35 replies to this topic

[Thurman52]

I have noticed two photo enforced stoplights in SW FtW, may be more. Bellaire/Hulen and Vickery / Bryant Irvin Ramp.

I read somewhere that many cities were not getting as much revenue as they were predicting from these, does anyone know if FtW is contracted out these units or what they plan on doing w/ the revenue? Hopefully fix some streets.

[John T Roberts]

I don't know the details regarding these lights, but the one at Hulen and Bellaire is not operational yet. A couple of weeks ago, they drilled the piers for additional poles that are a part of these projects, but nothing has been erected. About Thursday, the signs went up on the streets surrounding the intersection.

[safly]

Apparently it is pretty tough to collect the fines from the incident. It is considered a moving violation in this state, and a fine can ONLY be LEGALLY assessed to the individual driver in the vehicle, not the registered owner. For now.

[Keller Pirate]

In the session this year the legislature passed a bill that was signed by the govenor that will sunset red light cameras by September 1, 2009....unless they change their mind in the next session and vote to reinstate them.

The maximum fine was set at $75 and cities have to split the money with the state. Supposedly they were trying to cut into the massive profit potential of the cameras.

Also, any city that didn't have a contract with a red light camera company by September 1, 2007 couldn't install any cameras after that date. Out where I live Westlake and Southlake signed up before Sept 1 but haven't installed any cameras yet, they still have the option. Keller didn't sign a contract so you won't ever see any cameras here.

The fines are for the vehicle, not the driver. There also were some limits put on use of collection agencies to collect the fines. I believe the worst that can happen is you can't get your vehicle or drivers license renewed if you don't pay.

In California red light cameras ticket the driver and the fines are between $300-400 for a violation. They match the picture of the driver to the drivers license of the registered owner. Most of the time that is sufficent to ID the driver. I have heard they send teaser tickets to registered owners when they can't match the drivers photo to any ID. It looks like a real ticket and they lead you to believe you will have to pay unless you tell the ticket company who the driver is. It isn't a real ticket and you don't have to respond but it works pretty good.

I can only speculate why the lesislature left open the door to changing their vote next session...$$$.
Can you spell Lobbyist?

Here is a Federal study on the benefits of Red Light Cameras. http://www.tfhrc.gov...ety/pubs/05049/
Here is another point of view. http://www.thenewspa...7/road-eyes.asp
This one is short and to the point. http://www.thenewspa...ews/20/2024.asp

[Thurman52]

John they are up but not running at both intersections. If the city follows the path of other area cities they will advertise in the local media about the new cameras have a 90 grace period where they send warnings and then begin the fines after that.

If they have to a contract w/ a company as Keller Pirate suggests, then I assume FtW does too. I like the idea to deter red light runners, but hope the city is not banking on the revenue.

[TexasPacific52]

There is a "photo enforced" sign now installed at Elizabeth & 8th Ave but no other signs up yet.

[lens314]

There is now one at Western Center and Beach as well. Was being worked on 2 weeks ago, looks like they finished them. Not sure if they are operational or not, and not wanting to find out either.

[safly]

IDEAR:

They should have it were these camera posts send a "PING" to a satellite which tracks the vehicle and driver , and then records the driver leaving the vehicle (hopefully) with a much clearer understanding of who is driving.

With today's economic woes and who knows what the immediate future holds, I can see this as a necesary tool for this particular violation. I am sure that the practice of numerous drivers for one vehicle families/groups will be even more common.

We have the TECHNOLOGY (surveillance) to make this stick, but then the $300-$500/vioaltion ticket can be "justified" greatly.

The whole pay when you renew a license, annual or title doesn't stick. You can always argue that your LATE relative/friend would ALWAYS borrow the car when needed. And then we would just be WASTING money in the courts system. Potentially.

[John T Roberts]

Thurman, I guess I didn't notice the cameras. I usually go throught that intersection and I actually haven't seen them. They've still drilled some piers for something in the islands. I will take a better look at the intersection this week.

[Keller Pirate]

I had to correct my oringinal post, it was Westlake not Roanoke that has signed up for camera's. One of the locations they want to install them at is Roanoke Rd. and 170 and some locations along Hwy 114.

It is interesting that a town with no city property tax is so concerned with the safety of others passing along the fringe of their town.

