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Museum Place

Cultural District Museum Place W. 7th Street

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#701 Austin55

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 12:59 PM

Renovo is cancelled

http://amp.star-tele...impression=true

#702 JBB

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 01:53 PM

Fort Worth: development friendly.

#703 panthercity

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 02:57 PM

Would have been amazing if they couldve built it without the citys incentive.

#704 rriojas71

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 03:03 PM

This story is why Fort Worth will possibly never reach it’s full potential as a thriving corporate and business centric city. I thought it had turned the corner but this in a nutshell is why we will probably never see that day.

#705 txbornviking

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 03:10 PM

Maybe I'm missing something, but I never understood the "casting a shadow" concern. The hotel was to be north of the museum. As the sun rises in the east, moves across the southern sky, and sets in the west, how would a shadow be cast southward across the Kimbell?



#706 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 07:43 PM

You would be able to see the hotel from Kimbell's lobby area. See post #665.

 

I'm all for protecting Amon Carter's view of the skyline, but not so much Kimbell's view of the sky.

 

This hotel would not have impacted the former.


- Dylan


#707 Jeriat

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 08:53 PM

Just throw this news in with all the other setbacks...

7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#708 JBB

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 09:37 PM

Maybe I'm missing something, but I never understood the "casting a shadow" concern. The hotel was to be north of the museum. As the sun rises in the east, moves across the southern sky, and sets in the west, how would a shadow be cast southward across the Kimbell?

 

I think "shadow" became the hyperbolic label put on this project by those that sided with the Kimbell, including the Star Telegram.  Literally inaccurate, but ominous sounding enough to scare everyone into thinking the Burj Khalifa was going to be built on the sidewalk in front of the Piano Pavilion.



#709 John T Roberts

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 10:27 PM

I also don't think "shadow" was a proper term.  I think the big issue with the Kimbell Art Museum is that when you were in the entry, inside near the courtyard, and in the restaurant, you would probably be able to see the hotel.  Kahn designed the museum with seeing blue sky through the courtyard.



#710 JBB

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 10:43 PM

Would have been amazing if they couldve built it without the citys incentive.

 

I meant to comment on this in my post earlier.  I think this hotel (and most projects that get tax breaks and incentives) would have been profitable without the incentives.  However, because so many projects get breaks, others risk being at a competitive disadvantage if they go forward otherwise.  The lack of hotels in the cultural district and an assumed increase in demand for rooms when the arena opens almost guarantees that another nearby hotel gets built with incentives.  As much as I would have liked to have seen this developer plow through, I get why they're backing out.  I have a feeling the city wouldn't have stopped at revoking incentives to keep this one from happening.

 

This proposal wasn't perfect and I think the city is continuing to set a bad precedent when it comes to development.  The developer in this case bent over backward to try to accommodate the opposition and it still wasn't good.  At this point, I'm ready to see everyone move on and come up with a good use for those vacant plots of prime real estate.

 

Edit: I'm not completely tone deaf to the intent that Kahn had with his design.  I just wonder if that reasoning hasn't been drawn out to an extreme that completely clashes with the changing urban landscape of the Cultural District.



#711 BlueMound

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 06:55 PM

So now 2 different hotel developers have backed out of Cultural District hotel projects ?
One for museum place, and wasnt another hotel project going to be built where Elan on Crockett Row is going ?

#712 Austin55

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 06:59 PM

Elan is going a block north of where the proposed/failed Westin was going. The site is still empty.

There's also rumors that the Left Bank hotel has been struggling to get going and may have undergone a few ownership/investor groups already.

#713 ramjet

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 08:34 PM

Dadgum, Fort Worth sure needs a tenacious Amon Carter these days.  Great read from yesteryear's pitbull who looked out for Fort Worth's interests at any cost...

 

https://www.dmagazin.../makin-whoopee/



#714 arch-image

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 09:51 AM

Been away through the holidays and flu season .... absolutely blown away that they pulled the rug out on this one. The city keeps screaming they want more hotels and development but short of Austin, haven't seen anywhere that makes it more difficult to get projects thru all the red tape. Would love to take on this project and talked with two developers but both are pretty hesitant due to the issues the city, museum and neighbors have all thrown in the way. As for the comment on wishing people could do these without the incentives, with the costs of land in these type areas and downtown its pretty difficult to make the numbers work without some help other wise the in a hotel like this your looking having to raise room rates that aren't going to be competitive enough to get people to stay there unless its during some big event and that's only about 3 month worth of days of the year. Most developers quite honestly prefer not to have to go for incentives either! 



#715 Austin55

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 03:36 PM

Did ya'll see the newest renderings?

 

g8VUp94.jpg

 

Thought it looked fine... Something will get built here. I guess this is a chance to get something even better than what was planned.



#716 txbornviking

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 03:56 PM

Did ya'll see the newest renderings?

