48 replies to this topic

[John T Roberts]

The Downtown TIF Board is reviewing free parking and whether it is still necessary to lure people downtown after hours and on weekends.  The Business Press reports below:

 

http://fwbusinesspre...rking-plan.aspx

 

The Fort Worth Star-Telegram now has an article on the issue online:

http://www.star-tele...adlines-default

[hannerhan]

Interesting just how different the costs are between the various leases.  $1mm for the 300 spots in the Tower garage sounds pretty expensive compared with the City Center lease...  And while I have used CC garages countless times on nights and weekends, I have never used that Tower garage.  You'd think it would be pretty easy to have someone track the utilization and put pen to paper to determine what's worth keeping if anything.

 

For the record, I agree with Johnny.  Downtown needs to keep the perception of free parking on nights and weekends (even if they did drop a couple of garages from the TIF). 

[Big Frog II]

Take out the free parking and the downtown businesses will suffer big time.

[Doohickie]

Not if the businesses validate parking garage tickets.

[Fort Worthology]

Free parking has a lot of negative side effects people tend not to think about.  http://www.uctc.net/papers/351.pdf

 

I'd love to see it go away.

[JBB]

 

Not if the businesses validate parking garage tickets.

That's not going to make it free. The cost is going to be picked up somewhere, probably by the business and in turn the customer.

If growth continues on a positive inclination, there's going to be a time when free downtown parking is no longer going to make sense and it's time to start weening the garage owners off of the huge lease payments. If we're sitting here 10 or 20 years from now and still implying that downtown businesses can't survive without being propped up by free parking, we have bigger problems.

[youngalum]

I love to go downtown on Saturday or Sunday afternoon.  I do it b/c there is free parking and places to go.  Without the free parking, I will go to other places that don't charge for parking.  Simple as that.  I would never pay $7-$10 for the right to park in a garage on a weekend afternoon.

[McHand]

Free parking has a lot of negative side effects people tend not to think about.  http://www.uctc.net/papers/351.pdf

 

I'd love to see it go away.

 

 

That is a pretty long read for someone who's surfing the forum..

 

How 'bout some highlights next time?

 

Allow me....

 

 

ABSTRACT

Urban planners typically set minimum parking

requirements to meet the peak demand for

parking at each land use, without considering

either the price motorists pay for parking or the

cost of providing the required parking spaces.

By reducing the market price of parking,

minimum parking requirement provide

subsidies that inflate parking demand, and this

inflated demand is then wed to set minimum

parking requirements. When considered as an

impact fee, minimum parking requirement

can increase development costs by more than

10 times the impact fees for other public

purposes combined. Eliminating minimum

parking requirements would reduce the cost of

urban development° improve urban design,

reduce automobile dependency, and restrain

urban sprawl.

 

 

(Emphasis mine)

 

So it's not the free parking per se, it's the minimum requirement that is the real catalyst.

 

By the way, with a lack of transit to downtown that makes sense, this library patron especially appreciates the free parking.

[Austin55]

I don't think downtown has the critical mass of urban residents or proper transit to support  not having free parking just yet. 

[McHand]

Someone should build an offsite surface lot with subway access to downtown.

[John T Roberts]

Youngalum, I will admit I don't want to go downtown to pay for parking on the weekends in the garages.  If they start charging for the garage parking, I will park on the street because I'm pretty sure that will remain free longer than the garages will.  I certainly don't mind walking a greater distance for a free parking space on the weekends.  I also have other options, I could ride the bus, ride my bike, or walk from the house.  If I'm down there taking pictures, I that rules out going by bicycle.

[John T Roberts]

The Downtown TIF Board voted to approve short term extensions to two of the parking leases.  The Business Press explains the extensions; however, the article seems to indicate that the TIF is in its final 10 years, and after it expires, we will have to pay for parking on nights and weekends.

