73 replies to this topic

[renamerusk]

If any topic ever deserves it own thread, this may be it.  

BTW, I like the M&O units over the Tandy units.

 

I was going to make this a poll, but I figured it would be better to just say what you believe was the worst thing to happen. I know a lot of you have your opinions on it, so I'll just make this one open. 

 

 

I'll start it off by saying that I believe demolishing the old Med. Arts Building for Burnett Plaza was an absolutely awful idea. I HATE Burnett Plaza. I'm sure many of you know that... but it's NOT what I think is the worst decision.

 

Honestly, I think getting rid of the old Tandy (Leonard's) Subway was the biggest mistake. I'm sure many of you wont agree with that, but I feel that it could have been something more. We could have been the only city in Texas with a full, functioning subway system. Sure it was only a mile and went from one stop in downtown to a parking lot a mile northwest, but it was still a subway.

 

Maybe I'm being to overly optimistic, but I could envision a subway line running up and down Throckmorton, Houston, 1st, & 9th Street. Of course, it would only stay underground in downtown. I'd be crazy to suggest a full underground subway anywhere outside of it. The rest of it would be typical light rail. 

 

 

Just my take. It's not gonna happen now, but a guy can dream. 

 

 

 

It totally breaks my heart to think that we could've expanded the subway. I didn't even know that was an option.  I think between shutting down the subway and demolishing Hell's Half Acre that those two things really would have helped Fort Worth maintain a stronger national and regional identity.  The subway at the very least would be an awesome tie into a modern streetcar system (like Philadelphia), and Hell's Half Acre would probably be Sixth Street (Austin) meets The Strand (Galveston).  Gosh now my night is ruined thinking of all that wasted opportunity.  I'm sure I'll get over it soon.

 

 

The city actually had a plan in the '70s to take over the Leonard's subway and expand it through the rest of downtown and the surroundings.  I used to have a PDF of the plans.  I dearly wish I hadn't lost it.

[renamerusk]

One of the first item on Future Mayor Joel Burns' agenda ought to be getting this long neglected and sleeping asset resurrected.

[johnfwd]

One of the first item on Future Mayor Joel Burns' agenda ought to be getting this long neglected and sleeping asset resurrected.

Not to delve into a political discussion (another thread), but isn't Mayor Price a rail transit advocate?  And the current city council has been talking about both commuter and high-speed trail lately.  Seems to me the current mayor and council are ripe for, at least contemplating, your idea.

[mmmdan]

Seems to me they care more about getting people into and out of the city more than getting around the city.  Isn't the current council pretty much the same one that killed the streetcar study?

 

I was just reading this blog http://www.strongtow...ml#.U9plL_1CxBY and I think the following quotes apply to Fort Worth as well.

 

If the city’s goal is to cater to the suburban and exurban commuter, again, I ask why? Is there a belief that the financial cost inflicted on the city by building highways through neighborhoods, devaluing its property and turning the streets hazardous are somehow made up by the money suburban commuters bring to the city? Where is the proof of that? They need you more than you need them, especially if you stop fighting congestion and instead use it to bring about a natural market response to high demand (greater investment, maturing neighborhoods and growth).

 

If I were a resident and a voter in this city, I would ask my city council members: why are you obsessing over the happiness of people who are so eager to leave your city and not equally obsessing over my happiness to stay?

[renamerusk]

 

One of the first item on Future Mayor Joel Burns' agenda ought to be getting this long neglected and sleeping asset resurrected.

Not to delve into a political discussion (another thread), but isn't Mayor Price a rail transit advocate?  And the current city council has been talking about both commuter and high-speed trail lately.  Seems to me the current mayor and council are ripe for, at least contemplating, your idea.

 

 

No.  I do not believe that the current mayor and council are ripe for contemplating the idea of reviving the M&O subway; my guess is because of their obsession with the DFW Airport Connection, or intercity transportation systems, it just does not ever cross their minds.  As of this lack of interest, I am puzzled of the why.

 

I predict that a Mayor Burns would be a strong advocate of a M&O project.

[Jeriat]

Even though I'd be perfectly happy with above ground light rail, it would be amazing (and something else we can say about our city that other cities in Texas can't) to kick this off again.

 

My hope now is that at least some of the citizens make a campaign to put more importance on INNER city rail, just as much as Commuter Rail. Or should I say more than Commuter Rail, since it's been dragging for years.

