448 replies to this topic

[Electricron]

I personally think... the (Dallas) Fort Worth Airport should be the North End terminus.  Let all the other rail + Taxi + Car traffic merge at the DFW Airport.

If I were investing in Texas Central, I wouldn't want to spend the money to enter downtown Dallas and spend more money to also leave downtown Dallas just to get to DFW Airport. Golly, Texas Central and the FRA have already balked at spending the money to get to downtown Houston, imagine whatshock they'll experience if someone tacked on additional costs getting out of downtown Houston, to go to Hobby, Bush International, or even Galveston?

 

How many HSR passengers boarding the train in Houston will want to go to DFW Airport, when Houston already has two airports? How many HSR passengers boarding in downtown Dallas will want to go to DFW Airport when they can ride the Orange Line with much, much, much cheaper fares? Therefore, I believe it is safe to suggest about the only HSR passengers that might want to go to DFW Airport will board the HSR train in College Station, which by the way will be located a good 15 to 20 miles away from that city. 

 

What transit advantage will a DFW HSR station have over downtown Dallas, if any? One will be able to walk a few blocks from the downtown HSR station to reach both TRE trains towards the mid cities and downtown Fort Worth. One will be able to walk a few blocks from the downtown HSR station to reach both Red and Blue lines towards Oak Cliff, Richardson, Garland, and Plano, or connect to Green and Orange lines to Carrolton, Farmers Branch, Irving, Pleasant Grove, and DFW Airport.  

From a DFW Airport HSR station located on its south side, all you'll be able to catch from it, or be within walking distance, is the DFW Airport People Mover! Then it would be just as long a walk from the People Mover Station to either the DART station outside Terminal A, or the TexRail station outside Terminal B.  

 

I fail to see any transit connections advantages at DFW Airport for Texas Central's customers. 

[renamerusk]

Though it does not bear repeating, I will anyway -

 

I bailed out on the TCR a long, long time ago because of its shiftiness.

 

At this point, the only thing that TCR seems to be able to do is to flip flop in the most embarrassing ways.

[Electricron]

Though it does not bear repeating, I will anyway -

 

I bailed out on the TCR a long, long time ago because of its shiftiness.

 

At this point, the only thing that TCR seems to be able to do is to flip flop in the most embarrassing ways.

And what specific issues have Texas Central flip-flopped on? All along they have been adamant about building a HSR line between Dallas and Houston. Exactly what they are still proposing. 

[renamerusk]

 

Though it does not bear repeating, I will anyway -

At this point, the only thing that TCR seems to be able to do is to flip flop in the most embarrassing ways.

 

And what specific issues have Texas Central flip-flopped on? All along they have been adamant about building a HSR line between Dallas and Houston. Exactly what they are still proposing. 

 

 

"You are kidding, right?"   That is an easy one - for a start, go to post #1 in this thread for the first of many examples.

 

Amnesia is on the ascendancy these days - war, immigration, banking deregulation, HSR, etc.

[Electricron]

 

"You are kidding, right?"   That is an easy one - for a start, go to post #1 in this thread for the first of many examples.

 

Amnesia is on the ascendancy these days - war, immigration, banking deregulation, HSR, etc.

Go back and read post 7 in this thread posted within hours, if not days, of the first post.

Channel 11 reports downtown Dallas while Channel 5 reports downtown Fort Worth as the DFW terminus for Texas Central. I suggest Channel 5 myopic FW viewpoint influenced their initial report, and that this example isn't their first example of twisting facts.

 

It never fails whenever some company suggests moving their headquarters to regional offices to "DFW" that the news media based in Dallas reports Dallas and the news media based in Fort Worth reports Fort Worth. But that's not what the company stated. 

[renamerusk]

At this point, the only thing that TCR seems to be able to do is to flip flop in the most embarrassing ways.

 

 

And what specific issues have Texas Central flip-flopped on? All along they have been adamant about building a HSR line between Dallas and Houston. Exactly what they are still proposing.

 

 

Go back and read post 7 in this thread posted within hours, if not days, of the first post....Channel 11 reports downtown Dallas while Channel 5 reports downtown Fort Worth as the DFW terminus for Texas Central. I suggest Channel 5 myopic FW viewpoint influenced their initial report, and that this example isn't their first example of twisting facts.....It never fails whenever some company suggests moving their headquarters to regional offices to "DFW" that the news media based in Dallas reports Dallas and the news media based in Fort Worth reports Fort Worth. But that's not what the company stated.

 

Took you up on your challenge to read post #7 again.  Frankly, there does not appear to me to be anything substantive in the post, such as a quote or a news story to refute the clear actions taken in Fort Worth in post #1.  Only a forum blogger making their own observation.

 

The position that TCR took then and is taking now is textbook "flip flop" or in marketing parlance, "bait and switch".  TCR launched their campaign at the ITC; in Downtown Fort Worth; and to the Tarrant Regional Transportation Counsel where TCR then unveiled its plans to connect Fort Worth to Houston. Now the claims is "that all along [adamantly]"  that it never intended such plans.  So, I ask, what was Fort Worth to believe at that time and to believe now?

 

I will also tell you that TCR has not limited their flip flops only to Tarrant County, but elsewhere too. I don't intend to cite those cases at this time as to keep this as brief as necessary, but if need be, they can be cited. 

 

The rant about local media bias is truer than you alleged.  If Channel 5 is bias, then what are Channel 4, 8 and 11. So while it is somewhat the case that the local channel display bias, bias has little to do with the behavior of TCR and its ongoing shell gaming. If anything, it makes it harder for TCR to hoodwink the tribal camps within North Texas as neither city has a complete monopoly on the opinion expressed in local media.

 

Returning to the issue that TCR flip flops! - where is a credible rebuttal?

[Electricron]

The Channel 5 news story is dated 8 May 2012.