[Volare]

With the amount the TIF has paid other entities for the temporary "free" parking, they could have built their own parking garage and made it "free" forever.

[dangr.dave]

The garages already exist and would otherwise just sit empty after regular hours.  That should put the city in the position of power.  Anything in terms of revenue is better than nothing...as long as the revenue is equal to or greater than the cost of security and upkeep.  I personally think the city could negotiate better terms.

[John T Roberts]

Leases are expiring and the TIF would rather use their money directly for development instead of leasing the parking garages so the visitors can park free.  Here's more from the Business Press.  http://fwbusinesspre...ee-parking.aspx

[Austin55]

This article turning around my thoughts quick, they defiantly need to shrink the leases. 43 million out of 70 total? Way to much just to provide parking. Use those funds to build better connections with the residents around downtown. Time to shrink these leases, perhaps a few buildings looking for places (like the SInclair) could take them over and better use the space. 

 

I'd be ok just subsidizing the City Center South and 777 Main ones, cutting out all the rest. See what happens to business, 

[John T Roberts]

I will admit that I am frugal, and if the garages start parking at nights and weekends, I won't be parking in them.  I will park on the streets, assuming that street parking will still be free at nights and on the weekends. 

[Volare]

And if they make it all paid parking downtown?

 

Remember when it was free to park anywhere in the cultural district? Then they started the parking lot wars there. What has happened to musem attendance? (Hint- down all around)

[John T Roberts]

If they make it all paid parking downtown, then you will see a lot less downtown updates and photographs from me on this site.  I will probably ride my bicycle down there on the weekends, but I don't take my good camera with me when I'm riding. 

 

The last time I went into downtown Dallas, I had to pay for parking on a Sunday and I thought that Sunday parking was free.  It was not, and of course, I fed the meter because I had driven all that way into downtown Dallas from Fort Worth.  The rates on Sunday were the same for a weekday. 

 

I will admit that since the economy downturn in 2008, I have become "cheap".  One of my cycling buddies calls me the "cheapest person he knows".  Here's the reason.  I took two pay cuts (I am back to full pay), and I have not had a raise since before then.  My cycling buddy retired in 2011 with yearly income more than I make in a year.

[Not Sure]

Sorry, but my visits will certainly be fewer if I must pay to park. Free parking is a big part of what made downtown a destination after the workday and on the weekend. I certainly preferred the free garages in Fort Worth over the seedy dark lots in Dallas with "attendants" who looked like they'd be rifling through your belongings minutes after you parked. I have more money now than years ago when I made the switch from hanging out in Dallas to hanging out closer to home in Fort Worth, but I'd rather spend it having a good time than parking.

[Fort Worthology]

If downtown can't survive without free parking propping it up, it's a lot less healthy than we think it is.  Perhaps we ought to be thinking less about subsidizing the storage of private automobiles downtown and more about making it easier to get around without them.

 

Downtown Dallas is on the upswing, without free parking.

[Jeriat]

There are cities with better downtown areas than ours (I love our city, but get real, we still have plenty of work to do in downtown) and they seem to get by just fine WITHOUT free parking. So there really shouldn't be an excuse, right? 

 

If it's really worth being there then there shouldn't be any complaining about paying a few bucks to park. Texas de Brazil is seen as a top tier restaurant, which is why it ain't cheap.

[Now in Denton]

All I know as a kid and as a teenager. Monnings was busy. The Tandy Center was always busy year round.  I saw it lived it .And it had free parking.  In contrast. Would free parking help Victory in Dallas when it first opened ? No not at all. Most stores even had free rent for a year ! Bad development and overprices stores did. Come on who is going to  a Mavs game. Buy $200 jeans. And open a bottle of wine ?

 

It boils down to you better have something for people to come too. And be worth the trip. And be on the ready for American's ever changing shopping and entertainment habits. As I said on another post. Fort Worth needs to add some roof top public places. Not just one or two. And not just a Reunion Tower Type building. But a Seattle needle in Fort Worth be a great start. Especially if TRV is a reality.

