145 replies to this topic

[McHand]

Heard today that the Travis Avenue Baptist Church South Complex will become a Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market sometime in the near future. I knew the church was looking to sell the South Complex as a way to get the whole campus back on the NW corner of Berry and Hemphill. I am stoked that Wal Mart bought the property. Most of the Neighborhood Markets I've seen are not really in residential areas, but this one is actually in South Hemphill Heights. I understand that there is still an ongoing approval process with various authorities. I might do some asking around at church and see if I can get some more info.

[EwingFTW]

Heard today that the Travis Avenue Baptist Church South Complex will become a Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market sometime in the near future. I knew the church was looking to sell the South Complex as a way to get the whole campus back on the NW corner of Berry and Hemphill. I am stoked that Wal Mart bought the property. Most of the Neighborhood Markets I've seen are not really in residential areas, but this one is actually in South Hemphill Heights. I understand that there is still an ongoing approval process with various authorities. I might do some asking around at church and see if I can get some more info.

In the 1940s Berry and Hemphill had a Worth Food Market, Safeway Store, Taylor's Ice Cream, Gaveral Cleaners, White Theater, Barber Shop, Kleinschmidt Bakery, Mott's, Renfro Drugs, Mobil and Humble Gas Stations, a few others I can't remember and of course, Travis Ave. Baptist nearby.

[McHand]

I remember when the Safeway was there in the 80s - don't know if it's the same building you're talking about. I have been waiting a long time to see some commercial life come back to Berry/Hemphill, and I hope this is the start of it.

[John T Roberts]

EwingFTW, I can even remember most of those stores being there from the 1960's. The Safeway was located in various buildings at or near the intersection over the years. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the oldest Safeway building still standing is the commercial building on the west side of the street, just north of the gas station. This was once a commercial strip, rather than just one building. Then, Safeway moved one block north to the building where Mercado Monterrey is now located. Around 1970, they built a larger store on the southeast corner of Travis and Berry. The store really was at Hemphill and Berry, but it was behind the gas station that was on the southwest corner. It had a parking lot in front along Berry and another one to the side on Hemphill Street. Behind the store during this time period were houses. In the 1980's, Safeway bought the houses and built a "superstore" behind the earlier building. After the "superstore" opened, the earlier building was demolished. After Safeway left Texas in 1987, Travis Avenue Baptist Church bought the store and converted it into their South Complex. So to answer your question, the South Complex is the old Safeway store from the 1980's.

Avvy, the reason I know so much about your area is that I grew up and still live in the area. We are almost neighbors.

[David Love]

I'm hoping the WM neighborhood concept works, maybe the smaller footprint will make the shopping experience easier.

Stopping in the superstore concept a few times recently, I'd forgotten how filthy those places were, maybe it's just this downtown location. Their parking lots are the size of stadiums patrolled by security drones that seem to be able to do nothing more than chat on their cell phones. Try flagging one down sometime, seems they're only focused on WM liability situations.

I find it odd that Costco has the same size lots, often with a gas station and you're never far from their front door. Go to a Sam's and you're driving to their gas station, walking isn't an option, sometimes they're across the street.

[McHand]

David, you may want to check out the Neighborhood Market near Vickery and Southwest Parkway. Not sure of the exact address. At the time I went there, it reminded me of a brand-new Supercenter's grocery department - very clean and very well stocked. Overall a pleasant experience. And yes it does have a smaller footprint than a regular Wal-Mart.

Thanks as always for your input John. I am really rooting for this area. The Near South Side is coming along beautifully and now it's time for the not-as-near south side to get some love.

[John T Roberts]

The Neighborhood Market is at Vickery and Southwest Boulevard (TX 183), not the Parkway.

I agree with you Avvy, it's time for the not-so-near Southside to get some love.

[elpingüino]

The Star-Telegram's Tarrant Business blog has an item today about the Walmart project at Berry and Hemphill, specifically how it would fit into the neighborhood architecturally.

[urbancowboy]

Let's hope the mixed use at the streetfront happens sooner rather than later. I really don't want another huge parking lot in the city.

[John T Roberts]

Two neighborhood groups oppose the current design for the Walmart Neighborhood Market. Below is a link to the Fort Worth Star-Telegram Blog on the project.

http://blogs.star-te...lines-fortworth

[elpingüino]

The Star-Telegram reports that Walmart has changed its proposed design for the Neighborhood Market:
Tarrant Business blog entry

[Roger_H]

I really have no sympathy for Walmart. If they were not willing to meet the area's design guidelines, perhaps they should have looked elsewhere. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of cases where design guidelines have been imposed in the name of "historic preservation" in order to "spur redevelopment" only to see those aggressive regulations stunt growth and impede development. I don't know if that is the case in this area or not, so I hope Walmart and the neighbors can work something out.

