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State of Downtown FW


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#201 Urbndwlr

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Posted 27 October 2022 - 01:20 AM

I didnt see a quote about Downtown land expansion. 

I noticed he mentioned how Texas A&M Law should have a positive impact and how more residential is expected.

He indicated Clearfork is likely to announce some new office next and seemed to predict something would get announced Downtown.

Those would have to be led by a company (i.e. an occupant). 

 

Rising interest rates have to affect commercial development the same way they are throwing the brakes on home buying and new home construction.

 

Maybe he is counting the Van Zandt office on 7th Street in this prediction of new office space - even though not quite Downtown.



#202 rriojas71

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Posted 27 October 2022 - 12:05 PM

Burnette's article in Fort Worth Report is upbeat and highly promising for DTFW's future.  Thanks for posting.  One of Burnette's comments intrigues me--that he foresees downtown land expansion as being necessary.  As downtown expansion is restricted by the river on the westside and I-30 on the south end, the likely land expansion is to the north (i.e., Panther Island) and to the east.

 

Even if only one new Class A office tower is built downtown in the next three-to-five years, it would be better than nothing.

The thing that intrigued me most about the article is that he said that he is seeing investment and developments coming from entities outside of the region.  That has always been FW's achilles heel



#203 elpingüino

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Posted 11 December 2022 - 01:31 PM

Star-Telegram: Is Fort Worth on the verge of a high-rise building boom like Austin? What experts say

It acknowledges that comparisons between Fort Worth and Austin might sound extreme, but that those conversations are happening here. Apparently numerous developers are watching Deco 969 as a bellwether before following suit with similar projects.

#204 John T Roberts

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Posted 11 December 2022 - 04:02 PM

It was a good article.  I would love to see more development in Downtown, but not at the expense of any historic buildings, especially those that are undesignated.



#205 Austin55

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Posted 11 December 2022 - 09:53 PM

That's a great article. I think FW is missing a lot of the factors that have blown up Nashville and Austin, but I do think that we'll continue to see a steady stream of new towers once Deco finishes up. 

 

The article also mentions the mystery condo tower that we have heard about but don't know any details on yet. 



#206 Crestline

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Posted 12 December 2022 - 08:41 AM

It was a good article.  I would love to see more development in Downtown, but not at the expense of any historic buildings, especially those that are undesignated.

 

Here's an academic question: What fraction of downtown acreage is historic buildings (whether or not designated)? My wild guess is 5-to-10 percent, which suggests that the risk from a boom to such buildings is low, all other things being equal. 



#207 John T Roberts

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Posted 12 December 2022 - 08:48 AM

Austin, this might be a task for you.  It would be interesting to find out, since I am always harping on this.  Since Crestline stated that the historic buildings could be designated or undesignated, I think you would have to qualify all of the buildings over 50 years old as "historic" in this case. Using this as the criteria, I can think of entire blocks that have buildings over 50 years old on them.



#208 Crestline

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Posted 12 December 2022 - 08:54 AM

In a related statistic, the Star-Telegram article states:

 

Downtown Fort Worth Inc. says one-third of downtown parcels are undeveloped or underdeveloped. “There is a lot of land downtown,” Taft said. “About 33% is either surface parking, completely vacant or underutilized.”
 
I wonder whether Taft is counting some of the "historic" properties in his "underutilized" category. 


#209 John T Roberts

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Posted 12 December 2022 - 09:08 AM

He may be counting some of those in his "underutilized" category.  He also might be counting those that are not City of Fort Worth Historic & Cultural Landmarks, which is the only level of designation that legally protects the building against demolition.  I can tell you that from my dealings with Historic Fort Worth and from my own research, the acreage of those buildings is extremely low.  You can check out those buildings on the Downtown Page.  Locally designated buildings that have legal protection are noted by the CFW and FWHSE identifiers.



#210 Nitixope

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Posted 12 December 2022 - 09:16 AM

 

In a related statistic, the Star-Telegram article states:

 

Downtown Fort Worth Inc. says one-third of downtown parcels are undeveloped or underdeveloped. “There is a lot of land downtown,” Taft said. “About 33% is either surface parking, completely vacant or underutilized.”
 
I wonder whether Taft is counting some of the "historic" properties in his "underutilized" category. 

