Cultural District Roundabout
#1
Posted 15 August 2004 - 02:26 PM
Oh yeah, and who was this Anne Marion person who was proposing the thing in the first place?
#2
Posted 15 August 2004 - 02:44 PM
#3
Posted 15 August 2004 - 03:11 PM
On an unrelated note, has anyone seen or heard of the new roundabout in Southlake? It's at the intersection of Carroll Ave. and Continental on the eastern edge of Timmeron Country Club. It was the 4-way stop from hell before and they're using the roundabout to improve traffic flow. It is very small and very low speed. I've only driven through it at lower traffic times, so I haven't seen it at full use. Very interesting that they would use this as opposed to a traffic signal.
#4
Posted 15 August 2004 - 10:16 PM
#5
Posted 15 August 2004 - 11:21 PM
It follows a ruling last month by the city's Historic and Cultural Landmarks Commission that the theater could not be torn down for 180 days, until Oct. 14.
The bulk of the suggestions Thursday were tied to whether a roundabout, a low-speed version of a traffic circle, would be built at the six-point intersection near the theater.
Last year, local philanthropist Anne W. Marion offered up to $25 million to build a roundabout to serve as a new gateway into the Cultural District. Marion spearheaded establishment of the FPA Foundation to oversee the project.
After months of studies, however, Marion cited tough economic times and withdrew her planned donation - less than a day before the City Council was to pick a design.
City officials have continued to study the idea, however, with the hope of getting public or private funding to build it.
And here's another link to the design:
http://www.fortworth.../cp20010806.asp
#6
Posted 16 August 2004 - 04:22 PM
I really hope someone can put forth some funding for this. Perhaps the Basses are getting bored with Sundance?
#7
Posted 16 August 2004 - 07:34 PM
The plans I have seen of the once-proposed intersection at 6-Points seems too small to be effective, if safe.
Pup
#8
Posted 16 August 2004 - 07:44 PM
#9
Posted 16 August 2004 - 07:49 PM
#10
Posted 16 August 2004 - 07:55 PM
#11
Posted 16 August 2004 - 08:06 PM
I was joking on the last ones guys. I think either carter or rogers would be great for this monument.
#12
Posted 17 August 2004 - 12:09 AM
However, besides the roundabouts described in London and Paris above, Mexico City's Avenida de la Reforma also offers axamples of beautiful roundabouts.
#13
Posted 17 August 2004 - 03:00 PM
#14
Posted 17 August 2004 - 04:02 PM
Regardless, there is potential for a couple of impressive, though probably not "monumental", streets in Fort Worth. 7th Street was once and probably could be again a principal thoroughfare, the circle/fountain/statue/gateway to the Museums would be nice but not essentail. I am just as stoked about the potential for Lancaster downtown, I hope the city planning does not drop the ball on this one and allow a Wall-Mart to be build on the site of the T&P Warehouse.
Pup
#15
Posted 17 August 2004 - 04:14 PM
I know! If those morons let that happen again, I will raise hell to them personally. I don't care if they wouldn't trust the judgement of a teenager, but I'm pretty sure it would be a nasty blow to their egos to have a kid lecture the people SUPPOSED TO BE IN CHARGE about what true urbanity is...I am just as stoked about the potential for Lancaster downtow, I hope the city planning does not drop the ball on this one and allow a Wall-Mart to be build on the site of the T&P Warehouse.
And thanks normanfd for mentioning Paseo de la Reforma. I was trying to think what that street with the monument was called because that's something I would also like to see happen at this intersection. As to it being too small, I think (at least in my opinion) it needs to be small. If it was controlled by lights anyways, it wouldn't need to be bigger than the one that's already there, 4-6 lanes should be enough. It would seem more urban if it was smaller, and that's what I think should be one of the main reasons behind building it, along with easing traffic. The monument in the center would seem more important if the road around it had a smaller diameter, too.
#16 ghughes
Posted 19 August 2004 - 08:15 PM
The first rule should be that those in the circle have the right-of-way over those entering. Period, end of story. Anything else causes too much confusion (Weatherford and Bluebonnet both being examples of letting traffic engineers into the room at the wrong time).
Second rule: signs before you enter should show the sequence of exits. That's how it's done in France and it really helps.
