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Streetcar Circulator Update


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#351 youngalum

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 03:06 PM

The local GOP polticians



#352 Jeriat

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 03:33 PM

You've gotta be kidding me... 


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#353 AndyN

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 03:34 PM

Mr. Young, there is a poltics subforum if you wish to cast aspersions about political parties you take issue with. It has absolutely nothing to do with either party.


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#354 Jeriat

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:04 PM

So what's the deal? Is it just a miscommunicationissue or what?


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#355 renamerusk

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:35 PM

A political hitch has developed. Announcement delayed until late spring, I would guess.

 

 With all of what there is to be excited about, I had forgotten about your news.  Glad to see that you are keeping your eyes and ears open to this developing story.  Late spring....I can hardly wait.



#356 Austin55

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 05:38 PM

The parking issues are back.  Check out this article in the FW Weekly:

 

https://www.fwweekly...allel-universe/

 


John T Roberts, on 13 Jan 2017 - 4:00 PM, said:
The Tower Garage still in dispute with TIF over the parking.  Below is a link to the Fort Worth Business article:
 

 

 

 

It seems businesses in dense areas around Magnolia, W7th, and downtown are seemingly relying on majority of customers getting to the location by car, but there is less and less space to put those cars. You can build more garages, but there comes a point where the garages hold more than the roads can handle (not to mention garages are expensive, could be better serve other uses, and are ugly). The only way I see these businesses are going to be able to sustain a high level of customers is either A) More density of residents or B) other forms of transportation. Bikes, busses, and streetcars. It really should be time that business owners start pushing the city to start working on a streetcar (or atleast better bus routes) in these neighborhoods again, and not just Panther Island. 

We've all seen photos like this, and I believe that Fort Worth is a long way off being able to rely on transit alone, but It'd be nice to see the two working together.



#357 John T Roberts

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 09:07 PM

We need streetcars!



#358 Doohickie

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 11:04 PM

...and we coulda had 'em by now.  :(


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#359 Austin55

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 03:33 AM

Something interesting regarding the rumored Panther Island streetcar - The old master plan (posted to Flickr in 2010) and the overview of the promenade (posted 2014) both show what appears to be streetcar originating north of the courthouse running down the Paddock Viaduct all the way through the bulk of the island, doing a U-turn mid-block north of NE 7th street, where it merges onto Commerce back towards downtown, before merging back onto Main via NE 4th street. 

 

I've highlighted that here

 

NEccRts.jpg

 

If this is indeed the proposed route, it seems like a nice little starter. Of course, where it goes once it reaches the courthouse is a mystery... I'd bet that it will probably hit Weatherford and U turn back down main from there. Perhaps in the future it will be extended down Houston and Commerce. 



#360 Austin55

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 10:54 PM

I have no idea if it's worth noting but Near Southside's annual report (for the last two years at least, actually) still has a modern streetcar route listed on it. I'm not sure if it's a pie in the sky thing or an actual thing that is being worked on, but it's in there. The rest of the map is pretty meticulously updated, so I cant imagine this is in here by accicent. 

 

VzeXNWK.png



#361 Jeriat

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 06:13 AM

I have no idea if it's worth noting but Near Southside's annual report (for the last two years at least, actually) still has a modern streetcar route listed on it. I'm not sure if it's a pie in the sky thing or an actual thing that is being worked on, but it's in there. The rest of the map is pretty meticulously updated, so I cant imagine this is in here by accicent. 

 

VzeXNWK.png

 

Still going down Main St.

I'd assume it's more pie-in-the-sky at this moment, but I hope I'm wrong. I'd just rather the line run down another street. It's also goes east on Rosedale, but there's a cut down Main to Magnolia and up on 7th Avenue?


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#362 tamtagon

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 07:38 AM

Even before the new Arena, the only streetcar route I (personally) think is worth clamoring for connects Downtown and the Cultural District -- right down 7th. With all the big events the new Arena will host, the bright-idea to connect downtown hotels to the Cultural District is even better. 



#363 Electricron

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:15 AM

Even before the new Arena, the only streetcar route I (personally) think is worth clamoring for connects Downtown and the Cultural District -- right down 7th. With all the big events the new Arena will host, the bright-idea to connect downtown hotels to the Cultural District is even better.

There's a fatal flaw of placing streetcars onto 7th Street, it's the at grade crossing of 7th with the FWWR rail line. The FRA and FTA will never ever allow it. So, either the streetcar and 7th Street will have to be raised over the FWWR tracks, or the FWWR tracks will have to be raised over 7th Street and the streetcar. I'm thinking many will think the latter will be preferred, but it too has a major flaw.

At a 1% grade, a grade change of 20 feet requires reconstructing the FWWR line 2,000 feet north and another 2,000 feet south of 7th Street. Which means reconstructing the Lancaster bridge over the FWWR tracks as well.

Which brings us back to the former,, at least running the streetcar over the FWWR tracks on 7th. Assuming they use a 5% grade and the same 20 feet grade change, it'll require the viaduct to start 400 feet both east and west of the FWWR track, more than a block before reaching it. So we end up with a viaduct almost three blocks long, about 900 feet along 7th Street.

