167 replies to this topic

[Urbndwlr]

So what can we do as individuals in this community (but not individuals who are capable of actually building our own high rises)?

1) continue to support a premium (price) for downtown office locations - as employees or prospective employees actuall mention that you really would like to work there, even if it means paying more. If tenants are willing to pay premiums for space downtown, it will really help.

2) continue the dialog we're having here with those who do influence this (people who make the leasing decisions for their firms - large, small, or start-up) - if it is conventionally accepted that we as tenants INSIST upon good, well-concieved architectural design and that we'll pay more to be a part of it, it will go a long, long way. If developers think the public (including prospective tenants) don't really care about design, you can bet that the developers will build only utilitarian buildings.

3) support good downtown businesses - particularly good, interesting restaurants, the B&N, the theatres - as long as those thrive it will continue to stoke interest for more people to spend their days and nights downtown.

[hooked]

As far as where stuff could be built:
Parking lot next to the Tower.

Please, please, please - NO. We need green space. My doggie needs a place to run and play. I need a fountain, a place to sit and people-watch. My dream is to someday be able to throw a frisbee downtown without hitting a building.

[Fort Worthology]

Please, please, please - NO. We need green space. My doggie needs a place to run and play. I need a fountain, a place to sit and people-watch. My dream is to someday be able to throw a frisbee downtown without hitting a building.

If the planned Sundance Square plaza ever gets built, wouldn't that qualify?

[SLO]

Please, please, please - NO. We need green space. My doggie needs a place to run and play. I need a fountain, a place to sit and people-watch. My dream is to someday be able to throw a frisbee downtown without hitting a building.

If the planned Sundance Square plaza ever gets built, wouldn't that qualify?

the plaza is sorely needed, Sundance Square while its a great and lively place to go, isnt much of a square. Id love to see a real plaza, get rid of the ridiculous parking lot, lets create a real people place..........


Its only a matter of time before downtown booms, it is inevitable (and has already started). What was DT like 10-15 yrs ago...
Quality developments are whats most important, some height would be a plus but not necessary. Nothing wrong with a forest of mid rises (see Vancouver). A 1000 foot tower would look ridiculous and out of place in the current downtown. I dont quite understand the sentiment that DT is small or short for the size of FW...........

[David Love]

The mid rises have already started and I’m all but certain that key locations already have more than one set of eyes going over the numbers. What remains to be seen is if it’s going to be Texans doing the development.

If you’ve already invested heavily into downtown office space (why?) would you want to build anymore when you can demand more per square foot than many of our larger neighbors.

[Now in Denton]

In the year in review of the Fort Worth Business Journal. Is was stated that what is holding back an onslot of new constuction in DT Fort Worth is the high cost of constuction. "If" prices come back down. We will see a great deal of new constuction in DT Fort Worth.

Omni did ask for more money due to the increase in constuction. The cost of the hotel was 90 million now it's 120 million I think? Again it don't seem to be holding back other cities in America. I guess Fort Worth just plays be a different playbook ?

[David Love]

In the year in review of the Fort Worth Business Journal. Is was stated that what is holding back an onslot of new constuction in DT Fort Worth is the high cost of constuction. "If" prices come back down. We will see a great deal of new constuction in DT Fort Worth.

Omni did ask for more money due to the increase in constuction. The cost of the hotel was 90 million now it's 120 million I think? Again it don't seem to be holding back other cities in America. I guess Fort Worth just plays be a different playbook ?

I think it’s more excuses rather than reasons.

I also believe if the numbers were really as great as what is published, every local developer would be contractually calling dibs on every prospective construction spot downtown, in an attempt, to stem the deluge of out of state investment capital pouring in.

If the numbers really are as published, why does every large development or large company considering relocation have to “beg” the city for incentive cash?

[tamtagon]

I think Las Colinas represents the single biggest barrier to new office tower construction in downtown Fort Worth. The rapid population growth of Fort Worth & Tarrant Co. is almost entirely suburban family oriented and mostly occuring in the NE quadrant; the NE Tarrant & S Denton Counties population growth trend should continue for at least another generation or until the 'suburbanable' land gets used - which ever comes first.

The major infrastructure improvements slated for this area like the Grapeview Connector, commuter trains and more thoughtful, community-oriented masterplan design approach will increase the quality of life in this area despite the pressure from the 700,000-900,000 new residents coming to the countryside north and west of DFW airport. Already one of the country's top business expansion & relocation destinations, the thorough community planning in N Tarrant & S Denton counties will make North Texas will be even more desirable.

So with all this working for us, Las Colinas is going to get the nod over DTFW from the majority of company/corporate (re)location scouts with a new building in mind. There's tons of open prairie zoned for office space; highway and train access will be far superior; the central location broadens the employee neighborhood availability; and the more generic Las Colinas ambiance takes very little emotional committment versus a setting like DTFW with a very strong personality.

So, while I expect Las Colinas will caputure most of the area's new office space espansion, the unique character of downtown Fort Worth will be the foundation for a substantial expansion of office space there.

[Keller Pirate]

When I said I didn't think the Carnegie site was part of what I considered DT I was just speaking from my perception. The area over by the Library I think of as just being across the line from DT because it has been a easy place to find a parking spot and other than the Library there hasn't been anything for me to patronize west of Taylor at that part of town.

It just depends on what you are DT for and I guess I'm there for entertainment and that is outside the entertainment zone so I seen that as the edge of DT. If the Carnegie has some ground floor resturants or retail that will expand my perception of that area. I must admit that I don't go DT to shop and it would take something unique to draw me down for shopping because I can probably pass by most stores 2 or 3 times before arriving DT.

When the tornado hit the Tower it was supposed to be a crisis because of the loss of DT office space. Now nearly 7 years later the Tower is condo's and several other office buildings have or are going condo too. Where did all the businesses go that used to be in the Tower, TP building, Landmark and Neil P? Radio Shack and Pier 1 have built new buildings but as far as I know they don't rent space in them, yet.

Even though the occupancy rates are low there just must not be as much demand as I/we would assume for office space, because someone would have built it before now.

[Fort Worthology]

It just depends on what you are DT for and I guess I'm there for entertainment and that is outside the entertainment zone so I seen that as the edge of DT. If the Carnegie has some ground floor resturants or retail that will expand my perception of that area.

The Carnegie's entire ground floor (aside from the office lobby, of course) will be for retail/restaurant use.

