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Confederate Memorials and Names


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#1 johnfwd

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 02:13 PM

Relevant to the discussion in another thread is the issue of Confederate flags and statues, which we've read were erected during the Civil Rights era (late 50s and early 60s) as a protest of the black minority integration of schools and public facilities.   The area news media has focused on statues in Dallas.  Does anyone know whether there are Confederate statues and/or flags in Fort Worth?   If so, do you know which locations?



#2 Austin55

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 02:25 PM

I'm not aware of any statues, but there is a Jefferson Davis park. Just today, a petition was started to try and get the name changed.

https://www.change.o...mail_responsive

#3 Doohickie

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 03:01 PM

I'm not aware of any statues, but there is a Jefferson Davis park. Just today, a petition was started to try and get the name changed.

https://www.change.o...mail_responsive

 

All due to that rabble-rouser, Bud Kennedy.


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#4 renamerusk

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 06:57 PM

I'm not aware of any statues, but there is a Jefferson Davis park. Just today, a petition was started to try and get the name changed.....

 

 This should be done PDQ. 

 

Pity the city with the last civil war memorial; that city will become the "mother of all" magnets and the final battle of armageddon between good and evil.



#5 youngalum

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:27 AM

I am 100% against the folks that want to stage an event in CS.  As a lawyer, IMHO the school is on shaky legal grounds in denying the right to stage the event.  Wouldn't it be interesting if the ACLU was part of the suit?  Which I think they will and that will make some of the crazies heads explode but it would be fun to watch that crap show unfold from a legal standpoint.

 

Sad times that we have to even deal with the alt-right and their attempts to legitimize themselves into mainstream political discourse.



#6 JBB

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:53 AM

The alt-right movement saying that they will use the ACLU to fight the denial is as man bites dog as it gets.

#7 pelligrini

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 01:11 PM

I think the ACLU has argued for some of those types of groups before.


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#8 Doohickie

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 01:15 PM

They argued for them in Charlottesville.  I believe the leader of their local chapter resigned from his leadership position over it.  In other words, I don't see them fighting for that crowd ever again.


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#9 johnfwd

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 06:17 AM

I pinned my name to the change-the-name petition regarding Jefferson Davis Park in Fort Worth. But I have mixed feelings about all this.  Remember the old adage, "sticks and stones will break my bones but names can never harm me"?  I suppose taking down flags and statues will make many of us feel better about the country's disposition toward races and nationalities, but these actions are really cosmetic.  Change occurs in the heart and mind of each of us, not in such externalities as ridding the landscape of monuments.

 

As to Jefferson Davis, my reading of history tells me he was popular among Southerners in the beginning.  But soon after 1861 he ran into troubles in mishandling of the war effort by playing armchair general.  Davis also encountered political friction between his central authority and the recalcitrant state governments.. This tension was inevitable because the Southern Confederacy was modeled after our country's difficult experience with government under the "Articles of Confederation" that existed prior to the new constitutional framework of 1787.  Then, at the close of the Civil War, there was the unfriendly tune, "We'll Hang Jeff Davis to a Sour Apple Tree!"



#10 renamerusk

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 08:07 AM

I pinned my name to the change-the-name petition regarding Jefferson Davis Park in Fort Worth....

 

 What is the name of the neighborhood where JDP is located?



#11 JBB

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 08:17 AM

So is there an effort under way to change the name of the Davis Mountains in West Texas?

#12 renamerusk

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 08:27 AM

So is there an effort under way to change the name of the Davis Mountains in West Texas?

 

 

Changing the name of symbols that were established during an ill-thought out reaction in the early to mid 20th Century to defy societal change should be considered.  Consider that the end of life for three individuals would have been avoided had these symbols not been created and  worshiped.

 

Sam Houston and the many Texans who did not support succession and remained loyal to the U.S. are more worthy recipients of honor than Jefferson Davis who was a failure, committed treason,  and who never placed foot on Texas soil.

 

Correction: Davis sailed into Galveston. He fought in the Battle of Monterrey (Mexico) and the Battle of Buena Vista (Mexico).



#13 Doohickie

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 08:56 AM

 

I pinned my name to the change-the-name petition regarding Jefferson Davis Park in Fort Worth....

 

 What is the name of the neighborhood where JDP is located?

 

 

I think it would be considered part of the Rosemont neighborhood.  Maybe John Roberts can weigh in; that's not too far from his 'hood.


