1099 replies to this topic

[renamerusk]

Of course, the "Wright Amendment" issue will never go away; and lately, I have been giving a lot of thought to it and the impending ramifications from current events involving the departure of Delta Airlines, the projected arrival of "discount carriers" at the "Big Airport" and the certain fallout it will have upon the Love Field supporters.

Let me say firstly, that I am and have always been a strong backer of the Wright Amendment. Secondly, I am sad to read of the news of Delta Airlines virtually leaving DFW Airport. And thirdly, I suspect that Fort Worth/Tarrant County residents will soon be able to choose DFW over Love Field for discounted fares to many more destinations.

There are so many delicious (bad things for Dallas) in these turn of events that I, for one, am glad to be alive and living in Fort Worth today!

Note: 9/10/04 - my first bashing of Big D this year; pretty good, right?

[normanfd]

I don't know how big of a presence they have at DFW, but it seems that US Airways will be filing for bankruptcy before the weekend is over.

[tcole]

Rename,

I'm curiousas to what your thoughts are. Do you think that the introduction of a significant bridgehead by either AirTran or JetBlue at DFW might force Southwest to shift some flights to DFW (or just innaugurate long haul service there) - or would WN consolidate at DFW leaving perhaps a shuttle service between DAL and HOU at Love as Braniff did for most of the 70's after they moved to DFW? And Norman, Delta's presense at DFW never approached AA's, but 250 flight ops/day is not small - about Southwest's total at DAL. Their move also frees 25+ gate stands in terminal E.

[renamerusk]

Tcole,

Yes, that is one of the difficult choices that Southwest will have to comptemplate. DFW will be aggressive in its attempt to fill the vacancy created by Delta' departure from Terminal E as well as USAir's gates in Terminal B.

We are likely to see more and more discount carriers coming into DFW who will have unristricted access to all continental destinations. AA will not retreat; IT WILL COMPETE on what it considers ITS HOME TURF. As this unfolds, SWA will be faced with the proverbial scenario of "Being between a rock and a hard place".
How long can Love Field be or remain a profitable hub for SWA faced with the changes that are predicted for DFW?

In any event, Tarrant County residents and businesses are going to benefit greatly from the competition and lower fares.

"Keep Fort Worth Folksy".

[redhead]

Renamerusk, I am quite curious why you are a fan of the Wright Amendment...I am personally quite opposed to it! As a person who flies a great deal, I find that the locations without competition are severley overpriced. If American has competition, prices are much more reasonable. Consider someplace like Cleveland, OH: an AA ticket out of DFW will be like $1,400 during the middle of the week with no Sat. stay. Out of Houston, however, the same flight from DFW will be $400---due to the Continental competition. Okay, so I fly to Houston to come right back to DFW to save a grand. Stupid but true. Anyway, I think that with Delta gone, we really need to reconsider the Wright amendment...maybe I should lead the charge: WRIGHT IS WRONG!!!

[EricTCU]

Why doesn't Southwest or other low-fare carriers fly out of Meacham?? Wouldn't it have the same effect and restrictions as Love?

[Wildcard]

I am also against the Wright Amendment because of the restrictions it places on free competition in the local market. I don't think Southwest (WN) will ever serve DFW because of the reasons posted above, but even if the Wright Amendment were repealed it wouldn't have any detrimental effect on DFW airport or the city of Fort Worth because the operation at DFW is so unbelievably large.

For anybody who may not be familiar with this, the Wright Amendment was originally passed to protect the fledgling DFW from direct competition from Love Field (DAL) and to make DAL a regional airport for air traffic to/from the state of Texas. Well, it's been over 30 years and judging by the size of the operation at DFW I would say the Wright Amendment has been successful in its original intent.

But hasn't it outlived its usefullness by quite a few years now? As posted above, it prevents free competition and makes airfares artificially high in the area thus costing locals time and/or money to travel (either by having to drive to DAL then fly to another city, ie HOU, AUS, ELP etc) before continuing to the final destination; or by paying higher fares to AA at DFW. It also makes the entire area less attractive to tourists and conventions because of the higher costs to fly into either airport.

Love Field currently only has two or three unoccupied gates that are still operational in the east concourse, so even if the Wright Amendment were repealed today the amount of air traffic that Love would "steal" from DFW would be very tiny and there would be no detrimental effect to Fort Worth for that reason. The entire west concourse at DAL is taken up by WN and the north coucourse has been converted to office space and would require a substantial investment to be converted back to gates. Even then the entire north concourse only has around eight potential gates.