When the tornado hit the Tower it was supposed to be a crisis because of the loss of DT office space. Now nearly 7 years later the Tower is condo's and several other office buildings have or are going condo too. Where did all the businesses go that used to be in the Tower, TP building, Landmark and Neil P? Radio Shack and Pier 1 have built new buildings but as far as I know they don't rent space in them, yet.

Well, Bank One/Chase went to their new building next door to the Tower, of course. The T&P was used as office space for HUD, I believe. Landmark - dunno. The Neil P. - also don't know.

[John T Roberts]

All of the T&P was leased by the Federal Government. When UPR left Burnett Plaza for Continental Plaza, they left a lot of space in that building open. Eventually, Anadarko bought them out and moved that company to the Woodlands and Carter+Burgess took most of the space. Back at Burnett Plaza, I think the government offices from both the T&P and the Neil P. Anderson Buildings consolidated their offices on the upper floors. I would not even count the offices from the Landmark Tower into any downtown equation because the building never had more than a 50% occupancy rate after the Continental National Bank moved out. Between 1982 and 1991, the tenants trickled out. The building was vacant from 1991 until its demolition.

[SLO]

In the year in review of the Fort Worth Business Journal. Is was stated that what is holding back an onslot of new constuction in DT Fort Worth is the high cost of constuction. "If" prices come back down. We will see a great deal of new constuction in DT Fort Worth.

Omni did ask for more money due to the increase in constuction. The cost of the hotel was 90 million now it's 120 million I think? Again it don't seem to be holding back other cities in America. I guess Fort Worth just plays be a different playbook ?

....cost of construction going up is very real. Developers are having a very difficult time holding bids and then having to scramble and try to get additional funding for projects already under construciton. Even that twin 53 story condo tower project in Sacramento I posted about, they have had to get an additional $30million to cover revised construction costs, even though they are already under construciton.

[SLO]

I think Las Colinas represents the single biggest barrier to new office tower construction in downtown Fort Worth. The rapid population growth of Fort Worth & Tarrant Co. is almost entirely suburban family oriented and mostly occuring in the NE quadrant; the NE Tarrant & S Denton Counties population growth trend should continue for at least another generation or until the 'suburbanable' land gets used - which ever comes first.

The major infrastructure improvements slated for this area like the Grapeview Connector, commuter trains and more thoughtful, community-oriented masterplan design approach will increase the quality of life in this area despite the pressure from the 700,000-900,000 new residents coming to the countryside north and west of DFW airport. Already one of the country's top business expansion & relocation destinations, the thorough community planning in N Tarrant & S Denton counties will make North Texas will be even more desirable.

So with all this working for us, Las Colinas is going to get the nod over DTFW from the majority of company/corporate (re)location scouts with a new building in mind. There's tons of open prairie zoned for office space; highway and train access will be far superior; the central location broadens the employee neighborhood availability; and the more generic Las Colinas ambiance takes very little emotional committment versus a setting like DTFW with a very strong personality.

So, while I expect Las Colinas will caputure most of the area's new office space espansion, the unique character of downtown Fort Worth will be the foundation for a substantial expansion of office space there.

I agree, places like Las Colinas are the easy way out. It takes a little more committment and long range view to go into downtown.

[Dismuke]

What is the cause of the increase in construction costs? A shortage of materials? Of labor?

[Dismuke]

When the tornado hit the Tower it was supposed to be a crisis because of the loss of DT office space. Now nearly 7 years later the Tower is condo's and several other office buildings have or are going condo too. Where did all the businesses go that used to be in the Tower, TP building, Landmark and Neil P? Radio Shack and Pier 1 have built new buildings but as far as I know they don't rent space in them, yet.

My question is where do the people who live in all the downtown housing and where will the people who will occupy the housing that is being planned and built work? I would assume downtown Fort Worth as the thought of living downtown and then getting on the highway to commute to work strikes me as being a bit odd? One of the problems with Fort Worth has always been that, while it is a very nice and charming place to live, the jobs tend to be concentrated in Dallas County making it necessary for many (such as myself) to commute. Has the number of jobs in downtown gone up in recent years in a similar proportion to the increase in downtown and near downtown housing?

As to downtown verses Los Colinas - I actually think downtown Fort Worth has certain significant advantages. The big advantage I see in Los Colinas would be if a company had lots of staff and/or clients that were very regularly going in and out of town. For such companies, being located near an airport can save time and money and I would think is a great selling point for Los Colinas.

On the other hand, a commute down 114 every day at rush hour is not a very pleasant experience. What is so nice about downtown Fort Worth is the abundance of housing options both in downtown and in the many very charming nearby neighborhoods in the West Side, the TCU area, Fairmount as well as some in other parts of town where one can be at work in just a few minutes without fighting traffic - and employees would even be able to go home for lunch in many cases. And the housing is available in a wide array of prices with stuff suitable for both CEOs with million dollar salaries all the way to something which would be nice and yet affordable to entry level employees making modest hourly wages. That is a pretty nice quality of life perk to be able to offer to one's employees.

Some have argued that Fort Worth lacks the allegedly "cool" night life Dallas supposedly offers. But I suspect that most people by the time they have advanced enough in a company to make decisions on matters such as relocations have outgrown the stage of life where going to nightclubs is a major concern. And for those who are into that sort of thing, most people do not go every night and when they do go it is after rush hour traffic has let up. One can be in Dallas in about 30 minutes during the evening. Does it make sense to spend an extra 30 minutes a day five days per week to commute to and from work just to save an occasional 30 minutes drive to a nightclub?

The same is true with regard to Fort Worth's lack of upscale shopping as compared with Dallas. Is it that much of a big deal to drive to Dallas to shop for the things that cannot be purchased in Fort Worth that one would be willing to swap it for a daily commute to and from the office in nasty traffic?

Seems to me that downtown Fort Worth would have a lot to offer a company seeking a great place to do business (compared with other states, at least) a place where it can offer a good quality of life to those employees who will relocate with it. One can stress all of the quality of life things that Fort Worth has going with regard to the residential aspect and still be able to sell whatever lifestyle amenities that Dallas has to offer as being but a short, half hour drive away. Plus, people who work in downtown Fort Worth get to look at the SBC Building and Fort Worth City Hall to remind them that they are in a real city complete with its fair share of urban blight!

[SLO]

What is the cause of the increase in construction costs? A shortage of materials? Of labor?

