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Modern Streetcar Dead


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#201 Fort Worthology

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 08:25 PM

The initial route recommended by HDR was a downtown-to-Near Southside route along South Main to Magnolia.
 
(The newly redone South Main is, in fact, prepped for streetcar tracks already, just in case.)[/quote]

How so?

 

Buried utilities were moved, and the road bed was built to support streetcar tracks with minimal alteration needed in the future.


- Architecture/urban planning/transit blogger, Fort Worth Weekly

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#202 JBB

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 09:26 PM

It's interesting that one of the projects that the city said they needed to concentrate on in lieu of streetcars, the commuter line that became TEX Rail, is still at best a year from completion 7 years later.  I went back and couldn't find what the projected completion date was at that time, but I bet it wasn't late-2018 or 2019.  



#203 Austin55

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 10:06 PM

It's interesting that one of the projects that the city said they needed to concentrate on in lieu of streetcars, the commuter line that became TEX Rail, is still at best a year from completion 7 years later.  I went back and couldn't find what the projected completion date was at that time, but I bet it wasn't late-2018 or 2019.  

 

Well, half of it anyway.

 

A 2009 forum post has the opening in 2013



#204 Volare

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 08:27 AM

Meanwhile in Dallas...

We sure showed those Feds where they could stick their money!

 

DALLAS_ELECTRIC_STREETCAR_43332391.JPG



#205 Austin55

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 02:15 PM

It's interesting that one of the projects that the city said they needed to concentrate on in lieu of streetcars, the commuter line that became TEX Rail, is still at best a year from completion 7 years later.  I went back and couldn't find what the projected completion date was at that time, but I bet it wasn't late-2018 or 2019.  

 

The T's Masterplan has no other rail commuter recommended after the SW leg is complete, whenever that will be. It does recommend Streetcars going S, W & N from downtown. Presumably, the streetcar discussions will pick up again in a few years.

 

I also wonder if there is any thought to giving streetcars priority over the SW leg. 



#206 renamerusk

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 02:21 PM

[The T's Masterplan]... recommend Streetcars going S, W & N from downtown. Presumably, the streetcar discussions will pick up again in a few years.

 

The discussions should have been picked up "yesterday" as nearly if not all of Fort Worth's peers and those considered to be of a higher stature already have street cars and now are expanding their network.

 

Fort Worth is the last city to the party. :no:



#207 Austin55

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 07:14 PM

Here is the 2010 proposal study. I'd never seen it before.

 

 

 

http://fortworthgov....&meta_id=102267



#208 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 10:20 PM

That starter system didn't serve any big destinations outside of downtown. It failed to run up to the Stockyards, and it failed to run down Magnolia.

 

Basically, they proposed starting with half of a northern line and half of a southern line. It would be better if they started with a full northern line or a full southern line.

 

The starter system would have suffered from poor ridership until any extensions were built. It looks like economic development was the primary goal.


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#209 Doohickie

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 08:16 AM

That starter system didn't serve any big destinations outside of downtown.


...which makes one wonder why the downtown interests were so set against it.


Essentially it would have been little more that putting Molly on rails.


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#210 Fort Worthology

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 08:50 AM

That starter system didn't serve any big destinations outside of downtown. It failed to run up to the Stockyards, and it failed to run down Magnolia.

 

 

The thinking at the time amongst a lot of Near Southside powers-that-be was that running the first line down South Main (which would've been the first part of the system constructed) would prompt the Magnolia expansion on a faster timescale. There were talks about ways to fund the Magnolia expansion as rapidly as possible using Southside local dollars, following the go-ahead to start building South Main.

 

It's been years and I don't recall where things were left off, but for obvious reasons, these plans were shelved when the main project was canned.


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#211 Volare

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 08:56 AM

The initial proposal was significantly altered in an attempt to garner the approval of the 1% who run this town. When they pulled their approval for even this modest plan, the streetcar was dead. My guess is the Magnolia expansion being fast tracked is what prompted the scuttling of the whole thing. Nothing happens here without the 1% approval. That's the big difference between Fort Worth and Dallas- Fort Worth is small enough to be dominated by a very few.



#212 Austin55

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 10:44 AM

The starter system would have suffered from poor ridership until any extensions were built. It looks like economic development was the primary goal.

 

I would expect Panther Island's streetcar to be similar, probably due to the funding nature of the TIF needing to make thier money back through reinvestment.