[Electricron]

Even though I'd be perfectly happy with above ground light rail, it would be amazing (and something else we can say about our city that other cities in Texas can't) to kick this off again.

 

My hope now is that at least some of the citizens make a campaign to put more importance on INNER city rail, just as much as Commuter Rail. Or should I say more than Commuter Rail, since it's been dragging for years.

If inner city rail is important, the best way to finance it is by doubling FWTA sales tax revenues by doubling its rate from 0.5% to 1%. Talk all you want about building inner city or commuter rail priorities, FWTA will still need the increased revenues to build and operate both.

[renamerusk]

If inner city rail is important, the best way to finance it is by doubling FWTA sales tax revenues by doubling its rate from 0.5% to 1%. Talk all you want about building inner city or commuter rail priorities, FWTA will still need the increased revenues to build and operate both.

 

Again that misses the point. The best way for building inner city rail priorities is to abandon commuter rail priorities; or at least setting inner city priorities ahead of regional priorities.

 

I am all for doubling the rate if the revenue is to be spent for busses and transit within the inner city. 

 

Suburbanites are welcome to move into the city, in fact, I would encourage them to do so.  In the case of suburbs v. inner city,  my personal feelings are to let suburban commuters fend for themselves since they have chosen to live where they do. 

 

As for the FWTA, if it is reconstituted towards a more narrow focus on the inner city mobility needs, then it will have my support, but if not, I hope that it is disbanded.

[Jeriat]

 

Even though I'd be perfectly happy with above ground light rail, it would be amazing (and something else we can say about our city that other cities in Texas can't) to kick this off again.

 

My hope now is that at least some of the citizens make a campaign to put more importance on INNER city rail, just as much as Commuter Rail. Or should I say more than Commuter Rail, since it's been dragging for years.

If inner city rail is important, the best way to finance it is by doubling FWTA sales tax revenues by doubling its rate from 0.5% to 1%. Talk all you want about building inner city or commuter rail priorities, FWTA will still need the increased revenues to build and operate both.

 

 

 

In all honesty, I'd rather not have the FWTA even be involved with this.... 

[Not Sure]

 

Even though I'd be perfectly happy with above ground light rail, it would be amazing (and something else we can say about our city that other cities in Texas can't) to kick this off again.

 

My hope now is that at least some of the citizens make a campaign to put more importance on INNER city rail, just as much as Commuter Rail. Or should I say more than Commuter Rail, since it's been dragging for years.

If inner city rail is important, the best way to finance it is by doubling FWTA sales tax revenues by doubling its rate from 0.5% to 1%. Talk all you want about building inner city or commuter rail priorities, FWTA will still need the increased revenues to build and operate both.

 

 

I would also like to see greater involvement from surrounding cities. Part of the reason DART is so successful is the greater percentage of sales tax it collects. Just as important a reason is the number of surrounding cities involved. FWTA has Fort Worth and Richland Hills (is Lake Worth still in the mix?).

 

Membership in the transportation group for the county a city is located in should be compulsory, in my opinion. Since that's not likely and since there's not much political will in this part of the country to volunteer for greater taxes, FWTA will likely continue to flounder.

[urbancowboy]

I believe Lake Worth left, but Blue Mound is a member. There might be more interest from our suburbs to join once the TEX line is opened.

[RD Milhollin]

Maybe it is time to consider a combined city/county government. NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, New Orleans, Baton Rouge, Lexington KY, Indianapolis, Augusta GA, Athens GA, Jacksonville, Nashville, Denver, Honolulu, Kansas City KS, San Francisco, and Anchorage all operate under some for of combined city-county government.

[Electricron]

Maybe it is time to consider a combined city/county government. NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, New Orleans, Baton Rouge, Lexington KY, Indianapolis, Augusta GA, Athens GA, Jacksonville, Nashville, Denver, Honolulu, Kansas City KS, San Francisco, and Anchorage all operate under some for of combined city-county government.

But not a single example in Texas. Have you looked at the Texas Constitution lately? Counties in Texas have far more "constitutional" responsibilities than they do almost everywhere else in the country. I believe some amendments to Texas' Constitution will be needed to initiate a combined city-county government in Texas. There's so many amendments already I'm not going to suggest that task will be impossible - but I am going to suggest it will be politically improbable.

[renamerusk]

 

Maybe it is time to consider a combined city/county government....

 

..... I believe some amendments to Texas' Constitution will be needed to initiate a combined city-county government in Texas. There's so many amendments already I'm not going to suggest that task will be impossible - but I am going to suggest it will be politically improbable.