Demand had been the most significant, going back several years. There has been such a boom in construction throughout Asia that there has been shortages with virtually every building material. You name the material and its significantly more expensive than it was 1, 2, 3, years ago.
Fuel costs have compounded the problem, not only affecting transportation cost, but anything made with petroleum. PVC, asphalt, roofing, etc.
Copper has more than doubled in the last 12 months, affecting electrical wiring.
Even new home construction, I would guess raw cost is up 30% in the last 2 years.

[cberen1]

What is the cause of the increase in construction costs? A shortage of materials? Of labor?

Demand had been the most significant, going back several years. There has been such a boom in construction throughout Asia that there has been shortages with virtually every building material. You name the material and its significantly more expensive than it was 1, 2, 3, years ago.
Fuel costs have compounded the problem, not only affecting transportation cost, but anything made with petroleum. PVC, asphalt, roofing, etc.
Copper has more than doubled in the last 12 months, affecting electrical wiring.
Even new home construction, I would guess raw cost is up 30% in the last 2 years.

One of the issues is the cost of cement for concrete. Most of the cement used in this area comes out of Midlothian. The different owners of the cement mills in Midlothian have resisted increasing capacity fearing the collapse of the housing bubble. I think the truth is that they enjoy the higher pricing they've had for the last ten+ years and don't relish the thought of a new price war. During the late eighties and early nineties, cement was cheap around here.

Steel is also pretty high right now, but I don't know specifically why.

SLO is right to say that almost everything is more expensive now.

[Now in Denton]

In short China's need for steel and energy is what driving costs up. India may also follow with a hunger for steel and energy. But it is still great all around that they are opening thier markets.

Im starting to wonder about the Mandarin in Dallas. I think we should of seen a few floors of steel going up by now. I wonder are they starting to feel it? I still think it will be built, but I think it won't be as tall as planed. The sad part for Fort Worth. I don't see costs going down anytime soon.

[Dallastar]

In short China's need for steel and energy is what driving costs up. India may also follow with a hunger for steel and energy. But it is still great all around that they are opening thier markets.

Im starting to wonder about the Mandarin in Dallas. I think we should of seen a few floors of steel going up by now. I wonder are they starting to feel it? I still think it will be built, but I think it won't be as tall as planed. The sad part for Fort Worth. I don't see costs going down anytime soon.

No changes have been made as of yet, however, they are not due to start construction till this spring.

[Keller Pirate]

It would appear from John's response that the number of jobs DT has decreased over the last decade which means the investors have been right not to do much construction. Dismuke raises a question I have been wondering about. As the office buildings turn into homes where are these homeowners working? Are they commuting from DT to jobs? Where was Pier 1 before, I can't remember.

Construction costs have been high but commodity prices are falling as makets slow around the world, so if cost is the hold up we could expect to see that reason go away soon. Prices aren't ever going back to 1990's levels but they are coming down.

As for Omni. On the casino thread some folks thought a casino should be close enough to the convention center to get some of that business. I was wondering what kind of conventions Ft Worth attracts. I checked the convention website and their list of upcoming bookings. I was shocked to see how light weight they were. Church services, school graduations, lunchons. I didn't see anything that looked like it would pull in a bunch of folks with expense account money. I know Omni got a really good deal and basicly the city will pay them for building the hotel but if I was them I would be worried about getting enough business to earn their money back in tax rebates based on what goes on at the convention center now. Other than filling a hole in the skyline this could turnout bad unless the hotel really can improve the convention business.

We will have to revisit this in ten years to see how it turns out. I am betting when the tax rebates end, Omni will sell and pocket the money from their almost free hotel.

[Dallastar]

As for Omni. On the casino thread some folks thought a casino should be close enough to the convention center to get some of that business. I was wondering what kind of conventions Ft Worth attracts. I checked the convention website and their list of upcoming bookings. I was shocked to see how light weight they were. Church services, school graduations, lunchons. I didn't see anything that looked like it would pull in a bunch of folks with expense account money. I know Omni got a really good deal and basicly the city will pay them for building the hotel but if I was them I would be worried about getting enough business to earn their money back in tax rebates based on what goes on at the convention center now. Other than filling a hole in the skyline this could turnout bad unless the hotel really can improve the convention business.

We will have to revisit this in ten years to see how it turns out. I am betting when the tax rebates end, Omni will sell and pocket the money from their almost free hotel.

Keller Pirate, you bring up a very good question, I wondered this when they first announced the Hotel, but remember there are still revenue to be made from the Condo's, and also, just like Dallas, Dallas has lost a certain amount of conventions because they have no large hotel next to the convention center, and through there research they found that they would almost double the amount of conventions had they had at least a 1000 room hotel next to the convention center, I feel the same will happen with Ft. Worth, I think nobody even look at Ft. WOrth before because there were a limited amount of hotel rooms, but now with the Omni on its way I feel that this will change.

[Now in Denton]

Your so right Keller. I just read in a local DT Newspaper. That most conventions now in Fort Worth are religious in nature. Even thow thier welcome in DT Fort Worth. Thier not the best kind of conventioners to spend money.

The story went that short of hotel rooms and the reputation of sub quality rooms. Has put off better conventions into town. With Omni and remodels taking place they hope to change that. The Texas Republican Convention is coming back to Fort Worth. By the way is the largest state party convention in America. I think the California Democratic Convention is the second biggest.

[cberen1]

When UPR left Burnett Plaza for Continental Plaza, they left a lot of space in that building open. Eventually, Anadarko bought them out and moved that company to the Woodlands and Carter+Burgess took most of the space. Back at Burnett Plaza, I think the government offices from both the T&P and the Neil P. Anderson Buildings consolidated their offices on the upper floors.

AmeriCredit took over the top six floors of Burnett Plaza in 2000. Previously AmeriCredit had been outside of downtown. Most of the rest of the UPR space is occupied by US Health and an exploration company. I'm not sure when they got here, but the SEC has offices in Burnett around the 20th floor.

I don't think the overall number of jobs downtown has changed materially in the last several years.
Don't forget that XTO has filled up a lot of previously underutilized space. The loss of Bank One, the empty Transport Life building and the now vacant Tandy buildings are the only large blocks of office space now completely vacant that might not have been before. The addition of the Pier 1 and Radio Shack independant campuses (and ensuing back-fill), the relocation of Bank One Tower tennants to other buildings and the growth in oil and gas has probably kept things relatively flat to up on the jobs front.

Most (but not all) of the people I know who live downtown either work downtown or they don't have 9-5 jobs.

