386 replies to this topic

[Thurman52]

I wonder if the contractor working at university has left the job. No progress in weeks maybe since late May. Decent progress in many other sections.

[SurplusPopulation]

I saw a sign on 30 eastbound this morning that said 'Traffic Switch 9/29 8PM'. Anybody know what this means? I have to use that to and from work everyday and wondering what I'm in for.

[John T Roberts]

I don't know specifically what will be switched, but those signs mean that lanes will change their position or will be moved to the other side of the road.  I would expect delays because everyone is confused.  On my way to and from work, I actually take a loop.  In the mornings, I take westbound I-20/TX 183 to the office and I return home eastbound on I-30 and I get off in the construction zone at Rosedale Street.

 

On previous lane switches at I-20 and TX 183, traffic has backed up for a mile or so for the first two days after the change.  On those days, the far left lane was moving the best and I got into that lane and continued westbound on I-20, and I then went north on US 377 back to the Traffic Circle.

[elpingüino]

The NTTA is good about explaining construction/traffic issues in its weekly updates. You can read them here or get them emailed to you.

 

For this particular situation:

 

I-30 traffic switch begins Sept. 29

A traffic switch and other changes along eastbound I-30 are scheduled to begin Sept. 29 and last through spring of 2014. These changes include closing the University Drive entrance ramp to eastbound I-30. Detour signs will direct motorists to the Summit Avenue entrance to eastbound I-30.

 

Also beginning Sept. 29, the eastbound I-30 exit ramp to Summit Avenue will be temporarily relocated about a quarter of a mile west of the current location, directing motorists to exit earlier.   

 

[SurplusPopulation]

Thanks!

[cberen1]

Drove on it this morning (getting from University to I-30 East).  It takes you up to summit along a new stretch of the freeway.  It's going to slow me down in the mornings, but it's progress.

[John T Roberts]

The Fort Worth Star-Telegram has a story about the ramp and frontage road changes at I-30 that will take place this weekend.

 

http://www.star-tele...e-chisholm.html

[JBB]

I've heard some through the grapevine discussion about the smoke and mirrors act that the NTTA has going concerning the "opening" of the road this weekend. An article in the S-T earlier this week was very bubble gum and cotton candy about this being a huge milestone while making very subtle mention about the fact that the road really isn't ready. I've heard that, at best, they'll have one lane in each direction between University/Montgomery and I-20 with some sections possibly not opening until late summer. It also sounds like they'll be doing good to get everything east of University open by the end of the year.

[Doohickie]

You can look at what they're doing and see they're nowhere near done.

[mmiller2002]

They probably get some sort of progress payment or incentive bonus by saying it's open.

[dangr.dave]

The part over I-30 has no concrete.  Seems like, yes, if they call it 'substantially complete' and open a part of it, they either get a bonus or avoid paying liquidated damages.  Actually completing the road is mere punchlist work.  They had a similar definition of 'complete' with the 7th Street Bridge, if I remember correctly...they called it 'open' but didn't actually have the pedestrian walkways done for some time after that.

[JBB]

I've heard that the contractor is missing out on completion bonuses and is likely going to have to pay fines back to NTTA.  

[youngalum]

Okay my driving report of the new toll road

 

Started at Montgomery and headed south.  First of all, going 50 is never going to happen. Most cars were doing 65-70.  Second, it is beautiful designed roadway and I like the nod to the Will Rogers tower at every bridge/overpass.  The road reminds me of the North Dallas Tollway north of 635.  It just feels awesome.  It is amazing how quickly one goes from my start to the SW FW area as it will improve folks commute.

 

The tollway needs signage on the next exits and destinations--which is coming.  There is just a ton of open land and it will get developed quickly.  Once in Cleburne, the tollway needs signage there for locations at the end point.  I saw no evidence that it was being planned as in other areas along the route.

 

Headed on down to Stephenville for Hard 8 BBQ and then back up 377 to Bluff Dale.  Bluff Dale has the saloon and a little restaurant (crawfish is great) but accepts cash only.  Went on to Bluff Dale Winery and had a great view and good Texas wine.  Headed on back to Fort Worth for a much needed rest and nap!!

[JBB]

What was the drive time like? We went to San Antonio a few weeks ago via 174 and 67 to 281 and the drive through Burleson was brutal. I would be more than curious if this would be a better option since we're going again in a few months.