 

A Houston Chronicle blog reported on 11 May 2012;

"Advocates for high-speed rail in Texas say the state’s first bullet train could connect Houston with Dallas-Fort Worth as early as 2020, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram reported on May 9, 2012"

http://blog.chron.com/newswatch/2012/05/houston-dallas-could-get-10-billion-bullet-train/

So who was correct, Channel 5 or the Houston Chronicle?

 

The Star Telegram reported on May 9, 2012:

""We're in the process of doing the route studies, the environmental work, pooling the engineering work to determine the best route between Houston and Dallas," said Eckels, president of Texas Central Railway, a Japanese-U.S. partnership previously known as Lone Star High-Speed Rail Llc."

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/traffic/your-commute/article3831320.html

Read more here: http://www.star-tele...l#storylink=cpy

 

So who was correct, Channel 5 or the Star Telegram?

 

​The Houston Business Journal reported on May 11, 2012; 

"Imagine boarding a high-speed electric train in Dallas-Fort Worth, rocketing south across the Texas prairie at 205 miles per hour and arriving in Houston in less than 90 minutes."

http://www.bizjourna...ts-private.html

 

So who was correct, Channel 5 or the Houston Business Journal?

 

Dallas Business Journal reported on May 11, 2012,

"I magine boarding a high-speed electric train in Dallas-Fort Worth, rocketing south across the Texas prairie at 205 miles per hour and arriving in Houston in less than 90 minutes."

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/print-edition/2012/05/11/high-speed-rail-dallas-to-houston-in.html

 

So who was correct, Channel 5 or the Dallas Business Journal?

 

Fort Worth Star Telegram reported on July 18, 2012;

"A Japanese company, JR Central Railway, has opened Texas offices and plans to submit a proposal to the state to build a high-speed-rail line from D/FW to Houston, with private-sector dollars and no government funding. That group's precise plan, including a proposed route, hasn't been made public, but details could be released as soon as next year, officials said.

JR Central Railway is seeking investors to chip in roughly $10 billion to possibly connect Houston and Dallas by 2020."

Read more here: http://www.star-tele...tml#storylink=c

http://www.star-tele...cle3832024.html

 

That's within two months of the initial press release kick-off. The Star Telegram in the same article of the same date also reported;

"The RTC last week agreed to pay an additional $640,000 to continue its high-speed rail planning during the next two years. That's in addition to $640,000 approved months ago." 

And; "But the Regional Transportation Council has already agreed on one important point: the area needs multiple high-speed rail stations -- and not just a single stop in downtown Dallas."

 

Again I ask who was more correct, Channel 5 or the Star Telegram?

 

The only new release in May 2012 that mentioned Fort Worth specifically that I can find was Channel 5. All other news stories, including some from Fort Worth, all from Dallas, and all from Houston reported a terminus in Dallas-Fort Worth. 

Important Point: It's been the RTC and its political leaders all along pushing HSR towards DFW Airport and Fort Worth, not the private investors from Texas Central!

Additionally: Dallas-Fort Worth does not mean two train stations in Dallas and Fort Worth.

 

Is that enough proof? It should be!

[Dylan]

To be fair, the NBC 5 news story is from May 2nd, not May 8th as you're telling us. Also, TCR's meeting was at the Fort Worth ITC.

 

In regards to the Houston station, TCR first said somewhere north of DT Houston, then they changed their mind and said DT Houston, then they changed their mind again and said north of DT Houston.

[renamerusk]

To be fair, the NBC 5 news story is from May 2nd, not May 8th as you're telling us. Also, TCR's meeting was at the Fort Worth ITC.

 

In regards to the Houston station, TCR first said somewhere north of DT Houston, then they changed their mind and said DT Houston, then they changed their mind again and said north of DT Houston.

 

Thanks, I am preparing a rebuttal...watch this space.

[RD Milhollin]

Meanwhile, the Texas Central executive suite is starting to get nameplates on the doors:

 

http://www.fortworth...cb03a6a42c.html

 

"Construction of the Dallas-to-Houston rail line is scheduled to begin in 2017."

[renamerusk]

Meanwhile, the Texas Central executive suite is starting to get nameplates on the doors:

 

"Construction of the Dallas-to-Houston rail line is scheduled to begin in 2017."

 

And today, NBCDFW5 reports that TCR is getting additional funds through investments - Total Investment to date: $115m.  Three years since launching its project (2012) and two years from starting construction (2017) and with 60% of time gone by since launch:  $115m of $12,000m = .0095833% of funds required now committed.

 

Expecting to hear any time, within the final 24 months, the huge, over the top final commitment of $11.885b or a mere 99.99042% of the needed funds to come before 2017.

 

NBCDFW5 also is reporting that Tim Keith, CEO of the privately-funded Texas Central Railways believes that future funding can come from more investors, Japan Federal Government and U.S. Department of Transportation.

 

In a previous post [303], I alleged that TCR flip flops. Is this hyperbole or is there reason to come to this conclusion based upon only two of the their many misrepresentations?

 

So these seem to be the lines then and now - 

 

1. [5/02/12]  When TCR mistook Downtown Fort Worth for Downtown Dallas to publicly launch their plan, did TCR actually mean HSR to Dallas, and HSR almost to Fort Worth?

2. [12/01/15] When TCR stated that their project will be funded through private investors, did TCR actually that know that it is looking for some future funding through USDOT?

 

Are these flip flops?.... Suppose it is what is meant by the term flip flop.  But, does TCR have a problem with telling the truth? Yes, they do if lying by omission applies, and I believe it does.

 

......a lie by omission occurs when an important fact is left out in order to foster a misconception (Dallas and not Fort Worth). Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions (Privately funded; not USDOT).

 

TCR, the flip flops fit in my opinion. 