[eastfwther]

I admit that I haven't paid much attention to this because I really don't go downtown much anymore. But if the parking to private garages and parking lots is subsidized, then it needs to go.  I heard that the Basses very own parking garages get tax dollars for offering free parking.  Is this true?  If it is, that's ridiculous.  That's like Hulen mall getting tax money to offer free parking to people shopping in their mall.  And if the parking garage owners are so pro-downtown, can't they just offer their parking free with no subsidies?  As someone else pointed out, other downtowns are making it without free parking..downtown Dallas is doing a complete turnaround ...so why can't downtown Fort Worth survive without free parking? (Well the parking was never really FREE. At least not for Fort Worth taxpayers)

[Russ Graham]

Well the parking was never really FREE. At least not for Fort Worth taxpayers

 

Sums up the whole thread.

[RD Milhollin]

Perhaps the public needs to be weaned off of the "free parking" mindset. Why not offer One Dollar parking for a couple of years and then raise it to Two. This would help the TIF money go further into other projects they would like to take on, and would help the downtown visitors adjust gradually to the idea of parking fees. A dramatic change from "free" to "market" overnight would no doubt have a shock effect on spending downtown; this sort of gradual change would be much more palatable to the price-sensitive market segment. If any garages were to be dropped from the subsidy program, or receive a lesser subsidy amount, it should be those owned by the Bass interests, as they are in effect "double-dipping" since they own the properties that benefit most.

 

The money removed from the parking subsidy program should be directed toward alternate transportation options such as a starter downtown streetcar system...

[Volare]

It's all coming full circle...

 

http://bikefriendlyo...arking-garages/

[John T Roberts]

The next meeting has been canceled.

 

http://fwbusinesspre...gotiations.aspx

[RD Milhollin]

New arrangements with more favorable (to the DTFWTIF) have been reached with the owners of downtown parking garages, so free parking will continue for the near future. 

 

http://www.star-tele...-free.html?rh=1

 

I wonder if Bass Hall patrons are as sensitive to price changes in downtown parking as other groups, like shoppers, pub crawlers, diners, casual strollers, forum photographers, or families with kids who like to splash in water fountains (oops, scratch that last group). I suppose that subsidizing parking behind the performance hall is a form of subsidy for the performing arts, which DOES contribute to the overall health and vitality of the area. Many of those attendees are also most likely within the prime target demographic for some of the high-end restaurants and shops Sundance Inc. works to attract. Instead of free parking, parking with amenities (valet, close-by, extra-wide spaces, covered/climate controlled walkways, etc.) might be even more appealing than free to this group. 

[John T Roberts]

I'm glad that it will continue in the near future, but I'm quite confident that eventually all of the garages will charge for evenings and weekends.  I'm just hoping that the street parking will remain free after hours.

[John T Roberts]

The free parking will continue at the Sundance Square Garages and the one for 777 Main until 2025, according to the Business Press.  However, I did notice one thing in the article.  Currently, the parking is free after 5:00 PM, the article states that the parking is free from 6:00 PM until 3:00 AM.  It looks as if the hours are being slightly reduced to capture some new parking fees.  Below is a link to the article:

 

http://fwbusinesspre...wn-garages.aspx

[mmiller2002]

What happens if you go park there at 4pm, then leave at 11pm?

[John T Roberts]

Lately, on weekdays, they have been manning the parking booths until after I have left.  Therefore, I would assume that under the current parking regulations, someone would go to the booth and pay for the parking between 4 PM and 5 PM.  Then, the rest would be at no charge.

[JBB]

At some point in time, I can remember parking in the City Center garage before 5:00 and leaving several hours later and not paying at all because the booth was not manned. I know on my last trip downtown for dinner, I parked in the Chase garage and it was manned well after 10:00.

