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Where is this house really?


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#1 1963Parade_of_Homes

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 08:12 PM

In the scan accompanying this you will see an Acme Brick ad from the March, 1927 issue of Architectural Forum, a national magazine. The house featured in the ad belonged to Lloyd H. McKee, one of the developers of Westover Hills. It is listed as being at 4450 Crestline.

I went by what would be that address. It is in fact a fairway on Rivercrest C.C., along the north side of Crestline, just east of the clubhouse. Clearly, the address given in the photo is incorrect.

So just where was or is this house? I believe I have heard there were 3 houses on what is now the Bass estate when they bought it. Was it one of those, and if so, is it still there?

-Jim

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#2 ghughes

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 09:10 PM

My bet is that it fell victim to a country club expansion, but I am quite willing to be proven wrong.

Per the Fort Worth Historical Society, "Platted in 1928, the Westover Hills residential development was the vision of developers Lloyd H. McKee, Wyatt C. Hedrick and T.O. Baker." So it appears Mr. McKee wanted to move farther out?

Still not knowing where the house is/was, I found an interesting post associated with geneology that provides some interesting connections with Mr. McKee and other Fort Worth institutions: http://www.jenforum....ssages/115.html

#3 WTx

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Posted 24 July 2006 - 10:47 PM

I bet it was a typo. I checked the 1927 Sanborn Maps page 442 and there is no house on the RCC grounds other than the RCC itself. Does anybody have an old city directory showing where Mr. McKee lived?

#4 Yossarian

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 05:06 AM

It is NOT one of the homes removed to make way for the large estate on Crestline.

The house in question is in Old Westover Hills, but not really visible from the street.

Edited by John T Roberts, 26 July 2006 - 08:24 PM.


#5 hannerhan

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 05:14 AM

Interesting old photo...I didn't think the house was that old. I guess they added the garage at some later point.

#6 1963Parade_of_Homes

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 09:22 PM

I drove through Westover Hills today and researched an address in the Historic Resources Survey book. Indeed, the house pictured in the ad is there.

The HRS says it was built from 1924-27 for Lloyd McKee. He had it for about 10 years. The second owner kept it until 1950 when he sold it to Kay Kimbell of our art museum fame. Kimbell had it until 1984. .

Hope everyone has enjoyed this.

-Jim

Edited by John T Roberts, 26 July 2006 - 08:26 PM.


#7 bburton

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 10:34 PM

QUOTE(1963Parade_of_Homes @ Jul 25 2006, 10:22 PM) View Post

Hope everyone has enjoyed this.

-Jim


I love sleuthing like this. Thanks for the entertainment and the education. biggrin.gif


#8 Yossarian

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 08:48 AM

The actual physical address should be edited out of your post, 1963. We have discussed this issue on these boards before, but you may not have been around or bothereed to read all the old posts.

Edited by John T Roberts, 26 July 2006 - 08:28 PM.


#9 hooked

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 12:40 PM

FYI - #10 from the Forum Guidelines and Rules:

"Please do not post threads that tie individuals to specific residential addresses. Please respect other citizen's privacy. They may not want their residence location posted for everyone to see. Even if the name and address have been published in a recent news story, this news story will not be discussed in the forum if there is a direct reference to the residential location to the owner. Posting of links to satellite images or the images itself on the forum that tie and (sic) individual to their home addresses will be prohibited. Immediate deletion of the image, link, or thread will result."

Edited by John T Roberts, 26 July 2006 - 08:29 PM.


#10 Yossarian

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 04:04 PM

QUOTE
although Yossarian's reference certainly narrowed the field.


ergo my choice of those words specifically.

Edited by John T Roberts, 26 July 2006 - 08:29 PM.


#11 John T Roberts

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 08:22 PM

I have taken out all references to specific residences and people out of this thread.

Yossarian, you have also violated forum rules in referring to a specific house. I promised the owners there would be no future references on the entire forum to this property.

I am sorry to have edited most of these posts, but we must follow the forum rules and guidelines.

Edited by John T Roberts, 26 July 2006 - 08:31 PM.