[John T Roberts]

Roger_H, there are guidelines at this corner for the Hemphill/Berry Urban Village. Those guidelines are in place to spur development at this intersection. There are a few historic buildings and houses at the intersection and in the surrounding neighborhoods, but I don't think any properties are officially designated as historic. I think the big issue here is that they don't want to see a redevelopment of the property to look like the existing Safeway store that is now part of Travis Avenue Baptist Church. The existing building on the site sits as far back as possible from the major intersection and the only windows on the old store face the large parking lot in front.

[John T Roberts]

There are some new twists in the development of the Urban Village at Berry and Hemphill. Channel 8 reports that the neighborhood and Walmart are having trouble in negotiating the construction of the new Walmart Neigbhorhood Market on the site of an existing former Safeway grocery store. Neighbors want the new store to conform to the Urban Village guidelines, yet Walmart wants variances. Walmart is now threatening to move into the existing building instead of building a new one. If they move into the old store, then nothing about it has to comply with the Urban Village guidelines. They can just reopen the building as a grocery as it exists now, set way back from Berry and Hemphill Streets, jammed up against the two neighborhood streets and it only has windows facing the parking lot.

Here's a link to Casey Norton's story on the redevelopment.
http://www.wfaa.com/...-137926053.html

There will be a meeting about the project at 6:00 PM on Tuesday, January 24th at the building. The address is 717 W. Berry Street.

[hannerhan]

There are some new twists in the development of the Urban Village at Berry and Hemphill. Channel 8 reports that the neighborhood and Walmart are having trouble in negotiating the construction of the new Walmart Neigbhorhood Market on the site of an existing former Safeway grocery store. Neighbors want the new store to conform to the Urban Village guidelines, yet Walmart wants variances. Walmart is now threatening to move into the existing building instead of building a new one. If they move into the old store, then nothing about it has to comply with the Urban Village guidelines. They can just reopen the building as a grocery as it exists now, set way back from Berry and Hemphill Streets, jammed up against the two neighborhood streets and it only has windows facing the parking lot.

Here's a link to Casey Norton's story on the redevelopment.
http://www.wfaa.com/...-137926053.html

There will be a meeting about the project at 6:00 PM on Tuesday, January 24th at the building. The address is 717 W. Berry Street.

If you ask me, this is a case of the anti Wal-Mart crowd getting more than a little too zealous. Now is the time to back off and let Wal-Mart build a new store that might not be perfect, but is miles better than the current building. Be practical people.

[RD Milhollin]

If you ask me, this is a case of the anti Wal-Mart crowd getting more than a little too zealous. Now is the time to back off and let Wal-Mart build a new store that might not be perfect, but is miles better than the current building. Be practical people.

If you ask me it is a case of the corporate mega-conglomerate using threats it has no intention of carrying through to push its way into the neighborhood. The residents there are right to protect their area, if Walmart did not KNOW they would make an acceptable profit at the corner location they would be out paving the suburbs as they usually do. In the far-fetched, bizarre, and virtually unprecedented world that has Borg-Mart moving into an old building there might be enough of a local outcry that business there would suffer, or at least not meet target profitability. Keep in mind all the twenty-year-old mega-shells that Walmart has abandoned all across the country to build new stores in more preferred locations, usually pitting town against town and winning tax concessions in the process, thus robbing the tax base. Seems there is a short history of South Side activism in pushing for development that conforms to the ideal of what the people there would want their community to look like: wasn't there a bank that was going to go all suburban but finally at least built a facsimile front to conform to community expectations?

And no, I don't frequent Walmart, I prefer to find local suppliers like fresh food markets, etc. to patronize rather than the, well, you know the rest. The "neighborhood market" is an interesting approach by the evil empire, and if it brings convenience to city dwellers who are not being adequately served by local businesses than that is fair game. Playing a fair game would be a change for these guys....

[hannerhan]

The "neighborhood market" is an interesting approach by the evil empire, and if it brings convenience to city dwellers who are not being adequately served by local businesses than that is fair game.