For Example (using local highways)
You just read the sign in advance, count the number of exits, and then when in the circle just know to get off at the 2nd one or whatever.
#17
Posted 21 August 2004 - 04:11 PM
#18
Posted 21 August 2004 - 05:14 PM
not to be confused with the Benbrook Traffic Circle, which is often mistakenly called the Weatherford Traffic Circle.
#19
Posted 21 August 2004 - 05:19 PM
#20
Posted 21 August 2004 - 10:25 PM
That's exactly how they are in Argentina, too. But, they're only used at important intersections or intersections of highways. The streets that intersect here, while being major thoroughfares, aren't really THAT crowded or carry THAT much volume to warrant anything like the Benbrook circle. If there were lights so that only one street's traffic is on the circle at a time, it wouldn't need to be big at all.For Example (using local highways)
You just read the sign in advance, count the number of exits, and then when in the circle just know to get off at the 2nd one or whatever.
I think the main focus should be on making the intersection dynamic and attractive, while at the same time adding a (not very big) step in traffic congestion control. We have a tremendous opportunity here, and I hope the city (should they someday choose to persue the roundabout idea) doesn't screw this urban space up like they've done or let happen on so many other occasions.
#21
Posted 21 August 2004 - 10:51 PM
You probably haven't spent much time driving through there at rush hour, during lunch time, or especially during the Stock Show. I've waited through multiple lights at that intersection on more than one occasion.The streets that intersect here, while being major thoroughfares, aren't really THAT crowded or carry THAT much volume to warrant anything like the Benbrook circle.
#22
Posted 21 August 2004 - 11:25 PM
Well, I have been a few times during rush hour, but it really didn't seem that bad. Still, a big traffic circle is not the answer for the intersection. If it's going to be controlled by lights, the circle can be as big or as small as you want it, diameter wise. In this case, given the supposedly urban setting, a small(er) circle would probably work the best. Maybe 6 lanes?You probably haven't spent much time driving through there at rush hour, during lunch time, or especially during the Stock Show. I've waited through multiple lights at that intersection on more than one occasion.The streets that intersect here, while being major thoroughfares, aren't really THAT crowded or carry THAT much volume to warrant anything like the Benbrook circle.
#23
Posted 22 August 2004 - 09:42 AM
At one time it was widely acknowledged that that was the longest wait for traffic signals of any intersection in town, hands down. Has that changed in the past few years? Is there another intersection that takes longer to get through if you arrive at the end of a yellow light?
Back in the late 70's or early 80's there was a billboard sign at the slice of land between Bailey and University facing oncoming traffic going north on University. Since it was set back from the intersection it could be seen from most of the positions where traffic had to stop. It was print only, no graphic that I remember, and the text read something like this:
"Well, here you are at the longest intersection in town. You are going to be here several minutes so you might as well read this" ...
This was of course before cell phones, PDA's, notebook computers, and portable DVD players, but I have seen men using electric shavers and women putting on their makeup there, plenty of time you see.
Grrrrr
Pup
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#24
Posted 31 August 2004 - 07:25 AM
If you're one of those that would rather take longer using a shortcut than just sitting there, there are some alternate routes on the north side of 7th, but as University gets busier it gets harder and harder to get across.
Another long wait is nearby at the Camp Bowie-Montgomery-Lancaster intersection.
#25
Posted 31 August 2004 - 03:49 PM
Nothing has changed except the tornado wiped out a few of the billboards near teh internsection. In fact, there are still bent steel beams from one of the old billboards between the intersection and the self-wash car wash off of Univ or Bailey. I think it would be cool to use those beams in a prominant way to remind us of May 26th, 2000. That tornado really had an impact on the neighborhood. More specifically, it had a $20,000 impact on my house!At one time it was widely acknowledged that that was the longest wait for traffic signals of any intersection in town, hands down. Has that changed in the past few years?
I like the idea of a roundabout replacing that intersection b/c it's only a few blocks from me and I do anything to avoid it! Jonny - not to belittle your age - but once you actually start driving yourself around town, you will learn to hate this intersection like the rest of us. It is ridiculous how long it takes to get through the cycle! And, I believe, it is still considered the longest traffic signal wait in the city. And, congestion at that intersection is already horrible. But with downtown booming and the cultural district's appeal it will only get worse!