[Urbndwlr]

Re: Downtown job growth or loss since 2000:
I think the head count has increased. Part of that is simple observation - it is far more crowded here than it was 6 or 7 years ago. Downtown FW Inc could probably answer that question more accurately though.
I thought the amount of office space had actually grown.
Office space eliminate: Bank One Tower, Tandy Centers 1 and 2, T&P Building, Neil P Anderson Building (approx -1.6 MM SF)...
Office space gained: Pier 1 Imports building, Radio Shack campus, Bank One Building, State National Bank Bldg, The Tower office space (1 floor), now the Carnegie Tower and Two City Place (approx +2.2 MM SF), and many of our older buildings have been overhauled and substantially filled, mainly in the southern half of Downtown.

So what is the source of all this growth?
A lot of it is organic; that is, smaller firms that have been formed here or already existed that have grown along with the local economy. There are national firms that have established presences here as the city has grown large enough to justify offices here. These are typically small, however the cumulative effect is significant.

Downtown is an excellent location for small to medium sized businesses (up to 100 employees) to grow and recruit team members. Smart young people love environments such as this. Most economic growth does not come by way of massive company relocations, but rather from small entrepreneurial growth - which we have in large volumes. Big sterile business parks might be easy for multinational firms who pick up and
"shop" for new homes, however I would argue that it is the "real" city centers that have virban lives that are best positioned for the long run rather than the synthetic, sterile places such as Irving... especially when we are concerned about quality of growth, not just quantity of growth.

Dismuke: I think a lot of people who live downtown work in a wide variety of places just like those who live in other parts of town. I live downtown but work about 2 miles away. I don't necessarily agree with the bit about "most of the jobs are in Dallas County" - yes sure there are more positions in existence in Dallas than in Fort Worth, however there is a very robust, liquid labor market here. I cannot speak for each individual's career, however it is a good time to be a talented prospect in Fort Worth.

[cberen1]

it is a good time to be a talented prospect in Fort Worth.

Amen.

[Dallastar]

it is a good time to be a talented prospect in Fort Worth.

Amen.

I don't know the Ft. Worth or Tarrant county job market all that well, but I believe with all the growth that Tarrant County and Ft. Worth are experiencing I believe that is a fair and true statement, However, I work as a recruiter for a company in Dallas (I'd rather not name the company) off of central expressway (near North Park) and I am simply amazed by the number of people who work here that live in Ft. Worth or Tarrant County.
Not that I have problem with Ft. Worth or Tarrant County, but I couldn't imagine driving that far to work everyday. I would ask my co-workers who live in Ft. Worth why they drive so far to work or why don't they just move closer, and most are married with children, and tell me that the money is over here, but they live like a king in Ft. Worth (I don't think the housing market is that much different I could be wrong) some couldn't find a suitable job and some just love living in Ft. Worth. But the drive to them to Dallas everyday is like a minor inconvience, and they never complain about the drive. A few guys are waiting for the homes to sell and they plan to move closer, but most plan to stay.

[cberen1]

it is a good time to be a talented prospect in Fort Worth.

Amen.

I don't know the Ft. Worth or Tarrant county job market all that well, but I believe with all the growth that Tarrant County and Ft. Worth are experiencing I believe that is a fair and true statement, However, I work as a recruiter for a company in Dallas (I'd rather not name the company) off of central expressway (near North Park) and I am simply amazed by the number of people who work here that live in Ft. Worth or Tarrant County.
Not that I have problem with Ft. Worth or Tarrant County, but I couldn't imagine driving that far to work everyday. I would ask my co-workers who live in Ft. Worth why they drive so far to work or why don't they just move closer, and most are married with children, and tell me that the money is over here, but they live like a king in Ft. Worth (I don't think the housing market is that much different I could be wrong) some couldn't find a suitable job and some just love living in Ft. Worth. But the drive to them to Dallas everyday is like a minor inconvience, and they never complain about the drive. A few guys are waiting for the homes to sell and they plan to move closer, but most plan to stay.

I have some friends in that same position, but reversed. For them one of them works at EDS and the other is an attorney in FW. She drives every day from Plano to DTFW. That has to suck.

Personally I don't understand commuters anyway. Why spend that much time in a car every day. If my work took me to DT Dallas, I would move as close to DT as I could. I never want to tell my kids that I chose to drive 45 minutes twice a day rather spend that time with them. As it stands right now, it takes me longer to get from my car to my office than it does to get from my house to my parking garage. I like it that way.

[Urbndwlr]

it is a good time to be a talented prospect in Fort Worth.

Amen.

I don't know the Ft. Worth or Tarrant county job market all that well, but I believe with all the growth that Tarrant County and Ft. Worth are experiencing I believe that is a fair and true statement, However, I work as a recruiter for a company in Dallas (I'd rather not name the company) off of central expressway (near North Park) and I am simply amazed by the number of people who work here that live in Ft. Worth or Tarrant County.
Not that I have problem with Ft. Worth or Tarrant County, but I couldn't imagine driving that far to work everyday. I would ask my co-workers who live in Ft. Worth why they drive so far to work or why don't they just move closer, and most are married with children, and tell me that the money is over here, but they live like a king in Ft. Worth (I don't think the housing market is that much different I could be wrong) some couldn't find a suitable job and some just love living in Ft. Worth. But the drive to them to Dallas everyday is like a minor inconvience, and they never complain about the drive. A few guys are waiting for the homes to sell and they plan to move closer, but most plan to stay.

In what industry do they work?
Of course the going compensation rates depend on a number of factors. In most cases though, I think the difference between finding a good position close to home vs far from home is a timing one. That is, good opportunites ultimately emerge, it is just a matter of an individual's willingness to sustain the unsettling process of interviewing - many people snap up the first opportunity they see, even if it means suffering a long commute. One factor that would help mitigate the long commute culture would be to stop constantly building and expanding our freeways. A little traffic congestion is a natural occurance of a mature city. People ultimately will shift their behavior to adapt to the conditions.

[youngalum]

I live in Fort Worth and work in Downtown Dallas. Our office moved from the Hotels.Com building one year ago this week. That 7 mile difference in location is approx. 15-30 minutes in extra drive, each way.

I have worked for the same employer for 4+ years as an attorney. I can tell you right now I doubled my base salary by coming aboard with a Dallas firm. It typically is the same across the board with many jobs in that the pay scale of which Dallas is always higher (my wife is a controller with a Las Colinas PR firm and she wanted to move her employment back to Fort Worth--every job she was offered was 30% less in Fort Worth). Until Fort Worth improves this pay differential, the main jobs of Fort Worth will be entry level to middle management jobs with those who want upward $$ to have to move out of town or commute.