 

To reiterate a decision that I came to a long time ago when I realized that TCR was not a Fort Worth project, I then became merely being a spectator of this project. With the omission of Fort Worth, at least for me, I feel that there is nothing directly in the TCR project for me other then pointing out the misrepresentations that TCR knowingly or unknowingly carried out to the residents of Tarrant County. TCR faces such headwinds that following it is on the par of watching a ship in a storm and knowing that it will eventually sink. My concern is that its eventual downfall will have a knock on effect upon the more comprehensive statewide effort.

 

HSR will be developed in Texas, but the network shall included Fort Worth, and yes Dallas plus Austin, San Antonio and Houston; and it will come about through a publicly authorized and supported agency - TXDOT. - It will cost well above $10-12 billion dollars TCR project, but  It will be worth every penny.

[Dylan]

Might as well save billions of dollars and not build HSR since it won't connect both downtowns. That would've been its big advantage over flying.

 

Either build it correctly the first time or don't build it at all.

[renamerusk]

Either build it correctly the first time or don't build it at all. (Downtown(s) to Downtown(s)

 

 I agree.

 

 I also believe that the OKDOT-TXDOT-MEX HSR project will connect all of its destinations at downtown.  The will have the public funds, the authority, and the sovereign investment of Mexico, U.S. and China or European investors.

[Electricron]

And today, NBCDFW5 reports that TCR is getting additional funds through investments - Total Investment to date: $115m.  Three years since launching its project (2012) and two years from starting construction (2017) and with 60% of time gone by since launch:  $115m of $12,000m = .0095833% of funds required now committed.

 

NBCDFW5 also is reporting that Tim Keith, CEO of the privately-funded Texas Central Railways believes that future funding can come from more investors, Japan Federal Government and U.S. Department of Transportation.

 

In a previous post [303], I alleged that TCR flip flops. Is this hyperbole or is there reason to come to this conclusion based upon only two of the their many misrepresentations?

 

So these seem to be the lines then and now - 

 

1. [5/02/12]  When TCR mistook Downtown Fort Worth for Downtown Dallas to publicly launch their plan, did TCR actually mean HSR to Dallas, and HSR almost to Fort Worth?

2. [12/01/15] When TCR stated that their project will be funded through private investors, did TCR actually that know that it is looking for some future funding through USDOT?

 

Are these flip flops?.... Suppose it is what is meant by the term flip flop.  But, does TCR have a problem with telling the truth? Yes, they do if lying by omission applies, and I believe it does.

 

......a lie by omission occurs when an important fact is left out in order to foster a misconception (Dallas and not Fort Worth). Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions (Privately funded; not USDOT).

 

TCR, the flip flops fit in my opinion. 

I don't believe Texas Central Partners decided where to hold the initial event when they announced their intentions to build the DFW to Houston HSR line, that they were instead invited to the event.

If that event had been booked by the hosts in Austin or San Antonio instead, that wouldn't mean they will be going there, now would it?

 

Additionally, the Federal Transportation funds they hope to tap are TIFIA loans.

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ipd/tifia/

The Transportation Infrastructure Finance and Innovation Act (TIFIA) program provides Federal credit assistance in the form of direct loans, loan guarantees, and standby lines of credit to finance surface transportation projects of national and regional significance. TIFIA credit assistance provides improved access to capital markets, flexible repayment terms, and potentially more favorable interest rates than can be found in private capital markets for similar instruments. TIFIA can help advance qualified, large-scale projects that otherwise might be delayed or deferred because of size, complexity, or uncertainty over the timing of revenues. Many surface transportation projects - highway, transit, railroad, intermodal freight, and port access - are eligible for assistance. Each dollar of Federal funds can provide up to $10 in TIFIA credit assistance - and leverage $30 in transportation infrastructure investment.

 

TIFIA is presently involved with three projects within Texas today. They are:

 

(1) Grand Parkway around Houston (Segments D,E,F, and G)

TIFIA assistance = $841 Million of a total of $2.9 Billion project

 

(2)  Central Texas Turnpike around Austin 

TIFIA assistance = $900 Million of a total of $3.25 Billion project

 

(3) North Texas Express (Segments 1 and 2A)

TIFIA assistance = $650 Million of a total of $2 Billion project

 

Other Texas projects TIFIA projects

 

(1) Central Texas Turnpike around Austin (Segments 5 and 6)

TIFIA assistance = $430 Million of a total of $1.33 Billion project

 

(2) LBJ Managed Lanes 

TIFIA assistance = $850 Million of a total of $2.62 Billion project

 

(3) Bush Turnpike Western Extension

TIFIA assistance = $418 Million of a total of $1.1 Billion project

 

(4) DART Orange Line (Segment 3)

TIFIA assistance = $120 Million of a total of $397 Million project

 

(5) North Texas Express (Segments 3A and 3B)

TIFIA assistance = $531 Million of a total of $1.64 Billion project

 

NOTE: Many of the Texas projects to date, not all, were to help finance toll managed lanes or turnpikes being built and ran by private enterprises.  All the private TIFIA loans are to be repaid by the private enterprise using the tolls they collect. DART will repay its loans by its revenues it collects in the future, from fares and taxes. All the money capital resources came from private resources, not one penny in federal dollars was used other than administrating the federal program at USDOT. 

 

[RD Milhollin]

Channel 5 NBC report: TRC HSR payback $36B through 2040 ! (?):

 

http://www.nbcdfw.co...partner=nbcnews

[Dylan]

Doubtful.

[Electricron]

Doubtful.

Do you have any studies to support your opinion?

 

Admittedly, Texas Central paid for the study performed by Insight Research Corp. from Allen, Texas; so the study's outcome could have been tainted somewhat and possibly over optimistic. Since IRC specializes in telecommunications, I'm not so sure they have any track record analyzing transportation. Never-the-less, they are knowledgeable on how to properly conduct a study over economic impacts in general. Taking a line from recent commercials, "that's their business, that's what they do."