 

I would suggest that none of this is needed.  

 

The M&O was a private project; and its rebirth, I hope, could be accomplished by a private/federal/city effort.  I would hope that the FWTA would not be involved.

[Austin55]

Having just got back from Seattle, this reminds me of the old Alweg monorail they have up there. It just runs between the worlds fair site and downtown, every 10 minutes. Only has two stops. Uses a single train at a time. The line is run by a private company. It runs about one mile. It was always packed, Wiki has a listed daily ridership of 7,000. 

 

I wonder is a similar monorail (or other elevated system) could be in any way used in FW. It seems cheaper than to build than a subway and less intrusive than a streetcar, 

[Fort Worthology]

I have always found elevated systems to be far *more* intrusive than ground-level systems.  The elevated track is never enjoyable to be around from a pedestrian perspective.

[Jeriat]

Whenever I think "Monorail", 3 things come to mind:

 - Dated (it's a 60's thing, when everyone thought we would be living in a Space Age, which was supposed to be around 14 years ago)

 

 - Theme Parks

 

 - That classic Simpsons episode

 

Personally, I think monorails should only be used for a few specific reasons. Public Transportation isn't one of them.

 

Now, when Casino Beach is reborn, perhaps...

[Electricron]

Downtown Fort Worth is surrounded by railroad tracks in every direction. Streetcars and light rail trains that aren't FRA compliant, will either have to go above or below these tracks. Look at how much the TexRail tracks heading north of downtown towards Tower 60 will be above grade. A streetcar line north towards the stockyards would have to cross both the River and the FWWR tracks. A streetcar line to the south would have to cross the UP tracks. A streetcar line to the west would have to cross the FWWR tracks. A streetcar line to the east would have to cross both the UP and BNSF tracks. 

 

There might be a point building an elevated line through downtown Fort Worth to at least the ring of tracks surrounding it. 

 

Downtown Dallas is no longer surrounded by railroad tracks. The light rail lines don't have to cross the tracks to the west as it runs adjacent and parallel just to the east of them. The tracks to the north was repurposed into a bike trail. The tracks to the east was repurposed by DART into light rail lines. The tracks to the south DART built viaducts over, or had service abandoned.  DART was lucky when it came to freight tracks.

 

Fort Worth will not be so lucky.

[Austin55]

Kevin- I somewhat disagree. Seattle's system is very open and not all that obtrusive or unpleasant at all. It also elevates crowds and stations above sidewalks, or in some cases within buildings themselves (Seattle's downtown line ends in a shopping mall and above an underground transit station) It does have a disadvantage of taking away some streetspace for it's support system though. But in an auto reliant city, having separation between cars and trains might help convince the general public it's a good idea. 

 

Jeriat-  To me monorail are the most modern form of mass transit, more so than streetcars or light rail or anything like that. While they are good at moving people about theme parks, theme parks are also pedestrian oriented places. I've never seen the mentioned simpsons episode. 

 

Seattle's system, 

 

I don't think a Monorail would look appropriate running near the Stockyards or Southside, but perhaps a Cultural District-Downtown monorail could be a reasonable idea?

 

 

Run across a nice website advocating more monorail's here -> http://www.monorails...spages/Why.html

[Jeriat]

You don't remember this? 
 

sZBPoRwog00

 

JjTv_bJRwf4

[Fort Worthology]

Just because an elevated monorail has less "impact" on cars than a surface-running system doesn't mean that's automatically a good thing.  Don't discount the traffic calming effect of surface transit, which helps reclaim neighborhood main streets from being higher-speed traffic funnels to being true mixed-use neighborhood streets again.  I get why it can be seen as a good selling point to car-crazy citizenry to get trains off the street, but I really believe that this attitude does transit a disservice in the long run.  Modern transportation planning is about the people-moving ability of the street, not the car-moving ability of the street, and transit in the street helps to transform those streets into better places even for people simply walking down the street (not only through traffic calming, but also through all the associated improvements that come along with a transit line - better pedestrian infrastructure, etc.)

 

Elevated stations are also quite a bit more expensive and awkward to use (including the requirement of elevators).

 

And there's no such thing as an "off-the-shelf" monorail system - it's all got to be custom built, unlike things like light rail and streetcars, which have proven, readily available components and vehicles.