#12 Yossarian

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 12:52 AM

QUOTE
Yossarian, you have also violated forum rules in referring to a specific house.


I beg to differ John. The rules do not prohibit references to specific houses except as to the identification of its owner/resident and actual physical address. I did neither. In fact, I specifically edited to "X's" and "?'s" the physical address in my direct reply. Although edited out by you in your right as owner and moderator, I used a specific word so as not to come too close to actually identifying who the owner/resident currently may be. That word, apparently redacted from use in this thread, was chosen because it covers a number of individuals in FW for any host of reasons. I also never provided the physical address. As per your forum rule quoted below:

"do not post threads that tie individuals to specific residential addresses."

To which I did NOT violate.

Further:

"Posting of links to satellite images or the images itself on the forum that tie and (sic) individual to their home addresses will be prohibited."

1963 PoH posted the image, the actual address and the very close reference as to who the owner might be. Nowhere in that rule does it prohibit stating the last name of the individual who owned/resided in a specific property in the past; especially one who resided/owned a specific property 20 years ago (although I will submit that identifying said person's occupation certainly identified him/her much more specifically to anyone in the know/trade that would have dealings with such, like you as an architect; still, such a qualification does not violate the letter nor the spirit of the forum rule in question as drafted today).

I recognize that it is a public forum owned by you John; and it is your right to host however you may choose, but I would expect a closer reading of the rules you have established before making an acusation. Under the rules as they stand today, your assertion is groundless.

#13 John T Roberts

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 08:05 AM

Yossarian, you did not violate any of the rules in reference to the home in Westover Hills. I'm sorry that you thought I was talking about that one.

I know that I'm going to have a forum uprising here, but the home that I was referring to in breaking the rules is actually an unwritten rule, due an informal agreement that I made with the owner. I changed your reference to that property to say "large estate on Crestline". After posting images of the property and removing them, I agreed that this forum would no longer make specific references to that property. It is tough to write a rule about something that you have agreed to not mention. I thought that changing your reference to "large estate on Crestline" was generic, yet specific enough, that there wouldn't be any complaints. I apologize for appearing that I haven't read my own rules very well. I'm just trying to keep various individuals outside this forum happy. I also realize that is not my target audience, but we do have to respect an individual's right to privacy at his home. I really don't like having to edit these posts, but most of you don't realize the amount of negative feedback I have personally received when a house has been put on this forum.

Finally, please remember that a very limited amount of editing is done to these posts. I generally don't try to regulate anything said on this forum, and unless there are personal attacks, extreme foul language, or tying a resident to his home, I let the threads stand. From what I have seen in other city, architecture, and skyscraper forums, the Administrators and Moderators really don't display a great deal of heavy handedness on the threads.

I am going to be out "in the field" most of the day, so if anyone has any issues or concerns on this topic, they can PM me. I will not be able to get back with you until late this evening.

#14 Yossarian

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 08:36 AM

QUOTE
I know that I'm going to have a forum uprising here, but the home that I was referring to in breaking the rules is actually an unwritten rule, due an informal agreement that I made with the owner. I changed your reference to that property to say "large estate on Crestline". After posting images of the property and removing them, I agreed that this forum would no longer make specific references to that property. It is tough to write a rule about something that you have agreed to not mention. I thought that changing your reference to "large estate on Crestline" was generic, yet specific enough, that there wouldn't be any complaints. I apologize for appearing that I haven't read my own rules very well. I'm just trying to keep various individuals outside this forum happy. I also realize that is not my target audience, but we do have to respect an individual's right to privacy at his home. I really don't like having to edit these posts, but most of you don't realize the amount of negative feedback I have personally received when a house has been put on this forum.


Understood. I know the owner in question (he is a neighbor) and equally share his concerns for privacy. I did not think that referring to his estate by name and referrence only to a street that runs more than a mile in length in that area would necessarily identify the actual specifics, but remember that a while back a google sat image and map of the grounds was posted that certainly let the cat out of the proverbial bag.

