163 replies to this topic

[John T Roberts]

I probably should have started this thread last night when I had more time to think about what I was going to write and how I was going to pose this question.  Are enclosed shopping malls dying?  If so, will there be any left in Tarrant County?  Will there be any left on the Dallas side of things?  What will replace them?  Is the "Lifestyle Center" the answer?  Will brick and mortar stores go away all together?  Will online shopping be the only way to purchase goods that were found in a mall?  When the malls die, how would you redevelop the property? I also want to challenge everyone to visit all of the enclosed malls in Tarrant County to really give an experienced answer.  I think visiting these malls on a weekend would be the best time to do it.  However, I do realize that everyone has busy schedules.  Please post your comments here.

[Doohickie]

Reference material:  This site documents three Dead Malls in Tarrant County.

[Doohickie]

My take is this:  Malls are changing.  They will need to evolve in the age of online buying, but there is value in being able to see merchandise before buying it.  Clothes sizing, quality assessment, being able to pick things up and turn them over in your hands, etc., are all provide value.  The trick will become how to get customers to pay for that value.

 

Some malls will go out of business for sure.  Others will reinvent themselves along the lines that have been mentioned for Ridgmar Mall- a mix of housing with retail targeted to support the people that live there.  It almost seems fitting that the generation that grew up with the shopping mall will retire into them.  There are clearly advantages to living in a "closed environment," especially if you're old/infirm, but still want to maintain some level of activity.  I can see many malls converted into senior housing with pharmacies, doctors offices, beauty parlors and restaurants contained under the same roof.  Heck, put the seniors on a meal plan like college students; they can eat at Chili's or Applebees or whatever other restaurants that are in the mall.  The restaurants may be enticed if there's a residential population right in the mall.

 

I think there will be other malls that survive just as they are.  Northeast Mall and Hulen Mall have a shot at that.

 

Developers who successfully maintain malls will be copied.  Those who repurpose them successfully will also be copied.  And yeah, some malls will be razed and redevloped from the ground up.

[Jeriat]

Reference material:  This site documents three Dead Malls in Tarrant County.

 

I see Ridgmar joining that list within then next decade...

[JBB]

I'm still dumbfounded as to why anyone would say that. It was left for dead when the base closed the first time and it bounced back. It was left for dead before the Rave/Old Navy renovation and it bounced back. It sits in the middle of a booming retail pocket and is a 10 minute drive from an area that people seem to think is going to explode with residential growth in the next 5 years. I'm betting on another bounce back. Granted, it may look a little different, but it won't go away.

Edit: Reading through that after I wrote, yes, I can see why Ridgmar looks dead. Just pointing out that it's looked that way more than once and didn't die.

[Doohickie]

Just pointing out that it's looked that way more than once and didn't die.

 

ZOMBIE MALL.

[johnfwd]

This Los Angeles-based article in Fort Worth Business was published about a month ago.  The crux is that future shopping malls may host medical clinics.  I'm not sure this is really a new development in that medical clinics have popped up in shopping centers in Fort Worth and other cities across the country.  Anyone know if our local malls have any medical clinics?

 

Is the health care industry hitching its horse to a dry trough, or do they believe there's a market for patients inside a mall? 

 

http://www.fortworth...1bc98bc93d.html

[Austin55]

Re: Dead Malls in Tarrant County - Did Tandy count or was it not exactly considered a mall? Seems like it's urban setting made it fairly different from things like Six Flags Mall,

[Doohickie]

This Los Angeles-based article in Fort Worth Business was published about a month ago.  The crux is that future shopping malls may host medical clinics.  I'm not sure this is really a new development in that medical clinics have popped up in shopping centers in Fort Worth and other cities across the country.  Anyone know if our local malls have any medical clinics?

 

Is the health care industry hitching its horse to a dry trough, or do they believe there's a market for patients inside a mall? 

 

http://www.fortworth...1bc98bc93d.html

 

Appletree Business Park in my hometown of Cheektowaga, NY, (an aging first ring suburb of Buffalo) is a former mall.  Interesting mix of tenants including medical, utilities, insurance, daycare, and a few retail shops.

 

The site never really established itself as a mall (not big enough to compete with another nearby mall) and was transformed into an office park a long time ago (20-30 years).

 

Re: Dead Malls in Tarrant County - Did Tandy count or was it not exactly considered a mall? Seems like it's urban setting made it fairly different from things like Six Flags Mall,

 

No anchors, so not really a mall in my mind.

[Austin55]

That makes sense. 