[RD Milhollin]

Just a little different point of view on the red-light camera issue:

In many if not most cases the camera is installed, operated, and maintained by a private firm. That company also monitors the violation, and issues citations on city ticket stock. The municipal judges are in some cases severely handicapped in their ability to provide exceptional remedies for questionable infractions.

In essence, one might say that one aspect of an essential municipal function, ie, law enforcement, has been "outsourced". This would appeal to many libertarians and extreme economic conservatives as a good thing. Of course, once this door is open, why not go the next step further; why not just outsource the police department? Or the Fire Department? The emergency ambulance service is already handled this way.

[safly]

Because there is an IMMEDIATE probability for corruption.

Take a look at Blackwater (private contractor) in IRAQ. A Dept. within the State Dept./Dept. of Justice provided immediate partial immunity once IT hit the fan.

Just a BIG MESS can ensue with this ideaolgy.

I'd rather have people who will take an oath provide this service. Then there is accountability from the top down.

[John T Roberts]

I went through the intersection of Bellaire Dr. S. and Hulen today and I noticed the cameras were up. I guess they installed them late in the week because the last time I went through there, they were definitely missing.

[mariannt]

http://nl.newsbank.c...5250&p_docnum=2
Red-light cameras going up across Fort Worth
ALEX BRANCH Star-Telegram staff writer

FORT WORTH — Red-light cameras are being installed at seven intersections in Fort Worth and will become active Nov. 26, according to the city. Owners of cars that are photographed running red lights will receive mailed warnings through December. On Jan.1, the city will begin mailing real citations, city spokeswoman Janice Thompson-Burgess said.

"That will give us time to work through any bugs in the system," she said.

The fine is $75; late payment will cost an additional $25.

The City Council authorized the cameras in August. The intersections were selected from 30 analyzed for frequency of red-light violations. Two additional intersections on East Lancaster Avenue, which is also a state highway, will get cameras when the city gets approval from the Texas Department of Transportation, Thompson-Burgess said.

Red-light camera locations (above)

1. One camera, Eastchase Parkway and Meadowbrook Drive

2. Two cameras, East Long Avenue and Deen Road

3. One camera, South Hulen Street and Bellaire Drive South

4. Two cameras, McCart Avenue and Westcreek Drive

5. Two cameras, Bryant Irvin Road and West Vickery Boulevard

6. Two cameras, Eighth Avenue and Elizabeth Boulevard

7. Three cameras, North Beach Street and Western Center Boulevard

8. One camera, East Lancaster Avenue and Riverside Drive*

9. One camera, East Lancaster Avenue and Sandy Lane*

*Pending state approval

[Tony]

The Eight Ave location is great because you can't see past the stone entrance of Ryan Place and cars blow through that light all the time.

[Tony]

... also, the Hulen Street at Bellaire is a good spot because cars drive way, way too fast through that area and blow through the light going about 45 to 55 mph - that's a serious impact for a car turning off Bellaire (sp?)

[texastrill]

#'s 1 and 2 are understandable.But # 9,Lancaster and Sandy Lane,they just need to set the timing right with the Cooks Ln. light.The speed limit through there is 55 and it comes down to 45 right before the Sandy Ln. light,when your headed west.

[Phil Phillips]

Since Sandy Ln. doesn't cross E. Lancaster, I wonder how many collisions occur there. Seems like more of a revenue location than safety. Also, isn't Eashchase and Meadowbrook a stop sign for Meadowbrook traffic, not a stop light?

[texastrill]

Since Sandy Ln. doesn't cross E. Lancaster, I wonder how many collisions occur there. Seems like more of a revenue location than safety. Also, isn't Eashchase and Meadowbrook a stop sign for Meadowbrook traffic, not a stop light?

I think it would be for the intersection where the Wendy's and what I believe is a Big Daddy's liquor store,is at.Drive out of the Target and Ross shopping center and drive across Eastchase,that begins as Meadowbrook.

[Papaw]

I read somewhere that the infractions were reported to the independent private firm and that firm assembled all the data with pictures then turned them over to the PD where an official officer had to view each infraction with all the data and it is that officer that then decides if it is a violation or not. If it is, the ticket is mailed to the registered owner.
I see a lot of legal holes and they already are marketing a clear coating that can be bought over the internet and sprayed on the plates that makes the numbers invisible to the camera.