[John T Roberts]

First of all, before the Chisholm Trail Parkway opened, I didn't even take 174 into Cleburne for any reason.  Lately, I have been taking I-35W to 67, then into Cleburne.  These trips have been on the weekends.  I probably won't take the parkway now, either because I have more time than money. 

 

My route to San Antonio and to the Hill Country to save time is west on I-20, and then south on US 281.

[mmiller2002]

Okay my driving report of the new toll road

 

Started at Montgomery and headed south.  First of all, going 50 is never going to happen. Most cars were doing 65-70.  Second, it is beautiful designed roadway and I like the nod to the Will Rogers tower at every bridge/overpass.  The road reminds me of the North Dallas Tollway north of 635.  It just feels awesome.  It is amazing how quickly one goes from my start to the SW FW area as it will improve folks commute.

 

The tollway needs signage on the next exits and destinations--which is coming.  There is just a ton of open land and it will get developed quickly.  Once in Cleburne, the tollway needs signage there for locations at the end point.  I saw no evidence that it was being planned as in other areas along the route.

 

Headed on down to Stephenville for Hard 8 BBQ and then back up 377 to Bluff Dale.  Bluff Dale has the saloon and a little restaurant (crawfish is great) but accepts cash only.  Went on to Bluff Dale Winery and had a great view and good Texas wine.  Headed on back to Fort Worth for a much needed rest and nap!!

 

How much did that jaunt cost?

[youngalum]

$4.91 one way south

[Dylan]

The tollway is now showing up on Google Maps. Only the southbound lanes are showing past Sycamore School Rd, though.

[mmiller2002]

$4.91 one way south

 

Tolltag pricing?

[youngalum]

Yes, I have a tolltag

[urbancowboy]

It's a well designed road. I have a feeling it could be our version of the DNT one day as far as employment and residential. That's not a good thing per say.

[Volare]

It's 3 lanes wide as it leaves downtown and heads south. Shortly after crossing south of 820, it drops to two lanes. Another 10 miles or so down the road and it's down to one lane. I'll leave it up to you to decide if this is a good design. IMHO it's planned for obsolesence once all the McMansions get built in the gated/guarded communities of Sprawlville.

[johnfwd]

It's 3 lanes wide as it leaves downtown and heads south. Shortly after crossing south of 820, it drops to two lanes. Another 10 miles or so down the road and it's down to one lane. I'll leave it up to you to decide if this is a good design. IMHO it's planned for obsolesence once all the McMansions get built in the gated/guarded communities of Sprawlville.

You may be right about future traffic gridlock south of the city.  All you need do is look at I35 between Fort Worth and Burleson during rush hours.

[John T Roberts]

I think the right-of-way is there for three lanes each way for the entire length of the roadway.  I do know that they only constructed the northbound lanes within Johnson County, and when the time comes, they can build the southbound side without disrupting traffic.  That would double the size in Johnson County.  I'm sure the reason that it wasn't built out was to keep the toll rates relatively low.  If the parkway had twice the pavement, I'm sure the tolls would be double and there still wouldn't be enough traffic to support it for a while.  The NTTA would probably have lost money at first.

[hannerhan]

Let's assume that the Chisolm Trail, in a couple of years, is taking some traffic off I-35 and creating its own traffic as well.  That's a lot of cars being dumped on to I-30 eastbound during the morning rush hour.  As I see it now, eastbound I-30 is only striped to handle 3 lanes of traffic between Summit and Henderson, which is the point immediately after the Chisolm Trail will dump in.  

 

If they don't re-stripe that elevated portion of I-30 to include 4+ lanes to I-35, that point is going to get backed up every morning.  You can't take a 3 lane I-30, and merge a new 3 lane road into it, and leave it 3 lanes, and not expect congestion.  I know that a lot of cars are going into downtown and will already be off the road at that point (it's good that the Cherry/Henderson/Lancaster exits will occur before the merger), but I still think this is going to create issues once the toll road starts getting more crowded...unless they lose the shoulders and widen I-30 to 4 lanes in there.

[Fort Worthology]

And so continues the endless cycle of road construction/widenings that only ever lead to more congestion and more unsustainable development, self-perpetuating and unending until ruin.

[JBB]

Let's assume that the Chisolm Trail, in a couple of years, is taking some traffic off I-35 and creating its own traffic as well.