 

 

I think underutilized applies to other properties in various states of use or unuse.  For example, this is an interesting design on the old Bank One drive-thru banking building at 700 Texas St.  I haven't checked to see if anyone is using it today as a bank, but in many ways, this seems rather underutilized for having over 60,000 SQFT of land area.  I'm not saying get rid of it, but looking at it on streetviews is sort of a "head scratcher" as to what is happening here.  I could think of some really cool uses for this building.

 

lOFsTO9.png



#211 John T Roberts

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Posted 12 December 2022 - 09:30 AM

I think the former Bank One Motor Bank could qualify as both surface parking and underutilized.



#212 Nitixope

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Posted 12 December 2022 - 09:55 AM

Also fits in the "commercial building that looks like it was built under a freeway overpass" category.



#213 Crestline

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Posted 13 December 2022 - 06:15 AM

I think underutilized applies to other properties in various states of use or unuse.  For example, this is an interesting design on the old Bank One drive-thru banking building at 700 Texas St.  I haven't checked to see if anyone is using it today as a bank, but in many ways, this seems rather underutilized for having over 60,000 SQFT of land area.  I'm not saying get rid of it, but looking at it on streetviews is sort of a "head scratcher" as to what is happening here.  I could think of some really cool uses for this building.

 

lOFsTO9.png

 

 

Every time I'm in the neighborhood and I see this drive-through, I imagine giving the entire block over to a grass-and-trees public park, fully landscaped, but while somehow preserving the massive concrete roof.



#214 roverone

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Posted 13 December 2022 - 09:09 AM

How about some grass-and-trees on top of that massive concrete roof too -- a cool deck park.



#215 JBB

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Posted 13 December 2022 - 09:59 AM

I would be fine with a privately operated park along the lines of the Sundance Square plaza.  The city can't maintain or improve the parks they have.



#216 RD Milhollin

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Posted 13 December 2022 - 09:57 PM

How about some 1 and 2 story "cottages" set on top the roof and plumbed in with "underground" utilities and trees and landscaping to provide shade and pastoral settings. Thieves are going to have a difficult time getting up there, as would ex-spouses or lovers who don't have an elevator code. There are a lot of urban buildings, especially parking garages that would seem to have wasted top floors... Who wants to leave a nice car up there with the blazing sun and occasional hail storms. I have never understood why this potentially very private, otherwise underused "real estate" in urban areas is not put to premium residential use.



#217 Austin55

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Posted 13 December 2022 - 10:03 PM

Catalyst Urban's downtown study has some pretty good maps that make the underutilized properties easy to see. 

 

DowntownFW_12.jpg?time=1670937833



#218 Nitixope

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Posted 13 December 2022 - 10:36 PM

That appears to be useful data. They are mainly categorizing open land but not factoring age of structure or designations in the ease or difficulty to develop ranking?

Question: they talk about a strategic plan for downtown through 2025. Is that a starting point, deadline or expiration date? We are just over 2 years away from that, I was trying to understand how that timeline factors into the equation.

#219 steave

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Posted 14 December 2022 - 01:44 AM

How is the water plant easy to develop? Would the city's pipes be able to handle if it water started flowing from a different direction? Or would they need to run a large pipe from where the plant is now to where a replacement plant would be? Seems complicated.



#220 mmmdan

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Posted 14 December 2022 - 11:19 AM

How is the water plant easy to develop? Would the city's pipes be able to handle if it water started flowing from a different direction? Or would they need to run a large pipe from where the plant is now to where a replacement plant would be? Seems complicated.

 

I think you are misreading the map.  The water plant, on both sides of Lancaster, is in the orange, hard to develop zone.



#221 rriojas71

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Posted 14 December 2022 - 10:07 PM

Why would the area near Pappasitos along Forest Park be difficult to develop.



#222 roverone

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Posted 15 December 2022 - 08:22 AM

If you look at the descriptions for the categories in the legend of the map you can see the factors they are considering.  Following the link, you can see these different factors isolated.  It seems as though the issue with the Pappasito's property may be multiple property owners.



#223 youngalum

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Posted 20 December 2022 - 05:04 PM

Why would the area near Pappasitos along Forest Park be difficult to develop.

