1105 replies to this topic

[RD Milhollin]

Good to see follow-up on this, and that the T-F has a broad base of interests, not just the almighty dollar. The Stockyards is a cultural gem; amazing that so much of it has survived the years and the lure of cheap development. 

[Austin55]

Armour site sold. Hopefully the board can make preservation of the ruins a priority. 

 

http://fwbusinesspre...Stockyards.aspx

 

Edit- Just kidding, looks like this is just the former Armour site. 

 

 

This site would definitely be a great place for some old school 2 floor brick and wood buildings. 

[RD Milhollin]

City Council approves a TIF for the Stockyards area in Northside:

 

http://www.star-tele...es-default?rh=1

 

The boundaries are pretty large, all the way down to Northside Drive and east to I-35W; close to 1000 acres. The infrastructure in this area is pretty old, I am sure new sewers and storm drains are needed, and it would be great to see electrical and communications lines put underground in the area immediately around the stockyards historical district. The brick streets remaining near Main and Exchange need to be rebuilt a la Camp Bowie, and it would be good for pedestrians if brick paving (or even faux-brick paving) could be extended some distance north and south along Main to slow traffic.   

[djold1]

The most overlooked improvement is one that doesn't seem to be happening:  Getting the truck traffic off of North Main/Biz 281.  This will eventually have to be done if the Trinity Vision is to succeed and it should be done sooner rather than later..  

[RD Milhollin]

djold1, what recommendations would you make regarding how to accomplish this? The reconstruction of I-35W is going to leave the same traffic bottleneck north of 28th Street, and the independent truck operators are probably inclined not to use the pay lanes. Do trucks have an alternative? Should they? Where should it be? I agree the truck traffic is noisy, dangerous, and detracts from the attractiveness of the area, but the trucks do have to get from point to point. 

[JBB]

I see a surprising number of trucks and commercial vehicles using the Texpress lanes on 820 and 183 on a daily basis.

How many trucks are actually using N. Main as a through route? I suspect the majority of trucks on that street are traveling locally and that's hard to eliminate with any alternative.

[Austin55]

 

 

Cavileer said that developers hope to triple tourism in the Stockyards and provide a “Disneyland type” of entertainment around the clock.

 

 

http://www.star-tele...lines-fortworth

[John T Roberts]

I thought that the whole idea of this design group was to keep this area from becoming "Disneyland".

[JBB]

I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt and think he just poorly chose that term and was referring to the idea of providing a getaway, destination experience that appeals to the whole family.

[Doohickie]

I see a surprising number of trucks and commercial vehicles using the Texpress lanes on 820 and 183 on a daily basis.

 

Time is money.

[Austin55]

Land exchanging hands...

 

http://www.star-tele...le15266219.html

 

Hickman sold 14 more acres to Majestic, the California developers. 

Perhaps related to the mystery structure?

[renamerusk]

Very positive news.  Also, the developer is using the same architectural firm that is working on Lancaster's Pinnacle Place. ----

 

"Consultants Randy Gideon and Cassie King are working under Ibanez Architects in Fort Worth with the task force". FWST

[RD Milhollin]

I hope some of the actual pens are preserved so visitors can have some idea of what was actually going on there; what the big deal was. Having trendy housing right in the stockyards would have seemed ludicrous when I was growing up. When 'northers blew in the fall you could smell the cow pies and offal from the stockyards all the way down in South Hills. 

[RD Milhollin]

Stockyards business and building owners are accusing the city, developers, and hired consultants of acting in collusion to "spoon-feed" pre-made decisions to the Historic Stockyards Design district Task Force. 

 

http://www.star-tele...le17902304.html

[John T Roberts]

I attended the public hearing tonight on the Stockyards.  This is not my quote, but I can't remember who said it.  However, this sums up what will eventually go before the City Council regarding the new design guidelines.  "A property owner can demolish a historic building that is not locally designated, then build a new building with historic detailing, and that will be acceptable."

 

Back in July of 2014, the City Council approved form based codes for the Stockyards, yet only design guidelines will be sent to City Council.  I see a big problem here.  Nothing that will be presented to the Council will entail historic preservation. 

[JBB]

Nice. Imagine what Fort Worth might look like if its leadership that didn't follow the "all new development is good development" philosophy. It's depressing to read at one end of the day that the council stood up to QT to protect a neighborhood and then at the other read about them totally laying for another developer to the detriment of an entire historical district. Are the developers going to be good stewards of the area? Probably, but there's nothing whatsoever to assure that. Would they pick up their toys and go home if the council showed a little backbone? Probably not, but we'll never know. (I realize the council hasn't approved this, but if you think there wasn't a behind-the-scenes deal made here, you're bat guano nuts.)

[Austin55]

Which buildings in particular are at risk here? And which ones are protected?