I would love to see WN service Meacham but the air terminal is very small there and it would be difficult for a major carrier to be successful without some big changes. There's also tons of smaller, private air traffic in and out of there which might pose an obstacle.

The Wright Amendment has been a thorn in my side for quite a few years now and I'm interested in hearing some different opinions about this even if they are opposing viewpoints!

[normanfd]

I think that having commercial passenger service out of Meacham would be a huge boost to Fort Worth. Of course, Meacham would require millions of dollars in order to be upgraded to a modern passenger airport, but the benefit would be tremendous in Fort Worth's ability to attract new businesses, and the airport could become a big magnet for businesses and employment in that area of the North Side as well.

By utilizing Love and Hobby, Southwest makes money by flying people from Dallas to Houston while all its competitors fly their passengers from Grapevine to Humble. Fort Worth would benefit if passengers could fly to Fort Worth instead of Grapevine as well. Meacham also offers travellers easy access to Downtown along North Main.

As far as traffic from small, private planes, those planes can simply relocate to any of the smaller airfields in the area.

DFW will sooner rather than later outgrow its capacity, so we also need to be thinking seriously about building the long-proposed second major airport that has been planned for the area around Mansfield and Midlothian.

[mosteijn]

Argh, good riddence to Delta, DFW was their "Dallas" hub. I hope AA picks up some of the gates at terminal E (and I hope their new ad campaign works).

I think the city should be seriously considering Meacham, since now they're upgrading Spinks to be a full service corporate jet airport (much like Addison), and I'm sure it could take all of Meacham's small plane traffic. Then we could focus on perhaps buying up all the land between Angle, Long, Main and Loop 820 and expanding Meacham to the level of Hobby or Love. If light rail ever gets approved, the N Main line would most likely have a stop at Meacham, renovation or not, and that alone would be a big boost to the airport (and enhance the need to upgrade it, if it isn't done already).

[redhead]

There was a carrier that flew (briefly) out of Meacham, but they did not make it for very long. It was awesome for us, as it is so convenient to make the jog to Meacham for a hop flight to SAT or AUS. Loved it! Liked it even better when our Austin clients send the corporate jets! Guess what, though, for all the "security" in the commercial terminals post 9-11, in the private ones there is ZERO. Zip, NADA. Hand your bag to the pilot and climb on board. No ex-rays, no dogs, NOTHING. Should not make you feel too warm and fuzzy, especially when you realize that there is an entire fleet of 757's, 67's and 777 that are owned by citizens of the United Arab Emirates...pretty scary. Sorry, I got off track...
Glad to hear that someone else thinks the Wright amendment needs to go, but Dallas and Fort Worth sued each other over the bloody thing last time repeal was attempted.

[RD Milhollin]

Although they are are good FW and regional citizens, AA is the gangster of US Airlines. Their anti-competitive tactics have virtually wrecked the domestic air market; deregulation of this vital US industry was a huge failure. Every time I hear of a proposed federal bailout I just cringe. AA set the tone for the cut-throat competition post-regulation period that saw the demise of a bunch of the domestic operators. Predatory pricing in medium-sized markets was their forte, dropping prices until the competition bailed, then having laissez-faire freedom to charge whatever they could squeeze out of travelers.

I have a bad feeling about what may happen at DFW when Delta pulls out. AA always had to consider the smaller major here when making pricing decisions, and I guess that prices may rise significantly with decreased competition. It would definitely be in the best interest of the airport to try to attract Southwest (WN) to offer competition, possibly in the E Terminal space being vacated. It would probably not be in WN's best interests though. The convenience of DAL for business and local travel to regional destinations is an overwhelming advantage for Southwest's Dallas County customers, even if they have to change planes at HOU to connect out of the region (no big deal if you are a regular Southwest customer.)

Let me offer another angle on this though. In a service industry like airlines, the profit margin on sales is quite thin. One of the major costs major airlines face is fuel, and more fuel is consumed taking off than any other phase of the flight. The price of jet fuel, as well as all petrofuels, is going to increase in the near future, and most likely in the long run as well. Thus, the fewer takeoffs and landings an airline makes the lower that segment of costs will be. Thus, if fuel costs continue to increase, long haul flights will be the most profitable, all other things held equal. Short haul flights, like those from DAL to HOU might be better served by high-speed straight-track rail, from city center to city center. Weather delays would be minimized, as would wasted time taxi-ing (is this supposed to be hyphenated??). A traveller might actually arrive downtown Houston faster on a 200 mph train than flying into Hobby and having to switch to ground transportation for the last 20 miles. Of course, the train is already envisioned as leaving from a station between the east and west terminals of DFW. There is no such alternative available for transcontinental or trans-oceanic travel.

