33 replies to this topic

[RD Milhollin]

If we had these same "leaders" with these same ideas back in the 1960s, we never would have built DFW International Airport.

I say, screw 'em, swallow our pride and merge The T with DART.

I have thought the same before, but refrained from posting. Now is the time for leaders of Fort Worth and surrounding cities to approach DART about joining. Fort Worth might be able to keep a separate bus system, but it would need to operate in the same mode as Dallas' system, which (from my admittedly limited experience with it) seems to work much better than the T. It would be nice to ask DART to change its name to reflect a more regional service area, but we would be very late getting aboard and would have to settle for whatever the DART Board might decide to do. A regional system with less need for changing trains would make more sense than several incompatible platforms. As much as I might hate to admit it, Dallas has been successful in implementing sustainable transportation and Fort Worth hasn't. Fort Worth will need this sort of system, but appears unable to get the ball rolling. It is time to join with a winner. (ducking)

[Keller Pirate]

If we had these same "leaders" with these same ideas back in the 1960s, we never would have built DFW International Airport.

I say, screw 'em, swallow our pride and merge The T with DART.

I have thought the same before, but refrained from posting. Now is the time for leaders of Fort Worth and surrounding cities to approach DART about joining. Fort Worth might be able to keep a separate bus system, but it would need to operate in the same mode as Dallas' system, which (from my admittedly limited experience with it) seems to work much better than the T. It would be nice to ask DART to change its name to reflect a more regional service area, but we would be very late getting aboard and would have to settle for whatever the DART Board might decide to do. A regional system with less need for changing trains would make more sense than several incompatible platforms. As much as I might hate to admit it, Dallas has been successful in implementing sustainable transportation and Fort Worth hasn't. Fort Worth will need this sort of system, but appears unable to get the ball rolling. It is time to join with a winner. (ducking)

We could call the new system D-FART.

[RD Milhollin]

We could call the new system D-FART.

Again, I had thought of this before, but refrained from posting...

[Electricron]

The major problem with FWTA joining DART is the tax rate. FWTA collects a half penny sales tax while DART collects a penny. I doubt FWTA member cites would have any room under the State's sales tax cap to join DART, even if they wished.

That half penny is also the basis difference between why DART can finance rail better than FWTA.

[jefffwd]

How about MART? Metroplex Area Rapid Transit...

[Sam Stone]

The major problem with FWTA joining DART is the tax rate. FWTA collects a half penny sales tax while DART collects a penny. I doubt FWTA member cites would have any room under the State's sales tax cap to join DART, even if they wished.

That half penny is also the basis difference between why DART can finance rail better than FWTA.

That is true, but given the size of The T's tax base, I'm sure they could work something out. I mean, the revenue from Fort Worth's half cent is probably larger than the revenue from the full cent of most of DART's cities (except for Dallas of course). One thing that distinguishes Texas from some other places (like my current state of residence in the hellhole that is Indiana) is the willingness to bend the rules, find a loophole, or make a deal.

[Electricron]

That is true, but given the size of The T's tax base, I'm sure they could work something out. I mean, the revenue from Fort Worth's half cent is probably larger than the revenue from the full cent of most of DART's cities (except for Dallas of course). One thing that distinguishes Texas from some other places (like my current state of residence in the hellhole that is Indiana) is the willingness to bend the rules, find a loophole, or make a deal.

Per City-Data web site, here's a few sales tax revenues from various North Texas cities....
NOTE: *=Dallas County, **=Collin County. ~=Tarrant County
*Dallas = $198,441,000
~Fort Worth = $101,837,000
*Addison = $9,664,000
**Allen = $12,185,000
~Arlington = $60,476,000
*Balch Springs = $2,240,000
~Bedford = $9,334,000
*Carrollton = $19,533,000
*Cedar Hill = $10,174,000
~Colleyville = $1,519,000
*Coppell = $7,044,000
*DeSoto = $6,017,000
*Duncanville = $5,080,000
~Euless = $9,458,000
*Farmers Branch = $10,789,000
*Garland = $19,368,000
*Grand Prairie =$32,996,000
~Grapevine = $18,746,000
*Irving = $41,821,000
~Haltom City = $7,110,000
~Hurst = $17,146,000
*Lancaster = $9,935,000
~Mansfield = $10,101,000
**McKinney = $6,992,000
*Mesquite = $34,518,000
~North Richland Hills = $15,230,000
**Plano = $52,251,000
*Richardson = $21,045,000
~Richland Hills = $1,843,000
~Saginaw = $1,753,000
~Southlake = $12,399,000
~Watauga = $1,653,000
~White Settlement = $3,937,000

I know this list isn't all inclusive, never-the-less, it does show how much more sales taxes are collected in Dallas County vs Tarrant County. Don't forget, FWTA only collects half a cent, not a penny as the cities do. To expect FWTA to do as much as DART with less than 25% of the financial resources is asking too much. I don't believe a half cent sales tax provides enough financial resources to build and support both widespread bus and train programs.