Re: Medical and malls, it's interesting that the first phase of Clearfork is a hospital. Well planned perhaps?

[eastfwther]

 

This Los Angeles-based article in Fort Worth Business was published about a month ago.  The crux is that future shopping malls may host medical clinics.  I'm not sure this is really a new development in that medical clinics have popped up in shopping centers in Fort Worth and other cities across the country.  Anyone know if our local malls have any medical clinics?

 

Is the health care industry hitching its horse to a dry trough, or do they believe there's a market for patients inside a mall? 

 

http://www.fortworth...1bc98bc93d.html

 

Appletree Business Park in my hometown of Cheektowaga, NY, (an aging first ring suburb of Buffalo) is a former mall.  Interesting mix of tenants including medical, utilities, insurance, daycare, and a few retail shops.

 

The site never really established itself as a mall (not big enough to compete with another nearby mall) and was transformed into an office park a long time ago (20-30 years).

 

Re: Dead Malls in Tarrant County - Did Tandy count or was it not exactly considered a mall? Seems like it's urban setting made it fairly different from things like Six Flags Mall,

 

No anchors, so not really a mall in my mind.

 

I was going to say the same thing.  If you take out the stores and add mostly medical facilities and office space, it's not really a mall any longer.

[eastfwther]

I'm still dumbfounded as to why anyone would say that. It was left for dead when the base closed the first time and it bounced back. It was left for dead before the Rave/Old Navy renovation and it bounced back. It sits in the middle of a booming retail pocket and is a 10 minute drive from an area that people seem to think is going to explode with residential growth in the next 5 years. I'm betting on another bounce back. Granted, it may look a little different, but it won't go away.

Edit: Reading through that after I wrote, yes, I can see why Ridgmar looks dead. Just pointing out that it's looked that way more than once and didn't die.

Repeatedly dying and bouncing back, if anything, makes this mall sound unstable. Eventually, you're not going to bounce back.  The sad thing about Ridgmar is that it has started to lose anchors.  That's always death for a mall.

[Doohickie]

The sad thing about Ridgmar is that it has started to lose anchors.  That's always death for a mall.

Only if they stay empty. There's always some level of turnover, like when Wards left Hulen and was replaced by Sears.

[eastfwther]

 

The sad thing about Ridgmar is that it has started to lose anchors.  That's always death for a mall.

Only if they stay empty. There's always some level of turnover, like when Wards left Hulen and was replaced by Sears.

 

Yep, they replaced a dead retailer with a dying one.

[jefffwd]

Look at the Galleria in Dallas...  At one time they had three anchors (macy*s, Marshall Field and Saks).  Now look what they are left with a macy*s, belk (which is basically a three story Kohl's with name brand cosmetics and cologne) and the last store is an Old Navy and Gap. 

[John T Roberts]

Jefffwd, Nordstrom opened in the Galleria in 1996 and I think they are still open.  Still, I can see your point in that the anchors of the Galleria are not as high end as they were in earlier days at the mall.

[jefffwd]

You are correct sir...  I totally forgot about Nordstrom.  I wonder if Dallas Midtown will actually come to fruition as imagined...  Replacing what's left of Valley View seems like a good idea but I wonder if the funding will actually come through?  Sadly, I have a feeling that Ridgmar is going to end up going the way of Prestonwood. 

[John T Roberts]

There was a shooting tonight at the Parks Mall in Arlington.

[hannerhan]

More fascinating to me than the dying malls (which I believe will eventually be most of them) is the few successful malls that have bucked the trend.  Northpark (Dallas) and The Galleria (Houston) are the two notable Texas examples.  Clearly there is room in these major cities for ONE premier mall, and these two have locked up that spot in their respective cities.  It's impossible to overstate the importance of the vision that the family who owns Northpark has executed over the decades.  From the art to the architecture to the tenants which they are constantly rotating, you just have to sit back and admire how brilliant they have been.

[johnfwd]

Interesting highlight in Fort Worth Business on J.C. Penny stores emerging as a survivor in malls as Sears and Macy's leave. To the victor go the spoils, if the spoils are still worth having. 

 

http://www.fortworth...e3f11400cc.html

[Doohickie]

Meanwhile, in Buffalo... World's biggest design firm hired to remake Eastern Hills as town center.

 

Eastern Hills Mall was the biggest mall in the Buffalo area when I was a kid.

[txbornviking]

Meanwhile, in Buffalo... World's biggest design firm hired to remake Eastern Hills as town center.