I remember reading somewhere that the sites along FP have environmental issues that are costly to develop. 



#224 rriojas71

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Posted 21 December 2022 - 05:05 PM

Nitixope I think you have a lot of opportunity in this section to ask about proposed restaurants for empty spaces.  LOL



#225 Austin55

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Posted 13 February 2023 - 12:10 PM

State of Downtown Breakfast is tomorrow: https://www.dfwi.org...ntown-breakfast



#226 rriojas71

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Posted 15 February 2023 - 03:44 PM

https://fortworthrep..._eid=519a576b49

 

Article from the FW Report regarding the Downtown Recovery



#227 Nitixope

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Posted 15 February 2023 - 06:48 PM

First rule of construction: Dont count your chickens before they hatch.

Second rule of construction: it aint real until you can bill.

Third rule of construction: it aint real until the check clears.

#228 Nitixope

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 09:35 AM

Downtown Rebound story on CBS11 a few weeks ago:
https://www.cbsnews....worth-business/
  • TLA likes this

#229 roverone

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 10:19 AM

As someone who has had an office in the core of downtown for at least 15 years, these stories just do not ring true for on-the-street daytime energy.  To be sure, I'm part of the problem and not part of the solution: since COIVD I do not go to the office every day, but other folks in the office do, and I'm trying to motivate to ramp that up.

 

When I sit at my desk I see out to Main Street, and most every office visit I go out for a short walk.  It is still uncomfortably dead on the street and the people I do see seem more like they accidentally ended up down there.

 

I know that the stories are using reports that are based on metrics.  I do wonder if the metrics come from promotional sources.  They are not written by people who have a familiarity with the daytime feel of the city over time.

 

I get resentful about the stories, because they use language that implies that things are returning to what they were, but that is just not true; will probably never be true.  What we can be hopeful about is that it re-energizes to whatever the new daytime experience will be like -- and that doesn't seem very well defined yet.

 

Of course this is not unique to our city -- everything changed.  The pandemic was not unlike our freeze-mageddon for all of our plants -- it killed off a lot, and it takes time for the new plants to sprout and green up.  And they are not necessarily going to be the same plants.  But I do feel our city is having a "late spring" and we are behind some other places in regaining that daytime life and energy, whatever it might be.



#230 TLA

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 10:52 AM

As someone who has had an office in the core of downtown for at least 15 years, these stories just do not ring true for on-the-street daytime energy.  To be sure, I'm part of the problem and not part of the solution: since COIVD I do not go to the office every day, but other folks in the office do, and I'm trying to motivate to ramp that up.

 

When I sit at my desk I see out to Main Street, and most every office visit I go out for a short walk.  It is still uncomfortably dead on the street and the people I do see seem more like they accidentally ended up down there.

 

I know that the stories are using reports that are based on metrics.  I do wonder if the metrics come from promotional sources.  They are not written by people who have a familiarity with the daytime feel of the city over time.

 

I get resentful about the stories, because they use language that implies that things are returning to what they were, but that is just not true; will probably never be true.  What we can be hopeful about is that it re-energizes to whatever the new daytime experience will be like -- and that doesn't seem very well defined yet.

 

Of course this is not unique to our city -- everything changed.  The pandemic was not unlike our freeze-mageddon for all of our plants -- it killed off a lot, and it takes time for the new plants to sprout and green up.  And they are not necessarily going to be the same plants.  But I do feel our city is having a "late spring" and we are behind some other places in regaining that daytime life and energy, whatever it might be.

 

Very well said. My first impression of Downtown Fort Worth was around 2017 visiting a potential client. I walked across Sundance Square for the first time, grabbed a coffee at the Starbucks, and then sat in the square to work on my laptop. The energy was palpable, especially for someone who lived in the far North Dallas suburbs working away in a dull office park. The activity in downtown on a routine client visit set the stage for me to eventually move to Fort Worth (and then convince my parents to move here a few years later). 

 

I'm hopeful with all the residential projects popping up short term, we will see increased office activity. We're social creatures, young and old workers alike want a place to live/work/play when it is convenient, accessible, and the costs reasonable. I can't imagine many other cities who have as much potential as us.

