38 replies to this topic

[BlueMound]

I'm going to get seriously flamed for suggesting this.
But I just don't see many people interacting with the water gardens.
Many it's too walled off, too concrete, too scary - it's just not effective as a popular urban space.
Perhaps we should just replace it with a urban park concept like Klyde Warren in Dallas.

[Austin55]

Here is my well thought out and non knee jerk reaction to this proposal...


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I sort of like that it is "walled off". It gives you a place to escape the city. It's quiet. Sundance Plaza and Klyde Warren are active and busy. Sure it's not in the best urban form, but it's really a great urban space I think. 

Here's some of my simple fix idea for the Gardens
-Tear down the south wall along Lancaster. Use that new open space and incorporate it as an entrance to the WG. Throw in some park oriented stuff, benches, playgrounds, signs, etc.   

And then, (hopefully) as the Lancaster corridor continues to expand and those nasty lots are filled in, the WG will become a better and more active space. Not that it really needs to be. 

[John T Roberts]

Austin55, something similar to your idea was proposed for the Water Gardens after the redesign of Lancaster was completed.

[renamerusk]

Here is my well thought out and non knee jerk reaction to this proposal...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Not only NO, but H%&L NO!

[Dylan]

I think a park that should get the Klyde Warren treatment is Burnett Park. I go to the Water Gardens every time I go downtown (including last weekend).

[eastfwther]

I'm going to get seriously flamed for suggesting this.
But I just don't see many people interacting with the water gardens.
Many it's too walled off, too concrete, too scary - it's just not effective as a popular urban space.
Perhaps we should just replace it with a urban park concept like Klyde Warren in Dallas.

 

I'm going to get seriously flamed for suggesting this.
But I just don't see many people interacting with the water gardens.
Many it's too walled off, too concrete, too scary - it's just not effective as a popular urban space.
Perhaps we should just replace it with a urban park concept like Klyde Warren in Dallas.

I totally agree with you.  I find the Water Gardens a horrible urban space.  It's cold, ugly and way too  much concrete. Plus the fact that it's surrounded by some of downtown's ugliest buildings doesn't help.    A real park would be a much better fit.  Just like I think a park would have been a much better fit for the new Sundance Plaza. 

[Doohickie]

Perhaps we should just replace it with a urban park concept like Klyde Warren in Dallas.

 

What characteristics of Klyde Warren are you specifically referring to?  More geen space?

[johnfwd]

 

Perhaps we should just replace it with a urban park concept like Klyde Warren in Dallas.

 

What characteristics of Klyde Warren are you specifically referring to?  More geen space?

 

If it's more "green space" then I believe it defeats the architectural nature and characteristics of the Fort Worth Water Gardens.  I believe we're making an apples and oranges comparison here.  The Dallas Klyde Warren is an open-view and easily accessible public park for people to stroll, chat, eat lunch, play games, etc. I've not been there, but have seen photos of it, and no doubt it's a nice park.  But I love the enclosed nature of the Water Gardens, which gives it a mystical quality.  People who come to the adjacent convention center look to the walled-in south and probably say, "Hey, let's go see what this is about?"  And they are probably intrigued by this montage of tree-lined cement and water fountains.   It draws people.  It's exclusive, serene, and relaxing.  I see lots of visitors climbing down the rocks to the major fountain below.  They take photos, and their kids enjoy the "Mountain."  The only other similar tourist site that marvels people who come to Fort Worth, in my opinion, are the Japanese Gardens. 

[JBB]

Count me as one of the few that doesn't really love the Water Gardens.  It's closed off and isolated in a wasteland area of downtown.  That being said, I'm not in favor of tearing it down completely.  I would like to see changes made to open it up and integrate it more with its surroundings.  I think they were on the right track when they better connected it to the convention center back in the early '00s and removing the wall along Lancaster would take it one step further.

[Fort Worthology]

 

I totally agree with you.  I find the Water Gardens a horrible urban space.  It's cold, ugly and way too  much concrete. Plus the fact that it's surrounded by some of downtown's ugliest buildings doesn't help.    A real park would be a much better fit.  Just like I think a park would have been a much better fit for the new Sundance Plaza. 

 

 

Completely disagree about Sundance Square Plaza - a plaza of that nature is *exactly* what was needed in the heart of downtown.  Not everything should be a "park."

 

On the Water Gardens - I love the design too much to say "get rid of it," but it definitely could use some better accessibility from the street.  Prime #1 item on that list would be that awful wall on Lancaster that needs to come down *yesterday.*

[Austin55]

Who owns that empty plot of land between the WG and Lancaster? 