Seems to me that's the case here. We're obviously on different sides of the Wal-Mart argument and that's not worth debating, but it's pretty clear that this neighborhood is underserved. It will be a shame in my mind if the new building doesn't get built, and the "evil empire" chooses to renovate a crappy design/setup instead, to the detriment of the neighborhood, all because some people thought the proposed design wasn't "perfect." What was it that Voltaire said about perfect being the enemy of the good?

[John T Roberts]

First of all, I wanted to say that I did not attend the meeting. I got home and decided it was too rainy to get back out.

Here is my problem with allowing all of the variances that Walmart wants for this project. The city and the surrounding neighborhoods set up the design guidelines for this Urban Village. Walmart will be requesting several variances and from what I understand, their design does not fully meet the guidelines. If the determining boards or city staff allow those variances, then that could set a precedence in other design districts that basically any variance will be granted. Possibly, any developer in these districts could use the Walmart as an example and say that the city should grant them the same exemptions. This could lead to a watering down of all design guidelines. I will admit that Walmart is trying to do the right thing by demolishing a completely pedestrian unfriendly and suburban "big box" and building a similar sized building that is "better" urban design. This is an expensive proposition when Walmart could re-use the existing building and do nothing but reopen it as a grocery store.

Hannerhan, I wrote this before you made your last reply, but I didn't hit the "post" button until after yours showed up. I should have more later.

[Joshw]

Where I currently live, the Fossil Creek/North Fort Worth area, there is a Neighborhood Wal-Mart right near my house on Basswood. It's basically what Krogers, Albertsons, etc. used to be, a grocery store. There is a Pharmacy inside, and a aisle or two for beauty stuff and home cleaning supplies, but that is really it. It's still a wee bit dirty like any Wal-Mart, but it's not bad, honestly.

If Walgreens can take a hint, on 28th street, and build something to look like something from the Stockyards, Wal-Mart can too. Wal-Mart has a big enough name they can get away with being in a building that looks old but be new inside. People will love it even more for that. NO ONE loves Wal-Mart because each of their stores look the same inside and and out, everywhere.

[RenaissanceMan]

The sad part about all of this is that it is so incredibly easy for a developer such as WalMart to achieve what this kind of a design district is trying to support and (could be) no more costly.

It is not that the supporters of the urban village are trying to create some sort of faux old-timey environment or that they want WalMart to put gold leaf on its outdoor signage. It's that they are trying to create a walkable environment with predictable and cohesive development patters using criteria that have been proven to support just that. In other words, they want their neighborhood to feel (shockingly) like a neighborhood rather than as a place to pull off the road and into the parking lot of your one destination before getting back in your car and driving away.

They simply are asking that the building, which is on a critically important site at the corner of a major intersection, to be placed up to the sidewalk alongside the street with enough windows so that people walking down that sidewalk feel like it's okay for them to be there and that they are not walking along the back end of the retailer. People don't typically enjoy walking alongside a wide open sea of parking, so if you are trying to build a cohesive pedestrian-friendly environment, it makes perfect sense to require a developer such as WalMart to respect this by placing their building up along the side walk, with parking in the rear. It doesn't take Renzo Piano to reconfigure the architecture on a project like this. You simply move the building forward, add additional windows and adjust the placement of the entrances. Parking also is not a big hurdle on this. You put it in the rear of the building (again supported by minimal reconfiguration of the design). I seriously doubt that drivers will think that there is not enough parking. That fear should evaporate the moment they see the WalMart sign.

Again, this has little to nothing to do with matters of taste or design. To quote Duany, "It's not that it's ugly. It's that it doesn't work." It's about the building's placement and the building's interaction with its surroundings. This is something that can be hard for a lot of developers, particularly major developers who use a standard design with a highly predictable sales performance that is easy to sell to lenders or to their Finance departments, to take off their blinders long enough to fully appreciate. This can and should be done for this neighborhood, so here's hoping that the Zoning Commission doesn't back down on this one.

[pmd1]

There are some new twists in the development of the Urban Village at Berry and Hemphill. Channel 8 reports that the neighborhood and Walmart are having trouble in negotiating the construction of the new Walmart Neigbhorhood Market on the site of an existing former Safeway grocery store. Neighbors want the new store to conform to the Urban Village guidelines, yet Walmart wants variances. Walmart is now threatening to move into the existing building instead of building a new one. If they move into the old store, then nothing about it has to comply with the Urban Village guidelines. They can just reopen the building as a grocery as it exists now, set way back from Berry and Hemphill Streets, jammed up against the two neighborhood streets and it only has windows facing the parking lot.