Additionally, you can see by the numbers why DART's Red line reaches Plano, and why Irving warrants a separate line to DFW airport. You can also see why DART would love either/both Grand Prairie and/or Mesquite to join. An additional $30-60 Million would really balance DART's wish list budgets. That's a lot of yearly funds DART would love to have...

[johnfwd]

Maybe merging the T with DART makes economic sense in the short term, given the current geographical boundaries of the Metroplex. But ahead, 30-50 years, obviously will see population and commercial expansion of surrounding areas. Perhaps a north central Texas regional transit authority (in keeping with COG planning) is something to consider.

[RD Milhollin]

Maybe merging the T with DART makes economic sense in the short term, given the current geographical boundaries of the Metroplex. But ahead, 30-50 years, obviously will see population and commercial expansion of surrounding areas. Perhaps a north central Texas regional transit authority (in keeping with COG planning) is something to consider.

I think that a merged "DARTT" would be a de facto NCT RTA. Incentives could be offered for Denton to join in. I wonder if the S-T editorial guys are reading this thread?

[Sam Stone]

Maybe merging the T with DART makes economic sense in the short term, given the current geographical boundaries of the Metroplex. But ahead, 30-50 years, obviously will see population and commercial expansion of surrounding areas. Perhaps a north central Texas regional transit authority (in keeping with COG planning) is something to consider.

I think that a merged "DARTT" would be a de facto NCT RTA. Incentives could be offered for Denton to join in. I wonder if the S-T editorial guys are reading this thread?

They can name it whatever they want if it gets us light rail.

[Electricron]

What FWTA really needs to be able to afford rail projects, is to get Arlington to join, and more than increase their yearly funds by half. But to even have a chance to win an election, they need to have a rail project heading directly towards Arlington. The Dorothy Spur heading for DFW Airport and the TRE line isn't going to win many votes in Arlington.

The major problem is that the UP mainline is the easiest corridor to connect Fort Worth and Dallas with Arlington. But the UP will fight tooth and nails against using their main line corridor. The I-30 corridor could have been used, but TXDOT didn't recently build rail in the center, they built HOV/Managed Lanes instead. That doesn't leave an easy to form corridor to build rail on to reach Arlington.....and I don't think the Corps of Engineers will approve a rail line in the Trinity River bottoms....

[Urbndwlr]

I actually think that the Fort Worth Transportation Authority (The T) and DART should remain separate. They can work together on projects for connectivity but it is a good thing for the T to be Fort Worth-centric.
The T simply needs additional funding mechanisms (this requires passing some proposed legislation at the state level) and it will be able to tackle some of these additional projects.

[RD Milhollin]

Article in the S-T about the final work being done on the DFW Airport Station for the DART Orange Line:

 

http://blogs.star-te...completion.html

 

However you want to rationalize or explain it, DART keeps getting results, and The T doesn't. I remain more convinced than ever that the best move for Fort Worth concerning future rail transit would be to remove The T from involvement and join DART:

 

http://www.dart.org

[John T Roberts]

How would you propose Fort Worth to come up with the one penny sales tax contribution?

[Austin55]

I'd be curious to see what DART could do with the T's budget. We aren't asking for or needing 85 miles of light rail, an extensive bus system, several streetcar lines, and a free tourist circulator (D-link). Just to get TexRail up would be enough. Maybe a few lines of streetcar in the future. 

[Thurman52]

How would you propose Fort Worth to come up with the one penny sales tax contribution?

It would an additional 1/2 cent as the T gets 1/2 now. Now grapevine would be out for sure as they pay 3/8 in for rail only.

So to gain 1/2 we need to loose crime tax the CCPD tax which is a no go for many or get the state to raise overall tax max. Still a no I bet

[renamerusk]

I actually think that the Fort Worth Transportation Authority (The T) and DART should remain separate. They can work together on projects for connectivity but it is a good thing for the T to be Fort Worth-centric....