 

g8VUp94.jpg

 

Thought it looked fine... Something will get built here. I guess this is a chance to get something even better than what was planned.

 

Sorta has a budget Richard Meier look to me



#717 johnfwd

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 03:57 PM

Nicely done but not good enough for the city and the museums.  If a hotel is not wanted near the museums as a means to attract out-of-city tourists to the museums, then the alternative is to build more high-rise hotels downtown and provide a convenient transportation network from downtown to the Cultural District.  



#718 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 11:43 PM

Did ya'll see the newest renderings?

 

[ IMAGE- Rendering of seven story building that appears to front Van Cliburn Way ]

 

Thought it looked fine... Something will get built here. I guess this is a chance to get something even better than what was planned.

 

Even this wasn't good enough for the Kimbell Art Museum and Dennis Shingleton? I'm starting to get fed up with people holding back development in this city.

 

Makes me wonder why I'm frustrated with the Far West Dallas... err, uh... Fort Worth Chamber's inability to market Fort Worth as a metro anchor.

 

There's no point of attracting major developers if we won't let developers build large buildings here.


- Dylan


#719 John T Roberts

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 11:58 AM

Something will eventually get built at this location that satisfies the property owner, the developer, the city, and the museums.  I always thought that having the taller portion of the building on Camp Bowie was the wrong approach. 

 

I also think that the Chamber will start doing a better job of marketing Fort Worth after the report that was released.  You can have trade offs.  Certain areas should have some restrictions, while other areas can be marketed with less restrictions.



#720 Jeriat

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 01:18 PM

 

Did ya'll see the newest renderings?

 

g8VUp94.jpg

 

Thought it looked fine... Something will get built here. I guess this is a chance to get something even better than what was planned.

 

Sorta has a budget Richard Meier look to me

 

 

Whatever goes up on that site better be mind blowingly amazing, otherwise I'll be even more pissed about this than I am now. 


7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#721 jefffwd

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 07:14 PM

Face it...  this why Fort Worth will always be in the shadow of Dallas.  Fort Worth will never shake its Cowtown image because the leaders in this city think too small.  It pains me to say this but FW will never be able to compete with Dallas, Houston or Austin.  FW is more like El Paso or Shreveport. 



#722 Doohickie

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 01:00 PM

I think I'd rather live in El Paso or Shreveport than Dallas, Houston or Austin.


My blog: Doohickie

#723 A_Random_Username

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 04:05 PM

I'd Second Shreveport.



#724 Jeriat

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 05:44 PM

I think I'd rather live in El Paso or Shreveport than Dallas, Houston or Austin.

 

But I'd still rather this city build and have the mentality of the latter three than the first two. 
(...well, I take that back. Even El Paso has been trying to get its streetcar back.)


7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#725 A_Random_Username

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 02:18 AM

Jeriat, I would LOVE to see this city be as full of life as Dallas or Austin or Houston. Not expecting it overnight or as hot as the 3, but a start would be nice.

#726 ramjet

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 09:45 AM

That site needs a hotel more like this:

 

https://southcongresshotel.com/



#727 panthercity

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 10:50 AM

That site needs a hotel more like this:
 
https://southcongresshotel.com/


We really like that place, that would be a great fit.

#728 rriojas71

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 01:38 PM

Was at World of Beer yesterday and they were demolishing the small building east of Van Cliburn that was just west of great Outdoors.

Hopefully this is a good sign and not just clearing of the land.

#729 arch-image

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 04:01 PM

I still don't really understand the Kimball's comment/complaint on how anything to the north of their location is going to cast a shadow on them. Sun Still rises and sets east west ... I think anyway. 



#730 JBB

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 04:15 PM

It's hyperbole. It will be visible from inside parts of the museum so they've taken liberty with the label "shadow". "Casting a shadow" sounds scarier than "you can see it".

#731 arch-image

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 04:27 PM

Well Duuuu, anything you build there your going to be able to see, Jeez I hate really really dislike people sometime. Was trying to post a pic of a concept but cant figure out how on here. Does the board allow linking to flickr? 



#732 Austin55

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 04:49 PM

Perhaps the Kimball is operated by groundhogs who enjoy warm weather?

#733 BlueMound

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 08:29 PM

I still don't really understand the Kimball's comment/complaint on how anything to the north of their location is going to cast a shadow on them. Sun Still rises and sets east west ... I think anyway. 

Publicly, the issue was height

I think the real issue was the mediocre design of the building. JMHO



#734 John T Roberts

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 09:33 PM

BlueMound, actually, I think the issue was both.  Many people complained publicly about the height, but also a lot of those same people complained about the design.  I never thought the design was great and I thought that the taller portion of the hotel should be on the northern portion of that site.



#735 John T Roberts

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 09:39 PM

Arch-image, the board does allow linking to Flickr.  Some of my pictures are actually hosted there and posted on the forum.  Click on the photo you would like to post on the forum, then click the "Share" button. (outlined arrow pointing to the right)  Click BB code.  I use the largest format.  Then code text will come up highlighted.  Copy that text and paste into your forum post.  Then, the photograph will load into the forum.