 

Eastern Hills Mall was the biggest mall in the Buffalo area when I was a kid.

 

I wish them luck. 

 

There are quite a few excellent & successful "re-imaginings" of dying malls around the US. I'd certainly love to see similar ambitious actually come to fruition around Ridgmar.

[John T Roberts]

I'm usually not a pessimist, but I doubt that will happen at Ridgmar.  I think its days are over, unless it is totally demolished and another use is put on the land.  They only have one viable anchor right now, and that is JCPenney.  They have one foot in the grave as a company right now, so if Penney's goes out of business, they won't have any viable anchors. 

[johnfwd]

I do not understand why Ridgmar Mall is failing, whereas Hulen Mall and Northeast Mall appear to be thriving.  I agree that the loss of a big anchor store will likely kill it.  But for some additional insight, I read the article about re-designing Eastern Hills Mall in Clarence, NY, into a "town center" (Post 22 above).  If you re-design the mall, customers will come back?  Is a town center, whatever that is, better than a mall?  I'm reminded of the "Field of Dreams" saying, "If you build it they will come."

 

Beginning in the 1960s, the enclosed multi-store malls started to replace the sprawling store-front shopping centers.  Seemed like a good idea.  You could park your car in a large parking lot and get out of the rain or cold, spend a whole day going from store to store.  You could eat there in the food courts or in a large restaurant inside.  You could be entertained and find other leisure things to see and do in the common area.  Often a mall was located far enough away from other commercial businesses--a good example being the malls that were geographically separated by freeways in Kansas City in the 1970s. 

 

But the mall concept of the 1960s and 70s is still alive around here.  Hulen and Northeast malls have been mentioned.  And the concept of a large enclosure apparently still makes sense so long as it's one business instead of many.   Examples of that in our area are Tanger Outlet Mall and Nebraska Furniture Mart

 

If must be a design issue, not a location problem. Just north of Ridmar Mall, the Westworth Boulevard commercial developments appear to be doing well.

[renamerusk]

 

 

Unless the City is content with allowing the Ridgmar Complex's (RC) future to remain uncertain,  I disagree with any notion and so should the City that developing RC into a entertainment/sport complex is a pipe dream or a fantasy.

 

Already, there is an aquarium, cinema and food courts.  Using the Fort Worth Sports Authority to construct a soccer stadium which could be use for high school, college and professional events can bring out of town visitors to the City and also provide a sporting venue for the residents of Fort Worth/Parker County.

 

All that aside, RC is Fort Worth's problem and the City should do something to make it productive to the local economy going forward.

 

 

 

I'm usually not a pessimist, but I doubt that will happen at Ridgmar.  I think its days are over, unless it is totally demolished and another use is put on the land.  They only have one viable anchor right now, and that is JCPenney.  They have one foot in the grave as a company right now, so if Penney's goes out of business, they won't have any viable anchors. 

 

 I repeat that a hybrid entertainment/sport venue could be a solution for Ridgmar Complex.  Other communities in North Texas are doing things to bring life back to their malls of the 80's.  RC is an excellent opportunity that is in a desirable part of the City.  It can be revived with an impetus from the Fort Worth Sports Authority.

[Doohickie]

Beginning in the 1960s, the enclosed multi-store malls started to replace the sprawling store-front shopping centers.  Seemed like a good idea. 

It seemed like a great idea in Buffalo when I was growing up, especially in the winter time!

 

Thruway Plaza was a premier mid-century shopping center near my parents' home.  I can remember going there when it was an open air plaza.  Then sometime around 1970 or so they put a roof over the main concourse and turned it into an enclosed shopping mall.  It did well for several years but in the 1990s a larger regional mall was built about a mile away and it wasn't long before the whole thing closed down, was leveled, and rebuilt into a Super Walmart and Home Depot (not unlike the area just north of Ridgmar along 183).

 

Not sure what point I'm trying to make, other than your post triggered a memory.

[JBB]

I do not understand why Ridgmar Mall is failing, whereas Hulen Mall and Northeast Mall appear to be thriving.

Looking back at the history of Ridgmar, I think its struggles are rooted in the base closure and the decline of the neighborhoods between the base and 820. The original decline and major remodel of the mall happened post base closure and it has just never seemed to weather the ups and downs of the economy and the changing retail landscape very well. Things were already looking down, but the departure of Neiman Marcus really pushed the current plunge over the edge. I'm not ready to bury Ridgmar just yet. If Walsh Ranch pans out as planned, the right owner with the right plan could give it new life, but I doubt it looks anything like the traditional enclosed mall that's been there.

