the area in Summer of 2005 -- there COULD'VE been a historic district up around the cemetery, and they still may salvage something.

A lot of times something gets gone and you say, "hmmmmm, wasn't there something there?" And then you remember and say, "Omigosh!"

How about the hideous demolition by neglect of that very nice building across for the Firestone?

Look around -- the historic fabric of Fort Worth is eroding with each passing day (well, month).


I think the historic preservation is important, but some of it is just old crappy buildings. It is very subjective. I agree with you about the Will Rogers site, but I think some of the other comments are correct, there would be an uproar if it was proposed, and that is what I think you are trying to get started? To save buildings, just because they are old, would not be something that would gather a lot of support...IMHO...

By the way, I personally think the westside looks better every day....


#43 RD Milhollin

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 07:46 PM

QUOTE(Fire-Eater @ Feb 7 2007, 04:32 PM) View Post


How about the hideous demolition by neglect of that very nice building across for the Firestone?



OK, now you got my attention. Something needs to be done about that. If the owner refuses or is unable to stop the decay, at least by constructing a roof, the building should be sold to someone who will do what is needed. The current owner should be brought before a judge. What sort of ordinance needs to be instituted for that to happen?

#44 Fort Worthology

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 08:32 PM

QUOTE(jmilam @ Feb 7 2007, 04:48 PM) View Post

Can you give us some pictures and examples of Fort Worth properties that you are talking about? That might help...


Fort Worth has lost many things over the years, many of which should have been protected…

Workman's Hotel (and actually the rest of the Courthouse Square - I think there are only one or two buildings left, only one of which is even remotely recognizable as being from that era)
Duplexes in Fort Worth South
Smith-Swinney Motor Company Building (the decaying building surrounded by the Firestone)
Houses of Quality Hill
The Medical Arts Building
The Aviation Building
The Worth Hotel & Theater
The Westbrook Hotel
The Palace Theater
Hell's Half-Acre
The Majestic Theater
The desecration of Lancaster Avenue
etc. etc. etc.

#45 Fire-Eater

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 09:46 PM

QUOTE(jmilam @ Feb 7 2007, 06:48 PM) View Post

I think the historic preservation is important, but some of it is just old crappy buildings. It is very subjective. I agree with you about the Will Rogers site, but I think some of the other comments are correct, there would be an uproar if it was proposed, and that is what I think you are trying to get started? To save buildings, just because they are old, would not be something that would gather a lot of support...IMHO...

By the way, I personally think the westside looks better every day....


Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Ok. Now who is being subjective -- with the "crappy building" evaluation? Please elaborate on "crappiness."

Actually, historic preservation is a multidisciplined field--people get college degrees in it. If you saw all the various regulations and guidelines you would not think it subjective at all. Ordinances must be objective or they get the old "arbitrary & capricious" kick-in-the-seat-of-the-pants. You might say it's subjective in that communities will often tailor guidelines and regulations to fit their unique character, needs, and objectives.

There are many people in this thread who are extraordinarily assumptive. I don't know where the big project is going -- it sounds pretty good to me; it would probably be great for the city. It's a big project. Some folks think they know what's going on with the Will Rogers, just because they saw a drawing or read a quote in the newspaper. Some blindly trust the city council. Some anticipate only good things in life.

Some think they know what will happen if the worst were to occur. I'm here to tell you that we don't know. Unless you're in on the planning process or are a player in some way, you have no control nor do you know what's going to happen.

If they decide to demolish it, some of you anticipate an uproar. Would this "uproar" take the form of hand-wringing, stomping of feet, blustered threats against the city council, boycotting the Stock Show? Lookee here, brothers & sisters, if They decide to demolish it there's nothing you can do to stop it: it doesn't even have the least of regulatory protection under the city's historic preservation ordinance! Protest all you like. Work yourself into a lather. If they REALLY want to do it, They will do it.

What am I trying to do? Am I trying to create an uproar? No. With this thread I would like to simply point out (in an admittedly outrageous fashion) that there is no protection for the Will Rogers, and that this should be of GREAT concern for those who revere that magnificent complex of Art Deco wonderfulness. Don't ASSume that the building is safe just because its a Fort Worth Landmark (or you trust the city council--HA!)

Am I "trying to save buildings just because they're old?" Hell, we can't even get the city to save historic buildings that are WORTHY of preservation, much less buildings that are "just old."

WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#46 Fire-Eater

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 09:49 PM

QUOTE(Prairie Pup @ Feb 7 2007, 09:46 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Fire-Eater @ Feb 7 2007, 04:32 PM) View Post


How about the hideous demolition by neglect of that very nice building across FROM the Firestone?



OK, now you got my attention. Something needs to be done about that. If the owner refuses or is unable to stop the decay, at least by constructing a roof, the building should be sold to someone who will do what is needed. The current owner should be brought before a judge. What sort of ordinance needs to be instituted for that to happen?


I advocate "Texas Justice" in that particular situation. ph34r.gif
WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#47 JBB

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 10:53 PM

QUOTE(Fire-Eater @ Feb 7 2007, 09:46 PM) View Post

There are many people in this thread who are extraordinarily assumptive.


Yourself included?


#48 mosteijn

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 11:04 PM

QUOTE(JBB @ Feb 7 2007, 10:53 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Fire-Eater @ Feb 7 2007, 09:46 PM) View Post

There are many people in this thread who are extraordinarily assumptive.


Yourself included?

Seriously...wasn't this whole thread started based on an ASSUMPTION? The assumption that because some Fort Worth treasures will demolished, Will Rogers will be too? Seems a little desperate if you ask me.

#49 cbellomy

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 11:07 PM

I am entirely in agreement about the need for greater historic preservation (the loss of the M&O Subway being my pet peeve), but Will Rogers is not slated for destruction. There's an element of dishonesty in the title of this thread that is extremely off-putting to me. "Will Rogers Complex in Serious Peril," I could accept. It probably is. But it isn't slated for destruction just yet.


#50 jmilam

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 07:03 AM

This whole discussion can never be won by anyone. Too many opinions, etc. Have fun! I'm out...(I've got to go keep my 1977 Delta 88 from being used for scrap because it is now historic...!)




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