If we're voting on who to put in the center of the fountain I'd like to nominate another of FW's finest. John Denver. (JUST KIDDING) Can you imagine having John Denver welcoming everyone to the cultural district? Maybe the fountain could play "Thank God I'm a Country Boy" too! I always thought it was funny that one of his biggest hits was a song about being from the country when he went to Arlington Heights and grew up on the West Side of FW. I guess we could also nominate Bill Paxton... Hey, maybe it could be a statue of Bill Paxton with the Tornado of 2000. How's that for irony!
#26
Posted 31 August 2004 - 04:12 PM
No, actually the light at 820 (eastbound) and Hulen is the longest. I think it was something like in the top 6 for waits at signals in the entire metroplex.And, I believe, it is still considered the longest traffic signal wait in the city.At one time it was widely acknowledged that that was the longest wait for traffic signals of any intersection in town, hands down. Has that changed in the past few years?
Lol, it's ok, but I should be in driver's ed by now, darn it! My parents are being cheap, and I only have about 2 more months for me to take the test and get my permit in time to get my license by my birthday...it's so frustrating!Jonny - not to belittle your age - but once you actually start driving yourself around town, you will learn to hate this intersection like the rest of us.
#27
Posted 31 August 2004 - 04:51 PM
I remember waiting for my birthday so I could get my license... and my bday ended up falling on good friday and the dvm was closed so I had to wait. It sucked! Anyway, you should get your permit so you can start enjoying the joys of FW's growing traffic problems like the rest of us. And, don't be like me... I crashed my car 2 weeks after I got my license - I think it's some sort of record. And, to make matters worse, I TKO'd my dad's business partner's brick mailbox in Ridglea CC Estates in the process of doing $3800 damage to my car (not to mention the $1500 mailbox)! And, to make it even worse - dad's partner's daughter was one of the prettiest girls at my school and she saw the entire thing (I was being a bad teen driver and speeding in the rain). But, she was really great and took up for me and told my parents it wasn't my fault. ;-) To my credit, everyone does crash there - the mailman, ups, etc. In fact the mail truck crashed in their yard twice in one day! Anyway - be safe when you get your license!!!!! I was dumb!
#28
Posted 31 August 2004 - 04:57 PM
But back on topic (somewhat), I remember a news report about Bryant Irvin and Hulen, and how they had the most traffic volume of any arterials in Fort Worth or the metroplex or something, but that could have changed.
#29
Posted 12 September 2004 - 02:51 PM
Here's one being built in Houston that caught me eye, it's what I would like to see the 6 points intersection become, only on a larger scale and controlled by lights:
#30
Posted 26 September 2004 - 01:36 PM
Hopefully, they will do some landscaping along the intersection and rid us of that extremely tall sign.
#31
Posted 26 September 2004 - 01:41 PM
#32
Posted 21 December 2005 - 06:01 PM
On an unrelated note, has anyone seen or heard of the new roundabout in Southlake? It's at the intersection of Carroll Ave. and Continental on the eastern edge of Timmeron Country Club. It was the 4-way stop from hell before and they're using the roundabout to improve traffic flow. It is very small and very low speed. I've only driven through it at lower traffic times, so I haven't seen it at full use. Very interesting that they would use this as opposed to a traffic signal.
Sorry to bring such an old thread back to life, but.... The intersection of Carroll and Continental met signal warrants but the City did not want to get into the signal business. Currently every signal in Southlake is on a state route and maintained by TxDOT. A signal at the old intersection would have cost between 85-110k. The roundabout cost $121k, but has lower maintenance costs over the long term, is a far safer intersection, and has lower off peak delay than a signal, so they gave it a shot.
#33
Posted 22 December 2005 - 03:15 PM
#34
Posted 22 December 2005 - 04:41 PM
#35
Posted 05 May 2015 - 01:04 PM
Ten years later, we're still talking about this!
#36
#37
Posted 05 May 2015 - 01:58 PM
Here's the recent ST article Jeriat spoke about
http://www.star-tele...le12348470.html
There it is.
Had no idea how long people were on this.
#38
Posted 05 May 2015 - 03:13 PM
It's been a long time, and I want to thank JBB for correcting my faulty memory. I thought it was earlier than 2004, but that was the date on this generation of the forum, so I couldn't remember if I had copied some of the older posts over here.