 

I accept the full Monday-Friday, 8-5 is outdated for many companies post-pandemic. However, I work for a tech company founded during the pandemic. We started remote by necessity. Many people would assume we would never build offices. However, we've opened offices in the last few years - with a DFW office coming soon. 



#231 roverone

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 03:07 PM

As the day went on today I was reflecting on what I wrote earlier, considering whether I was being too grumpy. Ultimately I decided that even if I was a little grumpy, experientially I know what I see.

 

One not-well-formed thought that I had was that we have the Visit Fort Worth folks who do a great job of promoting our city to outsiders for tourism and hospitality, and the Chamber of Commerce who are about longer term economic development and prosperity, but maybe there could be a role for something that falls between those two.

 

A group that comes up with reasons / events that tip the scales to encourage people to come into their offices a few extra days rather than working from home.  We tend to think that most of the incentives about working from the office vs. home are related to the specifics of the business + the commute, but there are other things that influence that decision.

 

If I come into the office and my view of downtown is grim, then it is a little longer before that next office visit.

 

The Visit Fort Worth people know all about this and work hard to encourage and promote reasons for outsiders to come into our city, I imagine that ranges from making certain we have good facilities, all the way down to specific events.

 

It seems like there could be a different category of these things that are applicable to workers, to encourage them to come downtown just a little more, and in turn spend a little more money downtown, and restart the downtown daytime energy and economy.



#232 John T Roberts

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 04:42 PM

Roverone and TLA, I agree with both of you about Downtown.  I don't think the recovery is near as good as the CBS11 (Now CBS Texas) story indicated.  After the Downtown Fort Worth Walking Tours, we used to always grab lunch, or at the quickest, a refreshment.  Now, we either go home, or head to South Main, Magnolia, or other places.  I realize this is a Saturday, but if there aren't any low cost or moderate priced places to eat, we are heading out.  I don't go Downtown for business near as often after the pandemic, but for the few times I am down there during business hours, I have noticed that it is not near as active.



#233 Nitixope

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 05:30 PM

I dont understand why there arent more live events in Sundance Square like free concerts and things? I am really really out-of-touch with what goes in downtown, but the energy and atmosphere that comes with Main Street Arts once a year, even a fraction of that on a semi-regular basis I think would be an excellent thing. Maybe the noise and traffic is too much but things within reason like you would see at Arlingtons Levitt Pavilion.

#234 ramjet

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 06:37 PM

I have to disagree with some of the opinions expressed about the current state downtown Fort Worth. I would say the apex of downtown was about 2014-15 just after Sundance Square was opened. I remember visiting from Austin at the time and really enjoyed the overwhelming energy of the place.  But think about what's happened across the country since then to all cities and downtowns across the U.S. LIving in downtown Austin from 2011 to 2022 I can tell you its wonderful energy was as decimated as any city even with all the mighty towers that were/are being constructed.  Living in downtown Fort Worth since last October has been wonderfully terrific. Those who work and live down here that I've talked to are very upbeat about downtown's future.  And I'm quite the talker to strangers. And all such incredibly decent and nice people. And I've run into people all across the world who have expressed their positive impressions of Fort Worth (again, I'm not shy). All of the future plans for downtown Fort Worth have been well documented on this Forum. I look forward to its future. BTW, Sundance Square has begun their weekend concerts now that the weather has warmed. Hope to see y'all there sometime.



#235 TLA

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 06:57 PM

Hopefully, I didn’t come across too pessimistic on downtown. The weekends and many nights are lively, it’s much of the 8-5 type activity that needs improvement. I see/hear second hand from my folks how lively it is, like salsa in the Water Gardens or music in Sundance. The convention center crowd is huge on weekends.

#236 Nitixope

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 10:14 PM

ramjet was right, there is live music in Sundance.
https://www.dfwi.org...sundance-square

Not to trip over my own words (which I am fairly accustomed to doing) but I feel so out-of-touch with the music scene these days, I dont even know anymore what would get me out of the house to see a free or paid show live. Theres some pretty decent tribute bands out there even some not too awful cover bands if youre into that thing. Whatever it is, I would hope it to be fairly loud if Im being honest, like louder than peoples chitter chattering around me loud, preferably with a full stage setup with drums, bass, guitar, keys etc and not something you would see in the atrium of a shopping mall, but thats just my taste and Im just one person. Theres been a few bands playing outside Central Market and at The Woodshed that I noticed in passing that may have had some appeal but no idea who they were but it sure sounded pretty good at the time.

