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Streetcars: An Interesting Observation


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#1 djold1

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 10:18 AM

The link below presents some reasons that streetcars are NOT a good deal for most cities.  While I don't agree with everything in this article, I think that some points are made that are worth discussion, particularly if the reply comments are fact based.

 

I think it's also very important to keep in mind the large differences between Light Rail (Dart) and local streetcar operation (Like the Dallas-Oak Cliff plan) in terms of economic development potential and in perception of acceptance.

 

I'll be interested in the responses (if any)..

 

Streetcar


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#2 McHand

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:22 AM

You know one street that just begs for a streetcar? Hemphill. Because there is a high population of individuals on foot who utilize our woefully inadequate bus system, out of economic need, not because mass transit is a cool novelty for them. The article cites danger to cyclists by streetcar, but Southside cyclists have the privilege of riding through beautiful vintage neighborhoods parallel to Hemphill.

The article is highly in favor of busses. Fine. But The T has done nothing but tow the line and provide merely adequate (or less than) service to "those people" while failing to appeal to choice riders. We need something better - for choice and dependent riders alike - to truly serve the residents who are already here, to say nothing of attracting future residents. I don't know if that means improvements to The T, or a new mode of transport, but something needs to change, or The Near South's revival will slowly decline, as those with means grow weary of urban novelty, without real urban transport, and egress to the suburbs, while those without cars are left to themselves with broken sidewalks and an oppressively out of date bus system.


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#3 Brian Luenser

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 10:15 AM

The link below presents some reasons that streetcars are NOT a good deal for most cities.  While I don't agree with everything in this article, I think that some points are made that are worth discussion, particularly if the reply comments are fact based.

 

I think it's also very important to keep in mind the large differences between Light Rail (Dart) and local streetcar operation (Like the Dallas-Oak Cliff plan) in terms of economic development potential and in perception of acceptance.

 

I'll be interested in the responses (if any)..

 

Streetcar

Excellent article.  No to the past, yes to the future.  We need light rail. Pronto.   Start with a line to a huge park and ride near Alliance Airport or the Racetrack. 


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#4 RD Milhollin

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:03 PM

 

Excellent article.  No to the past, yes to the future.  We need light rail. Pronto.   Start with a line to a huge park and ride near Alliance Airport or the Racetrack. 

 

 

 

Sounds more like commuter (heavy) rail. Perhaps the park-and-ride lot needs to be in central Fort Worth since the new jobs seem to be all up in the Alliance area...



#5 Russ Graham

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 02:19 PM


Excellent article.  No to the past, yes to the future.  We need light rail. Pronto.   Start with a line to a huge park and ride near Alliance Airport or the Racetrack. 

 

 

It seems to me that any of the arguments presented against the streetcar in that article (not flexible, headways limited to no more than 20 / hour, unable to pass other streetcars, tracks difficult to navigate on a bicycle) would apply just as well to light rail as they do to streetcars.   So I don't understand how you read the article as supporting a thesis that light rail would be preferable to streetcars.



#6 djold1

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 02:41 PM

Mandy.. Good comments..  You're kind of laying it on the table...

Are you saying that there should be a bus system on Hemphill for less-than-"choice" riders and a streetcar line in the same space for all others?  If that's what you're saying, how would you regulate that?  Higher fares for the streetcars? 

 

Or if you prefer "better" bus service to attract "choice" riders what could be done to improve the bus so that it might be acceptable? 

 

Assume a bus and a streetcar looked and sounded exactly the same inside and out with the exception that the streetcar was limited to tracks and had a trolley pole for an overhead wire.  Also assume that they used the same stops and ran over the same route at the same speed. Each vehicle would be required to accept any passengers as long as they had the proper fare. Would a "choice" Fort Worth rider ever select a bus?

 

Is this really about the perceived differences by riders between buses and streetcars or is it something else altogether? 


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#7 Electricron

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 10:22 PM

The link below presents some reasons that streetcars are NOT a good deal for most cities.

 

I'll be interested in the responses (if any)..

 

Streetcar

The author of that report, Randal O'Toole, is a "libertarian", against all government regulations and government programs. He doesn't even support local bus agencies. He only prefers buses over trains - mainly because he favors building more highway lanes. But he's against dedicated transit lanes.

 

Of course it costs more to build train lines than bus systems if you aren't building dedicated bus lanes and bus stop stations. But as soon as you start building dedicated bus lanes and stations for true BRT, bus lines costs as much as rail lines. 

 

There is a difference between transit and rapid transit. To have rapid transit, you need dedicated lanes. Few will ride between Plano and Dallas if it takes the regular bus 2 hours to do so picking up new riders every mile or two along the way vs the one hour the light rail train takes on its dedicated right of way.  You get what you pay for...

 

Streetcars are different from light rail trains in many ways. They're shorter, smaller, and usually run in shared street lanes with other traffic. How rapid they are depends upon how frequent it stops, and how much of its right of way is exclusive. The more exclusive it is, the more expensive it is to build.

 

TODs don't start rising near train stations all by themselves once the train arrives. Usually cities encourage growth near train stations with a variety of programs or incentives. The main point I wish to point out is  that is true for all new developments. Few developments are started in the middle of nowhere without streets, utilities, and zoning subsidized and designated by cities.



#8 Binx

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:00 AM

Electricon is too kind.  O'Toole is a nut and everything in that article is just rehash of arguments he has been making for years.  To reiterate he hates light rail.  And don't you love it when libertarians are in favor of more highways and minimum parking requirements? 



#9 Jeriat

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 09:27 AM

 

The link below presents some reasons that streetcars are NOT a good deal for most cities.  While I don't agree with everything in this article, I think that some points are made that are worth discussion, particularly if the reply comments are fact based.

 

I think it's also very important to keep in mind the large differences between Light Rail (Dart) and local streetcar operation (Like the Dallas-Oak Cliff plan) in terms of economic development potential and in perception of acceptance.

 

I'll be interested in the responses (if any)..

 

Streetcar

Excellent article.  No to the past, yes to the future.  We need light rail. Pronto.   Start with a line to a huge park and ride near Alliance Airport or the Racetrack. 

 

 

If we're going with LRT, it would be best to go as far as:

- (North) Mecham to Downtown 

- (South) Seminary to Downtown

- (East) Eastchace to Downtown

- (West) Ridgemar Mall to Downtown  

 

You know, far, but not too far from the core of the city. Anything outside of 820 is best used for Commuter Rail.