Another thing you shouldn't forget- There's another park immediately across the street.  Maybe not so much a park as a memorial, but still an open area. And then two more just a few blocks north in Hyde and Worth Square. It is possible to have an over-saturation of parks. 

 

[Now in Denton]

I had tons of fun at the Water Garden as a kid. It is a Jewel. If anything I like to expand it ! Or some more Water action on the outside. To draw a hint at what is inside. But the main problem. Is not with the Garden. It is that the south end of downtown is dead. It has been very slow. To come to life. Sundance is mostly done. Medical district to the south is booming . 7th Street to the west. Has for the most part. Ben a hit. I believe Fort Worth will rediscover The Water Garden. When their is more development.

 

I know Mr. Roberts wants to stay on topic per post. But I was going to say on another post . I think Main street Arts festival. Ought to be renamed "Fort Worth Art's Festival" And one day. I like to see Lancaster be the expanded part of Art's fest. That way Fort Worth will go from 3rd largest . To the largest Arts festival in America . Lancaster and the Water Garden will finally get the love and notice.

 

/

[BlueMound]

The Best New Urban Parks in the U.S.

http://www.metrojack...parks-in-the-us

#2 is Houston's 12 acre Discovery Green
built on top of underground parking, it even has a small lake for kids to float model boats.

#4 is Klyde Warren in Dallas - 10 acres

Unfortunately, the site of the Water Gardens is only 4.3 acres, maybe 5 acres if you include the open space that borders Lancaster

[gdvanc]

I think it would be a mistake to convert it to a standard park. I know not everyone is attracted to the expanse of concrete, but it has been pretty active every time I've been there for the past few years (mostly weekends), so it doesn't seem to bother everyone. It's kind of a quirky space with at least one pretty unique feature; people are willing to explore it.

 

I agree the south lawn is underused. I imagine many who've been to the Water Gardens didn't even notice it. That can be improved upon and opening it up to Lancaster would certainly help. (For whomever asked, I think the strip of land south of the wall is part of the right-of-way for Lancaster.)

 

I think perhaps something could be done with the open central space. Soften it up with the addition of new greenery in that area without completely changing the structure of the park. Perhaps bring in public art; pieces that just beg people to have their pictures taken on them would be cool. Bring in some sort of regular programming if that's not already being done.

[Jeriat]

What would getting rid of the Water Gardens do, other than just make that end of downtown even MORE boring and less attractive than it already is? 

Just find something to front Lancaster (another water feature or something like that), give some real lighting to the Houston and Commerce sides and call it a day. 

[renamerusk]

 

....I believe we're making an apples and oranges comparison here....But I love the enclosed nature of the Water Gardens, which gives it a mystical quality....intrigued by this montage of tree-lined cement and water fountains....It's exclusive, serene, and relaxing....The only other similar tourist site that marvels people who come to Fort Worth, in my opinion, are the Japanese Gardens. 

 

None more salient are the remarks just made surrounding the inanity of this topic than those.

 

The Water Gardens is a functioning masterpiece by the late world renowned American architect. http://en.wikipedia..../Philip_Johnson.   Not only do we have this one of a kind gem of his in the heart of our city, we also have his Amon Carter Museum in our cultural district.

 

Think! The Water Gardens is a tribute to water as a botanical garden is a tribute to flowers.

 

I can not imagine Fort Worth to ever be so ignorant as to alter or pave over the Water Gardens. And what next?.. replace the Fort Worth Botanical Gardens with a municipal golf course.   There is absolute no earthly reason to replace the Water Gardens with yet another glorified dog park and outdoor volleyball court.  If necessary, just build another park above the Jones Street rail yard.

 

This sort of idea for a topic seems more suited for the Dallas Forum where the old is routinely pillaged for the next trending fad; and from where I suspect it originates.

 

Fort Worth over everyone.

[renamerusk]

Unfortunately, the site of the Water Gardens is only 4.3 acres, maybe 5 acres if you include the open space that borders Lancaster

 

It may surprise you to see how actually small is the Mona Lisa; or for that matter, that The Fort Worth Zoo is smaller than the Dallas Zoo.

[RD Milhollin]

I can't imagine that Fort Worth has a need to build a park-on-stilts just because Dallas did. Sure, K. Warren Park is unique and cool, but there is plenty here that is unique and cool in it's own right. Fort Worth has a lot of open space within close proximity to downtown; if you don't believe me just look north a few hundred feet. There is a lot of potential over the next several years to envision and install a significant "urban park" within the Panther Island project. There is huge potential for Gateway Park to the east; couldn't parts of that huge preserve be an "urban" park? At this point in time I would say that the area with the greatest need for this sort of facility is the near south side, but they are very organized, have funds for studies and development, and are probably better poised than any other area of the city to attract outside funding for an appropriately scaled project that would add to the value of the surrounding neighborhoods. Water Gardens; a masterpiece, but is there room for improvement? Absolutely, and several ideas have already been identified in this thread. 