As far as housing goes. A typical house with 2500 sq feet, updated with a pool in Dallas is anywhere from $400K -$650k that I looked at compared to Fort Worth from $350k-$500k at 3000 sq feet, completely redone, pool and on a golf course. The home values in Fort Worth beat Dallas easily.

The commute is typically 45-1 hour each way. But it is an easy drive for me as it goes by faster than you think and you prepare or leave the day each way. BTW, a home in McKinney, etc. while technically shorter in distance is equal or longer commute because of overwhelming traffic going in and out of Dallas than the drive to Fort Worth.

The quality of life at this point is better than Dallas for me at least. Dallas has better #'s of restaurants, but that is the only difference. Essentially everything else is interchangeable as the same in either city.

[Willy1]

I live in Fort Worth and work in Downtown Dallas. Our office moved from the Hotels.Com building one year ago this week. That 7 mile difference in location is approx. 15-30 minutes in extra drive, each way.

I have worked for the same employer for 4+ years as an attorney. I can tell you right now I doubled my base salary by coming aboard with a Dallas firm. It typically is the same across the board with many jobs in that the pay scale of which Dallas is always higher (my wife is a controller with a Las Colinas PR firm and she wanted to move her employment back to Fort Worth--every job she was offered was 30% less in Fort Worth). Until Fort Worth improves this pay differential, the main jobs of Fort Worth will be entry level to middle management jobs with those who want upward $$ to have to move out of town or commute.

As far as housing goes. A typical house with 2500 sq feet, updated with a pool in Dallas is anywhere from $400K -$650k that I looked at compared to Fort Worth from $350k-$500k at 3000 sq feet, completely redone, pool and on a golf course. The home values in Fort Worth beat Dallas easily.

The commute is typically 45-1 hour each way. But it is an easy drive for me as it goes by faster than you think and you prepare or leave the day each way. BTW, a home in McKinney, etc. while technically shorter in distance is equal or longer commute because of overwhelming traffic going in and out of Dallas than the drive to Fort Worth.

The quality of life at this point is better than Dallas for me at least. Dallas has better #'s of restaurants, but that is the only difference. Essentially everything else is interchangeable as the same in either city.

I agree.... it has also been my experience that FW jobs pay MUCH less than similar jobs in Dallas. I make twice as much in Dallas as I could make in FW. Unfortunately, I disagree about the commute. It's a total nightmare to me... plus at over $2 a gallon for gas, it's ridiculous to me to pay more for the gas than for the car payment each month. Driving to Dallas every day results in filling up my SUV every 3 days at $50.00+ a pop!

I love FW, but the slow pace and the low paying jobs have resulted in my relocating to Dallas even thought I still own my home in FW. (I just can't let go of my expensive Monticello dirt) And, sorry for the "slow pace" thing, but I'm single and Dallas still beats FW hands down when it comes to night life, even though the gap is decreasing. But, on the flip side, FW is still a much better place to raise children, and if I had any, I'd be back in FW and driving to Dallas for work.

I hate that FW's job market sucks so bad. There are only a hand full of big employers (especially when compared to other large cities) and none of them really pay very well. I've been out of college for, well.... a while. And, I've never had a job in FW because I can't make nearly as much $ in FW as I have always made in Dallas. That's just a hard fact of life. Mayor Moncrief needs to work on attracting Fortune 500 companies to FW, along with their higher wages. The problem is, when company comes to FW, they lower their pay scale to "adjust down" to compensate for the lower cost of living. IMO, FW's weak job market is one of the largest problems the city faces.

Sure we're growing like gangbusters, but not because people are moving to FW to work and live. They're moving to FW to live and commute to Dallas. That's why FW is never going to get out of the shadow of Dallas....

[mosteijn]

The problem is, when company comes to FW, they lower their pay scale to "adjust down" to compensate for the lower cost of living. IMO, FW's weak job market is one of the largest problems the city faces.

IMO, it sounds like things kind of break even. I mean, in Fort Worth you get payed less but you don't spend as much money on other things...whereas in Dallas, sure you might be making lots of money, but it's also more expensive to live there. Of course, if you just NEED a high paying job, because apparently FW wages can barely put food on your table, then sounds like you're FORCED to work in Dallas. How tragic.

[Perkins]

There are only a hand full of big employers (especially when compared to other large cities) and none of them really pay very well. I've been out of college for, well.... a while. And, I've never had a job in FW because I can't make nearly as much $ in FW as I have always made in Dallas. That's just a hard fact of life. Mayor Moncrief needs to work on attracting Fortune 500 companies to FW, along with their higher wages. The problem is, when company comes to FW, they lower their pay scale to "adjust down" to compensate for the lower cost of living. IMO, FW's weak job market is one of the largest problems the city faces.

Sure we're growing like gangbusters, but not because people are moving to FW to work and live. They're moving to FW to live and commute to Dallas. That's why FW is never going to get out of the shadow of Dallas....

I couldnt agree with you more "Willy1"

My wife noticed it when she graduated with her masters degree and moved to (FW) from Nebraska. I will say that the Health care jobs are pretty great in FW. FW has always had a great and competitive Healthcare market. If that is your area of concern, if not..... may have to drive a ways to work. The moral to my story, my wife drives to Dallas M-F (leaving at 4am) from Benbrook.

[vjackson]

Some have argued that Fort Worth lacks the allegedly "cool" night life Dallas supposedly offers. But I suspect that most people by the time they have advanced enough in a company to make decisions on matters such as relocations have outgrown the stage of life where going to nightclubs is a major concern. And for those who are into that sort of thing, most people do not go every night and when they do go it is after rush hour traffic has let up. One can be in Dallas in about 30 minutes during the evening. Does it make sense to spend an extra 30 minutes a day five days per week to commute to and from work just to save an occasional 30 minutes drive to a nightclub?

The same is true with regard to Fort Worth's lack of upscale shopping as compared with Dallas. Is it that much of a big deal to drive to Dallas to shop for the things that cannot be purchased in Fort Worth that one would be willing to swap it for a daily commute to and from the office in nasty traffic?