 

What do you think the economic impacts dollar value will be for the Dallas to Houston HSR? Can you provide us a number value?

[renamerusk]

 

Doubtful.

 

Do you have any studies to support your opinion?
 

 

Watching the NBCDFW5 report, the comments made by Mayor Rawlings seem rather rosy, hopeful; so combined in one word ; "doubtful". 

 

No studies actually needed, but there is ample skepticism that comes about from the sorts of suggestions one can take from the mayor's remarks:

 

Suggestion #1 -  A HSR passing thru Southern Dallas will invigorate that sector of Dallas.

 

Isn't that what I-45 does already? With I-45 you have gas stations and road retail to add to the tax bases of the counties between the two cities.  How is a project with two terminals going to do this.  Do the railroads pay taxes to every city that it passes through? Unless TCR builds a station (TOD)  in every county that it passes through, how does its project actually generate additional tax revenues? In one county, it has been projected that tax revenues will actually fall due to a devaluation of current property values.

 

Suggestion #2 - HSR will be comparable to the impacts to Dallas as has been DFW Airport, and get this one, the Dallas Arts District.

 

People will come to South Dallas for the hotels and restaurants and the night life generated by the HSR. Implicit in this suggestion is that the highest concentration of under employment in Dallas will be reduced by employing these residents specifically to build and work in the development of this project.

 

HSR is not DFW Airport.  State Farms, Toyota , American Airlines, etc. would never have relocated to North Texas if there is only one destination at the line of a HSR project - Dallas or Houston. 

 

Name a company that will cite the DAD as a primary reason for it to come to Dallas; and I doubt that it can be cited, if so, then State Farms and Toyota would be building corporate headquarters along Ross Avenue.

[Dylan]

 

Doubtful.

Do you have any studies to support your opinion?

 

Admittedly, Texas Central paid for the study performed by Insight Research Corp. from Allen, Texas; so the study's outcome could have been tainted somewhat and possibly over optimistic. Since IRC specializes in telecommunications, I'm not so sure they have any track record analyzing transportation. Never-the-less, they are knowledgeable on how to properly conduct a study over economic impacts in general. Taking a line from recent commercials, "that's their business, that's what they do."

 

What do you think the economic impacts dollar value will be for the Dallas to Houston HSR? Can you provide us a number value?

 

 

Nope. But as renamerusk said, it seems overly optimistic.

 

That said, I'm still upset this line won't end in downtown Houston. This project seems like a massive waste of money.

[Electricron]

Nope. But as renamerusk said, it seems overly optimistic.

 

That said, I'm still upset this line won't end in downtown Houston. This project seems like a massive waste of money.

 

Texas Central is suggesting a price tag around $10 Billion for the entire 240-250 mile HSR line. Amtrak, or more correctly the FRA, is suggesting a price tag around $15 Billion for two new three mile long rail tunnels under the Hudson River. Who knows how much it will cost to repair and refurbish the existing two rail tunnels afterwards? Which is a more massive waste of taxpayers money?

 

At least Texas Central is proposing using private market capital for financing. The FRA isn't. The entire FRA "Gateway" project will be financed by federal and state governments, probably 50% by the feds and 50% by NY's and NJ's Port Authority. 

 

​If the HSR passenger service earns a profit after a few startup years and establishing itself, and pays off its bonds, would it be a waste of money? If it goes bankrupt, the government doesn't have to step in and save it if it doesn't wish to, only the bondholders would be taking the loss. 

[Dylan]

$15 billion for two tunnels? Sounds astronomically insane! You could build over a dozen TEX Rail lines for that money.

 

If Texas Central won't design the line to downtown Houston, I hope it doesn't get built regardless of how it's paid for.

[renamerusk]

 

Nope. But as renamerusk said, it seems overly optimistic.

 

That said, I'm still upset this line won't end in downtown Houston. This project seems like a massive waste of money.

 

(1) Texas Central is suggesting a price tag around $10 Billion for the entire 240-250 mile HSR line. Amtrak, or more correctly the FRA, is suggesting a price tag around $15 Billion for two new three mile long rail tunnels under the Hudson River. Who knows how much it will cost to repair and refurbish the existing two rail tunnels afterwards? Which is a more massive waste of taxpayers money?

 

​(2)  If it [TCR] goes bankrupt, the government doesn't have to step in and save it if it doesn't wish to, only the bondholders would be taking the loss. 

 

 

 1. Waste? The Northeast Corridor accounts alone for 20% of National GDP.  Add the Southern Eastern Seaboard, Virginia to Florida and you realize the absolute importance the Hudson River Tunnels for a modern connector to replace a century old infrastructure to ensure uninterrupted passenger and freight traffic.

 

2. That is one of the legitimate reasons for skepticism about this project.  Bankruptcy is a real possibility, TCR will change the landscape permanently and will cause harm either way.  It would be a disaster trying to put the pieces back together again. To assert that the Government would have the option of doing nothing is a fallacy.  Projects like HSR require the full faith and credit of a sovereign entity that have the ability to weather financial turmoils.