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#10 djold1

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 01:30 PM

FWIW, Dart's light rail is based on much longer runs than the 5 mile radius lines that Jeriat suggests. Getting private, off-street right of way to those places, which is what makes LRT work, would be almost impossible anyway.

 

Anyway, the linked article was about streetcars....   

 

In spite of the author's alleged political views and suggested mental limitations, he gives us a concise list of reasons against streetcar operations. If you've read them, it's obvious that they are not all beneath consideration. They may be repeats of what he has said before, but just because they have been stated before doesn't mean that they should be ignored.  

 

I've been watching  and listening carefully to both sides of the "modern" streetcar movement in Fort Worth for a number of years, while trying to maintain an independent, non-political overview of the issue. There are several of his reasons to which I have yet  to hear a solid rebuttal

 

So far in this thread, everyone but Mandy has skated around the specific issues...

 

Both sides of this issue in this forum and other venues made many silly, ignorant, non-factual statements to support their point of view inn the past. Even in the public meetings. I have been surprised at the lack of real substance from either side. There is no lack of solid facts, if anyone wants to use them, but this doesn't seem popular...

 

The Fort Worth streetcar issue is going to arise again soon...

 

Will there be a solid pro & con discussion or should I just put on a waltz and let the schmaltzy skating begin again? 


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#11 Russ Graham

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:59 PM

.... he gives us a concise list of reasons against streetcar operations. If you've read them, it's obvious that they are not all beneath consideration.
 

 

Maybe you could point out which reasons are not obviously beneath consideration?   I did read the article...

 

1) Streetcars are not as flexible as buses - of course not, they run on rails.  This is also part of what makes them better at attracting development than buses, because the transit agency is then commited to that route.

 

2) Streetcars can't pass one another - so what?  Buses don't do this even though they could.

 

3) Streetcar rails are "dangerous" for bikers - not a problem on a well-designed road;

 

4) Some streetcars are not as energy efficient as SUV's on a per-passenger basis - I find it very hard to believe that this is the case for any modern streetcar; I suspect this somewhere between a "lie, a damn lie, or a statistic".

 

5) Streetcars operating in American cities cost more per passenger miles in operating costs than buses - again, since no source was listed for this information, we're just supposed to accept this as "fact".  I suppose I could go spend a couple of hours of my life looking this up (or you could - google "National Transit Database" and all the data is out there....).  Maybe I'll look that up, if you promise to change your mind and support streetcars next time they are on the ballot, if I show you that modern streetcars cost less to operate per seat per mile for a comparable route than buses do...

 

What did I miss?  Mr. Cato Institute did not list any sources for any of his "facts", so they are really just "allegations". 



#12 Binx

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:20 PM

FWIW, Dart's light rail is based on much longer runs than the 5 mile radius lines that Jeriat suggests. Getting private, off-street right of way to those places, which is what makes LRT work, would be almost impossible anyway.

 

Anyway, the linked article was about streetcars....   

 

In spite of the author's alleged political views and suggested mental limitations, he gives us a concise list of reasons against streetcar operations. If you've read them, it's obvious that they are not all beneath consideration. They may be repeats of what he has said before, but just because they have been stated before doesn't mean that they should be ignored.  

 

I've been watching  and listening carefully to both sides of the "modern" streetcar movement in Fort Worth for a number of years, while trying to maintain an independent, non-political overview of the issue. There are several of his reasons to which I have yet  to hear a solid rebuttal

 

So far in this thread, everyone but Mandy has skated around the specific issues...

 

Both sides of this issue in this forum and other venues made many silly, ignorant, non-factual statements to support their point of view inn the past. Even in the public meetings. I have been surprised at the lack of real substance from either side. There is no lack of solid facts, if anyone wants to use them, but this doesn't seem popular...

 

The Fort Worth streetcar issue is going to arise again soon...

 

Will there be a solid pro & con discussion or should I just put on a waltz and let the schmaltzy skating begin again? 

 

An extensive pro and con discussion occurred prior to the city counsel vote in 2010.  I'm sure many of those old back and forths are on this site's old threads about the streetcar.  And there is a mountain of stuff online addressing the claims of O'Toole and his crowd.

 

And speaking only for myself, I have no appetite for a fact based discussion on this topic after what occurred in 2010.  The lesson I learned form that experience is that you don't get anything done in this town unless certain entrenched interests are on board.



#13 Volare

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 04:20 PM

 

The Fort Worth streetcar issue is going to arise again soon...

 

Given that the political forces in this town haven't changed much at all since the previous debacle, why do you think that?



#14 djold1

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 04:31 PM

Volare..  The FW political situation has changed some and the streetcar movement is still active and perhaps is growing a little in other cities. There is too much potential in terms of federal and state money participation to ignore.  But basically is is till just a feeling I have.... For what it's worth...  

 

Sometimes it's better to discuss these things when the heat is not on.....


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#15 Volare

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 04:41 PM

I think after what our local politicians did with the TIGER grant money it will be a cold day in July before any Federal money even glances our way when it comes to streetcars. In fact, I would say the debacle has likely reduced our future opportunties for DOT grants regardless of mode. When you come off that amateur folks are just going to move on to the next city...



#16 djold1

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 04:52 PM

" The lesson I learned from that experience is that you don't get anything done in this town unless certain entrenched interests are on board."

 

While this may be true, historically this a a standard response of the losing side in any power play in Fort Worth or any other city.  The obvious answer is to give the "entrenched interests" some reason to join in or to engineer their disentrenchment if the cause has enough merit.

 

Personally, I saw a lot of what I thought was poor planning by the city people with not enough foundation work and superficial public meetings that were lead by cheerleaders and "consultants" with vested interests in the their own benefit.  There were probably many other reasons in addition to the fallback "entrenched interests" excuse which was certainly part of it..


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#17 djold1

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:55 PM

"Maybe you could point out which reasons are not obviously beneath consideration?"  

 

As a conversation starter I have enclosed my personal comments and question in italics between questions. They are worth just exactly what you paid to read them... 

 

1) Streetcars are not as flexible as buses - of course not, they run on rails. 

Hard to argue with this, but I don't know that it is too important..

 

This is also part of what makes them better at attracting development than buses, because the transit agency is then committed to that route.