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#14 renamerusk

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 10:20 AM

Quick check:

 

William J. Worth of Hudson, New York was a Quaker but he was not a pacificist and enlisted in the military.  His religion was the first body to fully condemn slavery. 

 

Edward H. Tarrant, of South Carolina was a plantation and slave owner and probably may have been a supporter for succession had he lived beyond 1858.  It is possible that he could have also remained loyal to the U.S. as did many Texans at the time, but South Carolina was the first state to succeed and he may have felt a greater loyalty to the CSA.



#15 Keller Pirate

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 11:30 AM

Pretty sure Jeff Davis was in Texas when he fought in the Mexican-American war. He may have also visited when he was Secretary of War. A lot of ex-confederate officers touched every facet of Texas life and institutions in the late 1800's. Texas A&M itself was saved by General Ross CSA after UT opened and people didn't see a reason for 2 schools to exist. There is a statue of Ross at A&M. Is the corps of cadets a throwback to confederate military drills?

Let's not forget BB Paddock and KM Van Zant in Fort Worth. Should the bridge or former bank building be torn down? Texas will never be able to get rid of all its confederate past. If you move onto the folks that belonged to the KKK in the 1920's it would take 2 lifetimes to scrub them from history. Historical figures will always fall short when judged by present day standards, we will too someday.

#16 Doohickie

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 11:35 AM

There's a difference, I think, between honoring/memorializing a person for their contributions to society versus for their treasonous behavior.  Ross's statue is there by virtue of his contribution to the school, not due to his role as a member of the Confederate Army.

 

Also, the "why?" of the statue's erection enters into it.  If was erected as a knee-jerk reaction to the civil rights movement (i.e., to make non-whites feel uncomfortable), it should probably come down.


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#17 Keller Pirate

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 05:19 PM

I would tend to agree with you, but others won't. They won't be happy until everything is scrubbed clean. In the last couple years buildings and schools at Harvard and Yale have been renamed because the donors were slaveholders. Those kids that forced those changes will be running the country in 20 years. Also the use of the word treason has gained popularity in recent weeks. It wasn't in wide use 150 years ago when all those treasonous confederates were around to actually punish.

A friend is visiting from Connecticut and we were discussing the statue issue. He and I have both seen hundreds of statues throughout New England honoring soldiers that fought in the Civil War. He pointed out that they are generally just to the average soldier. Very few statues of generals. We found it interesting that there are not very many statues of Grant, a winner, but hundreds of statues of Lee, a loser.

#18 renamerusk

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 08:33 PM

I would tend to agree with you, but others won't. They won't be happy until everything is scrubbed clean....

 

 What is the lesson to be learned or the glory to be derived from the worst calamity to ever beset this country - Slavery?....millions of Americans wounded, killed and the devastation of half of the nation?...the reverberations for which are with us today? Its best that everything associated with this chapter in American History be forgotten.  It can not be revived in the American 21st Century.



#19 Doohickie

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:12 AM

Its best that everything associated with this chapter in American History be forgotten.


"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -George Santayana


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#20 johnfwd

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:35 AM

 

So is there an effort under way to change the name of the Davis Mountains in West Texas?

 

.

"...Sam Houston and the many Texans who did not support succession and remained loyal to the U.S. are more worthy recipients of honor than Jefferson Davis who was a failure, committed treason,  and who never placed foot on Texas soil..."

 

 

 

Not meaning to be argumentative about the point you're making, which has merit.  But, I've been reading some Texas history through James Michener's "Texas."  Though its fiction, Michener usually bases his work on an accurate historical account.  What struck me was that the early "Americanos" who came to Texas in the 1820s were upset because the state's present owner, Mexico, outlawed slavery.  Conceivably, the new Texans rebelled from Mexico, not just t0 gain independent, but to institute slavery.  And, as we know, Texas came into the Union as a slave state.  This is a sensitive issue today, but it may cast aspersions about the "honor" we bestow on Stephen F. Austin, Sam Houston, Davy Crockett, James Bonham, and their like.  Having said that, we proudly pay tribute to  some with their names (e.g.s, "Bonham, Texas," "Crockett, Texas,"  "Bowie, Texas," "Travis County") because they were heroes at the Alamo.

 

 

 

.



#21 pelligrini

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 09:07 AM

Also the use of the word treason has gained popularity in recent weeks. It wasn't in wide use 150 years ago when all those treasonous confederates were around to actually punish.