[Electricron]

Here's a state by state list of GSP: 

 California 2,424,033

 Texas 1,648,007

 New York 1,444,406

 Florida 883,735

 Illinois 764,817

 Pennsylvania 677,582

 Ohio 592,899

 New Jersey 573,947

 North Carolina 496,180

 Georgia 493,423

 Massachusetts 476,919

 Virginia 473,606

 Michigan 462,252

 Washington 446,096

 Maryland 360,969

 Minnesota 330,782

 Indiana 326,538

 Colorado 316,535

 Tennessee 307,125

 Wisconsin 296,971

 Arizona 295,445

 Missouri 287,207

 Connecticut 259,661

 Louisiana 252,965

 Oregon 225,661

 Alabama 207,303

 South Carolina 196,887

 Kentucky 192,874

 Oklahoma 181,089

 Iowa 168,089

 Utah 146,697

 Kansas 146,219

 Nevada 140,608

 Arkansas 122,492

 District of Columbia 121,798

 Nebraska 112,208

 Mississippi 106,880

 New Mexico 90,810

 Hawaii 79,595

 New Hampshire 71,632

 West Virginia 71,123

 Delaware 66,150

 Idaho 65,202

 Rhode Island 56,323

 Maine 55,137

 Alaska 54,256

  North Dakota 53,686

 Montana 45,799

 South Dakota 45,415

 Wyoming 40,170

 Vermont 29,750

 

Total = 18,125,000

NEC = MA, RI, CT, NY, NJ, PA, DE, MY, DoC = 3,980,842

NEC% = 3,980,842 / 18,125,000  x 100 = 21.9%

TX% = 1,648,007 / 18,125,000 x 100 = 9.1%

Source >  https://en.wikipedia...._states_by_GDP

 

Not bad for one lone state vs eight states plus DC.

I see nothing wrong with Texas spending half as much for intercity rail as the NEC.

[Russ Graham]

I see nothing wrong with Texas spending half as much for intercity rail as the NEC.

 

 

Right, and it's more of a bargain than that - we (well, Dallas and Houston) are getting a complete system for half of the "upgrade" cost for the NEC (if I'm following the discussion right).

 

My 2 cents - nobody ever built a complete rail network in one go.  There's nothing wrong with original terminals outside the city center.  Who knows what the system will grow into once it starts.  If anybody in the world can say what a profitable HSR line looks like it's the Japanese... google the Tokaiedo Shinkansen line.  5.3 billion (with a "B") riders  annually in its history.   That's about 300 miles, and not a "flat, straight" shot as some have implied is necessary.  There are a bunch of stops on the way and different classes of service.  The fastest trains go from one terminus to the other, and slower trains stop at all points in between (not a new concept for train service). 

 

EDITED for reading comprehension failure...

[renamerusk]

I see nothing wrong with Texas spending half as much for intercity rail as the NEC.

 

So now it is Texas spending..

 

Hasn't it been insisted from the beginning that this is a taxpayer free project?

 

IMO, what is being argued as a counter example of "waste" in post #321 is odd.  To seemingly compare the economic impact of rail connection between Houston, non-stop rural Texas, and Dallas to rail connection along the eastern seaboard from southern Florida to Maine, and points in between, is an absurdity . Extrapolating from statistics cited in posts #316 & #324, here are, in theory, the waste:return equations for each project -

 

    Hudson River Tunnel Project [Eastern Seaboard] $15B : $6.1T annually

    Texas Central Railway [Dallas - Houston]     $11B(+/- 1) : $1.6B annually

 

  It was not probably a good idea to make this particular comparison.

[Electricron]

 

I see nothing wrong with Texas spending half as much for intercity rail as the NEC.

 

So now it is Texas spending..

Hasn't it been insisted from the beginning that this is a taxpayer free project?

No, I was making an argument about the ability of the Texas ECONOMY to afford building and running this train; i.e. giving an opinion.

As it stands right now, and has been all along as you suggested, all funds needed to build and run this train are coming from private sources, as far as Texas Central is proposing to build the line today. Future expansions, to downtown Fort Worth, to downtown Houston, or to any other city; that promise hasn't been made yet. Who knows what will happen in the future?

[BlueMound]

Texas High Speed Rail eyes Japanese partners
http://nextbigfuture...panese.html?m=1

[RD Milhollin]

This makes perfect sense. The Japanese have years of experience with HSR and understand the risks and potential returns better than auto-bound Texans and Americans in general. Without outside investment it is unlikely the company will be able to gather the capital needed for this massive project. Once, and if, it is successful and yields returns more domestic investors will be willing to back this sort of venture.

 

Texas High Speed Rail eyes Japanese partners
http://nextbigfuture...panese.html?m=1

[RD Milhollin]

Opponents of TRC project send a letter to Japanese government:

 

http://www.nbcdfw.co...partner=nbcnews

 

Not sure what this is supposed to achieve. I don't remember the Japanese government being involved in this project. Why would it be concerned about a few Texas farmers losing land to transportation development; that is a foregone fact of life in Japan and other industrialized countries. Do the train opponents hope to have that government put pressure on the Japanese company involved in the project, the Japanese investors being sought to finance it, or the US government which is poised to provide a friendly environment for the company?

[Russ Graham]

 

The letter, which was orchestrated by the group Texans Against High-Speed Rail, says, in part, "We remain opposed to the HSR project because it will cause irreparable harm to our communities."

 

sheesh... irreparable harm? to our communities?  What?

[renamerusk]

(1) Opponents of TRC project send a letter to Japanese government....Not sure what this is supposed to achieve. I don't remember the Japanese government being involved in this project.

 

 

 

(2) The letter, which was orchestrated by the group Texans Against High-Speed Rail, says, in part, "We remain opposed to the HSR project because it will cause irreparable harm to our communities."

 

sheesh... irreparable harm? to our communities?  What?

 

(1) Since the U.S. is a new and the most desirable market for exporting HSR technology and hardware, governments from Europe (Germany/France) and the governments of China and Japan are all vying to become the gain the winning foothold to export into the U.S.

 

The Japanese HSR is the modern reinvention of the Japan National Railway.  So of course Japan has a vested interest and is subsidizing its Japanese companies, as too are China and eventually the  Euros.

 

(2) HSR will and does have the potential to do harm, perhaps irreparable, to the ecology environment of rural communities.  To be blind to this is to be ignorant of the facts.  In Japan and China, HSR is a government program, with all the weight of the national policy and is largely not up to a ballot vote.  I am okay with the notion of HSR; it is just that a national policy of this magnitude must have been put before the voters; and not put only before the investors.