I'm 33 years old, and although I may be too old for nightly clubbing, I'm not dead yet either. I know many people in Dallas who are in thier early 40's who ocassionally go out to many clubs/bars/concerts catering to an older crowd. Many people like a city that gives them options. The last time I went out in FW was a few weeks ago. The whole group I was with was over 30, the oldest being around 38. We ended up in Dallas.
Nightlife is not a major concern for me (except for intimate live concert venues) anymore, but I like having the option to "get jiggy with it" (showing my age) if the urge moves me. And not have to drive 30 miles to do it. By stating that people in FW have to drive 30 miles to work, nightlclub, and shop, you legitimize the image that many people have of FW being a Dallas surburb.

[cberen1]

FW has always had a great and competitive Healthcare market.

To your point, from what I've seen it really depends a lot on what you do. My company regularly hires analysts, underwriters and statisticians away from Citifinancial, Countrywide, and other national lenders with a strong Dallas presence. We get them with better pay. But our attorneys make less than Dallas attorneys and our accountants probably also make less. Then again, our IT guys make very comparable wages, because they are easily lost for as little as $4 - $6K / year and apparently they don't mind commuting. It's a very competitive labor market for IT. We just paid a ton to get a QA guy with AS400 experience because he was they only good candidate we came across and he happened to be from Dallas.

Outside my industry, I know several geologists and petroleum engineers who say the pay is about the same in Tarrant and Dallas county. They are in such high demand that whoever wants them has to pay up.

It really all depends on what you do for a living. I imagine railroad engineers make more here than in Dallas.

[David Love]

Most (large) companies grant the option of a yearly unlimited TRE pass for about $90.00, 8 to 10 minute or less walk from most places downtown to the station.

In one of those articles about downtown office space being at 95%, quoted downtown jobs in the 50,000 range, but for sometime now I’ve been trying to understand how those numbers pan out. I suspect city and county positions are a good chunk of them and there are one or two good size companies that are close enough to downtown, 5 or 10 minute drive, to consider themselves downtown.

But for the most part I’m finding it hard to compile an accurate list.

[cberen1]

I'm 33 years old, and although I may be too old for nightly clubbing, I'm not dead yet either. I know many people in Dallas who are in thier early 40's who ocassionally go out to many clubs/bars/concerts catering to an older crowd. Many people like a city that gives them options. The last time I went out in FW was a few weeks ago. The whole group I was with was over 30, the oldest being around 38. We ended up in Dallas.
Nightlife is not a major concern for me (except for intimate live concert venues) anymore, but I like having the option to "get jiggy with it" (showing my age) if the urge moves me. And not have to drive 30 miles to do it. By stating that people in FW have to drive 30 miles to work, nightlclub, and shop, you legitimize the image that many people have of FW being a Dallas surburb.

You should check out some of the newer DTFW venues. Aqua Lounge and Bent Lounge are definitely a little more clubby without the suckfactor of "City Streets". In fact, Aqua Lounge is basically a refugee from the collapse of Deep Ellum (the owners words, not mine). It's water themed (huh?) with live DJ's spinning techno and funk Thurs - Sat. Plus they offer bottle service if you are so inclined. Bent Lounge is just full of beautiful people, loud music and strong drinks.

[gdvanc]

The wage differential between D and FW does depend on what you do (and probably on where you are in your career).

We can speculate on which careers have the largest disparities, or...

http://www.bls.gov/o...t/oes_23104.htm
http://www.bls.gov/o...t/oes_19124.htm


Maybe someday I'll download the spreadsheets and run the numbers. I'm so bummed that the median salary for what I'd like to be doing if I wasn't doing what I'm doing is only about 80% of what I'm paid for what I'm doing that I don't want to look at the data right now.

[one other thing I've wondered: sure, there are more jobs in Dallas, but there are presumably more applicants in many fields; for which careers is that added competition most pronounced?]

[oh, and on commuting: it bites. but average time with current employer isn't what it used to be, for a number of reasons. do you move every time you change jobs? or do you move to an area that offers the most opportunities to replace your job should the need arise? i've been with the same little family-owned New England-based financial company for 13 1/2 years and have worked in Las Colinas, CityPlace (the Dallas one), Las Colinas again, and now Westlake. should I have tried to minimize my commute each time my job moved? I'd eventually like to work with a particular organization in central Arlington or one of several in and around downtown Fort Worth; where I live now is relatively convenient for that and is one reason - along with our chosen parochial school - I've put up with the commute(s); we have seriously investigated moving closer to the northern burbs on a couple of occasions, though. one thing i found is that i have a feel for the parts of Arlington I can put up with; i'm more familiar with the school district; we have a fear of moving to a new town and hating the neighborhood or the schools; "the devil you know", as they say. anyway, there are a number of reasons - including future expectations - that people put up with a bad commute.]

[vjackson]

IMO, it sounds like things kind of break even. I mean, in Fort Worth you get payed less but you don't spend as much money on other things...whereas in Dallas, sure you might be making lots of money, but it's also more expensive to live there. Of course, if you just NEED a high paying job, because apparently FW wages can barely put food on your table, then sounds like you're FORCED to work in Dallas. How tragic.

Spoken like someone who is young and childless.
Do you have any idea of the pressure of a mortgage, car payments, college fund, retirement, etc.? Who really feels like they make enough money and just couldn't use a little more. The only thing I can really see saving a major amount of money on in FW is housing. But as unpredictable as the future is, most will tell you to sock away as much as possible on things like college funds and retirement. That's why making something like 30% or more in Dallas doing the same job in FW is so appealing. (Granted, I don't have children...thank god. But several of my friends do. With 3 kids, a mortgage, two cars, etc..I don't know how they do it. Money is always a concern..even in a relatively inexpensive city like FW)

Unless you want to commute from the lower priced surburbs, I wouldn't blame anyone from keeping thier FW home and commuting to Dallas. Are you aware of what the homes in decent neighborhoods near downtown Dallas are going for?? It's outrageous. I believe the Park Cities, Lakewood and East Dallas neighborhoods were some of the few that posted high appreciation rates last year, so they're only getting more expensive. You can get a much, much, better deal in FW.

My friends in Ryan Place are facing that problem now. He currently works in Los Colinas. The entire company is consilidating to DTD. His wife finishes paralegal school soon. Her former instructor in FW told the entire paralegal class that if they wanted to make decent money in the legal field, Dallas was the place to go. So she's planning on working in Dallas also. After surveying near DTD neighborhoods, they're considering attempting the commute before totally moving.

[Now in Denton]

When the TU project first came out. A Fort Worth offical said it will be a great saleing point to bring business downtown. The project is dead. So is the saleing point concept dead also?