Streetcar proponents also make crazy statements.  There is nothing at all to suggest that streetcar rails force commitments like this.  There may be an illogical elitist preference by "choice" riders for streetcars but a bad rail route would be as much of a failure as a bus route.

 

For what it's worth:  The last FW streetcar plan ran its major routes (downtown, 7th Street, Medical District) to already well developed and thriving areas that would not have benefited much from streetcars as a development tool, if in fact they actually could do that at all. 

 

2) Streetcars can't pass one another - so what?  Buses don't do this even though they could.

Probably not a factor.  However, since the "modern" streetcars run along at curbside, a catastrophic back-up is conceivable if a streetcar was disabled in a morning or evening rush hour period on the busiest streets if any appreciable ridership ever developed. Of course buses could then be called to show up to haul away those stranded.. .

 

Historically in Fort Worth and other cities, the major routes were double track in the center of the street and had periodic crossover switches partially for this reason.  The modern day and very successful New Orleans streetcar system which has been steadily expanding in the last few years still uses a lot of center double-track and operation in the center medians.   

 

3) Streetcar rails are "dangerous" for bikers - not a problem on a well-designed road;

To clarify, the link specifies bicycles.  Maybe someone could explain this better.  But if both the streetcar rails and the bike paths are more or less at curbside then  isn't there the potential for skinny bike tires to get involved with the rail grooves and cause problems?  Or are we going to narrow the streets even more with bike lanes away from the curb outside the rail lines?

 

Again,  part of the FW revolt against streetcars in the middle 1930's were complaints about pedestrians including women in heels trying to negotiate the rails.  But by that time the hysteria to dump streetcars was at a pitch that the proponents felt like they could use anything even slightly negative as ammunition. 

 

4) Some streetcars are not as energy efficient as SUV's on a per-passenger basis..

Apples vs Oranges of course.  However, I do wonder about the relative efficiency and environmental effect if you compare electric streetcars and FW buses.  The "T" has been running its buses on Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) for a long time. This is the same natural gas fuel that more and more power plants in Texas are using. If the FW streetcar system bought any significant amount of power that was generated by coal, then there might be some environmental considerations that would excite ardent conservationists.  Personally, I don't think it's a factor.. 

 

5) Streetcars operating in American cities cost more per passenger miles in operating costs than buses..

If you count in amortizing the enormous cost per mile of streetcar line construction, then I don't think there is any doubt that this is true. It would probably be bad public accounting not to do this.

 

Both bus and streetcar systems are publicly owned and highly subsidized as are almost most all kinds of transit in these days, I'm not sure whether the added taxpayer burden, either direct ore indirect, would make much difference to those that want a system.  I realize that FW streetcar proponents claim that the costs would be born by those who directly benefit from them, but realistically things don't work that way.

 

There were several more interesting points in the link that I would like to list further down the line...


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#18 Russ Graham

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:48 PM

DJ, I do admire your efforts to spark a "fact-based" discussion on this topic... however as several others have pointed out, it's unlikely this will be an issue again any time soon.  If Ft Worth turned down 25 million dollars to start a system, it's unlikely we're going to get a system going with purely local funds.  And it's unlikely we'll get another shot at a federal grant any time soon, with our senators making themselves as unpopular as possible. 

 

To me, the bottom line is that Ft Worth has a public transit system that can only be described as "poor".  If we want to be a first-class city, (whatever that means to you), as discussed in another active thread; it will take more than a better slogan.  It will take investment in infrastructure, including public transit, and continuous sidewalks.  I don't mind arguing about whether hypothetical streetcars would be a better use of money that would imaginary light rail, or proposed commuter rail.   But hanging over that conversation is the history that no matter what the actual pros and cons are, there is a cabal of downtown interests that will prevent any plan that does not directly line their pockets.  



#19 renamerusk

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 02:34 PM

..... as several others have pointed out, it's unlikely this will be an issue again any time soon..... If Ft Worth turned down 25 million dollars to start a system, it's unlikely we're going to get a system going with purely local funds.  And it's unlikely we'll get another shot at a federal grant any time soon, with our senators making themselves as unpopular as possible.

 

....hanging over that conversation is the history that no matter what the actual pros and cons are, there is a cabal of downtown interests that will prevent any plan that does not directly line their pockets.  

 

Ditto!

 



#20 Binx

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:26 PM

" The lesson I learned from that experience is that you don't get anything done in this town unless certain entrenched interests are on board."

 

While this may be true, historically this a a standard response of the losing side in any power play in Fort Worth or any other city.  The obvious answer is to give the "entrenched interests" some reason to join in or to engineer their disentrenchment if the cause has enough merit.

 

Personally, I saw a lot of what I thought was poor planning by the city people with not enough foundation work and superficial public meetings that were lead by cheerleaders and "consultants" with vested interests in the their own benefit.  There were probably many other reasons in addition to the fallback "entrenched interests" excuse which was certainly part of it..

 

You are correct in detecting some sour grapes.  But for goodness sakes, in 2010 they voted to stop the study.  Not whether or not to implement the project, just whether to keeping studying it.  For a lot of people, including myself, that was a pretty clear indication that facts and foundation work were not the issue.  And even worse, my understanding is that the reason they wanted to stop the study beofre getting any results was because the analysis would have come out strongly in favor of streetcars.  So the cabal that Russ mentions had to smother the baby in the crib.  The only way a streetcar project ever gets momentum again is if the downtown interests are somehow convinced the streetcar won't take business away from downtown and to West 7th, Near Southside, and the Stockyards.



#21 Russ Graham

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 08:06 AM


5) Streetcars operating in American cities cost more per passenger miles in operating costs than buses..

If you count in amortizing the enormous cost per mile of streetcar line construction, then I don't think there is any doubt that this is true. It would probably be bad public accounting not to do this.

 

A nitpick here: the question is operating costs, not capital costs such as installing the rail, buying the trains, etc.   Obviously buses are cheaper than rail in "up front" costs; the question is whether that's made up for in longer life spans of rail cars vs buses, fewer operators needed, no need to buy new tires, cheaper maintenance on electric motors vs internal combustion, lower fuel costs, etc.   Amortized construction costs are not operating costs, they are still capital costs.



#22 djold1

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 06:58 PM

You're not really nitpicking, just paying attention:

 

"operating costs, not capital costs such as installing the rail, buying the trains, etc. "

 

That's why I said: "If you count in amortizing the enormous cost per mile of streetcar line construction, "

 

However, some of the examples you give of economies are probably not relevant, but not worth any detailed consideration at this point...