 

At the recent Forum meet on Sunday I briefly discussed with John my feelings about the potential for the block formerly occupied by the old Continental National Bank / Landmark Tower building. I think this would make an excellent urban space, especially when the rest of the block where the Waggoner Building is located is developed. The easy proximity from there to Sundance Square would allow it to be used as part of larger events (Main Street Arts Festival, etc.) and the owners / developers would of course be free to build-in their own unique ideas for how a public urban space in a downtown area might be realized. I like the idea of how the planners of Savannah GA placed public spaces about 3 blocks apart when the city was laid out in 1733. Savannah is very walkable, and each square has its own unique qualities that set it apart. In this line of thinking, maybe another block-square "urban" park should be considered in the block bounded by 7th, 8th, Calhoun and Jones Streets, with a parking facility beneath. An alternative might be the two blocks in front of the ITC, and the lower levels could satisfy the identified need for longer-term parking as well as future bus transit facilities (out of the weather, easier to shut down at the end of the day). A surface park in either of those locations would work as sort of a "welcome mat" for people entering Fort Worth via transit through the ITC.

[renamerusk]

Tear down the south wall along Lancaster. Use that new open space and incorporate it as an entrance to the WG. Throw in some park oriented stuff, benches, playgrounds, signs, etc......the WG will become a better and more active space. Not that it really needs to be. 

 

Water and its calming affect and tranquility; aren't these qualities worthy enough to appreciate? 

 

Yes, the 'overhead era" south wall should have a grand gate unto Lancaster Avenue, but no screening children, dog waste or trampled grounds.  A pause or an escape from one's business life while listening to the mockingbird is worth it.

 

And as so astutely observed, "Not that it really needs to be".

[John T Roberts]

I have just finished up my continuing education by attending the Texas Society of Architects Convention.  Today at lunch, food trucks were set up in the concrete plaza of the Water Gardens and we all went down there to buy food and eat it there.  This really worked for a convention in the center. 

 

I don't think we should even consider making a park like Klyde Warren Park where the Water Gardens are located.  There are several reasons.  The park is a landmark.  It won't be too many years before it will be eligible for historic designations on all levels.  It was designed by Philip Johnson, one of the great architects of the 20th Century.  The water has soothing qualities.  I think it is a wonderful place to visit.

[ron4Life]

 

None more salient are the remarks just made surrounding the inanity of this topic than those.

 

The Water Gardens is a functioning masterpiece by the late world renowned American architect. http://en.wikipedia..../Philip_Johnson.   Not only do we have this one of a kind gem of his in the heart of our city, we also have his Amon Carter Museum in our cultural district.

 

Think! The Water Gardens is a tribute to water as a botanical garden is a tribute to flowers.

 

I can not imagine Fort Worth to ever be so ignorant as to alter or pave over the Water Gardens. And what next?.. replace the Fort Worth Botanical Gardens with a municipal golf course.   There is absolute no earthly reason to replace the Water Gardens with yet another glorified dog park and outdoor volleyball court.  If necessary, just build another park above the Jones Street rail yard.

 

This sort of idea for a topic seems more suited for the Dallas Forum where the old is routinely pillaged for the next trending fad; and from where I suspect it originates.

 

amen - RD Milhollin

[GenE]

You know that I love my Fort Worth,  and I certainly don't want any changes to the Water Garden.  But after googling the Klyde Warren park in Dallas, I covet such a park for Austin.  Yes, I know, Austin has a lot of green space/lakes etc. but everything that happens in Austin costs $$$.

 

The website for Klyde Warren Park shows a calendar that includes a lot of free events.  I wish I could get to Dallas for the  Drumming with George Cortez

 

Apparently this park only opened in 2012, but the web page jumps back and forth between current tense, and future tense.  So I have to ask, is the park actually functioning the way the web site indicates, or is it still in the building stages?

 

Do they have "sound buffers" to protect hearing from the sounds of traffic underneath/beside the park?

 

It seems like the park is located ABOVE the freeway unless I am misreading.  Are there elevators to reach the park for the mobility impaired?

 

Sorry to ask these questions on the Fort Worth Forum,  but it is home to me, and I have difficulty navigating the Dallas Forum.