 

From what I've read, at the time, treason was widely used. Lincoln and the Congress passed some requirements for amnesty starting in December of 1863. Johnson finally made a proclamation on December 25th of 1868 granting a full pardon and amnesty for the offence of treason during the civil war. I'm not to keen on using the term now, in light of the prior acts of Congress and the Presidents. There were treasonous acts and actors, but calling them traitors now is not correct.

 

I have a hard time with removing all the monuments, but that is coming from an almost purely architectural view. Many of the designs and detailing are impressive, not to even mention the craftsmanship that went into them. Moving them to another place may not work well either as a lot of the more impressive designs include how it works with the site and surrounds. I have no qualms removing an inappropriate bust from a courthouse.


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#22 Russ Graham

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 09:17 AM

You learn interesting things about history in times like these.  I learned the other day that Robert E. Lee was opposed to commemorating the Confederacy after the Civil War.

 

He said for example,

 

 

I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.

 

I'd say the last week has certainly validated Lee's views on the matter.

 

Here's an article on CNN about it:  http://www.cnn.com/2...trnd/index.html



#23 johnfwd

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 09:35 AM

And, my reading of some historical accounts is that Robert E. Lee initially refused to become commander of the Union army in the spring of 1861 because his first loyalty was to defend his state of Virginia, which was about to secede from the Union.



#24 renamerusk

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:53 AM

 

Its best that everything associated with this chapter in American History be forgotten.


"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -George Santayana

 

 

 When making this suggestion, I was aware of the spirit in Santayana's quote.and I was also a bit hesitant to do so.

 

Our great and saving grace is that the repeating of this past will be impossible to achieve because of the splendor of our diversity; our amazing personal relationships; and our boundless belief in fairness and humanity. The character of our country is shining through and rejecting by overwhelming opinion that hate and evil are not the predominant emotions of the American People.

 

Suggesting that everything about this past that shall never have the ingredients to make it happen should forgotten may have been better stated as simply ignored by sane people as the impossible delusions of a group of social pathetic degenerates.



#25 Doohickie

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 12:33 PM

And, my reading of some historical accounts is that Robert E. Lee initially refused to become commander of the Union army in the spring of 1861 because his first loyalty was to defend his state of Virginia, which was about to secede from the Union.

 

The name of the country was a plural prior to the Civil War:  "The United States are entering into a treaty."

After the war, it shifted to a single entity:  "The United States is entering into a treaty."

 

The difference was that most people identified with their state first, then the United States second.  The current understanding for most people is to identify as an American first and their state of birth or state of residency second (if at all).  So given the choice, it's not altogether unreasonable that Lee chose his native Virginia.

 

When my kids were in school and the state made a fuss about reciting the pledge to the Texas flag, I told them they didn't have to say it if they didn't want to, and I would back them up.  My reasoning is that we are citizens of the United States, but only residents of Texas.


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#26 JBB

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 01:45 PM

Under pressure to remove the Confederate States flag (not the battle flag) from their parks, Six Flags has chosen to only fly the American flag:

http://www.star-tele...e167953237.html

Full disclosure: I worked at the local park for several years and have a number of friends and a family member that still work there. I'm hearing that it is being spun internally as: people in Texas understand the historical significance of the flags, but people from other states do not and the media cannot be trusted to explain it properly. Rather than let the situation distract from their entertainment mission, they will only display one flag going forward.

I have mixed feelings. This is certainly better than removing the one flag and pretending it didn't exist or shoehorning in another flag that has nothing to do with Texas.

#27 Austin55

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 01:59 PM

Silly. Six Flags is a theme, not really honoring the Confederacy. They are about the only place I would give a pass to fly the flag. 



#28 Doohickie

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 02:13 PM

I'm a damyankee and even I think they shoulda left it alone.


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#29 JBB

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 02:23 PM

Silly. Six Flags is a theme, not really honoring the Confederacy. They are about the only place I would give a pass to fly the flag.


The flag was the only part of the theme left. The Confederacy area of the park was renamed Old South several years ago and any semblance of Confederate related theming was removed many years before that.

#30 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 02:58 PM

How ironic. Six Flags just offended a bunch of people with their decision to remove "offensive" flags.


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#31 RD Milhollin

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:51 PM

Several years ago the park shifted from using the Confederate Battle Flag (Stars and Bars) to the national flag, 13 circled stars on a blue quarter field and three stripes. I doubt if most of the torch carrying thugs at Charlottesville would have recognized that as the Confederate flag... Yeah, Six Flags probably over-reacted, but I bet their lawyers are happy. As concerns renaming Jeff Davis Park: Great idea, well past due. "Pappy" O'Daniel Park? Ornette Coleman Park? Fess Parker Park? Alan Bean Park?