It's not dead, though. In fact, it was the condo portion that was eliminated from the design, so I don't know why you're talking about the business aspect of the project being dead.

I know thier still talking about just building the office tower 20-30 story what ever it is. But I written off the office project also ever being done. My opinion.

Well Jonny it took six days to prove I was right. It will just be a parking lot now.That I believe will be built.

[Fort Worthology]

Well Jonny it took six days to prove I was right. It will just be a parking lot now.That I believe will be built.

It's going to remain a parking lot, so nothing gets built. However, it will be supporting the redevelopment of the Binyon O'Keefe warehouse, and I am always pleased when a vacant, run down, abandoned building gets reborn.

[Now in Denton]

Well Jonny it took six days to prove I was right. It will just be a parking lot now.That I believe will be built.

It's going to remain a parking lot, so nothing gets built. However, it will be supporting the redevelopment of the Binyon O'Keefe warehouse, and I am always pleased when a vacant, run down, abandoned building gets reborn.

Dallas has the AA center to kick start redevelopment. Fort Worth builds Parking lots for redevelopment? Wow Fort Worth has low standards. Ohhhh the joy.

[vjackson]

I hate that FW's job market sucks so bad. There are only a hand full of big employers (especially when compared to other large cities) and none of them really pay very well. I've been out of college for, well.... a while. And, I've never had a job in FW because I can't make nearly as much $ in FW as I have always made in Dallas. That's just a hard fact of life. Mayor Moncrief needs to work on attracting Fortune 500 companies to FW, along with their higher wages. The problem is, when company comes to FW, they lower their pay scale to "adjust down" to compensate for the lower cost of living. IMO, FW's weak job market is one of the largest problems the city faces.

I was in the same boat. After getting out of the military and moving to FW, I finished my degree at UTA. Once I started job searching, I couldn't believe how little the jobs in FW paid. Many of my fellow graduates worked on the Dallas side of the metroplex and were making much more money than me. I got a job in FW that I really like, but was living paycheck to paycheck. It wasn't until I moved to Dallas that I started making decent money.

And don't just think its just white-collar jobs that pay more. I have a friend who worked for a FW company that services banking equipment. He heard of similar company in Dallas that did the same thing that paid a "little" more. To his surprise a little more was 13k more a year. He packed up and moved to Dallas the day after he got the job. Also I was talking to a maintennace guy in the building one day while he was on our floor chaning light bulbs. He mentioned he takes the TRE from FW everyday because he makes a lot more here in Dallas than he ever did in FW.

All but three of my old coworkers from the closed FW office all work in the Dallas area now also. I know FW is less expensive than Dallas, but the metroplex economy can't change that much in a 30 mile radius that justifies companies dropping wages that much. The variations in pay between the two cities has always puzzled me.

[Fort Worthology]

Dallas has the AA center to kick start redevelopment. Fort Worth builds Parking lots for redevelopment? Wow Fort Worth has low standards. Ohhhh the joy.

That is not at all what I said. XTO's going to be using the parking lot that's already there, true - but it's to support the redevelopment and reuse of a building that is currently a run-down vacant eyesore. So, while we're not getting rid of a parking lot, we *are* getting a building back and in use.

[mosteijn]

Spoken like someone who is young and childless.
Do you have any idea of the pressure of a mortgage, car payments, college fund, retirement, etc.? Who really feels like they make enough money and just couldn't use a little more. The only thing I can really see saving a major amount of money on in FW is housing. But as unpredictable as the future is, most will tell you to sock away as much as possible on things like college funds and retirement. That's why making something like 30% or more in Dallas doing the same job in FW is so appealing. (Granted, I don't have children...thank god. But several of my friends do. With 3 kids, a mortgage, two cars, etc..I don't know how they do it. Money is always a concern..even in a relatively inexpensive city like FW)

Hm, being that I am one of 3 kids whose parents have two mortgages, 2 cars and are about to send their son to a $30,000+/year university, I have no idea how those pressures stack up! Of course money is always an issue when living comfortably is concerned. That, however, wasn't my point. It's not like people in Fort Worth are barely making ends meat here, which is honestly the impression all you "forced to work in Dallas" people are giving. I know TONS of people who live comfortably in Fort Worth who also work in Fort Worth, so my only explanation is that "comfortable" must mean different things to different people.

[David Love]

The wage differential between D and FW does depend on what you do (and probably on where you are in your career).

We can speculate on which careers have the largest disparities, or...

http://www.bls.gov/o...t/oes_23104.htm
http://www.bls.gov/o...t/oes_19124.htm


Maybe someday I'll download the spreadsheets and run the numbers. I'm so bummed that the median salary for what I'd like to be doing if I wasn't doing what I'm doing is only about 80% of what I'm paid for what I'm doing that I don't want to look at the data right now.

[one other thing I've wondered: sure, there are more jobs in Dallas, but there are presumably more applicants in many fields; for which careers is that added competition most pronounced?]

[oh, and on commuting: it bites. but average time with current employer isn't what it used to be, for a number of reasons. do you move every time you change jobs? or do you move to an area that offers the most opportunities to replace your job should the need arise? i've been with the same little family-owned New England-based financial company for 13 1/2 years and have worked in Las Colinas, CityPlace (the Dallas one), Las Colinas again, and now Westlake. should I have tried to minimize my commute each time my job moved? I'd eventually like to work with a particular organization in central Arlington or one of several in and around downtown Fort Worth; where I live now is relatively convenient for that and is one reason - along with our chosen parochial school - I've put up with the commute(s); we have seriously investigated moving closer to the northern burbs on a couple of occasions, though. one thing i found is that i have a feel for the parts of Arlington I can put up with; i'm more familiar with the school district; we have a fear of moving to a new town and hating the neighborhood or the schools; "the devil you know", as they say. anyway, there are a number of reasons - including future expectations - that people put up with a bad commute.]

The mean averages for my fields are not that much higher in Dallas County, you factor in higher insurance and everything else that runs higher and Fort Worth comes out ahead. Some of the numbers look right, some are a bit skewed, but I find it really interesting that Architecture fields in Fort Worth out perform Dallas.

[CurtisD]

The variations in pay between the two cities has always puzzled me.