Here's a link to Casey Norton's story on the redevelopment.
http://www.wfaa.com/...-137926053.html

There will be a meeting about the project at 6:00 PM on Tuesday, January 24th at the building. The address is 717 W. Berry Street.

If you ask me, this is a case of the anti Wal-Mart crowd getting more than a little too zealous. Now is the time to back off and let Wal-Mart build a new store that might not be perfect, but is miles better than the current building. Be practical people.

[pmd1]

RennaissanceMan summed it up very well in his post. This is not an anti Wal-Mart issue - it's about the visioning that the Hemphill/Berry neighborhood did starting in 2007. Today we have an urban village designation and a set of guidelines to go along with it - just like 16 other urban villages in Fort Worth. Fernando Costa(Asst.City Manager) has done some amazing planning work since his arrival in FW. Through the visioning sessions held across FW, we have development guidelines (in place) that support the urban village master plans. It is very disheartening to heart that someone in 'pre-planning' at the city advised Wal-Mart to apply for variances rather than to stress and educate them as to the requirements of the urban village. Wal-Mart does know what an urban store is. They've don't several in Chicago, NY and LA. When asked at the last Zoning Hearing if Wal-Mart had ever don't urban stores, their local engineering firm representative said no, when pressed by a Zoning Board member who was looking at examples on-lined, the representative said -'not any in Texas'

Its time to do this right. Weakening the Hemphill/Berry Urban Villages with the requested variances only opens the door to 16 other diluted urban villages and their ultimate failure. I trust that the Zoning Board will listen, understand and support the guidelines in place and support the vision our neighborhood has worked so hard to put into place.

[pmd1]

I heard too that HEB Grocery(TX) is interested in the site too, so it's not like Wal-Mart is the only game in town. A lot of grocery chains are looking at inner city store opportunities. Don't forget that Travis Ave. Baptist Church has embraced the mix-use concept of the urban village in their consolidated master plan. They have plans for senior housing above retail along their east frontage on Hemphill. Wouldn't it be great to reinforce a walkable community for these folks.

[elpingüino]

Walmart tinkers with the plan some more, the Star-Telegram reports:
http://blogs.star-te...south-side.html

[sparq]

Do not tinker [here or there] but they should conform the urban village guidelines without any difficulty - check this page.

[pmd1]

One additional concern the neighborhood has regarding Wal-Mart ignoring the Urban Village is this:
When asked if they could acquire the small strip center along Berry Street and bring their new store up to the street per the urban village guidelines, Wal-Mart said the center owner was not interested in selling. Because of this, Wal-Mart said they then need the new store at the rear of the site. A prudent observer indicated that they bet if Wal-Mart got the parking and setback variances they wanted, they would acquire the Berry facing strip center and build a gas station at the corner. Folks this is how you gut an 'urban village'. It's block busting at it's finest. The neighborhood and Berry Street Initiative asked Wal-Mart and Travis Avenue Baptist Church to consider preserving the Berry Street block face in order to maintain the opportunity for true street facing development. (e.g. look at the Montgomery Plaza on 7th as a scalable model where you have development at the street with access to Target beyond). The Dunaway rep at the 06 Feb meeting was non-pulse but said he would take it back to Wal-Mart. We hope that our elected representative and the Zoning Board see and share our concerns because their actions will greatly affect all of the City's Urban Villages.

[RenaissanceMan]

A prudent observer indicated that they bet if Wal-Mart got the parking and setback variances they wanted, they would acquire the Berry facing strip center and build a gas station at the corner. Folks this is how you gut an 'urban village'.

Nailed it.

Again... so much time, effort and resources wasted (for the City and for Walmart) over something that has such simple and inexpensive solutions. I truly hope the City doesn't cave on this one. It's a spectacle, but one with particularly significant consequences for a neighborhood that will far outlive a Walmart that will be fully amortized in seven years.

[Joshw]

A prudent observer indicated that they bet if Wal-Mart got the parking and setback variances they wanted, they would acquire the Berry facing strip center and build a gas station at the corner. Folks this is how you gut an 'urban village'.

Nailed it.

Again... so much time, effort and resources wasted (for the City and for Walmart) over something that has such simple and inexpensive solutions. I truly hope the City doesn't cave on this one. It's a spectacle, but one with particularly significant consequences for a neighborhood that will far outlive a Walmart that will be fully amortized in seven years.

All it takes it one. The South Main St Village lost steam because of the Street Car, and sadly is all but still mostly abandoned (abit, a little cleaner than before). Berry/Hemphill folks need to challenge the City and demand the Urban Village they said they would bring there. If they believe, they will push back against Wal-Mart. Not to start a hating binge on WM, but I've seen them push and push and push until someone gives in. We can't give in.