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#23 djold1

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 08:03 PM

Cabal Babble...

 

There's no doubt that there was and is a strong downtown establishment in Fort Worth.  What city large or small doesn't have this?  All of this is intertwined into the elected leadership of the city government as well as into the governmental structure itself, both locally and even statewide.  Depending on the particular issue, this establishment can be good or bad depending on whose side you are on. And if you are on the wrong side and the defeat is abrupt. the other side tends to be pictured as sinister and foreboding and malevolent. And in some cases that may actually be true.

 

Unless the streetcar proponents and the city planners and even the consultants were very naive, they knew this power group existed from the earliest days.  Just like similar establishments certainly existed in Portland and Charlotte, which were the two cities that were the most twittered about and used as examples during the planning and public meetings. So why wasn't this potential roadblock identified, analysed and attempts made to get direct and constant liaison so that any potential problems could be identified and dealt with from the beginning? As I watched the process go along, even as an outsider I kept hearing the mutterings about the powers-that-be, but there didn't seem to be any tangible information as to what the attitude of the king-makers was and specifically what their concerns were.

Then in 2010 the decision was made that stopped everything.  Immediately, the blame was laid to the nameless-but-omnipotent overseers in the tall buildings in the CBD. And maybe it was their doing to a larger or smaller degree. However, nothing specific was telegraphed down from the heights or if it was, it was never passed to us commoners.  Did the streetcar guys have no contact at all with this important group that was absolutely necessary to get on board if a plan was to work?  

 

Or was it just possible that that the establishment saw that this particular streetcar plan really wasn't a plan but an attempt by some sophomores to just get a trendy streetcar? Even if the projected routes were goofy and didn't really have much potential for economic development of the precious urban villages so adored by the city planners.  

 

Certainly improved transit for those that needed it wasn't in the picture. Thoroughly modern, low-emissions buses that unfortunately did not look "swoopy", already crisscrossed almost every route. By the time of the final decision, the streetcar route plans had been gerrymandered beyond belief.  

 

"The only way a streetcar project ever gets momentum again is if the downtown interests are somehow convinced the streetcar won't take business away from downtown and to West 7th, Near Southside, and the Stockyards."

 

If the establishment was really shortsighted enough to think that the protection of the CBD and especially the Sundance Square/Convention Center complex was the only tourist and visitor game in Fort Worth, then I think that those other outlying places would have been strangled before birth or forced to shut down.  That is, assuming that they really had as much power as they were presumed to have if they really deep-sixed the streetcar plan by themselves, as alleged. In reality, a good streetcar plan might do wonders for bringing new people into the downtown area, if it were properly planned and executed.

 

 While it's certainly possible that a cabal was involved, I think that it's most likely also combination of poor planning, poor timing and poor management that ultimately caused the shutdown..

 

As I have said in this forum and elsewhere abut a dozen times over the years, I feel that there is definitely a place for streetcars in Fort Worth. But it needs to be done right, to serve a real purpose and executed with original thought....


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#24 renamerusk

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 09:14 PM

" The lesson I learned from that experience is that you don't get anything done in this town unless certain entrenched interests are on board."

 

  The obvious answer is to give the "entrenched interests" some reason to join in or to engineer their disentrenchment if the cause has enough merit.

 

Give in to blackmail; and that is your solution?



#25 Electricron

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 10:40 PM

I think too many of us forget some facts pertinent to the Fort Worth streetcar plan.

First fact, NCTCOG asked for ~$50 Million for both the Dallas and Fort Worth plans.

Second fact, Fort Worth and Dallas both got ~$25 Million.

Third fact, Dallas also had money available from DART that had set aside for the Love Field People Mover that could be tapped.

Fourth fact, Fort Worth didn't have a lot of money set aside for transit purposes. 

 

Dallas was able to make do with half the requested federal funding, Fort Worth couldn't. Fort Worth needed all the federal funding, after only getting half, their streetcar project died a swift death. An interesting "what if" is if Fort Worth had received all the federal money asked would they had built it? I think they might had. But alas, they didn't.



#26 McHand

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:26 PM

Mandy.. Good comments..  You're kind of laying it on the table...

Are you saying that there should be a bus system on Hemphill for less-than-"choice" riders and a streetcar line in the same space for all others?  If that's what you're saying, how would you regulate that?  Higher fares for the streetcars? 

 

Or if you prefer "better" bus service to attract "choice" riders what could be done to improve the bus so that it might be acceptable? 

 

Assume a bus and a streetcar looked and sounded exactly the same inside and out with the exception that the streetcar was limited to tracks and had a trolley pole for an overhead wire.  Also assume that they used the same stops and ran over the same route at the same speed. Each vehicle would be required to accept any passengers as long as they had the proper fare. Would a "choice" Fort Worth rider ever select a bus?

 

Is this really about the perceived differences by riders between buses and streetcars or is it something else altogether?

 

Ideally, a transit system would attract all riders. I would never advocate for a streetcar for the Haves and busses for the Have Nots. 

I don't have a problem with busses per se. I think the mass transit problem in this city is multi-faceted, and includes needed sidewalk improvements and comfortable bus stops. Most riders have to walk multiple blocks to a stop, and if the sidewalks are too narrow, broken or otherwise inadequate, choice riders will choose their cars. If the stop is simply a sign on a busy intersection on a narrow sidewalk, choice riders are going to choose their cars. If the rider is a block away and sees the bus zoom by yhe stop, that rider will have to wait at the stop for upwards of 30 minutes in God knows what kind of weather.

All of these factors are turn offs to choice riders. 

Pre-kids, when we only had one car, I often took the bus to my job on South Hulen. I experienced every one of the scenarios described above. After our first child was born, I continued to use the bus, pushing a stroller. We would leave the house at 9:30 for an 11:00 playdate near West 7th, and not return home until 4 pm.

I once took the bus down Berry to Walgreens, son in stroller, and on the way back I waited at Whataburger because there was (I thought) a bus bench in front of it. I saw the bus coming up the street and went outside to catch it. I stood up and waved at the driver, he opened the door and said "That's not a stop!" and zoomed off. Hot, tired and angry,  I proceeded to push my 25 month old son to the next stop, which was past the railroad tracks at Berry and Cleburne.