#237 rriojas71

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 10:18 PM

I hear what you're saying Nitixope.  I think sometimes getting out and making an effort on occasions and just enjoying the music, being outside and just being amongst people is what I have to make myself do from time to time.  Sometimes the effort is hard but the outcome is usually better than what I assumed it was going to be.



#238 Nitixope

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Posted 12 March 2023 - 10:56 PM

Thats a good point, rriojas71. Sometimes just being around the action is worth it. If I came across the small rock band playing at Central Markets parking lot, but in Sundance Square, I would not be disappointed. They had a nice sound, good vocals, very talented, family-friendly (no F-bombs dropped etc) and overall just enjoyable to have playing either in background or to sit and watch start-to-finish. I want to say they were even using some kind of mobile stage trailer thing but I might have imagined that. I did see their bass player used the same cabinet that I owned at the time (Ampeg SVT-810E).

#239 ramjet

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Posted 13 March 2023 - 04:20 PM

More positive news on the state of downtown Fort Worth:

 

https://www.cbsnews....town-districts/



#240 Nitixope

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:53 AM

Fort Worth Chamber announces new entity to lead economic development efforts:

https://www.star-tel...digest_business



#241 Nitixope

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 08:45 AM

I was looking at DFWI's "State of Downtown 2022" report.  Is the number of residents downtown really declining? https://ctycms.com/t...i-sod22-web.pdf

 

2017: 7,783 Downtown residents / 4,323 residential units

2018: 9,684 people live in Downtown / 3,984 apartment units

2019: 10,278 Downtown residents / 5,194 residential units

2020: 10,974 Downtown residents / 5,619 residential units

2022: 8,685 residents live in Downtown / 4,241 existing apartment units / 3,257 additional residential units are in various stages of the planning process and currently under construction



#242 steave

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 07:02 PM

What accounts for the loss of 1378 residential units? Or are those occupied units? There was a similar drop between 2017 and 2018 despite an increase in population. I notice one says residential units and the other says apartment units.

 

Are they alternating between counting people at the jail and not counting them?



#243 johnfwd

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Posted 20 April 2023 - 06:42 AM

What accounts for the loss of 1378 residential units? Or are those occupied units? There was a similar drop between 2017 and 2018 despite an increase in population. I notice one says residential units and the other says apartment units.

 

Are they alternating between counting people at the jail and not counting them?

I'm puzzled by this, as well.  But, with Deco opening soon, I believe the apparent shortfall in the number of residents will be reversed. 



#244 Nitixope

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Posted 20 April 2023 - 08:05 AM

I don't recall, but why the huge dip in apartment occupancy in Q4 2018?  C-19 wasn't really a factor until Q1 2020 but doesn't appear to have had much of an impact. 

 

DhEZ1ab.png

 

As comparison, here's the office occupancy rates.  Will be interesting to see how / if MBS crisis or default risk will impact these figures moving forward.  https://nypost.com/2...-debt-analysts/

K38wJJs.png



#245 Nitixope

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Posted 21 April 2023 - 11:30 AM

I ran some graphs in Excel based on DFWI's annual report data that we were discussing above:

 

kMFPsr0.png

 

Same data just plotted on their own scale to better see changes:

 

uWCMzBi.png

 

FiJbCRT.png

 

0TBR5I3.png

 

mNiAgrB.png



#246 Urbndwlr

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Posted 25 April 2023 - 11:17 AM

Thank for compiling and graphing this.

 

What possibly explains the drop of 1300 Downtown residents from 2020-22? 

 

I get the pandemic response by people in small units with elevators and no private outdoor space. This prob depends on what time of year that is measured - if 12/31/20 - 12/31/22 I would assume it would have increased as by December 2020 would have already accounted for any Covid-related move-outs and by 12/31/22 should have already had people flow back in plus some move-ins at Burnett Lofts. 

 

Not to stir the pot, but what was the timeline on change in Sundance Square Management and when did that start to result in restaurant closures, etc? 

Might have put a chill over demand for Downtown residential if they think most restaurants in north half of Downtown are closing.






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