#736 arch-image

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 11:21 AM

Thank you John, Would be curious on thoughts from those who didn't like the design what your thoughts of this would be 

 

39258631235_bae4f48eb6_b.jpgElement-Hotel_ Prototype by Arch-Image, on Flickr 



#737 jefffwd

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 12:41 PM

Thank you John, Would be curious on thoughts from those who didn't like the design what your thoughts of this would be 

 

39258631235_bae4f48eb6_b.jpgElement-Hotel_ Prototype by Arch-Image, on Flickr 

Love the hotel but lose the palm trees.  This isn't Miami...  Otherwise, two thumbs up from me.



#738 rriojas71

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:53 PM

it would work, but a little more archtectural substance would be great. It does fit in well with the other Museum place buildings

#739 arch-image

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 05:42 PM

it would work, but a little more archtectural substance would be great. It does fit in well with the other Museum place buildings

 

that was my thinking, whatever goes there needs to be more modern looking and have some "features" shall we call it to it. I felt the Renovo was extremely plain and boxy. Oh, and yes Jefffwd, we could lose the palm trees, this one is being done in Orlando, we do tall Cati here right? 



#740 Austin55

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 08:56 PM

The view from the Kimball was concerning. The view from the Carter was not obstructed at all. I've heard Renovo is looking for another site in FW, glad that we haven't completely run them off.

#741 Jeriat

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 02:16 AM

 I've heard Renovo is looking for another site in FW, glad that we haven't completely run them off.

 

Lancaster Corridor... Magnolia... ITC (or "Metro Center") surface lots... Sundance Lot... if it were about 5-8 years into the future, Panther Island... 

 

Along West 7th:
(options)
- replace Enterprise Rent-A-Car and surface lot behind it
- replace the strip mall on the Northeast corner of Univ. & 7th
- build on top of the old "Into the West" site... maybe keep half the building and incorporate it into the new hotel... make it a highrise of at least 15 floors. 
- build on the abandoned "Backwoods" site, use that entire section of the property, build up to the sidewalk while having a stacked, multi-level parking garage base and ground floor retail
 


7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#742 Austin55

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 11:44 PM

Evidently the Renovo debacle didn't change Museum Place's plans for a 9 story office on Block B (to the East of Van Cliburn where the demolition recently took place) as this is in the upcoming Board of Adjustment agenda

 

 

BAC-18-012 Museum Place Block B, Ltd. by Ray Oujesky, Kelly Hart & Hallman

3214 & 3230 Camp Bowie Boulevard
a. Request a VARIANCE in the “MU-2” High Intensity Mixed-Use District to permit the
construction of a 9 story building, excessive by 2 stories.
b. Request a VARIANCE in the “MU-2” High Intensity Mixed-Use District to provide 285 parking
spaces, where 241 spaces would be the maximum allowed, excessive by 44 parking spaces. 

 

Previous renderings of this block show a 9 floor office and hotel, so perhaps that rendering is still accurate.



#743 BlueMound

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 12:14 AM

Is Kelly Hart moving to a Museum Place office bldg ?

#744 John T Roberts

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 08:35 AM

Kelly Hart is probably acting as the owner's agent on this case.  I don't think they are moving. 



#745 Jeriat

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 08:47 AM

So they want a hotel... just not Renovo.

I don't know about y'all but that's basically ehat this is telling me.

7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#746 JBB

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 09:11 AM

I'm not sure who "they" is, but hotels have always been in the plans.  The Kimbell's issue was not with the Renovo brand or that it was a hotel, but with the fact that the building could be seen from inside the museum space.



#747 johnfwd

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 11:42 AM

The view from the Kimball was concerning. The view from the Carter was not obstructed at all. I've heard Renovo is looking for another site in FW, glad that we haven't completely run them off.

As an attorney I've represented property owners, a few of whom present their site plans for city approval.  I would be interested to learn if Renovo had first acquired the subject property through purchase then sought city approval for a hotel project through the planning/zoning process, or if their land purchase was contingent on planning/zoning approval.  If the former is true, Renovo is stuck with ownership of property where they can't build want; if the latter is the case, I suppose they can look for available adequate tracts for possible acquisition elsewhere in our city.  Anyone interested might want to check TAD records to see who owned that property.



#748 JBB

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 12:56 PM

According to TAD, the ownership is still some sort of subsidiary of Jagee, the developer for Museum Place.  I'm not sure if Heart of America intended to purchase the property or work as a partner with Jagee to develop and manage the hotel.  None of the articles I could find were real clear on that.



#749 Austin55

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 01:20 PM

I don't believe HOA is involved

#750 JBB

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 01:29 PM

They were listed as one of the development partners in the cancellation article and the proposed concept is listed on their website.







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