That was the last time I took mass transit in Fort Worth.

Now that I have a choice, I choose my car. I would like to believe that a bus trip downtown would be practical or at least fun for me and the kids, but I know from past experience that it will be an all day hassle.

So, would a streetcar be an improvement? Maybe.

Whatever our needs, The T is not fulfilling them.


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#27 johnfwd

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:13 AM

The most fun I had as a kid was taking the Ridglea shuttle to downtown, then riding the old Tandy subway train to the department stores.  Then back home on the bus.  We didn’t have a car at the time.  Kids today might actually enjoy visiting downtown as an adventure if we had an innovative mass transit system.



#28 djold1

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:40 AM

Public transit in Texas and many other states is primarily operated under subsidy for those who have no other choice.  Therefore, these systems operate in areas and along corridors that will provide riders and go the most direct routes to the where the riders need to be. This gives the impression to those who are not constant riders that operations like the "T" are not serving all of Fort Worth as they should and that the system as a whole is useless.  

 

But it may be that the opposite is true. Can you imagine the cost of the subsidy if the "T" ran a system that provided stops in every part of Fort Worth within about two walking blocks of every home or business and ran at 10-15 minute intervals? And in addition provided service to almost every possible business location, no matter how far flung from the city center? 

 

This kind of comprehensive service would be great for those that are occasionally without an automobile or that just want to take an excursion.  But the buses would be running empty most of the time and the fares per mile run would be zilch.  

 

I live in far NW Fort Worth and couldn't take a bus if I wanted to.  But I personally feel  that the service provided by the "T" for those who have no other choice is one of the things that cities must do.  And I have noticed that in the past year that the "T" has added articulated, streamlined buses on what must be their busiest routes and have also been working on "plaza's", etc. to make things easier and faster.  

 

Unlike earlier times in Fort Worth, there is no such thing as "mass" transit.  There aren't any masses to transport for one thing, since cars are the prime way to get around. 

 

Streetcars have popped up in recent years used as select or specialty transport as well sometimes being touted as tools of economic development.  However the legend and lore and sheer misunderstanding has also linked streetcars (electric vehicles that run mostly  on the street with other traffic) with Light Rail (which mostly runs on protected right of way between stops).

 

Light Rail (which is a different name for the interurban systems of the first half of the 1900's) connects out-lying areas to a city center and which can have definite effect in economic development of the remote stops on the way into the city. Since successful LR lines tend to carry a considerable number of riders during their hours of operation, they can properly be called "mass transit".  DART is an example.  Interestingly enough, true believers in dense urban living must hate LR because if the system aids economic development then it must be also be contributing to the growth of those areas. Thereby adding to the "sprawl" which is so distasteful to those who wish for all of us to live like ants in a single heap. 

 

Streetcars in the "modern" sense (whatever that means) are kind of a made-up creature.  It is not the same as the legacy streetcar systems like Toronto, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh which still have elements of the old mass transit operation.  The new emphasis lies on somehow attracting a select or choice (mostly occasional) rider that would not deign to set foot on a bus of any kind and who needs the visual reinforcement of steel rails set in pavement to be assured that there is a destination somewhere that can be relied upon. As distasteful as it may seem, this choice streetcar rider would still have to share space with those who actually need the transport and have no other choice...  as well as the tourists who may stray on board.

 

It's important to note that no matter whether it is a bus or streetcar, the most important thing to a rider is how prompt the service is and how long the rider must stand in the Texas weather before the next chance to ride come along.  There is no way the "T" is going to schedule streetcar frequency more often than buses if the riders are not there.  Empty is empty. 

 

There are cases where modern streetcars in the US have apparently helped with the economic development of declining or blighted areas that were some distance from the city center.  All of the recent streetcar planning in Fort Worth has leaned heavily on the idea of aiding the development or redevelopment of  areas such as these as a large part of the rational for a system. These places are called "urban villages".

 

There certainly are several depressed areas that could benefit from economic development and would perhaps find a streetcar useful even though bus service has been available there for years.  South Main & Hemphill come to mind, among others. However, it turns out that for a number of reasons, mostly  political and/or self serving, that the first urban villages to receive service would be thriving. already blooming locations like West 7th and the Cultural District. Which kind of defeats the idea of economic reclamation from the beginning. 


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#29 Dylan

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 11:36 PM

Here's a list on Wikipedia that has pros and cons of streetcars (towards the bottom of the page).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram

 

Here is a simplified list I have made that's partially from the above list and partially what's in my mind from my limited knowledge of streetcars:

 

PROS:

- People who have a choice between public transportation or their personal cars will typically be more willing to get out of their cars for streetcars than busses (thus more riders on streetcars).

- Since streetcars tend to be used primarily for connecting major destinations with each other, and they are on a fixed route, tourists who are unfamiliar with routes in the area they are in tend to trust streetcars more to take them to their destination.

- Most streetcars can go in two directions, so it can stop an the end of a line and reverse direction without making a loop around a block (thus saving time).

- Unlike busses, streetcars can add or remove capacity (cars) based on demand.

- People in wheelchairs can simply roll right on and off modern streetcars.

 

CONS:

- If there's an obstruction along the line (like an accident or street closure), a streetcar can't move around it like a bus can. That can shut down an entire streetcar route until the obstruction is out of the way.

- Streetcars typically have less effective suspension systems. I'm not sure about modern streetcars because I have never been on one, but I have been on one of the trolleys in Galveston before Ike shut down the system, and it was very bumpy.

- As mentioned in the first article, streetcar lines are not friendly to bicycles.

- Lines will have to be replaced every few decades. $ $ $


-Dylan


#30 McHand

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 07:37 AM

Public transit in Texas and many other states is primarily operated under subsidy for those who have no other choice.  Therefore, these systems operate in areas and along corridors that will provide riders and go the most direct routes to the where the riders need to be. This gives the impression to those who are not constant riders that operations like the "T" are not serving all of Fort Worth as they should and that the system as a whole is useless.  

 

 

 

I'm glad someone has articulated what I've always felt to be true.

 

If this continues to be the purpose of our buses going forward, then Fort Worth will never be anything but a sprawling patchwork of suburbs.  I still maintain my earlier comments that those with means will choose to migrate back out of our fledgling inner city once they realize they still have to drive everywhere.  