One last thought: DAL is convenient, but due to its location is potentially quite dangerous. A mechanical failure during ascent could place a high speed missile in the direct path of either a dense residential neighborhood in Oak Lawn, or into the heart of a busy commercial district if this disaster should happen during the business day. A plane wreck into downtown Dallas might possibly result in a significant loss of life. This is the same reason I would advocate closing National Airport (DCA, sorry, I just can't bring myself to call it Reagan Airport), but of course the Senators and Congressmen who use it would never agree to that.

Prairie Pup

[JBB]

Argh, good riddence to Delta, DFW was their "Dallas" hub.

I'm sure you mean that with the best of intentions, but let's not lose sight of the fact that a lot of people are facing unemployment and they don't give a rip whether the hub was in FW, Dallas, or Kalamazoo.

[Buck]

Forget Meacham. DFW is our airport.

I think Southwest should consider competing with AirTran on a few flights at DFW. There's no reason Southwest couldn't, and having limited service wouldn't cut into American's business.

If Southwest can bump off AirTran -- that does American a favor.

If any airport further west ever attracts service again, it'll be Spinks.

[renamerusk]

Renamerusk, I am quite curious why you are a fan of the Wright Amendment...

Redhead,

Over time, I came to understand that the Wright Amendment was a "protectionist" act and not a "transportation" act. With the sole acception of the local flying consumer, it is and has remain popular with the four major actors: City of Fort Worth, City of Dallas, American Airlines and Southwest Airlines. Who is and is being protected: Fort Worth prevented and fought back, as it seems it most always be on guard against, yet another attempt of being colonized by Dallas; Dallas reaped 100% revenues from its wholly airport, Love Field, which it had traditionally enjoyed and was unwilling to relinguish, but for not a Federal mandate; American Airlines entered the market (Braniff was the dominant local airline) and created the 'hub" approach which has been an extremely profitable and brought frequent arrivals and destinations to and from the region;and Southwest Airlines, which cleverly used the Wright Amendment as cover to create the most successful discount carrier in the industry.
What really gripes me most is the notion that by enlarge Fort Worth and Congressman Wright are, themselves alone, responsible for the high airfare prices locally. Congressman Wright did, as did Delaware and other small states at the beginning of our nation when they insisted on a system where their vote would be equalled to the large states and insisted that each state has two senators regardless of their size --- as these early delegates did in protecting their citizens and businesses back in 1776, Congressman Wright did for Fort Worth by introducing and enacting the Wright Amendment. Fort Worth was very fortunate that he had the clout to get it enacted!!! Congressmen from Dallas certainly did not have any interest in doing so!!!!!

Now, to the matter at hand. Having severely impacted the bottom line at Delta in Atlanta, Airtrans and other discount airlines there are proving that they can create a niche market for themselves on the same turf with a "hub" carrier. Is this new economics or could Southwest Airlines have done the same thing at DFW twenty years ago? Might the local airline customers been enjoying discounted fares and thus saving millions of dollars had Southwest (aka Dallas' corporate sweetheart) operated out of the gates which have always been available to SWA at DFW?

It is and will remain a seminal point of contention, my viewpoint on the duplicity of SWA and Dallas in their lack of the share of responsiblity for high airfares in the local area.

That said, I sincerely hope that American Airlines will be able to compete with the projected discount airlines which are likely to enter the local market at DFW; a "Delta Solution" for American would be a diaster for Tarrant County/Fort Worth continued growth and development.

"Keep Fort Worth Follksy".

[renamerusk]

I think Southwest should consider competing with AirTran on a few flights at DFW.

Buck,

I agree with you; DFW is Our airport!!!

As for Southwest Airlines; I don't see it happening. Its all or nothing!!!!

1) Can Southwest afford to abandon the subsidy it receives from the City of Dallas?

2.) Can Southwest or any airlines operate two facilities in one area when
discount airlines match them using only one efficient facility?

3) Would the City of Dallas permit them to leave?

3. Litigations up their kazoozzz!!!! City of Dallas v. Southwest Airlines

Southwest's worst nightmare is a Terminal E filled with unrestricted discount carriers being able to fly to who knows where. It may seem unimaginable but someday Southwest Airlines could have to leave the area completely

[normanfd]

Short haul flights, like those from DAL to HOU might be better served by high-speed straight-track rail, from city center to city center. Weather delays would be minimized, as would wasted time taxi-ing (is this supposed to be hyphenated??). A traveller might actually arrive downtown Houston faster on a 200 mph train than flying into Hobby and having to switch to ground transportation for the last 20 miles.