#32 GenE

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:26 AM

 

And, my reading of some historical accounts is that Robert E. Lee initially refused to become commander of the Union army in the spring of 1861 because his first loyalty was to defend his state of Virginia, which was about to secede from the Union.

 

The name of the country was a plural prior to the Civil War:  "The United States are entering into a treaty."

After the war, it shifted to a single entity:  "The United States is entering into a treaty."

 

The difference was that most people identified with their state first, then the United States second.  The current understanding for most people is to identify as an American first and their state of birth or state of residency second (if at all).  

 

Except in Texas, where we are known for taking pride in being born in Texas, and those who were not so fortunate will proclaim, "I wasn't born in Texas but I got here as soon as I could."



#33 renamerusk

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:34 AM

Except in Texas, where we are known for taking pride in being born in Texas, and those who were not so fortunate will proclaim, "I wasn't born in Texas but I got here as soon as I could."

 

 

  Except this is the latest in a series of accounts that cause me to take no pride in being born in Texas.



#34 Keller Pirate

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 01:57 PM

I think the flag decision was a tough one to make, but probably the right one. Six Flags over Texas hasn't been around that long and the corporate entity is just Six Flags. Not worth the trouble that is brewing to get some folks riledup and maybe lose business in other states.

Destroying or hiding monuments that have been around 80 to 120 years seems foolish. I am surprised that Fort Worth has so few confederate monuments. I think the 1953 tombstone at the courthouse is a little to late to the game and maybe should go. The S-T article about the mouments that have been erected in neighboring counties since 2000 was a surprise. I can't believe spending money on new monuments today could be justified.

#35 Doohickie

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 09:58 PM

"Pappy" O'Daniel Park? Ornette Coleman Park? Fess Parker Park? Alan Bean Park?

 
Che Guevara Park


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#36 Doohickie

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:00 PM

Except in Texas, where we are known for taking pride in being born in Texas, and those who were not so fortunate will proclaim, "I wasn't born in Texas but I got here as soon as I could."


Yeah, well, Texas is...... different.


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#37 Austin55

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 11:14 AM

Dallas pulling down their Robert E. Lee monument. 

 

http://www.wfaa.com/...ments/471523557



#38 johnfwd

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 12:18 PM

An update on renaming Jefferson Davis Park.  Parque Unidad?

 

 

http://www.nbcdfw.co...-448358753.html



#39 Doohickie

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 10:42 AM

Parque Unidad?

 

I'll allow it.


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#40 elpingüino

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 08:03 AM

Jefferson Davis Park is officially renamed Parque Unidad. Star Telegram report on the City Council vote: http://www.star-tele...e189469449.html The signage might still take a while to reflect the change.

(Speaking of renaming, could we have this thread changed to a label that describes the broader topic please? Took me a while to find it)

#41 John T Roberts

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 08:36 AM

What do you suggest for a new title of the thread? 



#42 renamerusk

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 09:30 AM

....(Speaking of renaming, could we have this thread changed to a label that describes the broader topic please? Took me a while to find it)

 

Yes, I frequently share similar frustration. :blink:



#43 elpingüino

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 08:57 PM

I suggest splitting the thread where the topic changes, around post #11, and naming it "Confederate Memorials and Names." Thanks

#44 John T Roberts

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 09:47 PM

The thread has been split.

 

I think it would be considered part of the Rosemont neighborhood.  Maybe John Roberts can weigh in; that's not too far from his 'hood.

 

JDP, now Parque Unidad, is located in an area served by the Rosemont Neighborhood Association, and is considered part of "The Rosemont Neighborhood".  Like Fairmount, Rosemont consists of several additions and/or subdivisions of the city.  The addition or subdivision in which the park actually sits is the Blanton's Addition.



#45 RD Milhollin

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 12:06 AM

 

"Pappy" O'Daniel Park? Ornette Coleman Park? Fess Parker Park? Alan Bean Park?

 
Che Guevara Park

 

 

Durn, I didn't know he was from Fort Worth!



#46 johnfwd

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 01:40 PM

The anti-confederate memorial, statue, etc. movement across the country seems to have faded, at least for now.  Just out of curiosity, I did some googling about confederate generals or similar historical figures honored by having communities or counties named after them.  Here's a list from Wikipedia.  I take no strong position on this controversial issue, but can you imagine having to re-name all the jurisdictions in this list?

 

https://en.wikipedia...torical_figures






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