Here is an article about one of many manufactures that have been selling this stuff for years-------------

http://www.photobloc...?pname=washpost

I am sure this is mostly a revenue tactic as what is really needed is public education on the importance of defensive driving. I never cross any intersection without clearing to the left then the right, in that order and always wait a second after the light turns green while doing the same - then take off like a bat out of hell to make up for the lost time.

[David Love]

Just a shiny plastic covering over the plate does the job, don't think it's totally legal though, I read sometime back that it takes multiple coats of that aerosol stuff, the entire can, then after some exposure to the elements it has to be reapplied.

But who really plans to run a red light, if you run so many that you have to cloak your plates then I’d say you have some larger issues to deal with than a few tickets, perhaps insurance, hospital bills or law suits. I believe there are studies that have proven a few red light cameras in an area drastically cuts down on red light running at non camera intersections thereby reducing wrecks, injuries and fatalities.

As revenue generation goes I’m all for it, it’s not like pulling over a single car in the middle of an interstate of cars for speeding when every other car around the soon to be ticketed commuter was going just as fast or faster. At red lights you stop, period, if you don’t, you pay, simple as that.

[Papaw]

The point I was trying to make is - this is more of a revenue ploy than a safety tactic and what money is collected will be greatly offset by operational and legal cost (like fighting Mallory and the likes who are going to get them off anyway).
It was nearly a year ago that at this exact intersection -Bellaire/Hulen, that a couple was returning to their home from an evening of looking at Christmas decorations when a drunk ran a red light and tragically ended their lives.
Those cameras wouldn't have prevented this even if this offender had received numerous "camera citations" in the past.

I don"t know that much about the spray on, I was just pointing out that there will always be technology to counteract technology.

I don't think people plan to run red lights, instead, they are more concerned about a third party judging them as to where and how they reacted to an amber light.

[johnfwd]

I'm hoping the Texas House will be on board with this this time around (FWBP article below that Texas Senate has approved a measure banning red light cameras).  I've never been a fan of red light cameras, both for traffic safety and legal/constitutional reasons.  I think the installation of clocking of traffic signal lights now in use in Fort Worth (and elsewhere, I guess) is a better way to regulate traffic at intersections.

 

http://www.fortworth...7e1d646f07.html

[Austin55]

 

The purpose of this informal report is to provide information on the termination of the City of Fort Worth (City) Automated Red Light Camera Enforcement Program (the Program). The Transportation and Public Works Department (TPW) operates 58 cameras at 44 intersections. The Program improves intersection safety by incorporating engineering, education, and enforcement countermeasures to reduce the number of crashes attributable to running red lights. On July 31, 2007, the City Council approved M&C G-15801 to adopt an ordinance establishing the Program. The City entered into a contract with American Traffic Solutions, Inc. (ATS) for management services of the Program on August 15, 2007. Effective September 1, 2007, the Texas Legislature added Chapter 707 of the Texas Transportation Code to codify the ability for cities to operate photographic traffic signal enforcement programs. Attempts were made over the last several legislative sessions to ban photographic traffic signal enforcement programs, but were unsuccessful. This year, the Texas Legislature passed HB 1631 that prohibits cities from operating and issuing violations from a photographic traffic signal enforcement system and repeals the applicable state law. The bill included a savings clause to allow programs to continue unless the management contract, as it existed on May 7, 2019, included a provision allowing for immediate termination in the event of adverse legislative action. Like many cities, the City’s agreement with ATS included an adverse legislation clause, which will not allow the City’s Program to continue under HB 1631’s savings clause. Therefore, the City’s agreement with ATS will terminate immediately once HB 1631 becomes effective. The Governor has until June 16, 2019, to sign the bill, which will become effective immediately upon his signature, or veto the bill. If the Governor neither signs nor vetoes the bill within the allotted time, the bill becomes law. In this case, if the Governor does not sign HB 1631, the law takes effect June 16, 2019, because it received two-thirds vote from the House and the Senate and included the necessary language making it effective with such a vote. The City has alerted ATS that the agreement will terminate immediately upon the effective date of the bill. In FY2018, the Program received $9.6M in revenue, and after making a required payment to the State Trauma Fund of $2.2M and paying program expenses, the City was able to retain $3.6M in revenue to specifically fund traffic safety activities in the General Fund. These traffic safety activities include the maintenance and service of traffic signage, pavement markings, traffic signals, crosswalks, and intersection lighting. Beginning in FY2020, the City will determine how these necessary activities will be supported in the General Fund and at what level, without the offsetting revenue. Additionally, the Program currently funds 3 full time positions to administer the Program, 2 administrative positions and 1 appointed hearing officer. The termination of the Program will result in the Reduction in Force (RIF) of two positions, providing those employees a 30 day period to work with Human Resources to assist with internal and/or external employment placement.