[John T Roberts]

Austin, a map showing the locally designated buildings was requested at the meeting tonight.  This map would show the protected buildings and structures.  Anything not shaded on the map would be considered potentially "at risk".  Until the map is sent and posted on this board, the best way to determine which buildings are protected would be to go to the City of Fort Worth website and look at the zoning map.  You would have to turn on the historic designation layer.  "HC" and "HSE" overlays show the protected buildings.  "DD" is noted for Demolition Delay structures.  That only delays demolition for a maximum of 180 days.

[RD Milhollin]

"Don't Screw It Up"

 

http://www.star-tele...le21527154.html

 

Sounds more like mafia bosses than elected city council members...

 

I guess Sal was one of the council members "leaning" on the task force members to be soft on the developers. Looks like the task-force was set up to roll over and allow whatever the big-money players want to do. Does anyone else see "form-based codes" as being equal to "historic preservation"?

 

Perhaps someone (the mayor?) needs to call a time-out and allow the task force members to be briefed fully on what the WHOLE council wants, and what "historic preservation"actually means... Does preserving "real" historic buildings deserve a priority over designing and building "reasonable facsimiles thereof...?"

[JBB]

Perhaps someone (the mayor?) needs to call a time-out

You're assuming that the mayor isn't one of the council members leaning on the task force.

[John T Roberts]

This whole task force was set up to fail.  The process has been set up so that if the developer creates something that everyone hates, the Council can then blame the task force and the Council doesn't have to accept responsibility.  For the record, Historic Fort Worth has a highly esteemed architect and Northside native on the task force. 

 

Form based codes are not equal to "historic preservation".  For true preservation to take place, the highest, and best level, would be a City of Fort Worth Historic District.  Form based codes are not equal to historic preservation.  They actually are the next level down.  To regulate the area properly, both form based codes and a historic district would be the appropriate tools for the city.  They could work in tandem to keep the area authentic, and allow for compatible new development.  Design guidelines is the next step further down in the tool box for the area, and it appears that is the direction that is going to be taken. 

[RD Milhollin]

 

Perhaps someone (the mayor?) needs to call a time-out

You're assuming that the mayor isn't one of the council members leaning on the task force.

 

 Oops!

[John T Roberts]

The Task Force meetings are open to the public and I thought that I would post all of the upcoming meeting dates here on the forum.  The locations of these meetings have not been set, but they are held somewhere in the Stockyards.

 

Task Force Meetings, 3:00 pm

June 17

July 14

July 29

August 19

August 26

 

The Task Force meetings are open to the public.

 

Public Meetings, 6:00 pm

July 22

August 19

[youngalum]

Good lord this is going to be talked to death till nothing gets done.  All over buildings that are falling down or former slaughter houses.

[John T Roberts]

Youngalum, what do think they should do up there?  Do you think Majestic should be given carte blanche?

[youngalum]

I appreciate Historical groups wanting to influence progress to get things done they see as right.  What I don't appreciate is hysterical folks on those groups who see any old dilapidated building as the holy grail that must not be touched or torn down--as it decays into oblivion over the merits of a ornate part of the building as if the only thing that matters.

 

Just like the old smoke stacks near downtown, their usefulness had long since past and arguing over decaying structures is maddening to me in the face of progress. 

 

What is being proposed is a huge project that will save the stockyards and make it even more valuable to the city.  Some folks don't like change and it being old means it is something special.  When in reality it is just an old worn down building that if it was so valuable it would have already been refurbished.  Progress and change is coming either with these groups consent or thru kicking and screaming realization that the developers have the city and the power brokers support and it is just inevitable.

[JBB]

You realize that the current task force has almost nothing to do with "old" buildings, right? It's about making sure the new buildings fit the character of the district. I agree that some people on both sides of this issue often don't see the forest for the trees, but I also don't see a tilt-wall strip mall with a Dollar Tree and Wal Mart saving the Stockyards or raising its value.

[Jeriat]

Yeah. I'm all for keeping the character of the neighborhood and some historic structures, but we all know that there are some buildings that just CAN'T and shouldn't be saved due to its structure or other issues.

One building on that strip I have a problem with is The New Isis theater. I would be open to what happens to it either way. If they save it, make it something useful, like a concert hall. I know Billy Bob's exists, but how about Isis being used for a wider variety of music acts/performers? I guess like a House of Blues type.

If they demo it, hey, it had its day. The only way I'd have a problem with it being demolished is if they replace it with a surface lot.

Crazy, out of the box idea for the theater: make it a subway station... If we had a subway.
Of course, that idea is so far away from happening, you can't even see it with a telescope.

[John T Roberts]

I'm going to provide the forum some public information and I will allow you all to listen and read the information to form your own opinions.

 

The City Council gave the Task Force the charge to preserve the Stockyards.  They also gave the Task Force the charge to develop form based codes.  Below is a link to the City Council Meeting where this was approved.