Europe, East Asia, and the Washington-Boston corridor have demonstrated that when passenger rail infrastructure is established, it is much more efficiient and cost effective than air travel within 500-mile distances. Politicians claim that Amtrak doesn't pay for itself, while they don't judge it by the same norms that they judge highway or commercial aviation spending. If they did, they'd be surprised at how many people from this part of the state would choose rail over air or Interstate Highway travel to Houston, Austin, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, or Little Rock.

[mosteijn]

Argh, good riddence to Delta, DFW was their "Dallas" hub.

I'm sure you mean that with the best of intentions, but let's not lose sight of the fact that a lot of people are facing unemployment and they don't give a rip whether the hub was in FW, Dallas, or Kalamazoo.

Yeah, I was being a bit sarcastic, I should have put the wink smiley instead of the smiley. I do feel sorry for those families that will be affected by Delta's downsizing, not just here, but all over the place. I wish the airline industry would get back up to pre-9/11 levels, but that doesn't look like it will happen anytime soon.

[renamerusk]

In Denver, Frontier has helped hold down United, and AirTran does the same in Atlanta with Delta. But both those low-cost airlines have relatively limited service so have limits to their effects. Southwest has the opportunity in this region, as do others. But as was noted above, American is a ferocious competitor.

Ghughes,

For far too long, Southwest Airlines has been the beneficary of the Anti-Wright Amendment gang. Come on, as you yourself suggest, discount carriers can and do hold down airfares. The biggest apology is that "American is a ferocious competitor"; well of course they are and should be in a free market. I am suggesting that all the Wright Amendment detractors consider what saving could have been realized had Southwest moved into DFW decades ago. It does not appear that AirTrans, Froniter, AmericaWest are afraid of a "Ferocious American Airlines"; only Southwest, hiding behind the Wright Amendment, is "skeered!"

Southwest may have painted themselves into a corner when and should more discount carriers come to DFW; and American and the "discounters" engage in a airfare war. Tarrant County/Fort Worth residents and business, and even some in Dallas, will be the beneficaries.

"Keep Fort Worth Folksy!"

[jubjubking]

Now here is an interesting thought...I talked to someone I know works at DFW...said the current rumor floating about the gates is that jetblue,United's low cost carrier Ted and/or Virgin Airlines new american low cost product, Virgin America(http://www.virginamerica.com), have been seriously looking at entering this market. Now, if one or all of these take up gate slots being vacated by Delta, prepare for a serious fare war the likes we havent seen in years. In every market that jetblue has moved into, the prices as a whole(for markets covered) has dropped greatly.

Also, rumor is going around that Virgin Atlantic is also looking at setting up shop in the new international terminal. If that happends, look out american.

[tcole]

There are some great posts developing on this thread. Rename, you really have opened an interesting can of worms. I would bet that the strategy sessions over at WN's HQ are really heating up. Configured just for 737s, 1/2 of terminal E (about 3/5 of what Delta will vacate) could give Southwest 25 or so gate stands (almost 70% more than they have at DAL) and more than any other airport in their system save for possibly PHX. That is some serious potential for WN to consider in light of the ability from a DFW hub to penetrate triple the markets from here that they do now from DAL. But as someone else has pointed out, perhaps you rename, DAL is a huge cash cow for WN and is indirectly "served" by the Wright amendment. So I guess one of the questions that they will be looking at is whether Delta's departure represents "low hanging fruit" for someone and why let JetBlue/AirTran/et al have it when it is in your back yard.

[Buck]

Just to clarify, I never said Southwest should leave Love.

Southwest can easily operate long-haul flights at DFW and compete with AirTran or JetBlue.

As far as whether an airline can operate efficiently at two airports -- Southwest already does it in Houston at both Bush and Hobby.

[renamerusk]

As far as whether an airline can operate efficiently at two airports -- Southwest already does it in Houston at both Bush and Hobby.

Buck and ghughes,

One city operating two airports is about as efficient as one city operating multiple sports arenas; it may a convenience to the traveller, but efficient for the city's taxpayers, its not! For example, consider Dallas' dilemma of operating Fair Park Coliseum, American Airlines Arena and Reunion Arena!! You may have taken noticed that cities routinely implode stadium that they have replaced instead of continuing to bear the high cost of maintaining them.