[ramjet]

I'm generally not a fan of comparing Fort Worth to Austin, they are such different cities, but the old regional Highland Mall here has been beautifully repurposed into a mixed use complex including a campus of the local community college, ACC.

 

http://highlandatx.com/

 

The location of Ridgmar Mall is so keen as JBB pointed out - so near Walsh, the military base, and the neighborhoods of west Fort Worth, I can't see it remaining a dead mall for much longer.

[txbornviking]

The Highland Mall location is adjacent to a Cap Metro rail station. Properly leveraged, this could be a great asset for its redevelopment.

 

[Doohickie]

I think that might be the mall we stopped at during a band trip (my kids were in HS band) to eat at the food court... 10 or more years ago.... and the mall was closed.  If that's it, it's good to see it was repurposed.

[hannerhan]

More fascinating to me than the dying malls (which I believe will eventually be most of them) is the few successful malls that have bucked the trend.  Northpark (Dallas) and The Galleria (Houston) are the two notable Texas examples.  Clearly there is room in these major cities for ONE premier mall, and these two have locked up that spot in their respective cities.  It's impossible to overstate the importance of the vision that the family who owns Northpark has executed over the decades.  From the art to the architecture to the tenants which they are constantly rotating, you just have to sit back and admire how brilliant they have been.

 

Another piece of evidence proving that Northpark is the king:

https://www.dallasne...e-coming-dallas

[txbornviking]

Maybe Ridgmar should've been pitched for HQ2?
(i kid, i kid)

https://www.wsj.com/...1C31D69127.html

[Austin55]

Though I think the Ridgmar site could be great spot for housing, retail or office, it's location near the JRB flight path might make a warehouse use.

[txbornviking]

Though I think the Ridgmar site could be great spot for housing, retail or office, it's location near the JRB flight path might make a warehouse use.

 

I agree that as a walkable/people-first housing/retail/office nexus, It really could be a very interesting project

[ramjet]

 

More fascinating to me than the dying malls (which I believe will eventually be most of them) is the few successful malls that have bucked the trend.  Northpark (Dallas) and The Galleria (Houston) are the two notable Texas examples.  Clearly there is room in these major cities for ONE premier mall, and these two have locked up that spot in their respective cities.  It's impossible to overstate the importance of the vision that the family who owns Northpark has executed over the decades.  From the art to the architecture to the tenants which they are constantly rotating, you just have to sit back and admire how brilliant they have been.

 

Another piece of evidence proving that Northpark is the king:

https://www.dallasne...e-coming-dallas

 

 

I've been to the Eataly in the Financial District in New York.  It's an otherworldly paradise if you're a foodie.  It's like Central Market and Disney Land had a baby.

[renamerusk]

Though I think the Ridgmar site could be great spot for housing, retail or office, it's location near the JRB flight path might make a warehouse use.

 

 Aside from there being very little if associative relationship of JRB = Warehouse Use, factually, the site lacks any of the logistical infrastructure, such as rail and industrial air support that would make the site viable for warehousing.  Although, if by some miraculous turn of events, a Ridgmar Warehousing District would solidify our burgeoning designation as "Fort Warehouse".

 

I hope that the proposed plans for Ridgmar to be redeveloped into a housing and entertainment complex, like the current transformation of Valley View/Dallas,  will eventually be realized.  Replicating  a Texas Live! complex for the western portion of Tarrant County that already includes an aquarium, water park, a IMAX theater complex and perhaps ideally a soccer stadium would make Ridgmar a week end destination.

 

https://www.bisnow.c...velopment-75314

[John T Roberts]

I'm bringing some news that is no surprise to this forum.  Sears has announced they will be closing the Northeast Mall store.  With this closing, another store in Texas will join it in shutting their doors.  For those of you who have access, the Dallas Morning News is reporting the story.  Below is the link to it:

 

https://www.dallasne...uding-2-intexas

[John T Roberts]

Late to the game in reporting this is the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.  Below is a link to their story, if you have access to the article.  It probably should go in the "Surrounding Cities" forum, but I couldn't find a thread on Northeast Mall specifically. 

 

https://www.star-tel...e233620042.html

[ACE]

I'm not sure that sear's unique cass of corporate negligence and mismanagement is going to spell doom to northeast mall in this case. I was in Macy's this week though and the smell of rot and mildew was strong, so I guess their ac is going. Anyway I was also shocked at the distinctly Sears-like feeling of emptiness of it on a busy Friday evening.