[Electricron]

(2) HSR will and does have the potential to do harm, perhaps irreparable, to the ecology environment of rural communities.  To be blind to this is to be ignorant of the facts.  In Japan and China, HSR is a government program, with all the weight of the national policy and is largely not up to a ballot vote.  I am okay with the notion of HSR; it is just that a national policy of this magnitude must have been put before the voters; and not put only before the investors.

How can an electric powered train running in a grade separated, dedicated railroad corridor, at any speed, do harm to the ecology of rural communities? 

 

Noise, freeways and highways are nosier. Every heard a semi truck struggling to climb a grade or use engine brakes?

 

Vibrations, freeways and highways create just as many vibrations. Ever felt a semi truck pass you in the next lane of a freeway?

 

Animal kills, have you seen the dead animals lying off the shoulders and in the center of Texas highways? Try driving several hours along US or Texas numbered highways, especially the two lane varieties, and count the kills during the trip. 

 

Smog, there's no air pollution emitted by the trains unless they catch on fire. I'm pretty sure that's not in their operating plans. 

 

Water pollution, the trains don't use water for power, so the only liquid solution coming from the trains comes from its passengers. I'm pretty sure there will be holding tanks for sewage aboard the trains, and that they will be service daily at the trains' maintenance facilities which will more than likely be located near if not within the city limits of Dallas or Houston - the most urban cities in the State.

 

Rust from the rails, there will be far more freight tracks in Texas than HSR tracks.

 

Have I accounted for all human senses yet? Hearing = Yes. Smell = Yes, Taste = No, Touch = No, Sight = No.

We wouldn't be eating the train, so taste is not in play. 

We wouldn't want to be touching the train at speed in the rural areas, and it would be criminal trespassing if we did.

So, were down to how pretty or ugly the trains will be. Beauty is very subjected, everyone would have a different opinion. I have no idea how urban and rural onlookers will judge the trains beauty, do you?

 

So the only impact rural Texans might be harmed is the HSR corridor restricting access. 

Texas's freeways already restrict access, have they prevented farmers and ranchers from making a profit? Farmers and ranchers have installed their own fences and gates to restrict access. Should Texas demand absolute freedom of access throughout the State and demand every farmer and rancher to tear their fences down? Why should farmers and ranchers have the ability to restrict access while the railroad can't? Doesn't this argument look a little silly now?

 

Do you really believe that Texas Central is going to build a grade separated, dedicated rail corridor the entire distance between Dallas and Houston without including bridges, overpasses and underpasses, culverts, trestles, viaducts, tunnels, or other structures when  and where needed? Did TXDOT build I-45 without any if them? 

[renamerusk]

 

(2) HSR will and does have the potential to do harm, perhaps irreparable, to the ecology environment of rural communities.  To be blind to this is to be ignorant of the facts.  In Japan and China, HSR is a government program, with all the weight of the national policy and is largely not up to a ballot vote.  I am okay with the notion of HSR; it is just that a national policy of this magnitude must have been put before the voters; and not put only before the investors.

 

How can an electric powered train running in a grade separated, dedicated railroad corridor, at any speed, do harm to the ecology of rural communities?.....Noise, freeways and highways are nosier......

So the only impact rural Texans might be harmed is the HSR corridor restricting access. 

Texas's freeways already restrict access, have they prevented farmers and ranchers from making a profit? Farmers and ranchers have installed their own fences and gates to restrict access. Should Texas demand absolute freedom of access throughout the State and demand every farmer and rancher to tear their fences down? Why should farmers and ranchers have the ability to restrict access while the railroad can't? Doesn't this argument look a little silly now?

 

Ecology is a term that was introduced ill advised within this debate; so let it be stricken from the discussion at this time; though, HSR will have an immediately adverse impact upon the environment during the construction phases because of the use of today's heavy equipment.  Again, that is not exactly what I believe is concerning opponents of the HSR in rural counties.

 

Major concerns among the rural counties are (1) property devaluation, (2) loss of agricultural production, and (3)  the upheaval of their lives associated with the HSR project. 

 

It can sound selfish, but rural counties are asking how and what benefits do they receive from a project that is oriented towards urban populations.

 

Many "shoulds" have been introduced by the proponents of HSR.  Yes, the urban populations (mostly wealthy residents) will benefit and investors of economic development will reap benefits too; those can be a compelling argument.   Yet,  to compare the benefits of HSR with the benefits of the  Interstate Highway System is a poor comparison; and so should be addressed at this time -

 

Highways benefit all populations.  Whereas, a HSR will benefit a narrow group of users point to point, the highways are a part of a network connecting goods and services in and out of the rural counties; the highways enable rural and urban populations the ability to connect to every conceivable point within the country.  Instead of having the potential of decreasing property values with no returns as is being suggested by the opponents of the HSR project, highways distributes economic activity for and along all the areas that it impacts; provides a way of transportation for and along all of the areas that they impact - and are perceived to do these things in a more egalitarian way.  HSR provides, at its core, transportation only.

 

Academic research [below] has been undertaken to exam the impact of HSR upon rural counties in China; and even though it is not a direct comparison to the rural counties of Texas v. TCR, the research does give some credence to the negative attitude that TCR faces in a region that has a strong and constitutional belief of property rights.  Their attitude seems to be conveniently dismissed at times for the sake of economic development in urban regions; and the notion that harm to rural counties; their productivity and their environment are mistakes too.

 

The China policy of HSR, like its One-child Policy, has had some adverse consequences as this research finds.

 

http://blogs.worldba...est-post-yu-qin

[Electricron]

Ecology is a term that was introduced ill advised within this debate; so let it be stricken from the discussion at this time; though, HSR will have an immediately adverse impact upon the environment during the construction phases because of the use of today's heavy equipment.  Again, that is not exactly what I believe is concerning opponents of the HSR in rural counties.