 

http://fortworthgov....=5&clip_id=2211

 

However, things have changed and the task force is now not dealing with Historic Preservation and they are only working on design guidelines.  JBB your statement above is correct.  Below is a summary of the Meeting from 5-20-15:

 

http://www.fortworth...ing-Summary.pdf

 

Here is the PowerPoint Presentation shown at that meeting:

 

http://www.fortworth...tion-052015.pdf

 

One of the slides in the presentation shows the buildings that are legally protected against demolition as compared to the historic structures that are not.

[John T Roberts]

I said that I was going to try to refrain from making comments on what is happening, but I have provided three different documents relating to the Stockyards, and no one has posted their own interpretations or thoughts.  I thought that there would have been some response.  Does anyone care, or do most of you feel that the Stockyards are in good hands with the current structure?

[johnfwd]

I reviewed some of the historical preservation design parameters you presented above.  Not being an expert in these matters, I'll let others comment on the specifics.  But, I have changed my mind about historical preservation of the Stockyards.  Previously I favored some modernization (because generally I support economic development).   But I've made recent visits to the Stockyards and have come to appreciate this area as emblematic of Fort Worth's cowboy heritage.  What I do wish is that the City Council would have a long-term vision of what "north Fort Worth" is going to look like when the TRV is fully developed commercially and residentially. I say this because TRV, in my view, could be a commercial buttress (including high-rise structures) between downtown proper and the farther north Stockyards area.  This will take years, but it's going to happen eventually.

 

Here's my vision of the circa 2025 future:  I say historically preserve the Stockyards.  Tourists who like modern commercial retail shops, restaurants, hotels, may be high-rise office and residential condominiums, and river walks, will enjoy all this in the Trinity Uptown area.  Then they can go further north to tour the Stockyards, and enjoy a return to the 19th century.

[renamerusk]

.....Not being an expert in these matters, I'll let others comment on the specifics...visits to the Stockyards [I] have come to appreciate this area as emblematic of Fort Worth's cowboy heritage.....

 

I am comfortable taking this approach.   Whenever I am in the Stockyards, I get a feeling that can not really be replicated any where else in North Texas. I admit that I am relying heavily on HFW & JTR being a watchdogs who will alert this Forum and the public at large when a decisive crossroad is at hand.  I need further convincing of the need for massive economic development in this uniquely historical district.

[youngalum]

Who said anything about Dollar Tree coming in there?  There is already places like that just up the street anyway.  My only point is that a group made up of basically historical groups/types on the committee who want to "keep the character of the place" intact is fine with me.  The concern that I get is that the same folks talk a good game until the idea of tearing down structures that do not work for the proposals.  The next step is to throw the baby out with the bath water approach as typical happens in deals like this because it is historical, yet dilapidated and falling down.  But, by goodness we must keep it because it has character.

[JBB]

I'm the one that said that about Dollar Tree. My point was that, without code in place, there's nothing to stop tilt-wall, speed fab-crete strip malls from happening.

Can you name an example of the scenario you've laid out happening in Fort Worth? Historic preservation standing in the way of progress?

[John T Roberts]

The next Stockyards Task Force Meeting's location has been set.  It is this Wednesday, June 17, 3:00 pm, at the Texas Cowboy Hall of Fame, 128 E. Exchange Avenue. Here's a link to the agenda: http://fortworthtexa...dsTaskForce.pdf

[johnfwd]

An article by Martha Heller of the Fort Worth Business Press illuminates the issue of funding economic development or earmarking monies for structure maintenance.  The choice impinges on the particular source of funding, at least that's what I concluded from the article.  Tax Increment Financing (TIF) can only be used to further economic development, not prevent historical structures from deteriorating.  Yet, as we know, the City Council's desire to work with Stockyards' property owners and historic preservation advocates at the same time the governing body is dealing with TIF in connection with the Hickman-Majestic proposal is what led to creation of this task force.

 

http://www.fortworth...2d947f9ff9.html

[John T Roberts]

The National Trust for Historic Preservation has released America's 2015 Eleven Most Endangered Historic Places.  The Fort Worth Stock Yards made this year's list.  This listing raises national awareness of our threatened properties.  It is my understanding that this is the first time that anything from Fort Worth made the list.  Hundreds of historic places are nominated each year and the reason the Stock Yards made the list was due to the large new development pressuring existing structures.  Below is a link to the Official Site of the National Trust's 11 Most Endangered List:

 

http://www.preservat...d/#.VYoto0aaRzw

 

The Fort Worth Star-Telegram has a very extensive article and video starring yours truly on their website.  Sandra Baker is the reporter.  She covers most of the preservation stories in the city.