#39
Posted 05 May 2015 - 11:22 PM
It's been a long time, and I want to thank JBB for correcting my faulty memory. I thought it was earlier than 2004.....
JTR, I too thought it was earlier than 2004 recalling news of Fort Worth Philanthropist Ann Marion proposing to construct a roundabout at the confluence of 7th/Camp Bowie/Bailey/University and the subsequent decision not to go forward. So it was as your memory suggests first, the Event of 9-11; and second, the immediate downturn in the economy resulting from that tragedy atrocity.
(footnotes--post #4/5)
I remember how disappointing the news of the decision not to go forward was to hear and holding out hope that the project might be constructed in the future. Seems like TXDOT was not too interested in a roundabout and gave us what we have today.
http://www.bizjourna...4.html?page=all
http://en.wikipedia....Windfohr_Marion
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#40
Posted 06 May 2015 - 06:47 AM
Here's a document from 2001 with the roundabout proposal: http://fortworthtexa...utions/2752.pdf
If I understand the schematic correctly, it looks like the streets would have to be significantly realigned to approach the intersection from the correct angle. That would have been more feasible 14 years ago, but today it would mean tearing down new buildings.
#41
Posted 06 May 2015 - 07:03 AM
Yes, the streets were realigned. You are also correct in your statement that all of the new buildings would have to be demolished. From the looks of this diagram and reality, I guess we will have to live with a signalized intersection.
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#43
Posted 06 May 2015 - 08:30 AM
I bet this could be adjusted to the existing conditions, with a smaller diameter. Also I think 7th street west of that intersection would work better as an eastbound one-way street, due to all the valet activity and people crossing the road.
I'm sure there'll be no complaints out of anybody on this board if the University leg north of the intersection happens to require demolition of the strip mall...
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#44
Posted 06 May 2015 - 10:24 AM
The 2001 proposal that would require demolition is not the same one as shown in the renderings posted by Austin. That is a new design proposal from the Blue Zones program and, presumably, would not require demolishing any new buildings.
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Kara B.
#45
Posted 06 May 2015 - 01:25 PM
Thanks for the clarification. I can see by the rendering the new buildings are not demolished. Sometimes, I'm not thinking.
#46
Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:08 PM
#47
Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:28 PM
Fine. Why has the city sat on its hands for the past 14 years without taking action? And now that we're viewing a picturesque art rendering of a grass-covered traffic circle that might result in a smooth and quicker flow of traffic in this bustling cultural district, should we expect quicker action by the city? Don't hold your breath waiting.
#48
Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:58 PM
Judging by the pic, I think you may have to reduce a lane (or two) for each on coming street to still make it happen.
I believe that was also part of the Blue Zones recommendation, yes.
--
Kara B.
#49
Posted 06 May 2015 - 03:03 PM
I think this is just a "what if" rendering to get a concept of what it would look like, not an actual proposal for a budget item or anything. The next step is to incorporate these design principles into the Master Thoroughfare plan. From a practical political point of view the city would be foolish to move forward with this roundabout until there are one or two active roundabouts functioning in Fort Worth. Once the roundabouts at Rosedale and Ayers and the one on Henderson are up and running, the city can point to those as evidence that these things work "right here in Cowtown". Until that happens there will be all kinds of uproar for any newfangled traffic thingey. (*cough* Forest Park Road Diet *cough*)
I think there's lots of room for "removal" of lanes as you come up to the intersection - think of northbound University where it splits from three lanes into three left turn lanes, two (or three?) through lanes, and one right turn lane. In a roundabout scenario this would be replaced by two "through or left" lanes, and one right turn lane. Similarly on westbound 7th street, the mess of left turn lanes (one for University, one and a half for Camp Bowie) and a right turn lane (for Bailey, or 7th, or University) would be replaced by just three incoming lanes, one of which would be a right turn lane bypassing the roundabout entirely.
EDIT - aaand this is not what the picture shows... so never mind. It could be done though.
#50
Posted 11 October 2015 - 04:04 PM
Having lived through all the discussions on the roundabout.There are no existing examples of placing the diameter circle available with over 50,000 vehicles going through it a day. Europe has traffic circles and not modern roundabouts. The city engaged a world famous authority to review the counter directed entry points and found the design flawed.
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