[John T Roberts]

I have exited the garages at various times on the weekdays, myself.  A couple of those times was between 10 and 11, and there was someone in the booth.  I also parked at both the Chase (3rd Street Garage) and the City Center Garage 2. 

 

I also have a clarification on my earlier statement.  The hours on the parking leases have not changed. They always started at 6:00 PM, but some property owners have been generous enough to allow the free parking after 5 instead of 6. 

[gdvanc]

Do these garages and lots typically accept plastic or are they cash only? I've never minded the expense of parking, but don't always have folding money in my pocket. I assume they do but haven't had to pay to park in a garage in a while.

 

It would be nice if they could somehow integrate with TxTag.

[Fort Worthology]

Street parking accepts cards now, so I'd be surprised if the garages don't.

[McHand]

They do accept cards when someone is working the booth.  

[John T Roberts]

I moved the three posts regarding West 7th parking over to the West 7th Development thread.

[John T Roberts]

The parking garage owner for The Tower is seeking a lease extension for their free parking.  The Fort Worth Star-Telegram has an article on the lease extension and what could be signaling an end to free parking in Downtown.  The story is by Sandra Baker.

 

http://www.star-tele...e118570973.html

[BlueMound]

Does the article contain a numerical error ?

'The lease paid about $950,000 annually ....'

Should that be just $95,000 not $950,000 ?

[John T Roberts]

The Tower Garage still in dispute with TIF over the parking.  Below is a link to the Fort Worth Business article:

 

http://www.fortworth...946046e1e7.html

[renamerusk]

Because our elected officials like to talk about transportation alternatives..... to park at, we close down the closest best way to get there!.... and tell me this has anything at all to do with horses. This is about revenue.

 

 

The Tower Garage still in dispute with TIF over the parking....

 

 One can be cynical and see these two controversies as yet another play by those exercising pull.  Streetcars v. downtown parking TIF and bicycles v. Cultural District Garage. 

[gdvanc]

Oh, renamerusk, I fought cynicism for so long. End the end, though, I've found its proper use makes me much better at predicting the actions of those with power and influence.

[BlueMound]

Free parking should not give anyone a competitive edge
Op-ed
http://www.star-tele...e130678899.html

[Austin55]

FW Weekly with another story on this.

 

https://www.fwweekly...ng-subsi-dies/#

[RD Milhollin]

The S-T's Bud Kennedy weighs in on the "Free Parking" question with "Fort Worth's Romance with Free Parking and Why It's Headed for a Messy Breakup"

 

http://www.star-telegram.com/living/article172092357.html 

 

He covers the old Leonard's Subway, Sundance Square and public subsidization, Will Rogers area Western Heritage Garage, West 7th / Crockett Row, The Dash, The "4-block rule", parking meters, Stockyards Disneyfication, city zoning requirements, driverless cars and possible consequences for parking

 

... and even hovercrafts and sacred cows!

 

This is necessarily a generalized review and overview, and does not attempt to go into any serious social or economic policy evaluations of the issue; and I am pretty sure all of the aspects he covers have been covered to a greater extent here on the Forum, but it might help the uninitiated citizen to better understand what the reasons might be when the can't find a free space or have to pay for a close one. As regards the title; I read the article twice and really can't see where he covered why a "messy breakup" is on the way... it seems to be an ongoing long-term relationship in Sundance Square!

[Austin55]

Wondering... If the TIF can subsidize parking, could it not subsidize bus or train passes too? How might that work?

 

I imagine taking the TRE over, stopping at Reatta, getting my train ticket stamped and then off I go.

[txbornviking]

Does anyone know utilization rates for the 3811 free night and weekend parking spots.

Would be interesting to know on an "average Tuesday" how many are used vs a Friday night, a weekend day, a weekend evening, a special event day etc...

 

I'm sure there are a couple of times each year they're all in use, but even heading downtown for BIG events like July 4, Main Street Arts, etc I've never not found a free spot available.