 

I really agree with this sentiment; and disagree with merging with DART.  I believe that is essential to Fort Worth that the FWTA remains separate from DART so that it can develop into a system that works for Fort Worth.

 

"Getting results"  is a very easy way to be gulled into a perception that DART know what it is doing.   Credit should go to DART"s bus network of which I think DART does a more effective job meeting the transit needs of its common user.  The focusby DART upon transit oriented development (TOD) has come at the expense of the common user's need to access public transportation to get to their desired locations. Frequently, rail adds unnecessary time and inconvenience to one getting to one's destination.

 

Fort Worth is capable of having a better transit system than Dallas.  An example is Los Angeles who like Fort Worth has a 1/2 cents transit tax; and according to national ratings scores higher than Dallas with its 1 cent transit tax

 

Start by refocusing the FWTA upon serving its core constituency by putting in place a bus network that works for the common user; and not so much for suburbia; and not merging with DART.   Busses are thought to be unglamorous, but they can be very effective. Let DART continue to focus an inordinate amount of its resources on TOD/rail projects and while being ineffective in meeting core user needs better.  If what you want is good public transportation than Fort Worth does not really need a TOD-first strategy, nor does it need to adopt ideas from another city that may or may not be working for a vast majority of the people being taxed.

 

1/2 Cents Transit Tax: Fort Worth and Los Angeles

 

http://www.thetransp...nto-the-future/

 

http://thinkprogress...transportation/

 

 

Fort Worth over everyone.

 

Also, it looks like the majority of California's transit agencies are supported by a 1/2 cent tax.

 

http://www.boe.ca.go...-districts.html

[Fort Worthology]

 

"Getting results"  is a very easy way to be gulled into a perception that DART know what it is doing.   Credit should go to DART"s bus network which I think it does a more effective job meeting the transit needs of its common user than rail.  The focus upon transit oriented development (TOD) has come at the expense of the common user's need to access public transportation to get to their desired locations; and frequently, rail adds unnecessary time to is getting to one's destination.

 

 

 

 

What are you basing this on?  I'd say that not only does DART have a better bus system than The T (not that DART's is remarkable in any way, it's just that The T's is so terrible), but I would not say that DART's rail comes at the expense of the "common user's need" or is solely about development.

 

A few years ago I'd have been in favor of keeping The T independent, but years of incompetence on the part of both The T and the Fort Worth City Council makes me want to just metaphorically burn it all down and go begging to Dallas for some basic skill.

[RenaissanceMan]

I can appreciate the sentiment, but in this case I have a slight preference for the devil I know over the devil I don't. While, theoretically, yes, merging The T with Dart could finally lead to a world-class or even halfway decent transit system in Fort Worth, I could also envision a situation in which DART never seems to have funds set aside for the western half of the service area and Fort Worth projects always take a back seat (despite any amount that may be contributed) to projects in the heart of the "Dallas region." There would be just too many instances where it would be politically or economically convenient to stack the deck in Dallas's favor and Fort Worth (though no longer by its own ineptitude or lack of political will) would continue to have a sub-par or practically non-existent transit system. While I think that there is A LOT that needs to be improved about the way that Fort Worth and The T approach the issue of transit, especially rail transit, I believe that merging the two authorities would, over the long term, set Fort Worth up to become DART's neglected stepchild.

[renamerusk]

What are you basing this on?  I'd say that not only does DART have a better bus system than The T (not that DART's is remarkable in any way, it's just that The T's is so terrible), but I would not say that DART's rail comes at the expense of the "common user's need" or is solely about development.....A few years ago I'd have been in favor of keeping The T independent, but years of incompetence on the part of both The T and the Fort Worth City Council makes me want to just metaphorically burn it all down and go begging to Dallas for some basic skill.

 

 

I understood the question being presented in this thread is whether one agrees with or disagrees with the FWTA merging into DART.  I believe that  merger would be a mistake and that it is too earlier to make that decision.  Most of us acknowledge that DART has a better bus system than FWTA; a concession that I have already made and given credit to in my remarks; although per capita, is that really a fair concession when FWTA operates at half the tax rate then the DART system?