 
Everybody that thinks that CTP is going to do a thing to relieve rush hour traffic on I-35 should stand on their head until that happens.

[John T Roberts]

I was never in favor of this toll road being built.  I agree with Kevin, it will just perpetuate sprawl and limit the area where I can safely bicycle on country roads without traffic. 

[RenaissanceMan]

I was never in favor of this toll road being built.  I agree with Kevin, it will just perpetuate sprawl and limit the area where I can safely bicycle on country roads without traffic. 

 

 

And so continues the endless cycle of road construction/widenings that only ever lead to more congestion and more unsustainable development, self-perpetuating and unending until ruin.

 

For the record and for those keeping score, I am not aware of any freeway built in Fort Worth (or the entire North Texas region for that matter) that, upon the day it was initially built, didn't require an immediate return to the drawing board in order to figure out how to widen it due to higher than anticipated traffic. That was the case with I-35 and with I-30.

 

The only (minor) relief that I take in all of this is that I cannot see any other realistic new freeway that is or has been planned for the future (except for the widening of I-35 north which will happen and the super-loop that NCTCOG has had penciled in at the conceptual level that reaches practically out to Abilene that will never happen). So if this is the last time that we have to go through all of this and if this is that "last one" that we've all been waiting for for so long and we just had to do it because it had been at the top of our transportation wish list for decades, fine. Let's just get it over with, it is what it is, but maybe now we can really begin to focus on rail without the distraction or diversion of resources prompted by that one last freeway that we've wanted oh so badly for so long. I'm not thrilled about it. I don't think it was necessary in the first place. I do think that it is going to induce a heck of a lot of sprawl, but whatever... I'm just ready to move on and have everybody put the focus on rail where it needs to be.

[johnfwd]

I would agree with you, RenaissanceMan. except that I'm afraid it's not as simple as abandoning the freeway system and going to rail (I wish it were so!).  It goes like this:  A freeway is built, it eventually becomes traffic congested, and then it's widened or another is built to relieve it of some of the congestion.  There is no such thing as a "last one" freeway, then it's all rail construction from here on out. The only way that would work would be if society decided to tear up all freeways and start over with rail. 

[JBB]

Prior to the start of CTP construction, what was the last major freeway expansion inside the loop? 35/30 interchange, if I'm not mistaken was complete more than 10 years prior. Assuming everything is status quo for 10 years after I-35 is complete, that seems like a good time to change the cycle and start working on transit projects beyond freeway expansion. You have to start somewhere. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

[renamerusk]

 
The only (minor) relief that I take in all of this is that I cannot see any other realistic new freeway that is or has been planned for the future (except for the widening of I-35 north which will happen and the super-loop that NCTCOG has had penciled in at the conceptual level that reaches practically out to Abilene that will never happen). So if this is the last time that we have to go through all of this.....

 
 There is likely preliminary plans for a Northwest/Hwy199 toll road (downtown to Azle/Boyd) already on NTTA's next agenda.

[Dylan]

Y'all act like this tollway and the development that will come with it is a bad thing. The only bad thing is the high prices.

[Dylan]

As far as Jacksboro highway, I could see that becoming a freeway/tollway from Azle to 820. Looking at Google satellite images, looks like it's already a freeway in a few segments.

[JBB]

Every development along this tollway puts more cheap land on the market and pulls more money for development out of the urban core.  Edwards Ranch, Clear Fork, and the old Lockheed property are probably going to be nice developments.  But I would have much rather seen the billion dollars spent on this tollway go toward strengthening downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods and making the urban core more desirable to corporations and office and residential developers.  But I guess that's a hard sell for someone who wants to cut their drive time from Crowley or Joshua by 5 minutes.

[Volare]

I was in Houston yesterday at a friend's place and saw the newest thing- toll ramps. Don't like that wait to go from I-30 to I-35w? Coming soon, a toll ramp so you won't have to wait in that line. It connects two existing freeways with a ramp for those to impatient to wait in the backup created by poorly engineered flyover ramps. (Seriously, who is the genius who thought it would be smart to put two lanes on the northbound ramp to merge into one lane at the end of the ramp, and then merge onto I-35w?)