As for any airline to provide duplicate or even triplicate service to a metropolitan area, I would submit that the metropolitain area has to be a mega center (20+ million) with accompanying demand to support such service; only LA and NY currently meet that criteria; DFW at slightly more than 5 million is not nearly at that stage of support; North Texas is a crossroads in the national transport network.

Here is a hypotetical: Chicago to North Texas; 12 daily flights; the first flight arrives in North Texas at 8am; where does the aircraft land, DFW or Love? Suppose you have an meeting in downtown FW; or you being served better by being in Dallas and having to commute to Fort Worth? And suppose all airlines decide that landing at Love is preferable then landing at DFW? Aren't Fort Worth and Tarrant County residents and businesses harmed?

Isn't DFW's central location and equal distance to more businesses in both cities more efficient?

And as for duplicate flights; there are costs associated with each take-off and landing; for instance insurance costs!

[tcole]

This information is dated, but 10 years ago when there was some rumbling over the Wright amendment and Sen. Shelby from AL was putting forth his proposal for limited expansion of the fed. legislation, the FAA indicated to the airlines that DAL could really only accommodate 400 flights per day (commercial traffic). WN currently flies 250+/- flights per day. These restrictions were due to airspace as opposed to gate space issues. Also, a sliding scale was assumed up to about 600 flights per day by restricting lighter GA traffic. So WN's abilities for expansion at Love are somewhat contained (DFW has airspace priority) and other players interest in DAL is somewhat limited as well.

Another interesting note: WN's gate lease at DAL expires in December of 2006 which limits the cost of the option significantly as to moving all operations to DFW should they decide to do so. My bet is that if they were to move operations to DFW to ensure command of the discount market at DFW, DAL would remain open for shuttle services to HOU, IAH, SAT, AUS, and possibly OKC. And there is a chance that AA and CO would compete at DAL as well in some fashion for that shuttle market. But I certainly do not know what WN is going to do. And I think that DFW (the metro area) could support 2 airports in such a fashion. I do not agree that the question is efficiency - Houston has two very successful ventures in IAH and HOU - but they tend to be complimentary in being on opposite ends of the metropolitan area whereas DFW and DAL compete for airspace and passengers. Rename is right though as to our need - or rather lack thereof - for a multiple airport network like LA - that is 2-4 million in population away - say 20 years at the very least. Given that scenario, Meacham fits very nicely into the mix in terms of airspace and location relative to projected population densities and commercial corridors.

[renamerusk]

Good and bad news! - Very topical and revealing piece aired on National Public Radio (NPR) 9/13/04 about how American Airlines is succeeding in reshaping its operating model to be a more efficient and customer centered airline. Even though I have some issues with American Airlines, this was especially good news to hear that AA, as the largest employer in Tarrant County, will be in a sound position to compete with the anticipated arrival of more low-cost airlines at DFW. In my daily travel over the eastern parts of the county, I am constantly reminded of just how many families directly or indirectly depend upon AA for their livelihood. I and all of us should be concerned if AA suffers the same downfall as has Delta in Atlanta.

I was compelled to re-ignite the Wright Amendment debate because Fort Worth and Congressman Wright are routinely villified for the high airfares locally. I thought it was time to spread the blame around as it should have always been.
Of course the obvious loser was the local air passenger. The winners: City of Fort Worth, City of Dallas, American Airlines, etal hub carriers, and Southwest Airlines. How the public could have focused the blame only on the FW and AA is obvious to me: the Dallas centered media in this region!

NPR's piece regarding the successes that AA are making was very comforting news to my ears. With AA now or soon to be in a stronger position, the low-fare carriers should be welcomed at DFW.

The Wright Amendment (WA) has protected Fort Worth's interest in this region; American Airlines is getting better; the City of Dallas has had its cake and eaten it too; and Southwest will soon be facing a battle which it has long avoided using the shield of the WA to do so. The Wright Amendment was the quintessential legislation to protect its constituency; Fort Worth for sure, but AA, Dallas and Southwest too. Otherwise, how do you think that it could have ever been enacted?

The Wright Amendment was and has been Right for Fort Worth in the long run; and that has made me come to appreciate it more than ever. In my humble opinion, the Wright Admendment is more than Right; its is brilliant!!!

And now for the bad news. The NPR reporter failed to mention Fort Worth at any time in his reporting, occasionally referring to Dallas; and used Dallas for his dateline.

[cjyoung]

The Wright Amendment is bad for Fort Worth. We will continue to be a "second-tier" city as long as it's in place, because DFW = Dallas.