[Now in Denton]

I have just finished up my continuing education by attending the Texas Society of Architects Convention.  Today at lunch, food trucks were set up in the concrete plaza of the Water Gardens and we all went down there to buy food and eat it there.  This really worked for a convention in the center. 

 

I don't think we should even consider making a park like Klyde Warren Park where the Water Gardens are located.  There are several reasons.  The park is a landmark.  It won't be too many years before it will be eligible for historic designations on all levels.  It was designed by Philip Johnson, one of the great architects of the 20th Century.  The water has soothing qualities.  I think it is a wonderful place to visit.

 

I drove by their Saturday around 10 A.M. I saw a lot of people inside. Klyde Warren Park is great in so many ways. But in the end, it is just a park. Someone said maybe some green space inside. I say NO to that as well. Seem like many here if they have a issue with the park. Is with the street sides of the park. That and only that. I am open to change. In my opinion. That is the only part Philip Johnson missed the mark on . 

[RD Milhollin]

 

Apparently this park only opened in 2012, but the web page jumps back and forth between current tense, and future tense.  So I have to ask, is the park actually functioning the way the web site indicates, or is it still in the building stages?

 

Do they have "sound buffers" to protect hearing from the sounds of traffic underneath/beside the park?

 

It seems like the park is located ABOVE the freeway unless I am misreading.  Are there elevators to reach the park for the mobility impaired?

 

As far as I can tell the KWPark is fully functional and complete. Noise abatement was built-in as part of the original plan. The park area is at "ground-level" since the freeway in that area is depressed. Any elevators would let you out in the fast lane or the shoulder   Mobility-impaired users can cross the streets running parallel to the freeway using sidewalk ramps and crosswalks to get into the park.

[Austin55]

RD, I had a chuckle at the idea of someone hopping onto an elevator in KWP in hopes of discovering a cool underground lair or something and the door opening up the on the shoulder of a freeway lol. 

I did some quick thinking, maybe if there was a lot of interest in a Discovery Green/Klyde Warren/ Main Street Garden/Zilker style large urban park, maybe the massive surface lot right outside T&P could be a candidate for such a space? Expand Haynes Memorial park into it even. Not sure if such a park would be successful but not really sure what else could be done with that lot. And it certainly shouldn't be a parking lot. 

[BlueMound]

Perhaps an indoor/outdoor structure with sliding glass doors could be added to the Water Gardens, like Jean Nouvel's pavilion for Jane's Carousel in Brooklyn

 

A/C in the summer, heated in the winter

 

https://www.google.c...iw=1024&bih=672

[RD Milhollin]

Should the water gardens add a vintage carousel as well? It appears that the pavilion is solely to protect and extend the life of that beautiful carousel. The central space does seem a waste though. When it was built I assumed that there would be outdoor concerts there, perhaps a jazz Festival, pop series, or even a symphony under the stars. I don't remember that ever happening. Of course it's not too late… that area could even be used for the southernmost venue for an expanded Main Street Fort Worth Arts Festival music, or it could host a series of its own if a sponsor could be found (Omni Hotel and UTA-Fort Worth, Fort Worth Parks, FW Symphony?). I think it would be good for the city to have a second public plaza (a "real public plaza" actually) downtown; sort of a southern cultural anchor… Food trucks could be allowed to set up in one of the many parking lots close by during events.

 

As the adjacent May Owen Building (TCC) to the west is redeveloped and some sort of infill (including another hotel and other hospitality facilities to complement the Convention Center) is gradually (or dramatically) added to the vacant lots to the east, the outdoor venue could come into its own. Temporary seating and stage could be stored nearby and assembled a few hours before a performance. A permanently installed and architecturally-designed awning system over that central area would make the area more inviting for events when the weather is a little less than perfect.

 

Another improvement might be to design and implement a better access from the south. When the gardens were built there was only a double-deck highway to the south and the "mountain" in the gardens helped to dampen noise from that structure. With Lancaster being redeveloped as a boulevard with residential and mixed uses there should be some way to bring the new residents and visitors to that corridor into the gardens from that side. This would probably constitute a major change to the original design but would better allow the gardens to be an asset for the people in that area. Another major entrance would also allow buses to be used to transport people into and out of the gardens area for events. 

[Austin55]

I think the perfect place for a real public plaza would be out front of T&P. 

[renamerusk]

Should the water gardens add a vintage carousel as well?....… Food trucks could be allowed to set up in one of the many parking lots close by during events.

 

Temporary seating and stage could be stored nearby and assembled a few hours before a performance. A permanently installed and architecturally-designed awning system over that central area would make the area more inviting for events when the weather is a little less than perfect.