Proving that DART rail comes at the expense "of the common user" is a somewhat difficult position to defend because the bus network has been systematically woven into the rail network. However it does not deter some consideration that DART rail comes at the expense of the more likely and needy users of its system - the working class, the poor and the elderly;  and is worth a debate.  Base it on my intuition: DART is at risk, if not already there, of becoming more a development agency than a transit agency. 

 

Which came first: Bus network or rail network; and which would you imagine has taken a back seat?  DART is just now getting around to updating an aged fleet of diesel bus with more efficient and a nicer LNG fleet of bus that will ultimately make riding their bus a more pleasant experience.  DART lags far behind Fort Worth's  bike network; it can not transport large amounts of riders for special events, like bowl games.  DART can efficiently move a fraction of the overall workforce to specific locations, but this is with the help of a fairly successful bus network.  Its not that I am against growth; but its more honest to call something for what it is.  Putting developers plans ahead of the needs of the more dependent users' tax money and fees is wrong when your goal should be aiding such people to getting to their destination quickly and frequently.

I am frustrated with the path that FWTA has taken and continues to take emphasizing as its priority to develop TEXRail on the premise of its TOD potential.  No one will admit it outright, but I believe that the TEXRail proponents were instrumental in sabotaging a more transit friendly streetcar and bus network that would have been possible had it not been derailed.  With federal money already in hand, FWTA with Council approval, squandered a golden opportunity to set their sights upon TEXRail perceived “gold”.

I am not so sure that FWTA is incompetent as much as I am more sure that FWTA is under the influences of developers, DART and those who seek to profit from a DART-like system being overlaid in Fort Worth.  It may be that FWTA eventually becomes DART-west; I would be opposed for more reasons then I will offer at this time.  I think that FWTA can do much better if it is directed to do so.

As for the skills FWTA should seek, the agency is more likely to find the skills that it needs to become an effective agency from any of the majority of transit agencies in California who also operate on a 1/2 cent tax rate identical to FWTA.  The California agencies also receive higher ratings as transit agencies than does DART.  Begging DART for answers to how to make FWTA work will only get you the same misleading results that DART is having, TOD at the expense of common users with twice the cost,  and mediocre user satisfaction or ambivalence.
 

Sorry for the rant!

[Fort Worthology]

I wish I wasn't so jaded and cynical that "setting Fort Worth up to become DART's neglected stepchild" didn't seem like an improvement over the current situation.

[renamerusk]

I can appreciate the sentiment, but in this case I have a slight preference for the devil I know over the devil I don't.... While I think that there is A LOT that needs to be improved about the way that Fort Worth and The T approach the issue of transit, especially rail transit, I believe that merging the two authorities would, over the long term, set Fort Worth up to become DART's neglected stepchild.

 

 Well stated.  And to be sure, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that you could be right.

 

I wish I wasn't so jaded and cynical that "setting Fort Worth up to become DART's neglected stepchild" didn't seem like an improvement over the current situation.

 

And I do hear and appreciate your sentiment, but to throw out the baby with the bath water is not the right solution.  Do transit for transit sake; development will follow a good plan that works for everyone and not just a few.

[Keller Pirate]

1/2 Cents Transit Tax: Fort Worth and Los Angeles.  I don't think this is correct, even the link you provided shows 3 separate 1/2 cent transit taxes for Los Angeles County.  I believe 1/4 cent of the state sales tax is also earmarked for transit as well as a portion of the California gasoline tax.  There is way more money floating around Los Angeles County than you think.  Don't forget, the bus riders in Los Angeles sued Metro because they were spending too much on rail and cutting back on bus routes.  It's hard to believe, but people in Southern California are huge bus riders

 

The suggestion that the 1/2 cent Crime Control Tax be done away with and used to bring up the total transit tax in Fort Worth to a full cent is a good idea, but I don't see anyway the PD or the council will let that happen.  My understanding is that it pays for all the new vehicles for the PD as well as money for other projects.  If the voters did away with the CCPD the council would have to increase the tax 1/2 cent to pay out of the general fund for the stuff that comes out of the CCPD now.

 

I agree that DART should not join with the T at this time.  I believe that TEX Rail was held hostage by DART to get their Cotton Belt plan off the ground.  DART won't have the money to get the Cotton Belt up and running until sometime in the 2030's, they saw TEX Rail as chance to leverage Fort Worth's project into something bigger to benefit DART.  Now that the Cotton Belt plan is dead, have they even signed an agreement with the T for use of the tracks to Grapevine?  DART is not a friend of Fort Worth &Tarrant County.