 

Also, it's more difficult to build an actual transit system out of monorails - things like switches, etc. are hugely complicated and pricey compared to the ones for conventional transit systems.  One reason why you rarely see monorails in any context besides a simple Point A to Point B one-line route or a closed system like a theme park.

[renamerusk]

Downtown Fort Worth is surrounded by railroad tracks in every direction. Streetcars and light rail trains that aren't FRA compliant, will either have to go above or below these tracks. Look at how much the TexRail tracks heading north of downtown towards Tower 60 will be above grade. A streetcar line north towards the stockyards would have to cross both the River and the FWWR tracks. A streetcar line to the south would have to cross the UP tracks. A streetcar line to the west would have to cross the FWWR tracks. A streetcar line to the east would have to cross both the UP and BNSF tracks.....

 

"That is not so".  There are existing tunnels and ROW which can be used to enter and exit downtown without crossing RR tracks.

 

As for the topic at hand, the M&O is an existing ROW into downtown that could be tied to existing FWRR ROW to connect to the north and to the west never while never once needing to cross private RR tracks.

[Dylan]

If Gateway Park ever gets built as planned, I think it would be a good idea to connect T&P or ITC with the park by elevated streetcar or monorail.

 

http://trinityriverv...master-plan.pdf (PDF)

 

I suggest this because it would be difficult to connect downtown and the park on ground level.

[Electricron]

Just because an elevated monorail has less "impact" on cars than a surface-running system doesn't mean that's automatically a good thing.  Don't discount the traffic calming effect of surface transit, which helps reclaim neighborhood main streets from being higher-speed traffic funnels to being true mixed-use neighborhood streets again.  I get why it can be seen as a good selling point to car-crazy citizenry to get trains off the street, but I really believe that this attitude does transit a disservice in the long run.  Modern transportation planning is about the people-moving ability of the street, not the car-moving ability of the street, and transit in the street helps to transform those streets into better places even for people simply walking down the street (not only through traffic calming, but also through all the associated improvements that come along with a transit line - better pedestrian infrastructure, etc.)

 

Elevated stations are also quite a bit more expensive and awkward to use (including the requirement of elevators).

Whereas one responder suggested monorail, I included elevated light rail. I agree with you that monorail systems provide more difficulties than elevated light rail systems. Follow DART's green line through the Medical District to visualize what an elevated modern light rail line looks like. 

[Austin55]

A while back someone posted a PDF (I think) of a feasibility study to extend the subway towards the City Hall/T&P station. I can't find it anymore. Anyone have it handy?

[renamerusk]

.... I can't find it anymore. Anyone have it handy?

 

Well I tried to find it. It is very difficult when comments and information are posted willy-nilly.  If and when it is able to be found; an attempt will be made to place it in an appropriate topic/thread.

[Jamie]

It was apparently lost when the North Texas Transport website was revamped last spring. I have the file in .mht format (4.5 MB) but can't seem to figure out how to upload it here.

[David_H]

Jamie, you are right, the file seems to no longer be available in the original location. 

 

I had saved a PDF in my Dropbox - you can get it here: http://djh.cc/2ueHmsC

[renamerusk]

Finding and reading the M&O Subway PDF is exciting and opens up a reasonable possibility of rail transit in Downtown.

 

One option which ought to garner serious consideration is the combine the use of the M&O Subway Tunnel (MOST) and a Street Car Line.

 

If MOST operated in its original capacity as a sub-terrarium terminal, it should be feasible for a terminal to be built on Taylor Street at surface above the MOST terminal.   The street car route could cross through Downtown using Taylor and Texas Streets; turn onto Jennings Street; and operate a path using Jennings to the JPS Hospital.

[AndyN]

There are several folders worth of M&O & Leonards information & pictures up for bid in the RadioShack auction on UBid.

[Jeriat]

There are several folders worth of M&O & Leonards information & pictures up for bid in the RadioShack auction on UBid.

 

They're just giving it away...?

[JBB]

No, it's an auction, not a raffle.

[AndyN]

I think the lot was bidding at $26 last time I looked.

[renamerusk]

...... I wish we could find a way to revive the old Leonard's/Tandy Subway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The will and vision are what is lacking. The obvious solution is to reopen the M&O Subway  beneath Downtown and to extend it to the north!   I do not for an instance understand or would support a new rail bridge/line to connect Core Downtown to Panther Island when a rail connector/tunnel exists today but is not being seriously discussed as the first option.  I am confident that reopening the tunnel would be highly popular with the general public.