[hannerhan]

I was in Houston yesterday at a friend's place and saw the newest thing- toll ramps. Don't like that wait to go from I-30 to I-35w? Coming soon, a toll ramp so you won't have to wait in that line. It connects two existing freeways with a ramp for those to impatient to wait in the backup created by poorly engineered flyover ramps. (Seriously, who is the genius who thought it would be smart to put two lanes on the northbound ramp to merge into one lane at the end of the ramp, and then merge onto I-35w?)

 

The problem isn't so much on that ramp as it is on I-35 itself, where 1/4 mile later you have 287 coming in and traffic having to "cross over" each other as some people move right to hit 121 and others move left to take I-35.  This should be alleviated when the I-35 expansion occurs, based on the video I've seen of the proposed interchange where there are more direct ramps (ie, there will be a direct ramp from eastbound I-30 to northbound 121, bypassing I-35 altogether).

[Volare]

The problem isn't so much on that ramp as it is on I-35 itself, where 1/4 mile later you have 287 coming in and traffic having to "cross over" each other as some people move right to hit 121 and others move left to take I-35.  This should be alleviated when the I-35 expansion occurs, based on the video I've seen of the proposed interchange where there are more direct ramps (ie, there will be a direct ramp from eastbound I-30 to northbound 121, bypassing I-35 altogether).

 

 

Yes, the problem is no doubt compounded by the 287 merge- as well as incorrect signage there indicating that you must get to the left two lanes in order to continue to I-35w (that's old signage from when there were only two lanes that continued north). But even before the 287 merge, the right lane becomes exit only, forcing everyone who has just merged from two ramp lanes to one to now make a futher move left. It's truly baffling. Eliminating one of the ramp lanes would immediately improve flow onto I-35w. And whoever engineered that mess should never work again in Fort Worth.

[Fort Worthology]

Y'all act like this tollway and the development that will come with it is a bad thing. The only bad thing is the high prices.

 

Yes, I do consider this tollway and the development that will come with it to be bad things.

 

Every new or widened highway just results in siphoning energy out of the central city to development in the far fringe, which is unsustainable from an economic, environmental, and transportation perspective.  More developments that will exist in their own vacuums, disconnected from anything else.  More developments that will REQUIRE the use of a car to get to and from and between them, further increasing this city's over-dependence on one mode of transportation and further degrading the human environment, our health, and the city's budget.  More cars thrown onto streets.  More traffic.  More pollution.  The city shoving its head further into the sand and pretending it's still 1960 and gas is cheap and plentiful and we are ignorant of the massive negative effects of the planning and development that's happened since World War II.  More roads that further delay any hope of this city getting serious about other forms of planning and transportation and getting further left behind by other cities that are embracing the 21st century while we delude ourselves into thinking we can build a couple of urban entertainment/parking garage districts while still pretending the other 99% of the city can keep on doing things unchanged with no ill effects.

[hannerhan]

 

Y'all act like this tollway and the development that will come with it is a bad thing. The only bad thing is the high prices.

 

Yes, I do consider this tollway and the development that will come with it to be bad things.

 

Every new or widened highway just results in siphoning energy out of the central city to development in the far fringe, which is unsustainable from an economic, environmental, and transportation perspective.  More developments that will exist in their own vacuums, disconnected from anything else.  More developments that will REQUIRE the use of a car to get to and from and between them, further increasing this city's over-dependence on one mode of transportation and further degrading the human environment, our health, and the city's budget.  More cars thrown onto streets.  More traffic.  More pollution.  The city shoving its head further into the sand and pretending it's still 1960 and gas is cheap and plentiful and we are ignorant of the massive negative effects of the planning and development that's happened since World War II.  More roads that further delay any hope of this city getting serious about other forms of planning and transportation and getting further left behind by other cities that are embracing the 21st century while we delude ourselves into thinking we can build a couple of urban entertainment/parking garage districts while still pretending the other 99% of the city can keep on doing things unchanged with no ill effects.

 

 

 

I'm not really disagreeing with anything you're saying, but I do think it's going a bit far when you use words like leading "to ruin" and "further left behind" when talking about the region.  There are other things outside of the car vs. mass transit realm that are even more important to the economy.  If that were not the case, you wouldn't see places like Houston and Los Angeles and Raleigh/Durham and Austin and DFW doing as well as they are.