Which is why I keep suggesting placing the streetcar line on Lancaster instead. :)

#364 Jeriat

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:28 AM

 

Even before the new Arena, the only streetcar route I (personally) think is worth clamoring for connects Downtown and the Cultural District -- right down 7th. With all the big events the new Arena will host, the bright-idea to connect downtown hotels to the Cultural District is even better.

There's a fatal flaw of placing streetcars onto 7th Street, it's the at grade crossing of 7th with the FWWR rail line. The FRA and FTA will never ever allow it. So, either the streetcar and 7th Street will have to be raised over the FWWR tracks, or the FWWR tracks will have to be raised over 7th Street and the streetcar. I'm thinking the latter will be preferred, but who is going to pay for it?

At a 1% grade, a grade change of 20 feet requires reconstructing the FWWR line 2,000 feet north and another 2,000 feet south of 7th Street. Which means reconstructing the Lancaster bridge over the FWWR tracks as well.

Which is why I keep suggesting placing the streetcar line on Lancaster instead. :)

 

 Exactly.


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#365 AndyN

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:48 AM

There's a fatal flaw of placing streetcars onto 7th Street, it's the at grade crossing of 7th with the FWWR rail line. The FRA and FTA will never ever allow it.

 

Not true. 3 examples of streetcars crossing railroads at grade:

 

https://www.google.c...62!4d-90.049901

 

https://www.google.c...46!4d-82.445375

 

 

https://www.google.c...2590721!6m1!1e1


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#366 tamtagon

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:57 AM

Oh, doh!  You know, I had an incling that there was something about 7th, thanks for the reminder.... it's been a while.

 

Lancaster is just fine, I do like Lancaster better within the Cultural District, and unquestionably Lancaster works better with TRE, but I wasn't sure about the downtown interface...

 

If/when a streetcar makes it back to Fort Worth, the route would be incomplete until looping through the hospitals to the new stadium and up to Lancaster.... 



#367 Electricron

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:32 AM

There's a fatal flaw of placing streetcars onto 7th Street, it's the at grade crossing of 7th with the FWWR rail line. The FRA and FTA will never ever allow it.

 
Not true. 3 examples of streetcars crossing railroads at grade:
 
https://www.google.com/maps/place/35°09'29.0%22N+90%C2%B002'59.6%22W/@35.158062,-90.0504482,195m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d35.158062!4d-90.049901
 
https://www.google.com/maps/place/27°57'31.1%22N+82%C2%B026'43.4%22W/@27.958646,-82.4459222,210m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d27.958646!4d-82.445375
 
https://www.google.c...2590721!6m1!1e1
All three of your examples are of streetcars over industrial tracks where the freight trains maximum speed is 10 mph. FWWR trains over 7th Street run at faster speeds than 10 mph, and I'm not so sure the FWWR will want to place so low a speed limit on their trains. Maybe they will, maybe they won't? I'm suggesting they won't!

#368 AndyN

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:11 PM

I didn't see posted speed limits and the last time I operated the streetcar in Tampa, the freight train that crossed was going faster than 10 mph. The suggestion that it can't happen is false.


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#369 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 07:33 PM

I'd much rather see a streetcar run along West 7th Street than along Lancaster.


- Dylan


#370 Electricron

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 01:00 AM

I didn't see posted speed limits and the last time I operated the streetcar in Tampa, the freight train that crossed was going faster than 10 mph. The suggestion that it can't happen is false.

You might find the following article interesting....

http://www.tbo.com/n...reetcar--549496

"The TECO Line Streetcar System is paying a whopping $400,000 a year — more than a quarter of its annual budget — for liability insurance at a single CSX railroad crossing. The $100 million policy enables the streetcars to cross a track that eight freight and passenger trains use daily.

The expensive premium has so far cost more than $4 million and nearly drained the streetcar's $5 million endowment years earlier than planned. The strain the payment places on the budget was a major factor in last year's decision to run the streetcar less frequently, a move that contributed to a sharp decline in ridership.

And then there's this option, which CSX has suggested since the beginning: Get rid of the streetcar track and switch to tires, in essence becoming a bus that looks like a streetcar. At the onset, we suggested a rubber-tired option that could traverse established road crossings," Sease said. "HART was firm that it needed to be the trolley.''

 

It's not worth crossing the tracks, far better to have a grade separation. Who know what FWWR will ask for insurance coverage and how much it will cost yearly?



#371 renamerusk

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 06:25 AM

I think Lancaster/Montgomery.  A single line "tics off"  Lancaster Avenue Corridor, Summit Hill Area,  West 7th, Farrington, Museums, WRMC and the DA.



#372 AndyN

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 12:11 AM

Yes, in 2012 the insurance rate was pretty high. The line did some improvements to the interlocking signal system and was able to further reduce the cost of the insurance although I can not tell you what the current rate is.

 

After checking with the former superintendent of this line, I have learned that the CSX speed limit is 35. I couldn't tell you what the limit is on the FWWR, but long story short, streetcars can cross railroads and they do.