 

Some details from pre council agenda on the new law

[Volare]

Good Riddance 

 

3 full time positions. Unbelievable.

[Austin55]

Bill was signed.

[Doohickie]

don't think it's totally legal though

 

Anything that obscures the information on the license plate is technically illegal.  It's not rigorously enforced.

[johnfwd]

The red light cameras in Fort Worth have been shuttered.  See FWBP report on Council action.

 

http://www.fortworth...543584b650.html

 

Yes, red light cameras may have saved lives, though I have not seen statistics.  Aside from constitutional issues, the red light camera program, in my opinion, was not fair to motorists. The camera was a chill on the ability of motorists to exercise discretion in instances where discretion was necessary to avoid an accident.  And the program minimized the police enforcement role.  

[Doohickie]

The camera was a chill on the ability of motorists to exercise discretion in instances where discretion was necessary to avoid an accident. 

 

I call BS on this.  If someone running a red light prevented an accident, it was an accident of their own making- approaching an intersection too fast, not being prepared to stop, etc.  Even if there's someone right on your tail and you're thinking the light has been green a long time, you can refrain from punching it to try to get through.  If you can't safely stop when the light turns red, you're going too damned fast.

 

The problem with red light cameras is that they represented 100% enforcement, and no one (yes NO ONE) follows traffic laws 100% of the time.  So where people would "stretch" the rules a little bit and go through a "pink" light, knowing opposing traffic won't immediately move, everyone tolerates that as acceptable.  Everyone but the red light camera. 

 

Every.  Single.  Person.  who got a red light ticket deserved it.  Okay, maybe there are a few exceptions, but there's video evidence for every single violation.  My son got enough of them (in my car) that I could see he deserved his.  And if I am going to get a ticket I'd rather get one from a camera because no points accumulate on your license.

[JBB]

I willingly paid both red light tickets I received for ^that^ reason.  One I clearly sped up to get through a yellow and the light turned as I reached the intersection.  The second was a right on red where I paused, but not long enough.  I considered appealing, but didn't think it was worth my time.  The 100% enforcement is also my problem with it.  Officer discretion in any other traffic stop is a key tool and I have a problem with removing that from a single violation.

[roverone]

It would not take much for the NTTA to look at the timing between license plate reads and just auto-send speed violations also.

 

I think the issue is more about when these things can or do start generating meaningful revenue, there are some corrupted people who will see the revenue as the goal, and the safety as the justification, instead of the other way around.

 

Although I don't have time to look it up right now, I'm almost certain that in some community it was proven that the duration of yellow was reduced to increase red light revenue -- that is the worst of the worst thing to do for safety.

 

I'm glad red light cameras are gone.

[Austin55]

Never trusted them either. Sad to see the revenue from them, which was going to good things, go away though. Perhaps higher fines for other moving violations.

[JBB]

Richland Hills was one of the cities that was caught tinkering with yellow light timing.  I believe they were caught through an open records request of traffic signal testing data.

[george84]

I got more than one for not coming to a complete stop on a right turn when the road was clear. Thats not safety, thats a money grab. Good riddance to the cameras.

[Doohickie]

But it's also the law, George.  At least right on red is allowed now.  When I was a kid, it was illegal.

[Dylan]

Red light cameras are great in concept (since running red lights is a bad thing). Unfortunately, they incentivize making yellow lights as short as legally possible (3 seconds).

 

On many high-speed thoroughfares, if you're ~3 seconds from an intersection, you won't have time to come to a complete stop before the line without skidding your tires.

 

And there's one city (perhaps Denton, but I can't find the story now) that was caught illegally shortening yellow lights to 2.9 seconds to increase their red light revenue.