DFW was setup from the beginning to be Dallas' airport and will always be known as "Dallas." Most people don't give a rat's a$$ about Fort Worth.

I would like to see Alliance open for passenger service.

If we would put the same energy into being more competitive (help to create more small businesses), I think Fort Worth would be so much better.

[renamerusk]

The Wright Amendment is bad for Fort Worth. We will continue to be a "second-tier" city as long as it's in place, because DFW = Dallas.

DFW was setup from the beginning to be Dallas' airport and will always be known as "Dallas." Most people don't give a rat's a$$ about Fort Worth.

Whoa cjyoung, chill out!

First of all, Fort Worth is not a second-tier city; its a third-tier city who knows how to be as good as it can be. Obviously, it is doing something right as it was recently proclaimed as one of the best places to live in America. Dallas is a second-tier city -- NYC, Chicago or Washington, argueably America's top tier cities; It Ain't!! You may question my classifcation, but Dallas' competition is Atlanta, Seattle and San Francisco. You judge for yourself how it rates among those cities. IMHO, its is better to be at the top of your class than to be at the middle or bottom of your class as Dallas seems to be perennially.

Your reading of the history of and the benefits seem to me to be unfounded and insupportable. How do you square the fact that DFW straddles the county line between Dallas and Tarrant County if it were only a "Dallas Airport"? How do you square the solid, unshakened support for the Wright Amendment from every city council elected since its enactment and the City of Fort Worth williness to and its actual carrying out of litigatation when this issue is provoked?

As for most people who don't care about Fort Worth, I will venture to say that is probably true on a nationally scale, but as for those of us here in the City of the Cow, we surely do give a bit more than a rat's' a$$ about Fort Worth and its well being!!!!!!!!

[mosteijn]

Your reading of the history of and the benefits seem to me to be unfounded and insupportable. How do you square the fact that DFW straddles the county line between Dallas and Tarrant County if it were only a "Dallas Airport"? How do you square the solid, unshakened support for the Wright Amendment from every city council elected since its enactment and the City of Fort Worth williness to and its actual carrying out of litigatation when this issue is provoked?

Actually, I agree with CJ. Whenever my family flies back home, my dad always tells the ticket agent "Dallas", and they know exactly what he's talking about. In Sao Paulo, the ticket actually read "Dallas DFW". Let's face it, people who don't live in Fort Worth aren't going to care about continuing after the first third of the airport name. And those that refer to it as DFW, unless they live in Fort Worth, tend to have the preconception that DFW is Dallas and ONLY Dallas. Bottomline: they might as well officially call the airport Dallas International for all the good it's done Fort Worth (in terms of recognition).

Oh yeah, and it seems more and more every day the only reason the world accepts Fort Worth's existence is as a population booster for Dallas. Pitiful...

[renamerusk]

Let's face it, people who don't live in Fort Worth aren't going to care about continuing after the first third of the airport name. And those that refer to it as DFW, unless they live in Fort Worth, tend to have the preconception that DFW is Dallas and ONLY Dallas. Bottomline: they might as well officially call the airport Dallas International for all the good it's done Fort Worth (in terms of recognition).

Well if you guys are argueing perception or recognition, then I feel that those are feelings which tend to be difficult to quantify and add little or no credence to the discussion at hand. I argue two points or facts which CJ must square: 1) It is indisputable that DFW straddles the county line separating Dallas and Tarrant Counties; in fact, much of the capital improvement would be located in Tarrant County if it were not a quasi-governmental entity unto itself. It is neither a Dallas or a Fort Worth asset. Love Field is Dallas' airport, lock and stock!; and 2). If Fort Worth does not feel that DFW is it's airport, the one that FW actually allow to replace and to subsequently use the site of its old Amon Carter Field, then why has FW gone toe to toe with Dallas and any others when issues surrounding it have arisen?

Perceptions are merely what they appear to be; facts are either true or untrue.

[cjyoung]

Your reading of the history of and the benefits seem to me to be unfounded and insupportable. How do you square the fact that DFW straddles the county line between Dallas and Tarrant County if it were only a "Dallas Airport"? How do you square the solid, unshakened support for the Wright Amendment from every city council elected since its enactment and the City of Fort Worth williness to and its actual carrying out of litigatation when this issue is provoked?

1. Most of the airport is in Tarrant County.
2. No one but people from Fort Worth say "I'm flying back to Fort Worth."
3. Fort Worth leaders are weak and spineless.