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#31 Volare

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 07:50 AM

...  I still maintain my earlier comments that those with means will choose to migrate back out of our fledgling inner city once they realize they still have to drive everywhere.  

 

 

Could you expand upon this a bit? When you speak about "fledgling inner city" what areas does this include in your mind. Also, what exists at the "everywhere" that they can't find in their neighborhood?



#32 gdvanc

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 06:11 PM

I've been watching  and listening carefully to both sides of the "modern" streetcar movement in Fort Worth for a number of years, while trying to maintain an independent, non-political overview of the issue. There are several of his reasons to which I have yet  to hear a solid rebuttal

 

So far in this thread, everyone but Mandy has skated around the specific issues...

 

Both sides of this issue in this forum and other venues made many silly, ignorant, non-factual statements to support their point of view inn the past. Even in the public meetings. I have been surprised at the lack of real substance from either side. There is no lack of solid facts, if anyone wants to use them, but this doesn't seem popular...

 

The Fort Worth streetcar issue is going to arise again soon...

 

Will there be a solid pro & con discussion or should I just put on a waltz and let the schmaltzy skating begin again? 

 

lol. *facts* he says! Pete, you're killing me! If I've said it once, I've said it before: we don't use facts in this society. Facts are only useful if you haven't already made up your mind (or had someone you trust make it up for you). I mean, you could start with facts, recognize some assumptions where information is incomplete, and then try to use reason to come to a reasonable conclusion, but that's just too much damned work! It's much easier to find some political party or newspaper or whatever that you generally agree with and let them do all that dangerous thinking for you. And where can you even find unbiased data to begin with? When and where are people taught how to reason? No, my friend, that's just not the level of discourse in this society. Hasn't been for decades.

 

I admire your trying to bring that back and I wish you luck on your crusade! 

 

In all seriousness, though, I've personally found it difficult to find reliably objective information on this subject. All sides (I think there are probably more than two) use facts or statistics or research, but it never seems to be a complete picture. Where do they get the figures? Is the research dated? Was the research objective? Are the stats rich or selective in their reporting? An 'average' alone, for instance, can be meaningless - or completely misleading. With only the Internet, I've spent time on this and have had no luck finding enough quality information to even begin forming an opinion. I'll join the debate, though. I'm an American. It's my right to have strong opinions without worrying about supporting them with anything more than a loud voice and a look of contempt for anyone foolish enough to form an opposing opinion!



#33 Russ Graham

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:10 AM

Public transit in Texas and many other states is primarily operated under subsidy for those who have no other choice.  Therefore, these systems operate in areas and along corridors that will provide riders and go the most direct routes to the where the riders need to be. This gives the impression to those who are not constant riders that operations like the "T" are not serving all of Fort Worth as they should and that the system as a whole is useless.  

 

But it may be that the opposite is true. Can you imagine the cost of the subsidy if the "T" ran a system that provided stops in every part of Fort Worth within about two walking blocks of every home or business and ran at 10-15 minute intervals? And in addition provided service to almost every possible business location, no matter how far flung from the city center? 

 

This kind of comprehensive service would be great for those that are occasionally without an automobile or that just want to take an excursion.  But the buses would be running empty most of the time and the fares per mile run would be zilch.  

 

I live in far NW Fort Worth and couldn't take a bus if I wanted to.  But I personally feel  that the service provided by the "T" for those who have no other choice is one of the things that cities must do.  And I have noticed that in the past year that the "T" has added articulated, streamlined buses on what must be their busiest routes and have also been working on "plaza's", etc. to make things easier and faster.  

 

Unlike earlier times in Fort Worth, there is no such thing as "mass" transit.  There aren't any masses to transport for one thing, since cars are the prime way to get around. 

 

Streetcars have popped up in recent years used as select or specialty transport as well sometimes being touted as tools of economic development.  However the legend and lore and sheer misunderstanding has also linked streetcars (electric vehicles that run mostly  on the street with other traffic) with Light Rail (which mostly runs on protected right of way between stops).

 

Light Rail (which is a different name for the interurban systems of the first half of the 1900's) connects out-lying areas to a city center and which can have definite effect in economic development of the remote stops on the way into the city. Since successful LR lines tend to carry a considerable number of riders during their hours of operation, they can properly be called "mass transit".  DART is an example.  Interestingly enough, true believers in dense urban living must hate LR because if the system aids economic development then it must be also be contributing to the growth of those areas. Thereby adding to the "sprawl" which is so distasteful to those who wish for all of us to live like ants in a single heap. 

 

Streetcars in the "modern" sense (whatever that means) are kind of a made-up creature.  It is not the same as the legacy streetcar systems like Toronto, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh which still have elements of the old mass transit operation.  The new emphasis lies on somehow attracting a select or choice (mostly occasional) rider that would not deign to set foot on a bus of any kind and who needs the visual reinforcement of steel rails set in pavement to be assured that there is a destination somewhere that can be relied upon. As distasteful as it may seem, this choice streetcar rider would still have to share space with those who actually need the transport and have no other choice...  as well as the tourists who may stray on board.

 

It's important to note that no matter whether it is a bus or streetcar, the most important thing to a rider is how prompt the service is and how long the rider must stand in the Texas weather before the next chance to ride come along.  There is no way the "T" is going to schedule streetcar frequency more often than buses if the riders are not there.  Empty is empty. 

 

There are cases where modern streetcars in the US have apparently helped with the economic development of declining or blighted areas that were some distance from the city center.  All of the recent streetcar planning in Fort Worth has leaned heavily on the idea of aiding the development or redevelopment of  areas such as these as a large part of the rational for a system. These places are called "urban villages".

 

There certainly are several depressed areas that could benefit from economic development and would perhaps find a streetcar useful even though bus service has been available there for years.  South Main & Hemphill come to mind, among others. However, it turns out that for a number of reasons, mostly  political and/or self serving, that the first urban villages to receive service would be thriving. already blooming locations like West 7th and the Cultural District. Which kind of defeats the idea of economic reclamation from the beginning. 

 

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.  Would you say your opposition to streetcars is that they are focused on the "central ant heap" ; not beneficial to the outer 'burbs at all?  So all this talk about inflexibility and impracticality is sort of beside the point, right?  I mean, if proponents of the central ant theory consistently push for streetcars, and proponents of the "home home on the range" theory consistently oppose them, then we can skip all this pro- and con- business, right?