#15 hooked

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 08:51 AM

I think John's trying to herd the cat back into the bag, without mentioning the cat, or the location of the bag, or acknowledging that either one exists. tongue.gif

#16 Yossarian

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 09:35 AM

QUOTE(hooked @ Jul 27 2006, 09:51 AM) View Post

I think John's trying to herd the cat back into the bag, without mentioning the cat, or the location of the bag, or acknowledging that either one exists. tongue.gif


rotflmao.gif Somewhat Adamsesque isn't it?


#17 mmiller2002

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 06:37 PM

Man. I still can't figure out what property you guys were discussing. There are lots of large estates on Crestline.

A look at TAD may help clarify it for me. Maybe a name will jump out at me.

#18 1963Parade_of_Homes

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 12:31 PM

QUOTE(mmiller2002 @ Jul 27 2006, 07:37 PM) View Post

Man. I still can't figure out what property you guys were discussing. There are lots of large estates on Crestline.

A look at TAD may help clarify it for me. Maybe a name will jump out at me.



The house isn't on Crestline as the Acme Brick ad states. In fact, it is in Westover Hills. If you have the Historic Resources Survey, read the various entries for the old part of Westover Hills. One of them describes a house built by (or for) Lloyd McKee, the man named as the owner of the house in the Acme Brick ad.

If you don't have the Historic Resources Survey books, send a message directly to me here through the website (click on my id "1963Parade of Homes") and I'll tell you the exact address in Westover Hills of the house pictured in the ad.

-Jim

#19 mmiller2002

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 07:51 PM

QUOTE(mmiller2002 @ Jul 27 2006, 07:37 PM) View Post

Man. I still can't figure out what property you guys were discussing. There are lots of large estates on Crestline.

A look at TAD may help clarify it for me. Maybe a name will jump out at me.



Got it.

#20 hooked

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Posted 29 July 2006 - 11:55 AM

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jul 27 2006, 10:35 AM) View Post

QUOTE(hooked @ Jul 27 2006, 09:51 AM) View Post

I think John's trying to herd the cat back into the bag, without mentioning the cat, or the location of the bag, or acknowledging that either one exists. tongue.gif


rotflmao.gif Somewhat Adamsesque isn't it?


Douglas Adamsesque: perhaps. Ansel Adamsesque: I don't think so.

Do you guys know where your towels are? shakehead.gif

#21 austlar

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 04:04 AM

QUOTE(hooked @ Jul 29 2006, 12:55 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jul 27 2006, 10:35 AM) View Post

QUOTE(hooked @ Jul 27 2006, 09:51 AM) View Post

I think John's trying to herd the cat back into the bag, without mentioning the cat, or the location of the bag, or acknowledging that either one exists. tongue.gif


rotflmao.gif Somewhat Adamsesque isn't it?


Douglas Adamsesque: perhaps. Ansel Adamsesque: I don't think so.

Do you guys know where your towels are? shakehead.gif


Maybe John Adamsesque?

#22 Yossarian

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 09:29 AM

QUOTE(austlar @ Jul 30 2006, 05:04 AM) View Post

QUOTE(hooked @ Jul 29 2006, 12:55 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jul 27 2006, 10:35 AM) View Post

QUOTE(hooked @ Jul 27 2006, 09:51 AM) View Post

I think John's trying to herd the cat back into the bag, without mentioning the cat, or the location of the bag, or acknowledging that either one exists. tongue.gif


rotflmao.gif Somewhat Adamsesque isn't it?


Douglas Adamsesque: perhaps. Ansel Adamsesque: I don't think so.

Do you guys know where your towels are? shakehead.gif


Maybe John Adamsesque?


Although the house in question could qualify as Charles Addamsesque.

#23 safly

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Posted 30 July 2006 - 10:41 AM

Would someone explain to me how DARK BRICK became so popular in a time where A/C homes WERE NOT the norm. I'm sure that thing cooked up like an oven upstairs for 2 months out of the year.

And have FIREPLACES always been the popular addition to any old classic home here in FW. WHY?