 

I'm also not 100% convinced that a project like Chisolm Trail is going to do anything to siphon energy out of the central city in Fort Worth.  Does anyone really think Cleburne will soon be stealing jobs from Fort Worth now that the toll road is open?  On the contrary, the people who really ought to be worried are the Cleburne businesses that are now facing the prospect of all their customers being able to drive 20 minutes to SW FW for goods and services.  The completion of the George Bush and of 121 in Frisco has absolutely spurred development there, and some of that development is at the cost of Dallas.  But connecting downtown Fort Worth to a suburb is a different proposition...it's quite literally a 2 way street which will bring people from the southwest region into downtown more often than in the past.  Would I have preferred that $1.4 billion be spent on mass transit instead of a new toll road?  Yeah.  But is infrastructure like the toll road leading us to ruin?  I'd say that's a dubious prediction.  

 

The reality is that our local economy is an extremely complex system.  Systems adapt over time, and ours has been adapting pretty well over the past few decades...some of that is due to good decisions and some of it is due to chance and the luck of geography and other factors.  Adaptation will continue.  Bring the density first, and then watch the mass transit capabilities emerge.  I'm not saying that people can't help push it along of course, but those decisions are only part of the story.

[FarSouth]

As someone who lives in the fringes of town this development is needed and wanted.

From most of what I read most of the posters seem to want us all to live in the dense inner city like New York or some other over populated area.

Part of what's great about Texas is that we have the space to spread out due to our land mass. Small developments across the city allow us to have minimal travel and access the things we want or need without constantly going into "town" causing congestion for those that live in the inner city.

[John T Roberts]

At the point where the thread went way off topic, those posts were split into a new thread under "City Issues".

[Fort Worthology]

From most of what I read most of the posters seem to want us all to live in the dense inner city like New York or some other over populated area.

 

No, no, no.  There's a world of things between "suburban sprawl" and "midtown Manhattan."  Stop reducing it to one extreme or the other.

[elpingüino]

To bring the discussion back to the CTP:

 

I frequently drive through the construction site for the massive CTP/I-20/183/Hulen/Bryant Irvin interchange. For some of the ramps, not even the piers have been built -- only boxed stubs 5 or 6 feet high -- so I have been wondering how the entire highway could be finished this fall.

 

I found the answer in this project map on the NTTA website. Zoom in, and you'll notice that some ramps that aren't open yet are red, such as the entire CTP/I-30/Forest Park interchange, which means that they're under construction. But what's interesting is that some ramps are yellow - "future direct connect ramps." This was the first time I'd seen NTTA say that some aspects aren't part of the current project. They are:

 

- Westbound I-20 to northbound CTP

- Eastbound I-20 to southbound CTP

- Northbound CTP to westbound I-20

- Northbound CTP to westbound 183

- Southbound CTP to eastbound I-20

- Eastbound 183 to southbound CTP

 

My guess is that this means that the traffic projections for those directions are too low to justify the expense of flyover ramps.

[John T Roberts]

Those ramps have been shown as future since before the construction began.  I would also say that your guess is correct, the traffic counts did not warrant construction of flyovers. 

[JBB]

It could also have a lot to do with funding. Wasn't this interchange partially (or even completly) paid for with federal stimulus money? It might not have been enough to cover everything. Just speculating.

[Roger_H]

I've driven the CTP a few times since it opened. I am puzzled by the fact that there is no access from the CTP to Hulen Street. That section of Hulen has got to be one of the busiest, most congested thoroughfares in the city. Yet there is an exit and entrance to Edwards Ranch Road, a road that basically goes through an empty field with a couple of projects under construction. I know the Edwards family were big supporters of the toll road, so I can't help but wonder if politics trumped traffic engineering in this case. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

[Volare]

Oops!

 

http://www.dallasnew...00000-error.ece

[Doohickie]

- Northbound CTP to westbound I-20

- Northbound CTP to westbound 183

- Eastbound 183 to southbound CTP

 

This blows my mind since I know a lot of Lockheed employees live in that direction.  They're saying the traffic volumes don't warrant it but they won't get many of those commuters until the direct ramps are there.  I was looking forward to trying it out at least as an alternate but if I have to wait at the traffic signal at Bryant Irvin to get over to the CTP it's not worth my time.

[JBB]

 

Oops!
 
http://www.dallasnew...00000-error.ece

Well, I guess that explains why it took them the better part of a year to place the beams on the stretch of roadway between Montgomery and the river.