As for most people who don't care about Fort Worth, I will venture to say that is probably true on a nationally scale, but as for those of us here in the City of the Cow, we surely do give a bit more than a rat's' a$$ about Fort Worth and its well being!!!!!!!!

It's true locally and nationally. Why else would we have so many locally-based companies that have commercials that advertise using "Dallas" this and "Dallas-area" that.
How can Fort Worth-based KTVT have billboards with downtown Dallas on them all over Fort Worth?

Personally, I hate it and refuse to shop with companies such as The Men's Warehouse, Mattress Giant, Exxon Mobil, Dallas Cowboys/Mavericks/Stars, Six Flags (actually known as Six Flags Dallas) and I don't watch channels 5 or 11.

[mosteijn]

Personally, I hate it and refuse to shop with companies such as The Men's Warehouse, Mattress Giant, Exxon Mobil, Dallas Cowboys/Mavericks/Stars, Six Flags (actually known as Six Flags Dallas) and I don't watch channels 5 or 11.

I do the same thing (with the exception of Six Flags...I havn't heard it being called Six Flags Dallas yet so I won't let it ruin my fun )

[renamerusk]

1. Most of the airport is in Tarrant County.
2. No one but people from Fort Worth say "I'm flying back to Fort Worth."
3. Fort Worth leaders are weak and spineless.

1) True. More than just a bulk of the brick and mortar is in "TC".
2) True. In the truiest sense. When I leave or return, its from or to Fort Worth.
3) False. Fort Worth' leaders have been downright stubborn when it comes to DFW.

I am right there with you, "bro", on the personal boycotts. I try to avoid shopping with retailers who seem to be greciously insensitive towards Fort Worth's esteem.

I turn my attention away from Dallas skyline marketing billboards, particularly those in Fort Worth and environs. Their message, whatever its intention, never gets through to me as I am replused at the site of it. I am nauseated by having to witness repeated imagines of the "little green tower" (relative to the Chicago, or for that matter, Houston skylines). Enough already, "lgt" is not that impressive; Dallas' Trammel Crow Center is prettier IMHO.

[cjyoung]

This should probably go in another thread, but thank you to Pier1, Radio Shack, and Dickies for being proud of Fort Worth!

By the way, renamerusk we actually see eye to eye on everything except the leadership. My opinion is based on more than the airport issue.

Peace

[cjyoung]

  I do the same thing (with the exception of Six Flags...I havn't heard it being called Six Flags Dallas yet so I won't let it ruin my fun )

My son (who happens to be your age) applied for a job there this summer and the HR person had "Six Flags Dallas" in her signature.

[tcole]

Hey CJ:

A bit of confusion needs to be cleared up on my end. Are you saying that you do not patronize the institutions listed by you b/c their advertising assumes that we all live in the "Dallas metro" area or b/c the companies listed are based in Dallas? If it is the latter, and not that I am particularly a fan, but Men's Warehouse is based in Houston, although I refuse to patronize them for a number of other reasons. On a better note, I heard a radio spot yesterday for Silver Fox Steakhouses in which Dale Wamstead (owner/partner) querried why the Cowboys are not named the Dallas/Fort Worth Cowboys.

[urbancowboy]

I feel have to agree with CJ 100%. The airport does more for Dallas in terms of recognition than for Fort Worth. I would like to see Meacham open back up for commercial flights.

P.S. I think Six Flags did change its info on its website to Six Flags Dallas/Fort Worth.

[cjyoung]

Hey CJ:

A bit of confusion needs to be cleared up on my end.  Are you saying that you do not patronize the institutions listed by you b/c their advertising assumes that we all live in the "Dallas metro" area or b/c the companies listed are based in Dallas?  If it is the latter, and not that I am particularly a fan, but Men's Warehouse is based in Houston, although I refuse to patronize them for a number of other reasons.  On a better note, I heard a radio spot yesterday for Silver Fox Steakhouses in which Dale Wamstead (owner/partner) querried why the Cowboys are not named the Dallas/Fort Worth Cowboys.

No, I don't care where they are based.

I have a problem with the Men's Warehouse saying that they have "17 Dallas-area stores" when I know at least 3 of those are in Fort Worth. Not that I like their clothes, but if I did I still would not shop there.

Another example would be the Ultimate Electronics flyer that in the Sunday FWST that lists local stores as "Dallas, TX stores."

I also hate the Dallas Cowboys, Mavericks, and Stars referring to all Metroplex fans as "Dallas fans" or "fans back in Dallas."

Edited by cjyoung, 19 September 2004 - 05:18 PM.

[tcole]

Upon clarification CJ, I would support your grievances.