BTW, it looks like the Country Clubhouse off of 7th.
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#24 hannerhan

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 07:56 AM

QUOTE(safly @ Jul 30 2006, 11:41 AM) View Post

And have FIREPLACES always been the popular addition to any old classic home here in FW. WHY?



Just taking a wild guess here, but I think people used them to heat their homes in the winter. tongue.gif

#25 safly

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 10:45 PM

You mean that 3 DAY WINTER. tongue.gif

And why did this house have like 8 of em?
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#26 Yossarian

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 04:45 AM

QUOTE(safly @ Jul 31 2006, 11:45 PM) View Post

You mean that 3 DAY WINTER. tongue.gif

And why did this house have like 8 of em?


That does vex. Then again, my parents property has a secondary structure that at one time housed a hay loft. I suppose that some of these older structures (homes) incorporated design features that were really only necessary to their day and are hard to justify/find reason today.

#27 hannerhan

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 06:54 AM

QUOTE(safly @ Jul 31 2006, 11:45 PM) View Post

You mean that 3 DAY WINTER. tongue.gif

And why did this house have like 8 of em?


We don't notice it these days, since we can turn the heat on in our cars and houses quite easily, and we only need heat 3 months out of the year anyway. But if you live in 1927 and have no central heating, then a 1 week cold snap in January could be deadly, especially for kids or elderly.

Remember we're not exactly in San Antonio here...we had some cold weather in the mid 1980's for a few weeks straight, where I can remember people being able to ice skate on area lakes for a week or so.

As to the number of fireplaces, it's a big house.

#28 Yossarian

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 08:18 AM

QUOTE(hannerhan @ Aug 1 2006, 07:54 AM) View Post

QUOTE(safly @ Jul 31 2006, 11:45 PM) View Post

You mean that 3 DAY WINTER. tongue.gif

And why did this house have like 8 of em?


We don't notice it these days, since we can turn the heat on in our cars and houses quite easily, and we only need heat 3 months out of the year anyway. But if you live in 1927 and have no central heating, then a 1 week cold snap in January could be deadly, especially for kids or elderly.

Remember we're not exactly in San Antonio here...we had some cold weather in the mid 1980's for a few weeks straight, where I can remember people being able to ice skate on area lakes for a week or so.

As to the number of fireplaces, it's a big house.


December 1983. On Christmas day, we were able to sit on sun loungers ON my godparent's pool because the ice had sufficiently thickened to accomodate the weight. San Antonio got it bad then as well. I remember reading somewhere about Corpus once having 75'+ palms along the bayfront boardwalk that were all killed off by that cold snap. The other significant cold occured in December 1989. It was a shorter "snap" in duration, but the absolute overnight lows got colder. In 1989, even San Antonio saw overnight temperatures below 10*F.


#29 JulieM

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 08:54 AM

My parents house in Arlington was by a pond. We all went ice skating on it that Christmas day.

Oh that cold snap in 89. Got stranded in Dallas after company Christmas party because my date's diesel Mercedes wouldn't start in the cold and it killed the battery in my new Acura! What's even more embarrassing is that his mom had to come give my car a jump! That was cold!

#30 JBB

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 09:08 AM

My family came home from a Colorado ski trip the day after the Dec. '89 cold snap started and it was colder here than it was in CO.

I seem to remember a pretty nasty cold streak in January or February of '87 (maybe?) where Lone Star Gas requested that schools close to curtail gas usage. I think we had a thick blanket of snow during that stretch rather than the ice that we usually get.

#31 Yossarian

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 09:40 AM

QUOTE(JBB @ Aug 1 2006, 10:08 AM) View Post

My family came home from a Colorado ski trip the day after the Dec. '89 cold snap started and it was colder here than it was in CO.

I seem to remember a pretty nasty cold streak in January or February of '87 (maybe?) where Lone Star Gas requested that schools close to curtail gas usage. I think we had a thick blanket of snow during that stretch rather than the ice that we usually get.


I think you may be remembering 1988. January and February of '87 were pretty warm, although we did get a dusting of snow as late as early April that year.




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