 

Simply reopen the tunnel; extend the line across the West Fork with a bridge paralleling the Trinity Trail; extend the line up North Houston Street until it meets the FWRR where it parallels along side of the FWRR ; crossing the FWRR north of North Side Drive; and terminating the line at the Stockyard Station.  I do believe that reopening and extending the subway through P.I. and terminating the line in the Stockyards can be done at a modest cost.  Here's an aerial view of the layout of a potential route -

 

https://www.google.c...m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

In addition, a second transit center for Downtown is needed. Close Taylor Street between Weatherford and 2nd Streets where only busses can load and unload riders at a Trinity Metro Transit Center housed ideally at City Center

https://www.google.c...!7i13312!8i6656

 

Finally, the notion of a Panther Island Circular is a ridiculous idea...circulate to what and for what purpose?

[Jeriat]

 

...... I wish we could find a way to revive the old Leonard's/Tandy Subway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The will and vision are what is lacking. The obvious solution is to reopen the M&O Subway  beneath Downtown and to extend it to the north!   I do not for an instance understand or would support a new rail bridge/line to connect Core Downtown to Panther Island when a rail connector/tunnel exists today but is not being seriously discussed as the first option.  I am confident that reopening the tunnel would be highly popular with the general public.

 

Simply reopen the tunnel; extend the line across the West Fork with a bridge paralleling the Trinity Trail; extend the line up North Houston Street until it meets the FWRR where it parallels along side of the FWRR ; crossing the FWRR north of North Side Drive; and terminating the line at the Stockyard Station.  I do believe that reopening and extending the subway through P.I. and terminating the line in the Stockyards can be done at a modest cost.  Here's an aerial view of the layout of a potential route -

 

https://www.google.c...m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

In addition, a second transit center for Downtown is needed. Close Taylor Street between Weatherford and 2nd Streets where only busses can load and unload riders at a Trinity Metro Transit Center housed ideally at City Center

https://www.google.c...!7i13312!8i6656

 

Finally, the notion of a Panther Island Circular is a ridiculous idea...circulate to what and for what purpose?

 

 

...I'll get back to this after work. 

[renamerusk]

Did anyone go to see the new Robert Redford movie? It's called 'The Old Man and the Gun.'  Fort Worth and I read that locations included....Oh and the old Leonard's subway tunnels!

 

 

 

...... I wish we could find a way to revive the old Leonard's/Tandy Subway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The will and vision are what is lacking. The obvious solution is to reopen the M&O Subway  beneath Downtown and to extend it to the north! ...... I am confident that reopening the tunnel would be highly popular with the general public.

 

Simply reopen the tunnel; extend the line across the West Fork with a bridge paralleling the Trinity Trail; extend the line up North Houston Street until it meets the FWRR where it parallels along side of the FWRR ; crossing the FWRR north of North Side Drive; and terminating the line at the Stockyard Station.  I do believe that reopening and extending the subway through P.I. and terminating the line in the Stockyards can be done at a modest cost.  Here's a layout of a potential route -

 

https://www.google.c...4501827212&z=15

 

In addition, a second transit center for Downtown is needed. Close Taylor Street between Weatherford and 2nd Streets where only busses can load and unload riders at a Trinity Metro Transit Center housed ideally at City Center

https://www.google.c...!7i13312!8i6656

 

Finally, the notion of a Panther Island Circular is a ridiculous idea...circulate to what and for what purpose?

 

 

 Ah! In my Top 5 things for Fort Worth Infrastructure.

[John T Roberts]

The TRWD may revive the old Leonard's/Tandy Center M&O Subway and take a trolley line to Panther Island.  NBC 5 reports:

 

https://www.nbcdfw.c...-502406101.html

[renamerusk]

This makes so much sense, its ridiculous!

 

Trinity Metro should work with TRWD, Majestic Realty(FWSY) to do 2.9 miles of light rail connecting Downtown to the FWSY.  The headway is virtually clear from point to point. Post #36.

 

It would give TM a chance to redeem itself after it screwed up locating the North Side/Stockyards Area Station along Decatur Avenue @ NE28th Street.

[Jeriat]

The TRWD may revive the old Leonard's/Tandy Center M&O Subway and take a trolley line to Panther Island.  NBC 5 reports:

 

https://www.nbcdfw.c...-502406101.html

 

It's been rumored here a while back, so I'm just glad it's finally making some actual news. 