 

As Avvy pointed out; commuting by bus anywhere in FW is a terrible experience.  The are a few routes - the #1 or #2 or SPUR buses - which are "fairly" frequent, about 15-minute frequency, which would be considered "awful" in other cities; but then there are routes that you basically have to plan your day around.  So if you have a choice, you take another form of transportation.  This is what a "choice" rider is - not as in like "choice cut of meat" meaning premium or something.  Basically people with any other choice such as just walking there or getting their mom to drive them will not take the bus.  It's not the case that I or Avvy or the rest of fort worth is just too Gucci-Prada to get on a bus lest our white gloves get dirty.  It's the case that it's far too much of a drain in time to take public transit.  And there's a whole long list of consequences that come from that root cause - including the obesity epidemic and childhood-onset type 2 diabetes, including the fact that every new building must have a parking garage the same size as a complement, including the fact that most Americans that die under 40 do so in a traffic accident - etc etc. 

 

So there's a "need" not just "want" to improve the public transit systems - and as you point out it's foolish to try to put a bus in front of everybody's door in Tarrant County.  So what's to be done?  Proponents of the central ant theory tend to bring up density as the solution to this dilemma - because it's a lot easier to design a public transit system that serves a dense area well that a not-dense area.  If you concentrate on densely-built up areas you can put a bus or streetcar in front of a lot more front doors all at the same time. 

 

So there's my opinion, and let it be known that I wrote this without a look of contempt for anybody.

 

And, I'm still hoping you're going to point out some interesting tidbit from the original article to justify the title of this thread. :)

 

 

EDIT - childhood-onset diabetes is genetic and can't be pinned on cars.  Type 2 is what I was thinking of... 

 

here are some more reasons to free yourself from your car:  http://www.bikereade.../50reasons.html



#34 Volare

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:48 AM

... Thereby adding to the "sprawl" which is so distasteful to those who wish for all of us to live like ants in a single heap....

 
This derisive line really cracks me up. Brings to mind the view when I have the misfortune of following Beach Street north to it's awful terminus.
 


#35 renamerusk

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:35 AM

 

to almost every possible business location, no matter how far flung from the city center? .....I live in far NW Fort Worth...

Unlike earlier times in Fort Worth, there is no such thing as "mass" transit.  There aren't any masses to transport for one thing....the "sprawl" which is so distasteful to those who wish for all of us to live like ants in a single heap.....

 


Okay, now we're getting somewhere.  Would you say your opposition to streetcars is that they are focused on the "central ant heap" ; not beneficial to the outer 'burbs at all?  So all this talk about inflexibility and impracticality is sort of beside the point, right?  I mean, if proponents of the central ant theory consistently push for streetcars, and proponents of the "home home on the range" theory consistently oppose them, then we can skip all this pro- and con- business, right?


....Proponents of the central ant theory tend to bring up density as the solution to this dilemma - because it's a lot easier to design a public transit system that serves a dense area well that a not-dense area.  If you concentrate on densely-built up areas you can put a bus or streetcar in front of a lot more front doors all at the same time.

 

Well stated RG. Those who make the decision to live in the far flung parts of the city have and continue, unintentionally I suggest, to strain the efficiencies of city services; and while they have the perfect right to live so, it seems improper to then oppose the streetcar based upon a lack of density.  Why should Fort Worth be incorporated into Denton and Parker Counties; with future plans to incorporate into Wise County?  It is because of developers who in the past were not appropriately charged for new street, water, sewer, etc.  Now at last that policy is changed.  An additional effect of this unchained sprawled is the shifting of power from the core to the outer regions and which in itself has had a deleterious impact on mass transit efforts.

 

On the most part, this "ant heaper" will not oppose your toll roads and 10 lane highways; tolls roads are an idea long over due as they properly tax the true cost of automobiles.  The streetcar, as was proven in the past, will pay for itself in the long run, both environmentally and economically.



#36 John T Roberts

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:38 AM

For the record, Fort Worth has already annexed into Wise and Parker Counties.



#37 djold1

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:49 AM

To start at the bottom..  what's "interesting" is the skewed perception of streetcars in the O'Toole article, mixed in with a few points that have validity.  There are lots of reasons that streetcars are not the correct answer for Fort Worth, at least as planned in the past, but many of those in the article have no factual basis.

Then we skip down through the replies as forum people start responding, and in these we find as many skewed and non-factual replies against buses.  This quote from a response above in favor of streetcars is one of the worst examples of a similar group of ignorant statements:

 

"Since streetcars tend to be used primarily for connecting major destinations with each other, and they are on a fixed route, tourists who are unfamiliar with routes in the area they are in tend to trust streetcars more to take them to their destination."

 

You may have a single set of rails running from the point you board a streetcar, but the rails will go through multiple switches and the cars will turn to multiple branches on their route. Nothing about the rails where you board gives any indication of your destination except for the curb signs and the destination boards on the cars.

 

Least important is the mention of confused tourists.  The Fort Worth plan almost totally ignores tourists except for casual boarding's.

 

Transit either by streetcar or bus does depend on density. Lots of riders with common destinations.  As Russ said above, that pretty well eliminates general transit in Fort Worth except for those areas that generate enough traffic.  In terms of the old FW streetcar plan, the West 7th/Camp Bowie area and the medical district have had buses running for a long time. There has been and is transit there now for those who want it.  And I'm sure if more people wanted it, the buses would run at closer intervals and the capacity would increase. However, the streetcar plan ignored building initial routes to the southeast quadrant which for whatever reason, generates the largest number of riders on the entire system.

 

Assume that a streetcar and a bus looked exactly the same, and had the same interior arrangement (Check the new articulated buses on the Lancaster Avenue run in Fort Worth) Is it reasonable to think that if you placed both this streetcar and this bus at the same stop going to the same destination that a rider would pick one over another?

 

As I have said before many times I have nothing against streetcars.  I think they will have a place in Fort Worth at some point. However I do think that there needs to be some solid foundation for expending the huge amounts of money required and even more than that, there needs to be really solid factual indications that they are more than just the trendy dreams of village planners. There are no factual differences between buses and streetcars. Everything is perceptual so far. And that makes no difference.  

 

Show me a solid plan that has solid financial underpinnings and is not just based on some right or left coast city. One  that takes into consideration the realities of Texas weather, the realities of Texas citizens and destinations that actually make sense and I will be with the program from the beginning. 