 

Another improvement might be to design and implement a better access from the south.

 

My feelings are that a carousel would change the character of the park by making it more like a midway and less like a refuge for connecting with nature and water which it now does so very well. 

 

The food truck craze is detrimental to the businesses who have invested in brick and mortar and employees in the CBD particulary doing special events when these businesses are hoping for a bonus in sales; I would and generally discourage patronage of food trucks for this reason.

 

Open air concerts in the summer is an excellent idea; as is better access from the Lancaster corridor.

[Fort Worthology]

 

 

The food truck craze is detrimental to the businesses who have invested in brick and mortar and employees in the CBD particulary doing special events when these businesses are hoping for a bonus in sales; I would and generally discourage patronage of food trucks for this reason.

 

I have yet to see any proof at all that the "food truck craze" is detrimental in any meaningful way to brick & mortar businesses.  And let's not forgot that most of them are run by local entrepreneurs who are *also* investing in their neighborhood, albeit in a different way, and this allows us to have greater variety and more upstart local businesses in walkable areas that might not otherwise be affordable for new businesses.  That's a very good thing.

[Austin55]

Personally I would not like to see any drastic changes to any part of the watergardens besides a new entrance on the South side onto Lancaster. I think the most important thing that could happen for the place is for smart development to happen along the surrounding blocks (along Lancaster, Calhoun, and Throckmorton)

[Fort Worthology]

I agree with Austin - that wall on the south end needs to come down ASAP.  It has no place in a revitalized Lancaster streetscape.  Otherwise, I am fine with the Water Gardens in their current form.

[cberen1]

First, I've not seen evidence that a new park space in Fort Worth would get used any more than the Water Gardens are today.  Different is not necessarily better.  If you were determined to mimic KW Park, the best location I can think of would be the green space west of the T&P.  It's noticably larger, accessible by car, and visible from the freeway (after all, we're copying Dallas so being seen REALLY important.)

 

Second, I think the real challenge for the Water Gardens is lack of programming and its surroundings.  If there was regular programming to draw people in, or if the buildings around it were densely populated, the gardens would get more regular traffic.  A tranquil respite in the middle of the bustling city.

 

Lastly, the idea of the Landmark Tower block as a public space is perfect.  I very much like the idea of public spaces spread out throughout downtown, each with its own characteristics and charm.  On that block I think a green space with a massive fountain in the middle would be stunning and well placed relative to the other public spaces downtown.  Perhaps above a two story underground garage...

[Austin55]

I think the watergardens south wall will be fixed, but like everything, it's a matter of time. Assuming the Mixed use project kicks off and is succesful, I think renovation of that wall and empty lot is a few years away. Plans are already drawn up to, 

 

 

And the plans for the Lancaster/Henderson park are also outlined in the 2024 PDF.

[renamerusk]

Lastly, the idea of the Landmark Tower block as a public space is perfect.  I very much like the idea of public spaces spread out throughout downtown, each with its own characteristics and charm.  On that block I think a green space with a massive fountain in the middle would be stunning and well placed relative to the other public spaces downtown.  Perhaps above a two story underground garage...

 

Two thumbs up!

[johnfwd]

2024 plans above are too fuzzy to view. From the plans it looks like the south-side wall is to remain.  I'm still in favor of retaining the exclusivity of the Water Gardens, but that may change if the city increases its presence in the area--e.g., purchasing the post office for a city hall.  Another public plaza?   First I've heard of a "Lancaster-Henderson Park".  I office at roughly the northeast corner of Lancaster and Henderson, which consists mostly of single-story office buildings and auto repairs shops. So where's the space for a park?

[Austin55]

The lancaster henderson park would be in the southeast corner below the highway ramps. 

[RD Milhollin]

If those highway ramps (allowing commuters from Westside into downtown - Cherry Street) were eliminated that would open up a lot of land along the Lancaster corridor for development, and make that corner area at Henderson St. suitable for a park. As it stands, the flyover ramps pretty much make that area undesirable from a downtown-urban-development standpoint, IMO.

 

Those ramps could go if better access from the west was available in the form of light rail. I still cringe a little when I read about the mixed use planned for the open strip north of Lancaster, knowing that land would be excellent ROW for a future east-west urban light rail system. 

[Austin55]

Those ramps are miserable. I think they should have made the ramps end at-grade at an intersection with lancaster, and eliminate the one leading off Macon all together. Not only do they waste a ton of usable land, they totally screw up the flow that Lancaster Avenue has, makes getting from downtown to southside less than pleasant, and completely segregates the Public Market building from everything. It's also terribly confusing for drivers. 

Apologies for getting off topic.