 

Major concerns among the rural counties are (1) property devaluation, (2) loss of agricultural production, and (3)  the upheaval of their lives associated with the HSR project. 

 

It can sound selfish, but rural counties are asking how and what benefits do they receive from a project that is oriented towards urban populations.

 

Highways benefit all populations.  Whereas, a HSR will benefit a narrow group of users point to point, the highways are a part of a network connecting goods and services in and out of the rural counties; the highways enable rural and urban populations the ability to connect to every conceivable point within the country.  Instead of having the potential of decreasing property values with no returns as is being suggested by the opponents of the HSR project, highways distributes economic activity for and along all the areas that it impacts; provides a way of transportation for and along all of the areas that they impact - and are perceived to do these things in a more egalitarian way.  HSR provides, at its core, transportation only.

 

Property devaluation only affects them when they sell their land, or borrow from banks using their land as collateral. Meanwhile, Texas Central or another commercial entity will either buy the land or purchase an easement to cross their land from them. The railroad will build new fences along the corridor, replacing some of their existing fences that constantly need repairing. They will be made financially whole.

 

Few farmers or ranchers in Texas use their land fully, either planting crops or raising herds. Our frequent droughts contribute to this. Much of the farmland and ranch land along the preferred route have lignite mines, oil and gas wells, and other things subtracting more acreage from agriculture pursuits than this train will consume.

 

Some upheaval will occur unfortunately. Every transportation project connecting two points affects all the points in between in some way. I just disagree that it will be more than a distraction. I believe they're making mountains out of molehills. The preferred corridor runs between two existing railroad corridors. Do the other two railroad corridors effect them more than a buzzy fly would?

 

Another benefit they will receive is less tourists and businessmen using the highways through their towns and cities because  more of them will be riding on the trains. That's the benefit everyone along the route will receive, and the major reason why this HSR line was proposed i the first place, as a means to avoid highway congestion. 

[RD Milhollin]

The City of Houston is soliciting bids from companies to conduct a study on the feasibility of an extension of the Texas Central Railroad (HSR) system into downtown Houston. The company developing the line wants to terminate at a location next to Loop 610 and US 290, NW of the city center. If the study recommends downtown as the better terminus, it is likely the city will have to come up with significant incentives (land, cash) to entice the company to continue the system into downtown.

 

https://www.houstonp...minal-downtown/

[johnfwd]

This is the first I've read about this particular proposal...I mean the focus on Dallas-Fort Worth, aside from Dallas-Houston.

 

 

http://www.fortworth...3951a41dba.html

[renamerusk]

This is the first I've read about this particular proposal...I mean the focus on Dallas-Fort Worth, aside from Dallas-Houston.

 

Yes. The focus, as for as the State of Texas and Fort Worth/Arlington stand, is clearly on including Tarrant County directly in any HSR project that will involve state money or support.

 

BTW, the rightful blog for this subject is in the High Speed Rail in Texas.

[johnfwd]

 

This is the first I've read about this particular proposal...I mean the focus on Dallas-Fort Worth, aside from Dallas-Houston.

 

Yes. The focus, as for as the State of Texas and Fort Worth/Arlington stand, is clearly on including Tarrant County directly in any HSR project that will involve state money or support.

 

BTW, the rightful blog for this subject is in the High Speed Rail in Texas.

 

W-e-e-e-l.  Not to toot my own horn but to be technically accurate.  I started this particular thread in May 2012 with an NBC Channel 5 news report about a proposed bullet train from Dallas to Houston.  The High Speed Rail in Texas thread was started in May 2014, and it usurped my thread! (No offense intended here).

[BlueMound]

High speed rail projects looking for financing

"Texas Central is paying for engineering studies with $75 million from Texas investors, $40 million from a state-backed Japanese development fund and about $130 million in design work from two firms.

The Dallas-to-Houston rail line is projected to cost $12 billion and be completed by 2021."

 

http://nextbigfuture...ooking-for.html

[renamerusk]

BTW, the rightful blog for this subject is in the High Speed Rail in Texas.

W-e-e-e-l.  Not to toot my own horn but to be technically accurate.  I started this particular thread in May 2012 with an NBC Channel 5 news report about a proposed bullet train from Dallas to Houston.  The High Speed Rail in Texas thread was started in May 2014, and it usurped my thread! (No offense intended here).

 

 No offense taken. However, there was no usurping of a thread; just a valid distinction between the two efforts.

 

 I choose to take the mathematical "symmetric difference" perspective when commenting about HSR; thus the equation:  TCR is to TXDOT-HSR as NTTA is to TXDOT-Highways; both TCR and NTTA are components of a large system.

 

TXDOT-HSR is an effort to develop HSR statewide and regionally, where as TCR is an effort to develop HSR between Dallas and Houston only.

 

High Speed Rail in Texas affords a discussion that does not necessarily require discussing TCR; and if discussing TCR is ones purpose, than Texas Central Railway would be the better thread to do that in.

[johnfwd]

 

BTW, the rightful blog for this subject is in the High Speed Rail in Texas.

W-e-e-e-l.  Not to toot my own horn but to be technically accurate.  I started this particular thread in May 2012 with an NBC Channel 5 news report about a proposed bullet train from Dallas to Houston.  The High Speed Rail in Texas thread was started in May 2014, and it usurped my thread! (No offense intended here).

 

 No offense taken. However, there was no usurping of a thread; just a valid distinction between the two efforts.

 

 I choose to take the mathematical "symmetric difference" perspective when commenting about HSR; thus the equation:  TCR is to TXDOT-HSR as NTTA is to TXDOT-Highways; both TCR and NTTA are components of a large system.

 

TXDOT-HSR is an effort to develop HSR statewide and regionally, where as TCR is an effort to develop HSR between Dallas and Houston only.