[mosteijn]

I have a problem with the Men's Warehouse saying that they have "17 Dallas-area stores" when I know at least 3 of those are in Fort Worth. Not that I like their clothes, but if I still would shop there.

That's like game rush "44 stores in the Dallas Area"

[redhead]

Somewhere I think we lost the Wright Ammendment thread...

[renamerusk]

Somewhere I think we lost the Wright Ammendment thread...

redhead,

No, the thread has not been lost.

This is an example of what I believe are the nuiances of the Wright Amendment. The WA is an "one of its kind" federal enactment of the feelings being expressed by some of us who believe that Fort Worth must always be on its guard to prevent itself from being colonized by its larger neighbor to the East. For that reason alone, it is brilliant and unprecedented!!!!

Many people fail to look beneath the surface to realize that the WA is more than just a transportation rule. Admittedly, the local traveler has suffered. The payoff has been that millions upon millions of air travelers hold tickets in their hands which read "Dallas/Fort Worth", many, of whom, are businesmen and get the repeated message that there is two parts to the region based upon equal billing. One hopes that this aids Fort Worth in getting its share of businesses inquiring about doing or operating a business in the region. Of course and then, Fort Worth can and usually does quite well for itself.

[normanfd]

I never understood why Fort Worth has always been treated as underneath Dallas' shadow. People recognize Washington and Baltimore as two separate cities, despite the fact that Fort Worth is bigger than Washington and will be bigger than Baltimore in another two years or so. Both cities are approximately the same distance from each other as Fort Worth and Dallas, and both are joined by suburban communities in between.

Is it because Baltimore is the older and larger city that it stays out of Washington's shadow? Is it because Washinton is the nation's capital that it stays out of Baltimores shadow? Is it because both cities are near equals in size (as is Fort Worth) that they stay out of each others shadow? Is it because neither is anywhere near as big as Dallas?

San Antonio is bigger than Dallas now, and it never has had a downtown as impressive as Fort Worth's, nor has it ever had as impressive of a collection of major corporate headquarters. By both of these measures, Fort Worth also puts to shame its peers in population, Austin, El Paso, and OKC, both presently and historically.

How is it that Oakland manages to keep an identity distinct from San Francisco in the national mindset? How does San Jose, also in the Bay Area, do the same ("Silicon Valley")?

And, most of all, how can we defend and promote our identity?

[tcole]

I will say this rename; your assertion that the WA has actually been a good thing represents some divergent thinking that is needed. In fact, your defense of the position has been solid in my mind especially in light of Delta's demise at DFW and how the dynamics of that consequence may shake out. And I "lean" toward the anti-WA argument - mostly based on a free market argument. Should the WA go away, I really think that the number of flights lost at DFW would be mitigated by airspace restrictions and the fact that (at least for AA) over 60% DFW's passenger movements are connecting within the network - DAL represents a more point to point market.

[renamerusk]

Whenever my family flies back home, my dad always tells the ticket agent "Dallas", and they know exactly what he's talking about.

Jonny, may I offer you a suggestion or two,

It is the duty of all good Fort Worth citizens to inform outsiders about our wonderful town. Just say "Fort Worth"; and if they inquire; don't say "Its near Dallas"; instead, say "Its in Texas"; afterall, you would have to admit that Texas is larger than Dallas. You might also say, "Fort Worth is the home of the Fighting F-16 Bomber Jet, you know the one that drops guided missiles in defense of you and America!"; afterall, everyone has heard of the USAF, right!"

[renamerusk]

I will say this rename; your assertion that the WA has actually been a good thing represents some divergent thinking that is needed. 

Thanks for the compliment. It was precisely my intent to ask people to think about the Wright Amendment in a light other than how it affected their personal pocketbooks. yes, indeed, WA has been brutal to the local flying public. In life, steps are necessary, such as taxes, which are often onerous but vital to the welfare of the polity.

What prompted me to stir the "WA Cocktail" yet again is the assertion that Fort Worth is solely responsible for and is the only benefactor of the WA which was recently aired in a local radio broadcast; and one most conclude therefore "Blame FW for the high airfares!

"Sunlight is the best disinfectant to combat the spread of such misinformation!"

Remember, always remain dilligent and

"Keep Fort Worth Folksy!"

[redhead]

Normanfd, I think you need to look at the Baltimore-Washington International airport and ask whther people actually say all of that, or is it still the Baltimore airport---the only point here is that other cities do have the same issues, they just don't seem to be quite as competitive about it. After all, would Baltimore ever envy DC?