FW companies pay less because they can. You live in Dallas don't you?? Look out of your office window, what do you see. Let me guess, more office towers, and beyond those, probably more office towers. (I'm going to assume your looking north). The Dallas area simply has the lion's share of office, white-collar corporate job...leaps and bounds over FW. The competition for quality workers is what drives the wages up.
And outside of Dallas you have mega office centers like the Telecom Corridor in Richardson, Los Colinas, Plano, and now Frisco is aiming to be a player in the office park game. FW and Tarrant County on the other hand, have little office space and few corporations when compared to Dallas. They don't have to pay workers as much when there's so little competition in town for those type of jobs. If you want the higher pay..go to Dallas. Someone mentioned the corporations in FW not known for paying well. My cousin who is losing her longtime job at Pier One just got a new position at a Plano company making considerable more money doing what would be a demotion from her previous position. Meaning she's getting paid more to do less. After college I turned down a job at Radioshack. Even at entry-level I couldn't believe how little they offered me.
And you're right about the blue-collar jobs too. My dad was a electrical supervisor at a FW factory. A coworker that had moved to Dallas dropped his name to his new employer. My Dad was called, interviewed, and offered a job over the phone. My father couldn't believe the money he was making for doing the very same thing. Needless to say, we were like the Jeffersons, moving on up. We left our little house near E. Lancaster Ave and moved to a beautiful new house in Meadowbrook. If it wasn't for my mom's teaching job we would have moved to Dallas, so my Dad commuted for almost 30 years. He still says he would have never made that kind of money in FW, so the commute was well worth it.

[CurtisD]

Hm, being that I am one of 3 kids whose parents have two mortgages, 2 cars and are about to send their son to a $30,000+/year university, I have no idea how those pressures stack up! Of course money is always an issue when living comfortably is concerned. That, however, wasn't my point. It's not like people in Fort Worth are barely making ends meat here, which is honestly the impression all you "forced to work in Dallas" people are giving. I know TONS of people who live comfortably in Fort Worth who also work in Fort Worth, so my only explanation is that "comfortable" must mean different things to different people.

I don't think anyone said people in FW were not living comfortably or could not make ends meet. Nor do I think anyone necessarily feels forced to work in Dallas. I think Vjack made the point that given a chance to make considerably more money is a huge incentive for some to make the commute. They may not necessarily need it to survive, but an extra 20 or 30k a year to do something similar or the same as what you're doing in FW can make plenty of comfortable people a little more comfortable. A high school friend of mine was doing just fine in FW, but a new IT job in Los Colinas that payed much more than the one in FW has allowed him and his wife to almost completely pay of their home in 5 years. He was living quite comfortably before, but I'm sure he sleeping better at night knowing he has no mortgage. He's now building a little house near some lake in Arkansas, something he hoped to do when he retired.

[mosteijn]

I don't think anyone said people in FW were not living comfortably or could not make ends meet. Nor do I think anyone necessarily feels forced to work in Dallas. I think Vjack made the point that given a chance to make considerably more money is a huge incentive for some to make the commute. They may not necessarily need it to survive, but an extra 20 or 30k a year to do something similar or the same as what you're doing in FW can make plenty of comfortable people a little more comfortable.

Neither did I say that anybody said that. To simplify myself even more, my point was that the people (like you) deriding Fort Worth's low paying job market are talking as if the wages in Fort Worth can barely sustain a person. Basically, I think you all are making it sound worse than it actually is. Just my opinion really, because I'm one of those typically insecure Fort Worth residents with a vendetta against Dallas due to my obsessive jealousy of the place!!!

And like I said, it depends on how you define comfort. Sure some families may use the extra dollars to better their situation for their kids and future and such, but I'm sure some (if not most) people use it for purely superficial, material gain.

[Willy1]

I don't think anyone said people in FW were not living comfortably or could not make ends meet. Nor do I think anyone necessarily feels forced to work in Dallas. I think Vjack made the point that given a chance to make considerably more money is a huge incentive for some to make the commute. They may not necessarily need it to survive, but an extra 20 or 30k a year to do something similar or the same as what you're doing in FW can make plenty of comfortable people a little more comfortable.

Neither did I say that anybody said that. To simplify myself even more, my point was that the people (like you) deriding Fort Worth's low paying job market are talking as if the wages in Fort Worth can barely sustain a person. Basically, I think you all are making it sound worse than it actually is. Just my opinion really, because I'm one of those typically insecure Fort Worth residents with a vendetta against Dallas due to my obsessive jealousy of the place!!!

And like I said, it depends on how you define comfort. Sure some families may use the extra dollars to better their situation for their kids and future and such, but I'm sure some (if not most) people use it for purely superficial, material gain.

Well, as a life-long "West Sider" who grew up in FW living what most would consider an extremely comfortable lifestyle, I have to say that there are lot of people living in FW, especially on the West Side, who live extremely well. This city does have a lot of money. However, many of those folks made their own money because they own companies, or are living off old family money. Now, I think there is also a generation gap and a shift going on.... There are still plenty of old FW west siders who have money, but as they retire or pass away, you're going to see their children (like myself) working in Dallas because those opportunities are no longer available to them. And, when someone grows up with a certain level of income and comfort, standard FW pay scales simply don't cut it.

Someone else in here mentioned Pier 1. A couple years ago I applied for a job at P1. I was shocked at the salary they offered me. And, in the end, they didn't extend the offer because they saw my salary history and said that they knew I wouldn't stay at P1 longterm because I was used to making double what they were offering... Bottom line is FW companies are opperating in a vortex... much like the city leaders/developers who seem oblivious to the skyscraper boom happening in almost every other city of similar size to FW... and even larger cities that are not growing or even shrinking in population. There is a certain culture in FW that just doesn't welcome risks or change. That's why FW may someday be larger than Dallas, but like San Jose, will never be the driving force behind anything in the Metroplex. FW may not technically be a suburb of Dallas, but it sure acts like one. Although, many of Dallas' suburbs are now out-shining FW in terms of development. Sad but true, and I hate that fact!

[SLO]

My Dad was called, interviewed, and offered a job over the phone. My father couldn't believe the money he was making for doing the very same thing. Needless to say, we were like the Jeffersons, moving on up. We left our little house near E. Lancaster Ave and moved to a beautiful new house in Meadowbrook. If it wasn't for my mom's teaching job we would have moved to Dallas, so my Dad commuted for almost 30 years. He still says he would have never made that kind of money in FW, so the commute was well worth it.

ahhh so your disdain for FW goes back to your childhood..... (jk, jk)


I'm sure the variance in salary is very real. I did work at a firm in Addison for..........about a week. That commute was a complete beat down. Its probably more sane to choose your side. Youve got to be a little entreprenuerial to live on this side of the line.