 

High Speed Rail in Texas affords a discussion that does not necessarily require discussing TCR; and if discussing TCR is ones purpose, than Texas Central Railway would be the better thread to do that in.

 

Actually, just a little teasing.  We overlap discussion on many threads in this Forum, so what the heck!

 

Regarding Fort Worth to Dallas HSR, I'm all for it provided it is not burdened by between cities stops (like the current TRE system).

[Dylan]

As I've said before, the main purpose of this extention should be to travel between Fort Worth and Houston, not Fort Worth and Dallas.

 

As for Arlington, it needs commuter rail or light rail. HSR is for long distance travel between metro areas.

[RD Milhollin]

Dallas office for Central Japan Railway subsidiary set to open:

 

http://www.fortworth...1fdeff6c2b.html

 

The firm will provide technical guidance for the high speed rail line Texas Central Railway intends to build between Dallas and Houston. A stop in the Brazos Valley (Bryan/College Station) is mentioned, but nothing about Fort Worth, or Arlington or Haltom City for that matter.

[RD Milhollin]

TCR Spokesperson defends Texas HSR business plan against detractors:

 

http://www.star-tele...le92223762.html

[youngalum]

This plan will die in the 2017 legislature as the tea party people who make up the majority of legislators in Texas are dead set against this project. 

 

I mean, if there is any progress to be had in the state, you can rest assured that the Tea Party GOP will be against it.

[renamerusk]

This plan will die in the 2017 legislature as the tea party people who make up the majority of legislators in Texas are dead set against this project. ...I mean, if there is any progress to be had in the state, you can rest assured that the Tea Party GOP will be against it.

 

 I disagree with simply labeling this as a Tea Party opposition.

 

 I believe that it is a least a set of issues: (1) of property rights and whether a private for profit corporation can take the property of landowners; and, (2) of the environmental concerns.

 

 This is more in line with the XL Keystone Pipeline debate.

[Electricron]

 

This plan will die in the 2017 legislature as the tea party people who make up the majority of legislators in Texas are dead set against this project. ...I mean, if there is any progress to be had in the state, you can rest assured that the Tea Party GOP will be against it.

 

 I disagree with simply labeling this as a Tea Party opposition.

 

 I believe that it is a least a set of issues: (1) of property rights and whether a private for profit corporation can take the property of landowners; and, (2) of the environmental concerns.

 

 This is more in line with the XL Keystone Pipeline debate.

 

Sadly, the XL Keystone Pipeline debate was more about where the oil came from than where it was going.  

 

As for property rights, private companies have been using eminent domain for public purposes since the initiation of eminent domain. Texas Central will be following the examples of millions of others private companies.  

 

As for the outcome of the election, politicians often say things in the middle of a political debate they never intend to follow through on. They always promise more than they can deliver. 

[360texas]

The Fort Worth Star-telegram Saturday 17 Sept 16  had an article by Gordon Dickson about the "Battle over eminent domain could shoot down the bullet train project"

 

There are 3 or more groups planning on fighting it out in court. As mentioned in the article 1. "Texas Central Railroad and Infrastructure Inc" have no depots, locomotives, tracks, or ties. Its a company only on paper.  2. The land owners who signed up to lease or sell their property.   3. The other folks will not sell or lease their property.  OH yes and then there are their individual group of lawyers. Guess that makes 4 groups.

 

The Texas Railroad Commission (TRC)  does have eminent domain authority for public utilities, electric companies etc. But decided against delegating that authority to the Texas Central Railroad and Infrastructure Inc privately for profit owned company.  

 

My opinion is the TRC probably does not think that the privately owned for profit bullet train company will not meet the criteria of a "public utility".    

 

Federal Surface Transportation Board has no jurisdiction of the INTRASTATE project and will let the issue of eminent domain be decided within Texas.  Meaning ? Maybe have to be decided by lawmakers next January in Austin.  I think at this point the Texas Central Railroad and Infrastructure Inc would have to prove first they can use eminent domain.

 

It does not fall under a Federal project nor State project. and is not Texas state funded project.    The article also mentioned that the bullet train profit company is not funded by a foreign entity so no foreign funds.  Simply put, It is privately funded project.

 

One of the points the article mentioned was,  The bullet train company is threatening land owners along their proposed route who are not going to sell or lease their property with Eminent Domain law suite.  Sounds silly to me because they can't legally do that.   Just because the company name reads like its an official "Texas Central Railroad and Infrastructure Inc" its not a railroad company (well maybe on paper) and does not entitle them to use eminent domain to acquire land from private owners.

 

I would guess that more than half the The Texas State public would not benefit from this bullet train project because of lack of  "Public use and service access".  Can't get to it from where I sit.

[Electricron]

One of the points the article mentioned was,  The bullet train company is threatening land owners along their proposed route who are not going to sell or lease their property with Eminent Domain law suite.  Sounds silly to me because they can't legally do that.   Just because the company name reads like its an official "Texas Central Railroad and Infrastructure Inc" its not a railroad company (well maybe on paper) and does not entitle them to use eminent domain to acquire land from private owners.

 

I would guess that more than half the The Texas State public would not benefit from this bullet train project because of lack of  "Public use and service access".  Can't get to it from where I sit.

Let's see, per your definition they would need tracks, ballast, trains, and a train station on the ground to become a real railroad company and not just one on paper. That can all be done in about 300 feet of track somewhere in Dallas or Houston, or both. Then eminent domain to connect the two would be for a public service.  That would be easy to do. 

[johnfwd]

Why is anyone even talking about the Texas Railroad Commission in this context? 

 

Excerpted from the TRC website: 

 

When the Railroad Commission of Texas was created in 1891, the agency was charged with oversight of the rail industry. Over the course of history, the Commission’s duties have evolved and all rail functions have been transferred to other agencies. Legislation has been introduced to change the name of the agency to better reflect its current jurisdiction, but to date such legislation has not passed.