[johnfwd]

Wouldn't this issue require a citywide voter referendum?  Voting on the sales tax contribution together with a proposed merger with DART?  And, if so, do you really believe Fort Worthians will accept what amounts to a Dallas take-over of our transit system?

[cberen1]

There has been a shake up at the T and I think you have to let those changes settle in so you can see if the city ultimately benefits from them.  It may or it may not work out for the better.  I don't think you can tell yet.  Either way, I believe unequivocally that a merger with DART would be a detriment to Fort Worth public transportation. 

[Dylan]

It's been a year since the board overhaul, and we're still in the same position as a year ago...

[Now in Denton]

What are you basing this on?  I'd say that not only does DART have a better bus system than The T (not that DART's is remarkable in any way, it's just that The T's is so terrible), but I would not say that DART's rail comes at the expense of the "common user's need" or is solely about development.

 

A few years ago I'd have been in favor of keeping The T independent, but years of incompetence on the part of both The T and the Fort Worth City Council makes me want to just metaphorically burn it all down and go begging to Dallas for some basic skill.

 

 

On this topic. I'm with you 100% I am so done and over with the T. I think a regional  system is the way to go. Somewhat like DFW. A mix of Fort Worth and Dallas board members. The penny sales tax issue had come up in past state sessions. But so far nothing has pass. I don't think it was even mention in the last session ? One has to ask ? What is in it for Dallas ?  They prove everyday they don't need Fort Worth . Only thing I see good for Dallas. If we have a regional system that serves 7 million people. It makes it easy for Federal dollars to come in.

 

And please stop the FART joke. It is a 30 year old bad joke. Plus If Fort Worth had followed Dallas in name it would be F(W)ART  not FART.

[cberen1]

It's been a year since the board overhaul, and we're still in the same position as a year ago...

 

Good point.  You should be able to overhaul transportation in a year.  Fire them and move on...

[JBB]

I wouldn't say they're in exactly the same position as a year ago. They have had a management change. It may not look like progress, but I would give him some time to change course.

[cberen1]

 

It's been a year since the board overhaul, and we're still in the same position as a year ago...

 

Good point.  You should be able to overhaul transportation in a year.  Fire them and move on...

 

 

And they only just now announced the new head man for the T.  So it really hasn't been a year.

 

Give it time.

[johnfwd]

From what I've read, the new "transportation czar" has a special interest in commuter rail.

[Volare]

FWIW, the CCPD comes up for voter re-approval in May.

 

That'll be a big dang NO for me.

[renamerusk]

The major problem with FWTA joining DART is the tax rate. FWTA collects a half penny sales tax while DART collects a penny. I doubt FWTA member cites would have any room under the State's sales tax cap to join DART, even if they wished.

 

A very good reason to keep the tax rate at 1/2 cent and to keep DART at bay.

 

In anticipation that DART would eventually emerged as the single regional transit authority in North Texas, it used its deeper pockets to purchase a rail corridor into Fort Worth via NE Tarrant County. 

 

Ownership of this corridor has been that DART has influenced many decisions about transit goals in Fort Worth and indirectly impeded the growth of a more efficient inner city network of transit for Fort Worth. When Fort Worth wakes up, it will find that this has been happening right beneath it nose and realizing that it has been the goal of DART all along to have commuter rail projects in Tarrant County become conduits for the networks that DART has built for itself. 

 

The solution: Since DART owns the commuter rail corridor, let DART own, pay and operate it, and all future regional commuter rail. I would not feel a "bit of shame" when a DART train pulls into the ITC as long as Fort Worth gets on with creating a first class inner city network of bus and streetcars to serve its population.

 

I strongly urge a NO vote to a merger; and instead urge that DARTcou ld be more forth right about its goal and should therefore foot the total bill for it grandiose plans alone - so what if you have to purchase a separate ticket if it means a better deal for Fort Worth.  Separate and local control should be our goal.
 

[Not Sure]

The solution: Since DART owns the commuter rail corridor, let DART own, pay and operate it, and all future regional commuter rail. I would not feel a "bit of shame" when a DART train pulls into the ITC as long as Fort Worth gets on with creating a first class inner city network of bus and streetcars to serve its population.

 

I like it. I can get behind this.

 

Give BNSF trackage rights from Tower 60 to Carrollton and it would be perfect.