It was not that many years ago that Macy's was the department store to shop at, and now they've been closing hundreds of stores, and their existing ones feel like ghost towns. Yet somehow Dillards remains busy and solvent.

[John T Roberts]

I read an article recently that Macy*s is not far behind JCPenney and Sears.  Unless things change, Sears will close first, then JCPenney, and if nothing changes, Macy*s last. 

[johnfwd]

Why are these major department stores losing business?  It can't be they're victims of mall-phobia, could it?  Must be some other reason.

[Doohickie]

Amazon.com.

[John T Roberts]

It was reported today that Sears may not have enough cash to go through Chapter 11 Bankruptcy.  That would force it into Chapter 7, which would mean a total shut down of operations.

 

I agree with Doohickie.  I think Amazon.com and not adapting with the times has led to this.  Also, if Macy*s doesn't make it as it currently operates, then I would suggest this might spell doom for the only Sanger-Harris mural left on an open store location.  I also would suggest that Macy*s should try to do whatever it takes to at least keep the 34th Street Flagship Store in Manhattan open.  That didn't happen for Lord & Taylor and that iconic landmark is no longer a store.

[beverlyb]

About ten years ago, I used to go to the mall every weekend either on Saturday after the Y or Sunday after church. I haven't been inside a mall to shop in at least two years. I have been in Macy's to make a return.

Here are my reasons, in no particular order:

 

1. Rowdy teenagers
2. Online shopping is easier
3. A realization that I have too much stuff.
4. Being approached by strangers in the parking lot. However, this can happen at the grocery store lot too.
5. Trying to stay out of debt.

[bgh01]

Growing up in the 80s and 90s, I remember that malls had an enormous variety of stores. Every mall had several bookstores, record stores, maybe a pet shop, gift shops, toy stores, arcades, etc. Many of these stores have vanished- some due to the emergence of the digital world, some due to the changing economy. Many of the chains that I remember from my childhood are gone - B. Dalton Bookstores, Waldenbooks, Service Merchandise, Montgomery Ward, K.B.Toys are just a few.

 

And stores seemed to have a much wider variety of merchandise. If one store didn't suit your style or price range, another one would.

 

Now, it seems like the only things left in the malls are clothing and shoe stores, and they all carry virtually the same styles and poor quality. 

[Austin55]

Forever 21 has filed for bankruptcy. The stores dependence on the mall model played a big part.

 

https://www.nbcnews....ashion-n1060451

[Jeriat]

https://www.youtube....h?v=w63Xq182A-Q

[Doohickie]

https://www.youtube....h?v=w63Xq182A-Q

 

TL;DR:  Overweight guy doesn't like walking in the heat.

[txbornviking]

So most these "lifestyle centers" as discussed in reality seem no different than the enclosed malls. Their layout is the same they simply have no roof over the connective tissue of the pedestrian space.

 

Both design types are surrounded by moats of surface parking, disconnected from a larger urban fabric, and ringed by highways and/or stroads.

 

SanTan Village, Tempe Marketplace, the Tangier Outlets in Far North Ft. Worth. Maybe I'm missing something but they dont honestly seem to be presenting anything new.

 

I think the Southlake Town Village and the still under construction Trophy Club Town Center seem as if they are trying to define a better model for reinventing the mall and/or strip center.

 

I don't think the enclosed mall is dying so much as perhaps they had been overbuilt in numbers and there's some market correction taking place but certainly a market desire for new options as well.

[johnfwd]

So most these "lifestyle centers" as discussed in reality seem no different than the enclosed malls. Their layout is the same they simply have no roof over the connective tissue of the pedestrian space.

 

Both design types are surrounded by moats of surface parking, disconnected from a larger urban fabric, and ringed by highways and/or stroads.

 

SanTan Village, Tempe Marketplace, the Tangier Outlets in Far North Ft. Worth. Maybe I'm missing something but they dont honestly seem to be presenting anything new.

 

I think the Southlake Town Village and the still under construction Trophy Club Town Center seem as if they are trying to define a better model for reinventing the mall and/or strip center.

 

I don't think the enclosed mall is dying so much as perhaps they had been overbuilt in numbers and there's some market correction taking place but certainly a market desire for new options as well.

Yes there is a market correction coming, as you surmise.  Seems like the retail market is currently in trouble, with stores closing and people being laid off.  Here's an article on the CNN website about this.  "Retail apocalypse" may be hyperbole but many economists believe the retail industry will be especially hit if we have a recession next year.

 

https://www.msn.com/...ocid=spartandhp