#213 Electricron

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 02:09 AM

I think we are forgetting the lesson we should have learned with the collapse of Fort Worth's streetcar project. While the 50% funding from the Federal government could be attained, the 50% from the local government couldn't - and the main reason why was because the project hadn't and wouldn't have completed the EIS process in time. It wasn't ready to build. 

 

The main reasons why the Dallas project proceeded; local funding was available, another EIS process was already underway and it wasn't difficult to add the streetcar project to it, the route was politically settled upon quickly, and the local neighborhoods wanted it. 

 

We're still arguing over where the first streetcar line in Fort Worth should be built, and how large the streetcar system should be. The local government was not ready then nor is it now. We need to start the project from the beginning, follow the procedural steps a step at a time, define a system and the first route, define where the local funding will come from, complete the EIS, and then ask for Federal funding once all the i's a dotted and the t's are crossed. 



#214 Doohickie

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 08:33 AM

That is incorrect.

 

The local funding was identified; it was coming from the Uptown and Southside TIFs.


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#215 Electricron

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 04:19 PM

That is incorrect.
 
The local funding was identified; it was coming from the Uptown and Southside TIFs.

Maybe they had identified where the money was going to come from, but had those TIFs agreed to where the route was going to be located exactly, and which neighborhood would get the streetcar built first? I suggest they hadnt settle those questions, which is why the city council failed to approve it. The i-s were not doted and the t-s were not cerossed because a proper EIS procedure and process wasnt followed.

#216 JBB

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 04:33 PM

The city council sandbagged the entire deal because downtown interests didn't want it.  It had nothing to do with any of ^that^.



#217 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 08:37 PM

Maybe they had identified where the money was going to come from, but had those TIFs agreed to where the route was going to be located exactly, and which neighborhood would get the streetcar built first? I suggest they hadnt settle those questions, which is why the city council failed to approve it. The i-s were not doted and the t-s were not cerossed because a proper EIS procedure and process wasnt followed.

 

Fort Worth city council voted to stop studying the plan. The study Austin posted clearly identifies a recommended starter route.


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#218 Fort Worthology

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 09:36 AM

 


 

Fort Worth city council voted to stop studying the plan. The study Austin posted clearly identifies a recommended starter route.

 

 

Exactly right. The vote was not to build the streetcar right away - it was to continue with the study. The initial route was clearly identified and spelled out by HDR in their documentation. The Near Southside and Uptown TIFs were on board with that initial route.


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#219 Electricron

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 02:34 AM

The latest I read from the Dallas Forum suggests there are less than 500 passengers per day using their mew and free Oak Cliff streetcar.

500! There are some suggesting the 10,000 using the TRE or TexRail isn't enough to warrant the costs, what do you think about less than 500? 



#220 txbornviking

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 09:18 AM

The latest I read from the Dallas Forum suggests there are less than 500 passengers per day using their mew and free Oak Cliff streetcar.

500! There are some suggesting the 10,000 using the TRE or TexRail isn't enough to warrant the costs, what do you think about less than 500? 

 

It's heart breaking to think Ft Worth threw away $25million that instead went to that instead. No doubt our ridership would have been FAR above those numbers. Kansas City's streetcar is averaging nearly 5500 riders per day. Cincinnati's somewhat troubled streetcar has averaged 1600-2000 per day.

smh



#221 JBB

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 09:52 AM

The latest I read from the Dallas Forum suggests there are less than 500 passengers per day using their mew and free Oak Cliff streetcar.
500! There are some suggesting the 10,000 using the TRE or TexRail isn't enough to warrant the costs, what do you think about less than 500?


So a week ago the streetcar in Fort Worth didn't happen because the study hadn't been completed and they didn't know how to pay for it (wrong), but now it didn't happen because of low ridership on the TRE and a streetcar line built half a decade later 30 miles away? I'm looking forward to next week's reason.

#222 Volare

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 08:46 PM

Dallas is already about to build an extension to their streetcar.

 

https://www.dallasne...town-omni-hotel

 

With this extension I would expect the ridership numbers to increase substantially, and even more so when the final leg is connected.

 

But don't worry, we showed them now it's not done in Fort Worth.



#223 Austin55

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 08:52 PM

$8M to go 2 blocks?

#224 Volare

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 08:58 PM

Very busy streets in that area and significant intersections.I would imagine this likely includes the station cost too.



#225 A_Random_Username

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 09:01 PM

Build a street car with a stop or 2 close to me it at least within several blocks and Ill ride it daily.




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