[elpingüino]

The zoning commission denied Walmart's request this morning, the Star-Telegram reports: http://www.star-tele...ion-denies.html

"Commissioners said they were troubled by the idea of setting a “precedent” in granting Walmart waivers it wants on the site."

[sparq]

@pmd1 - it would be nice if HEB would reconsider this site: Urban Village Central Market.

[Roger_H]

There are some new twists in the development of the Urban Village at Berry and Hemphill. ... Walmart is now threatening to move into the existing building instead of building a new one. If they move into the old store, then nothing about it has to comply with the Urban Village guidelines. They can just reopen the building as a grocery as it exists now, set way back from Berry and Hemphill Streets, jammed up against the two neighborhood streets and it only has windows facing the parking lot...

So, let's say Walmart gives up and goes away. That means I could buy the existing building and open up, oh, maybe a thrift store, washateria, pawn shop, or liquor store without meeting any type of Urban Village standards?

[pmd1]

Roger - I get your point but let ask this - are you so willing to drop the urban village concept for the first business that comes into the picture. Travis Avenue Baptist Church(TABC) did not have the building up for sale Wal-Mart approached them. There is enough going on in the real estate world in our area because these folks know about the Berry/Cleburne Rail Station and the success of TCU (moving to the Big 12). Berry is a corridor to TCU.Certainly its not all great today but we can mold it.Develop wants to be around this emerging growth area. Too, TABC recently unveiled their campus master plan which shows retail with senior housing above along Hemphill Street just north of Berry - don't you think that the Church would be concerned what would go on next to them.

Yes it can be nerve-wracking trying to read tea leaves here but Fort Worth believes that 17 urban villages do hold the key to our neighborhood vitality.

Let's not forget what has happen in the area; TABC has built an new education building, a new welcome center, acquired the gas station at the NW corner of Hemphill and Berry, has developed a new master plan embracing the urban village, OLV Convent has been converted to apartments and lofts, Berry Street improvements are on-going and Hemphill Street improvements begin the end of this month. We are making progress.

[Roger_H]

pmd1:

I am not familiar enough with either the current Mixed-Use zoning regulations, or Walmart's specific plan, to honestly answer your question.

As you correctly observed, I was pointing out that denying Walmart's application is not without risk. Just because there was not a "For Sale" sign in front of the building does not mean the church is not interested in selling. It sounds like the church has spent considerable time, and money, developing a plan for their future. The fact that so soon after beginning to implement this plan, they are willing to sell this facility, indicates to me that they don't see this building as critical to their future. If that is the case, they should sell it. In fact, being a non-profit, if it no longer meets their needs, they have a moral obligation to sell it, and put the money towards their core mission.

I've attended Planning and Zoning Commission meetings all over the metroplex for years. Far too many commission members assume that if they deny a plan, the developer will simply come back with one they like better, or, another developer will come along shortly with a better plan. Sometimes that does happen. Oftentimes it does not.

In this case, there is a greater downside to denying Walmart's application. That is the existing building, to which the Mixed-Use regulations do not apply. I think I posted in this topic before that I'm sure Walmart knew what the property was zoned, when they signed the contract. So I have no real sympathy for their variances. On the other hand, we need to remember the real possibility that sending Walmart away may have an effect on this property that none of us desires. There are plenty of cases where overzealous regulations, and unbending city officials, have stagnated development. Let's hope this is not one of them.

It's my understanding the neighbors actually want the Walmart, just on their terms. It's safe to assume Walmart anticipated making some changes towards meeting the regulations. I hope both sides will give a little more, and make a deal they both say they want, come together.

[pmd1]

Roger - Good points. I do want to say that for me this is not an anti-WalMart issue. Tarrant County has about 130 stores - this is Wal-Mart friendly area. An idea was passed to TABC and Wal-Mart to protect the panhandle area of the site up at Berry Street. This would allow the desired development up on Berry with the Wal-Mart at the rear of the site. I don't see this as a Wal-Mart 'give me.' It should be leasable space, it could have some incubator businesses in it. It could be a lot of good things and Wal-Mart could be a huge part of this. Say WalMart developed this area and the building was 40-50' deep( typical small retail depth) with shared parking behind the building for this building or the Wal-Mart Store. Neither TABC or Wal-Mart were interested. This seemed like a good approach. A similar scalable model is the Montgomery Wards development on aw 7th. ( that development was not an urban village when it was done.)