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#38 djold1

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:16 AM

" The streetcar, as was proven in the past, will pay for itself in the long run, both environmentally and economically."

 

This would be good....

 

How far in the past?  The glory days of both streetcars and buses ended in the 1960's and in many cases decades before that. 

 

How is a significant environmental improvement to come about if both the bus and the streetcar get their energy from natural gas?

 

What's your theory of economics?   Since both buses and streetcars are highly subsidized by the city, the state and federal sources how does streetcar operation seem more economical considering the amortized costs of building the system.  Even without that where are the economies? 

 

Fort Worth made the final transition into buses in the late 1930's after a 10 year period of adding bus routes. The cost of the new buses, barns and other equipment necessary was amortized by the Northern Texas Traction Co., a private, taxpaying corporation. 


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#39 Russ Graham

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 12:00 PM


Show me a solid plan that has solid financial underpinnings and is not just based on some right or left coast city. One  that takes into consideration the realities of Texas weather, the realities of Texas citizens and destinations that actually make sense and I will be with the program from the beginning. 

 

Not meaning to be sarcastic, but if you go here:  http://fortworthtexas.gov/streetcar/

 

and click the "planning" link, you'll find all the planning you could hope for.



#40 djold1

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:18 PM

And it didn't turn out well did it? <not sarcasm> So much for planning that tried to make a preconceived plan work by any means instead of investigating what might work and keeping an open mind..  


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#41 Volare

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:25 PM

Who isn't keeping an open mind? When the foremost experts are telling you this system will work, and the economics are as good as any in the nation...

 

"I reject your reality and substitute my own."

 

I was there at the community meetings when fellow "open minded" citizens railed against a streetcar system for reasons including not being able to understand the difference between light rail and streetcars. Watched a woman scream at an expert and tell him he was wrong, that the streetcar went right in front of her sister's house in Portland and it was HORRIBLE. When you get that kind of open mindedness, well, I guess that's what you get. I also watched a city council member who was attending that meeting go up to that same woman and tell her "don't worry, we will kill this when it gets to the council." Honest to God, witnessed with my own eyes and ears.



#42 djold1

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:59 PM

Volare:  I don't doubt a word of what you say .  

 

I was at a meeting where I heard one of the consultants belch some of the garbage I have mentioned above and then try to laugh down questions about what he said. And I heard some really dumb questions and comments from the audience at the same meeting. As far as I can tell there was considerable ignorance, political maneuvering and outright dishonesty from both sides.

 

The whole thing did not pass the smell test to me and that includes the action and reaction from all sides.  

 

I have no reality in mind on this issue. I don't have a dog in the hunt. But even a person as untrained as I am can see the ineptness of the plan and its presentation and the general lack of a logical system that resulted.


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#43 McHand

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:40 PM

 

...  I still maintain my earlier comments that those with means will choose to migrate back out of our fledgling inner city once they realize they still have to drive everywhere.  

 

 

Could you expand upon this a bit? When you speak about "fledgling inner city" what areas does this include in your mind. Also, what exists at the "everywhere" that they can't find in their neighborhood?

 

 

While I was thinking of the right answer to this question, I lost my car. Ironic, huh. I am about to really find out what this urban living thing is all about.


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#44 gdvanc

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 11:55 PM

Where did you last see it, Avvy? Did you check the garage?



#45 McHand

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 09:46 PM

Where did you last see it, Avvy? Did you check the garage?

 

Tee hee! 


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#46 Austin55

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:25 AM

You guys might like this Streetfilms video on Vimeo of mass transit in Salt Lake City, which is very conservative. I think a few parallels could be compared with FW in this video. SLC has got to be one of the most beautiful cities in the country, even without the mountain backdrop. 

 

http://vimeo.com/69338793#



#47 johnfwd

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:38 AM

Thanks for the video, Austin55.  I only wish its premise was not one of political ideology--i.e. conservative vs. progressive (or liberal, if you prefer).  I believe transportation planning decisions should be based on non-political ideological factors, among them economic and technological feasibility as well as social preferences.  Of course you can't discount the fact that public officials who decide on transportation projects are influenced by political ideology--conservatives wanting to minimize the role of government as a project funder or just wanting to cut the budget versus progressives wanting a greater government role as a project funder and desiring greater spending to stimulate the economy.



#48 djold1

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:49 PM

Or of course the local political effect where entrenched ownership of whatever national  or regional political persuasion attempts to block any perceived incursion into their territory or power base.  Which several people have suggested may have been a factor in the 2010 to stop streetcar planning. 


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#49 Binx

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:17 PM

And it didn't turn out well did it? <not sarcasm> So much for planning that tried to make a preconceived plan work by any means instead of investigating what might work and keeping an open mind..  

 

I am repeating myself, but again, the original study was canceled before it was completed.  So if any party was guilty of failing to investigate or keep an open mind it was the councilmembers and the downtown interests that pulled their strings on this matter.  And frankly I'm not sure what you are getting at with you posts in this thread.  You asked for the plan and financials, and when presented with the same you seem to dismiss them without thought.  I personally disagree with folks like O'Toole, but at least I understand their arguments.  If you have a similar ideological bent, great.  But I don't think you can point to more or better information or discussion as a vaild knock on the streetcar program from 2010. 



#50 cberen1

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:18 AM

At the end of the day, people are going to disagree on pretty much everything that winds up in the political arena.  Inherently, then, good ideas will almost always have detractors, sometimes passionate and intelligent detractors so you can't assume that ideas and plans that lack consensus are going to fail (conversely history shows you shouldn't assume that consensus guarantees success).

 

I guess what I'm saying is that 1) We need to be civil about this and 2) I don't think we'll know for sure unless we try it.  All of these projects are to some degree speculative and therefore involve an element of risk.  Risk isn't always a bad thing.  We take on risk every time we have a new bond issue, grant development incentives, hire a city manager, build a school, and so on.  The question is whether or not the risk is acceptable (something on which there, again, will not be consensus).

 

This would be a fairly large bet so I think what it would have to have in this political environment is a champion.  There's enough popular support for it that it could happen without public outrage, but I think someone is going to have to step up at the beginning to take ownership of the issue and accept that they will be the scapegoat if it subsequently fails.  Today there is no such champion.  Betsy could probably throw her weight behind it if she wanted to and get ti done.  It may be telling that she has not done that yet.






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