[renamerusk]

 

The TRWD may revive the old Leonard's/Tandy Center M&O Subway and take a trolley line to Panther Island.  NBC 5 reports:

 

https://www.nbcdfw.c...-502406101.html

 

It's been rumored here a while back, so I'm just glad it's finally making some actual news. ..

 

   I have no actual proof, but sometimes what is stated here seems to find its way around.

[AndyN]

The plan that I am familiar with does not involve the tunnel remnant. It would basically run from the ballpark parking lot, up Paddock viaduct and then a loop around the courthouse(s). It solves the problem of the viaduct not being handicap accessible and makes the jury parking connection.

 

This is not a positive report. It is slamming TRV and TRWD for more wasteful spending. Seems like Channel 5 is doing a hit piece per day on the Panther Island project. And why the heck did they go to see the streetcar in Little Rock? The McKinney Avenue Transit Authority's M-Line is much heavier utilized and just a day trip away. No expensive hotel stays and restaurant bills.

[Jeriat]

It solves the problem of the viaduct not being handicap accessible and makes the jury parking connection.

 

 

I know this isn't your main point, but the fact that there's STILL no real pedestrian access from those lots to downtown on that 100 year old bridge is ridiculous. 

[renamerusk]

The plan that I am familiar with does not involve the tunnel remnant. It would basically run from the ballpark parking lot, up Paddock viaduct and then a loop around the courthouse(s).....This is not a positive report. It is slamming TRV and TRWD for more wasteful spending....

 

In lieu of spending money to construct a rail up Paddock Viaduct; not counting the disruption to do so, it can be argued that not using the M&O Tunnel would be wasteful spending by underutilizing an existing resource (tunnel)

 

I would think that rehabilitating the existing rails/tunnel infrastructure is less of an expense than laying new rails ,installing power lines, and erecting traffic support equipment to accomplish the same goal.

[JBB]

That largely depends on what was done to cover the tunnel exit and how disruptive reconstructing that exit will be to the adjacent TCC buildings. Looking at Historic Aerials, the exit is not directly under a building, but it is very close. Reopening the tunnel may prove to be cost prohibitive compared to constructing a new line.

[AndyN]

The viaduct was built for streetcars. I'll wait for a cost analysis before saying not using the Tunnel would be wasteful spending. Oh, dang. I forgot. TRV doesn't do cost analysis.

 

Also, the tunnel is very short. The poles on the original cars were only 3 feet long. I'm not sure what the wire height was, but definitely too low to have the same height wire running through Panther Island. You'd have to have some fancy current collector that could work at 10' in the tunnerl and the preferred 18' wire height where cars and trucks would comingle.

[renamerusk]

That largely depends on what was done to cover the tunnel exit and how disruptive reconstructing that exit will be to the adjacent TCC buildings. Looking at Historic Aerials, the exit is not directly under a building, but it is very close. Reopening the tunnel may prove to be cost prohibitive compared to constructing a new line.

 

 What do you believe would be the cost of constructing a new line. Could be comparable to the cost per mile for Tarrant Express Rail?  If that is the case, the tunnel with existing material in place may be cost effective.  An analysis is called for so that we know the better option.

[JBB]

I agree. I don't think anyone knows the true cost at this point. One other point I'll extend off of yours, it's highly likely the existing material in the tunnel is going to have to be replaced after more than 2 decades (or at least that long by the time something like this comes together) of sitting dormant. So the cost per mile of construction is going to extend into the 1/3 of a mile of the tunnel.

[renamerusk]

August 30, 2002  (18 years/ 4 months) since last run.

 

http://www.subchat.c....asp?Id=1346568

[JBB]

It will have sat dormant for well over 2 decades by the time this happens, if it happens.

[renamerusk]

A reopened underground would require new equipment, rail and power lines within a 1963 tunnel; a grade level rail would require new equipment, rail and power lines on a 1914 bridge - both structures might need additional reinforcement and refitting.

 

One key difference is that the underground will not become entangled with motorists while the grade level rail will be.  Marvin and Obadiah (M&O)  understood the disadvantages of grade level traffic that they were having with their shoppers' busses and took the unprecedented action to construct an underground for its shoppers to be able to move in and out of the area hassle free of traffic.

 

Another difference is that the tunnel extends into the commercial sector of Downtown, a grade level circular would loop the courthouse and then exit Downtown' and would be less ineffective to the significant core of Downtown. For both practical and sentimental reasons, the reopening of the M&O Underground is an exciting step towards connecting both the northern and the western sectors to Downtown. And lots of fun.