 

http://www.star-tele...le25365943.html

[elpingüino]

John's on the front page too:

[johnfwd]

Great article and video!  Here's a suggestion:  Why not block off the entire Stockyards from motor vehicle traffic.  Make it an historic plaza for pedestrian traffic only.  Except maybe for streetcar or other type tram access going from downtown through the Trinity Uptown area and into the Stockyards and back.  As it is, the Stockyards is a traffic and parking congested area, and that is a detraction, in my view.

[youngalum]

And so it begins--designation of worn out dilapidated and failing down buildings that are abandoned for years/decades over progress and prosperity.

[JBB]

This isn't a designation at all. It's literally as meaningless as Historic Fort Worth's identification of endangered properties.

Again, I ask:

Can you name an example of the scenario you've laid out happening in Fort Worth? Historic preservation standing in the way of progress?

[Volare]

Wooo Hooo, Fort Worth must be so proud, making a prestigious National List! Take that Dallas!!!

[John T Roberts]

JBB is correct.  Being on the National Trust's Most Endangered List is not a designation.  Organizations like the National Trust and Historic Fort Worth put out these lists to raise awareness of endangered properties.  The Stock Yards will probably be the highest topic of discussion of the Forum Lunch on Friday, June 26th at 11:45 AM at Thistle Hill.  I'm also thinking about setting up a Fort Worth Forum Tour of the Stock Yards coming up in the near future.  We could either do it on a weekend, or since the daylight hours are long, we could do it one evening after work.  I also have off Friday, July 3rd, so that is another day we might do a tour.

[JBB]

And I'm sorry if it looked like I was diminishing the importance of the awareness raised by the National Trust and HFW lists. I was just pointing out that these designation don't carry any weight in the way of holding up development (legally).

[John T Roberts]

I don't think you were diminishing the importance.  Again here, you are correct.  Being on an endangered list does not legally hold up anything.  It is merely ceremonial.   

[youngalum]

So why are the meetings over this issue contentious when any historical buildings are brought up? 

 

JBB--how about the burned out market on I-30/cherry street.  The state and federal government had to work around that building when they wanted it torn down for the freeway.  It stands today abandoned and burned.

[JBB]

The building itself didn't burn, just the stalls in the parking lot. Austin posted pics of the non-burned interior just a couple of months ago. And this is a pretty poor example since the freeway managed to get rebuilt in spite of it. That sounds like progress to me. So I ask again, can you name of an example where preservation stood in the way of progress in Fort Worth?

[renamerusk]

.......  Organizations like the National Trust and Historic Fort Worth put out these lists to raise awareness of endangered properties. ......

 

 

So why are the meetings over this issue contentious when any historical buildings are brought up? 

 

 

Great point JTR; and Youngalum - "Contentious, how so?"

[Volare]

“We must respect and honor its past and balance the individual property rights in ways that ensure that we will have this true Fort Worth gem for generations to come.” - Mayor Betsy Price

 

With quotes like this from our "leader" anyone who thinks the T&P Warehouse is going to be fixed anytime soon is kidding themselves.

Read more here: http://www.star-tele...l#storylink=cpy

[John T Roberts]

Most of you don't even realize this, but Historic Preservation is very complex.  The issue of the Stock Yards and the issue of the Public Market are actually different preservation situations.  The Public Market Building falls under the National Historic Preservation Act of 1966.  Boiling a Federal Law down to just a brief description is difficult, but that act deals with any project that has Federal funds.  The highways that were built around the Market were funded with Federal money and that kicked in that law.  When I-30 was relocated the Market was already designated a Recorded Texas Historical Landmark.  The money provided by the U.S. Government for the freeway and the state level designation of the building forced a design to either save the building, or provide mitigation from demolishing it.  It also kicks in public hearings on the loss of historic structures.  All of that was done, and the building was saved. 

 

The Stock Yards are different.  This is a private developer doing private work, and I don't think anything involved with this project is going to kick in the Preservation Act.  It might trigger some other Federal process, but I don't think that will occur.  Federal intervention can occur when a project affects areas that are under Federal control, like the waterways.  This happened with the original design of the Tarrant County College Trinity River East Campus.

 

As for the Task Force Meetings, I don't think they have been contentious, but quite a few of the property owners have become frustrated.  Others involved have become frustrated, also.  The reason is that the Task Force's directive has not been what the City Council actually voted and approved about one year ago.  They are working on Design Guidelines for new construction, not preservation, and not the Form Based Codes that was approved by the City Council.  Many of the property owners want preservation, and the Task Force is not working on that aspect.  I am attending as many of these meetings as I can.  What I can see is a process that is probably set up to fail.

 

Youngalum, your comments have spurred me to offer up a Forum Tour of the Stock Yards.  I would highly urge you to attend.  If you will provide us the times that you are free, I will work to set up this tour when you can attend.  If it works out that we have the tour and you cannot attend, then I would be more than happy to walk the area on a private tour with you.