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#373 Volare

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 07:47 AM

Lancaster bridge is in need of replacement, and W7th bridge is obviously brand new. Seems like a no brainier that Lancaster is the place to cross the ditch.



#374 Thurman52

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 08:03 AM

They built 7th with streetcars in mind. Lancaster was closed and rebuilt before 7th it's not needing replacement.

#375 Jeriat

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 09:42 AM

Lancaster bridge is in need of replacement, and W7th bridge is obviously brand new. Seems like a no brainier that Lancaster is the place to cross the ditch.


Once again, agreed. It would be killing two birds with one stone.

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#376 Volare

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 05:32 PM

They built 7th with streetcars in mind. Lancaster was closed and rebuilt before 7th it's not needing replacement.

 

Lancaster was last rehabbed in 1999. It is rated functionally obsolete. The problem isn't the road surface, it's the structure.

 

"In 2009, the West Lancaster Avenue bridge over the Trinity River near downtown Fort Worth was shut down for several months after inspectors found deterioration on bearings that connected the bridge to the support structure. The work cost $603,000. The bridge, built in 1938-39, was last rehabilitated in 1999."

 



#377 rriojas71

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 06:17 PM

I would love it if they re-built the new bridge but had it look similar to a suspension bridge and then have some cool lighting along the cables.... Maybe even paint it a really fun color to stand out during the day.

I'm still debating if I'd prefer a single tower suspension or a double

#378 Austin55

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 08:04 PM

I love the industrial look of the Lancaster bridge. I hope it stays or is rebuilt as is.

#379 renamerusk

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 10:50 PM

They built 7th with streetcars in mind.....

 

 And add to that, that in my mind 7th Street is too crowded with car lanes, bike lanes.   7th Street could look so much like a Park Avenue if planter boxes were installed.  It would also become a chic-er street.

 

My conclusion; Lancaster is a better route for a streetcar; and the bridge is underappreciated.  All bridges in the City, for that matter,  are really viewed as an obscure afterthoughts.



#380 AndyN

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 11:47 PM

The streetcar will cross Paddock Viaduct before it crosses lancaster or 7th.


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#381 Austin55

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 12:09 AM

The streetcar will cross Paddock Viaduct before it crosses lancaster or 7th.

And I-30. A cultural district streetcar is third fiddle behind Panther Island and Southside. 



#382 Jeriat

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 08:46 AM

 

The streetcar will cross Paddock Viaduct before it crosses lancaster or 7th.

And I-30. A cultural district streetcar is third fiddle behind Panther Island and Southside. 

 

 

Speaking of which, I'm really warming up to using Henderson as the entry from downtown to Near South for rail more than the other main roads.


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#383 BlueMound

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 04:48 PM

'Rail-Less' train debuts in China
http://newatlas.com/...ss-train/49916/

#384 Doohickie

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 10:16 AM

Meh.  Fort Worth already has those.
 
spur-bus.jpg


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#385 BlueMound

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 10:28 AM

Meh.  Fort Worth already has those.
 spur-bus.jpg


Talk about Meh
That's just another ugly bus.

#386 JBB

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 10:30 AM

Northeast Mall in Hurst has a rail less train:

Picture+16.png

#387 Jeriat

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 11:00 AM

 

Meh.  Fort Worth already has those.
 spur-bus.jpg


Talk about Meh
That's just another ugly bus.

 

 

With more seats. 

But apparently, that's "progress", according to some of our city leaders...


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#388 Austin55

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 11:04 AM

Meh.  Fort Worth already has those.
 spur-bus.jpg

Talk about Meh
That's just another ugly bus.

And what's wrong with that? Busses are cheap, efficient and flexible ways for cities to provide mobility. Transit shouldn't be written off just because it's not sexy.

#389 BlueMound

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 01:55 PM

Sorry, but isn't this a thread that's titled Streetcars ?

#390 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 03:08 PM

'Rail-Less' train debuts in China
http://newatlas.com/...ss-train/49916/

 

Meh.  Fort Worth already has those.

 

No, we do not have anything like what China just announced.

 

Our SPUR busses act just like normal busses, except they're extra long and can change lights.

 

What BlueMound just posted is a bus that acts like a streetcar. You enter through automatic doors from a level boarding platform (hopefully one with a ticket machine), and do not encounter the driver.

 

It looks like China's vehicle also has computers to follow a specific path (drivers don't steer it), though I doubt many people would care about that.


- Dylan


#391 Austin55

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 03:17 PM

Reading responses on urban and transit planning forums, it sounds like the Chinese bus's biggest issue is the wheels could destroy pavement, which streetcars wont do because the tracks and roadbed are built to handle the weight, and busses wont do because they are lighter. I'm skeptical this is anything revolutionary, but we shall see. 



#392 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 05:10 PM

Haven't considered the weight of tires on pavement, but given how difficult it is to fund and build streetcar rails, purchasing these vehicles and running them on existing pavement could be a viable option for us.


- Dylan


#393 Jeriat

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 05:25 PM

You know... I may not have a problem with "railless" streetcars...

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