John Roberts - I have a sketch idea for this. I'd like to send for posting. Do you post sketches?

[John T Roberts]

Sure, I will post sketches. Please send them in a JPG format for direct viewing on the forum, or a PDF file if you don't mind our viewers downloading it. I will host the sketch at fortwortharchitecture.com as a record of your idea and for site contributions.

[elpingüino]

In this case, there is a greater downside to denying Walmart's application. That is the existing building, to which the Mixed-Use regulations do not apply. ... On the other hand, we need to remember the real possibility that sending Walmart away may have an effect on this property that none of us desires. There are plenty of cases where overzealous regulations, and unbending city officials, have stagnated development. Let's hope this is not one of them.

Sure enough, Wal-Mart now says it will rehab the old building if it loses the zoning case.

Yes, Wal-Mart's plan that the Zoning Commission shot down could have been improved, but I'd say it was sure better than this.

[Thurman52]

I have to say, the latest presentation is better than just rehabbing the current building.

[RD Milhollin]

Sure enough, Wal-Mart now says it will rehab the old building if it loses the zoning case.

Threat? Bluff?

[pmd1]

Using the existing building has always been and option. Funny that Wal-Mart originally told the neighborhood that the existing building was unusable. Now suddenly it is. If you want a Wal-Mart there, why do you care what is looks like right? Wal-Mart is in highly competitive grocery store market where what store looks like matters.if they slap a sign on that existing building and call it a neighborhood grocery, it won't last long. That's what Wal-Mart calls being a good neighbor!!

[pmd1]

Here's a good article on urban grocers. bettercities.net/article/urban-grocers-proliferate

[pmd1]

http://bettercities....ers-proliferate

Sorry - let's try this link

[jefffwd]

Which had you rather have?

[pmd1]

Wal-Mart wants to make it that simple. They certainly need to take the title off the bottom image because they have killed the Berry-Hemphill Urban Village that our neighborhood worked for. They know most folks want instant gratification and will accept less at the least threat of challenge. They put in a $200.00 bike rack, put 4 tables in a 7' wide corridor and put glazing in an outdoor cart storage area and call it an urban market - guess you win.

[David Love]

I think it's just a smart way to whip up a LOT of free press for a new store location and the longer you're in front of the city council the more press they get.

I was looking at a building in that area last year, pretty bleak area if you ask me.

[Roger_H]

Threat? Bluff?

I say it is a bluff. If rehabbing the old building were an acceptable option, Walmart would have pursued that from the start.
In the time Walmart has spent at hearings, they could have closed the deal and been well underway with remodeling the building by now.

[John T Roberts]

There was an opinion piece in today's Star-Telegram that was posted during lunch on their web site. The link is below.

http://www.star-tele...rt-are-too.html

[John T Roberts]

Last night, the City Council voted to delay the Zoning case until March 6th.

[pmd1]

Last night, neighborhoods to the east and south of South Hemphill Heights all but killed any attempted to hold on to the Urban Village. They bought into Wal-Mart's line of 'this is the best your going to get'. They criticized the very people working hardest to improve the area and bring in good development. Wal-Mart sought to drive a wedge into the stakeholders and started twisting it. There is also a another developer working on a deal nearby and he has a real interest in seeing the urban village busted. He was whipping up folks to get behind Wal-Mart to get their variances. It's hard to achieve anything when people's thresholds for improvement are so low. Then they criticize nearby areas for getting better projects. They don't seem to realize that you have to fight for a higher standard; for higher quality. As a resident of the area, I now feel that our fate of low expectations has been solidified by a few. Too, it was amazing that flyers were put out in the neighborhood by Wal-Mart folks saying that if you want the Wal-Mart, you better show up at the Council Meeting. It's been sad to see how the church has stayed on the sidelines and watched the neighborhoods fight it out. It's clear what they want is the sale over any concern for their neighbors. They really could have made a difference and help achieve a win-win. Am am very proud of the Zoning Commission and the work they did last week. They understand the impact these issues are going to have on other urban villages. Zoning stood firm.

[Volare]

If this is allowed to occur, perhaps they should consider yanking the urban village designation in that area.

[mmiller2002]

Y'all certainly sound like you're much more educated and informed on this kind of thing than I am, but maybe it's a case of getting the area going. Maybe if you lived there you'd understand better. I don't know. Maybe its baby steps. There sure are a lot of other villagey places that are more established for investors to go to.